Same-Sex Marriage In Thailand

[ChrisP]

If Thailand is so Gay Friendly, then why doesn't it offer the possibility of Same-Sex Marriage, or even a Registered Domestic Partnership. It seems to be falling behind.

Countries that permit same-sex marriage:

* The Netherlands

* Belgium

* Canada

* England UK

Countries with Registered Domestic Partnerships:

* Canada (part)

* Denmark

* Finland

* France

* Germany

* Iceland

* Norway

* Spain

* Sweden

* Switzerland

* USA - California

ChrisP

[mrmnp]

ChrisP, with your permission, I include the following from another thread as it is very pertinent to any Thai law change. Quote:

I may have finally learned what Jeepz has been trying to teach me by his persuasive posts, a form of "civil union" might be the answer to the now very hot political and religious debate in the United States.

I am also posting this reply in the companion thread on same-sex mariage as it is relevent there as well.

To satisfy the political and civil rights objections to the status of the marriage law currently in effect in all united states other that Massachusetts, as Jeepz has suggested, a term must be selected to describe a "union" between two people of any gender recognized by law. He suggests "civil union", but would you then describe yourself as "unionized". Gays appropriated their descriptive word, perhaps the labor unions could live with it. Better we come up with a more salubrious term to describe those persons who choose to have their union recognized by the law. with all the attendent benefits flowing therefrom.

The term "marriage" is used more than a thousand times in the current laws and a rational and practical person would say use that word, but I am sure dear Jeepz would say that is not the best "political" approach. So I propose the following, which I presuppose falls in line with Jeepz's point of view.

Change the present law simply by a one line definition change ie.

"FIRSTLY: Henceforth, the word mariage is stricken from all existing laws presently in force and the word "significant other" (or your choice of words) be substituted therefore, forthwith.

SECONDLY: All persons making proper application for "significant other" status and havining complied with all the requirements prescribed herein, shall be so included."

Under this plan, Churches can continue using the word "marriage" to decribe their joing ceremonies and same-sex couples can still have their "significant other" status recognized by the church of their choice.

While this "solution" to the same-sex dispute is efficatious, legal and just, it will not be possible until the majority recognizes they are losing nothing, that church dogma has no place in the law of the land and that same-sex couples have the right to equality under the law.

[phayao]

Countries that permit same-sex marriage:

* The Netherlands

* Belgium

* Canada (parts)

Countries with Registered Domestic Partnerships:

* Canada (part)

* Denmark

* Finland

* France

* Germany

* Iceland

* Norway

* Spain

* Sweden

* Switzerland

* USA - California

ChrisP

Let me tell you that from 1st July 2006 same-sex marriage (not "civil union") is legal to all efects in the Kingdom of Spain.

There are no restrictions whatsoever regarding tax benefits, inheritance, social security, housing, adoption, nationality or divorce. Not like countries that "permit" same-sex unions, where there are some restrictions, mainly towards adoption.

Two men or two women of any nationality may get married in Spain.

[wcr]

If Thailand is so Gay Friendly, then why doesn't it offer the possibility of Same-Sex Marriage, or even a Registered Domestic Partnership. It seems to be falling behind.

Countries with Registered Domestic Partnerships:

* Canada (part)

* Denmark

* Finland

* France

* Germany

* Iceland

* Norway

* Spain

* Sweden

* Switzerland

* USA - California

ChrisP

Don't forget the UK too!!!

[Guest endure]

I don't understand the farang desire to change Thailand into a facsimile of the west. If you want to get 'married' there are now plenty of western countries where you can. Thailand is gay friendly because it's Thailand. There's been another thread running in the gay forum pointing out that Thais are now becoming much more picky as to the age range of people they're willing to date. This is an import of western ideas too. If you keep importing western mores into Thailand you'll finish up living in the west.

[PeaceBlondie]

Agreeing with Endure's last post.....marriage is a failed institution, developed by heteros to ensure the raising of children, and ensuring that a man knew who his heirs were. Marriage has been so poorly controlled by both religion and government, that we need to find a better framework, so let's not call it marriage. Especially, since the heteros who make up 90% of the voting base think that marriage is one man, one woman.

Yes, Thailand is changing its culture fast, with few of those changes caused by us farang who live here. Also, I doubt that Thailand is pro-gay; it's just tolerant or passive-agressive about certain things.

[jdinasia]

Hmmm I am not sure I agree with any of Endure's post this time (and I often agree with him)

As for marraige/civil unions here. I see it as highly unlikely. Foriegn women that marry Thai men get benefits not accorded to foriegn men that marry Thai women. Gay's are accepted here quite freely but that level of acceptance is pretty much surface level in the big cities. I can't answer what it's like anywhere other than BKK, Hua Hin, and other touristed places. Though we've never had any problems travelling anywhere in Thailand.

As for Age, I don't think things are actually changing as much as some people think ... Other than some guys are less polite about being hit on by guys that could be their grandfathers. (truly no offense meant there), My friends run the full range of truly liking older westerners to basically only liking guys around thier own age. It's been that way over the last 9 years.

I do think there is a phenomenon that IS emerging here more and more ... and that is an emerging gay middle-class that is actually Out. These guys do remind me more and more of my friends back home. But I would attribute this more to the emerging status of a gay middle class than anything else.

I expect that this middle class will eventually make some real changes to Thai culture as they start to be more "out" in situations where executives etc have traditionally stayed closeted in Thailand.

[Steve2UK]

Agreeing with Endure's last post.....marriage is a failed institution, developed by heteros to ensure the raising of children, and ensuring that a man knew who his heirs were. Marriage has been so poorly controlled by both religion and government, that we need to find a better framework, so let's not call it marriage. Especially, since the heteros who make up 90% of the voting base think that marriage is one man, one woman.

Yes, Thailand is changing its culture fast, with few of those changes caused by us farang who live here. Also, I doubt that Thailand is pro-gay; it's just tolerant or passive-agressive about certain things.

Until the UK's recently-introduced civil partnership law for same-sex couples, when one partner died, the surviving partner (in the absence of a will) could be left in a legal limbo and cut out completely. As I understand it, the new UK law grants the surviving partner the same benefit rights and protections as if he/she were husband/wife. Whatever our opinion of "traditional" i.e. straight marriage as a family-making institution, surely that's a significant step forward?

Fair to say, I'm not familiar with the ins and outs of Thai law relating to the rights of a surviving husband/wife, but I'd instinctively like to have the same rights for my partnership. Interesting thought (IMO): one of the reasons for the UK introducing same-sex civil partnerships (as opposed to same-sex marriage) was that it inherently kept religion out of it - yet it's very straightforward in LOS to have your same-sex partnership blessed by a monk..............

Edited February 28, 2006 by Steve2UK

[jdinasia]

Steve ... I've never considered not having a will etc. when involved in a real LTR ... including partnership papers on real estate etc.

which reminds me ... gotta do some research about power of attny for medical etc here in Thailand!

and official legal marraige here is strictly civil!

Edited February 28, 2006 by jdinasia

[Steve2UK]

Steve ... I've never considered not having a will etc. when involved in a real LTR ... including partnership papers on real estate etc.

JD - I think the same way. I'm not in that situation currently, but I expect to make that same kind of provision as and when I am.

(Now let's see how long it takes to get all the posts pointing out that we're reducing our life expectancy by handing that kind of power/tempation to a Thai partner....... )

[Guest endure]

Agreeing with Endure's last post.....marriage is a failed institution, developed by heteros to ensure the raising of children, and ensuring that a man knew who his heirs were.

Originally marriage was a device used to pass power and property (including wives) between families. I don't know when 'romance' came into the picture but I don't think it's all that long ago.

[BambinA]

Should Thailand offer Same-Sex Marriage?

Should Thailand offer Same-Sex Domestic Partnerships?

both are ok ..(better than nothing)

but may be you guys need to wait.. but not that long (ok u will be getting older..but dont die yet)

u paid for tax as straight

u'd be treated the same as em ..

[Ijustwannateach]

I'm personally not so impressed by the institution of marriage, either- but fair's fair and it would nice to have to option....

*however*.... it's the thought of getting tied up in the craziness that *divorce* can sometimes be that makes me shiver... you don't get laws for one without laws for the other, after all...

"Steven"

[ProThaiExpat]

I still have qualms about "marriage" after a bitter divorce 35 years ago.

Thailand could easily accomodate, in this area, by giving "full force and effect" to foreign legal marriages between same sex couples as they do to opposite sex couples.

Why should a falang, who is in a committed long term relationship with a Thai, a common law marriage, if that term convinces, be required to put up twice as much money to qualify for long stay than an opposite sex couple? Especially, if he has gone overseas to be legally married to his Thai in a country that permits this.

I sure wouldn't want to be the first falang who shows up at immigration with a same sex marriage certificate in hand and try to qualify for a "long stay based on marriage to a Thai". Even if the name on the certificate was ambiguous, later found out might involve jail time for perpetrating a fraud on immigration.

[jdinasia]

Is no one going to address the gender disparity statement I made above? I think that pretty well will exclude the recognition of same-sex marraige in Thailand in the foreseeable future.

"As for marraige/civil unions here. I see it as highly unlikely. Foriegn women that marry Thai men get benefits not accorded to foriegn men that marry Thai women. "

(man ... resorting to quoting myself ... I am sinking so low"

[ChrisP]

^ I had no idea that there's a disparity in benefits... Can you be more specific..?

ChrisP

[phayao]

^ I had no idea that there's a disparity in benefits... Can you be more specific..?

ChrisP

Yes. In Spain when a married couple declare their income tax together as a "family unit" have a better rate than declaring and paying separatly. Thus two men or two women married are now leveled with hetero couples.

I think Spain is the only country in the world at the moment with marriage (not civil union) for hetero or homo couples alike with the SAME rights (and duties).

It was very simple: they just changed a few words in the Civil Code (Book 1, title 4, capter 2, paragraph 44). Where it said that marriage was a union between "a man and a woman", now it is said "two persons of the same or different sex".

As simple as that.

I don't forsee Thailand doing this in our lifetime.

[ProThaiExpat]

Phayao: Do you know if Canada and the Netherlands, for instances, that allow gay marriage but not tax equality?

[ChrisP]

"As for marraige/civil unions here. I see it as highly unlikely. Foriegn women that marry Thai men get benefits not accorded to foriegn men that marry Thai women. "

In my post above I was actually referring to the disparity in Thailand.. as shown by the quote.

What exactly are the difference in benefits mentioned above..?

ChrisP

[AlexLah]

Hi all,

So suppose I meet a nice Trangender lady and I want to marry her.

I am living in Thailand.

Just go to the (Dutch) embassy and register our relationship?

How does it work?

Kind regards,

Alex

[cdnvic]

If Thailand is so Gay Friendly, then why doesn't it offer the possibility of Same-Sex Marriage, or even a Registered Domestic Partnership. It seems to be falling behind.

Countries that permit same-sex marriage:

* The Netherlands

* Belgium

* Canada (parts)

Countries with Registered Domestic Partnerships:

* Canada (part)

* Denmark

* England

* Finland

* France

* Germany

* Iceland

* Norway

* Spain

* Sweden

* Switzerland

* USA - California

ChrisP

As of June/05 it is recognised nationally in Canada.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/20...esex050628.html

Prior to this they were still given equal treatment in taxation as common law couples, and had full rights to adopt children. It's just that "M word" that seems to have drawn some opposition.

cv

[BambinA]

Hi all,

So suppose I meet a nice Trangender lady and I want to marry her.

I am living in Thailand.

Just go to the (Dutch) embassy and register our relationship?

How does it work?

Kind regards,

Alex

hahahha

hahahah

hahhaha

hahahh

come back to real life

bangkapiboy

this one? alexlah??

haha

[TopChinese]

Hi all,

So suppose I meet a nice Trangender lady and I want to marry her.

I am living in Thailand.

Just go to the (Dutch) embassy and register our relationship?

How does it work?

Kind regards,

Alex

It all depends on Dutch law. Dutch law may permit marriages between a Dutch national and a foreigner overseas. It may also recognised the new gender of a post-operation male to female transsexual unlike Thai law. Best place is to ask the embassy.

On another note, here's yet another way how the Singapore-Thailand alliance has progressed beyond Shin Corp and Temasek. This happy Thai-Singaporean couple are publicly holding a commitment ceremony in Singapore. Even tho sodomy is still illegal here...

http://newpaper.asia1.com.sg/show/story/0,...,103376,00.html?

See.. DJ station romances CAN work!!

[AlexLah]

Hi all,

So suppose I meet a nice Trangender lady and I want to marry her.

I am living in Thailand.

Just go to the (Dutch) embassy and register our relationship?

How does it work?

Kind regards,

Alex

hahahha

hahahah

hahhaha

hahahh

come back to real life

bangkapiboy

this one? alexlah??

haha

You are trying to be funny March?

I know you have to get your 20 mails each day but please make them constructive OK?

Kind regards

Alex

[Zappadappa]

it's not about the sanctity of marraige as it is about the public proclamation of love and equal rights under law.

Allow same sex couples these rights then u can call what u want,marriage ,union etc etc

[nongkhai]

Phayao: Do you know if Canada and the Netherlands, for instances, that allow gay marriage but not tax equality?

Can only speak about Canada here: same sex marriage in Canada is exactly the same as straight marriage . . . all of the tax advantages (and vise versa), inheritance issues, divorce regulations etc etc of marriage apply, as does every single 'right' that straight marriages collect. The marriage law in Canada is 100% blind to 'straightness' or gayness'.

When the government pushed through the same sex provisions within the Marriage Act they went whole hog, getting it over and done with. There was a national debate on this which was ongoing for some years ( and got acrimonious at times, but Canadian-style ), but after all was said and done the government of the day ~ to their credit ~ ended up with a very strong law, and the country seems to have gone on with other more important things.

One proviso ... specific church denominations in Canada are allowed by law to decide not to marry same sex couples. If that happens then the happy couple can trundle over to the next (more liberal?) church of their choice, or waltze into any courthouse in the land.

Cheers ...

[ProThaiExpat]

Thank you Nongkhai. It is a credit to the PM of Canada at the time that when he was addressing the legislatures, he admonished them that it was their job to act when there was a "tyranny of the majority" in civil rights issues.

It is a shame that other governments and world leaders don't take similar stands, since by definition, civil rights is about monority rights, not majority rights and it is the "tyranny of the majority" that is the major obstacle to equal righs for all.

Thus, the bigots and religionists in the U.S. are rushing to get state constitutional ammendments in place while they still have a majority of voters against same sex marriage. In 20 years, it will be the other way around but it is a lot harder to throw out a prejudicial constitutonal ammendment than to enact one.

[peekint]

A bit late, but wanted to get my 1 saleung in.

Tom and I were married in San Francisco in 2004. But, of course, it was annulled. We're planning our next trip back to do it again, this time hoping it will stick. Obviously, we like the idea of being married, so as you read below you'll understand my point of view.

In Thailand, marriage is a relatively new concept, dating from the 1930s in the legal framework. Why? Because marriage in Thailand is not a religious institution. It is a purely legal one established for political, economic and social control. Buddhism, per se, has no institution of marriage, though some of the traditional rituals have been adapted for use in marriage (like the roughly translated life-long-friend ritual). These rituals are freely available to same-sex couples at just about every wat in the country.

So, although there is likely to be some religious opposition, particular from the Thai Chinese and Christianized Thais, the fundamental objection to gay marriage in Thailand will be a social control objection, masking a hidden agenda.

One of the other posters referred to the disparity between rights between foreign male and female spouses. The reasons for this disparity are likely to be the same reasons that gay marriage in Thailand is an uphill battle. Difficult to confront directly, these objections are tacit, unspoken. Preserve the existing family-controlled power structure (with the same families), preserve the dominance of men in the power structure, prevent cultural evolution which would enable people to question or challenge the current power structure.

Views like those expressed in the "endure guest post" at the beginning of the thread are extremely useful to the folks who aim to preserve the current method of social control - preserve a ruling elite supported by a large poor, indebted class. (You can see the evolution of this same sort of structure arising in the USA - but that's for another day's thread)

What are the mantras used to excite the populace and generate support? Prevent the importation of western ideas in general to preserve cultural purity! No GAY MARRIAGE - it's a western concept (of course, we all know it isn't; it was first practiced in China over 1000 years ago)! No QUESTIONING AUTHORITY! No CRITICAL THINKING! Prevent pollution of the masses by inappropriately inquisitive education using western methods!

And who benefits from all this? The folks who maintain power. Further, whenever the folks who maintain power benefit from western technology, finance, or culture, they maintain control of it rather than pass its benefits on to the people. Sell lots of machinery to farmers; loan them lots of money to buy it; oh, but send my kids overseas for their university education.

If Gay Marriage doesn't happen in Thailand, it will be for these reasons, not any other. Gay marriage opens up the possibility of change in the social structure, a structure preserved principally to keep the ruling elite empowered.

That said, I think Gay Marriage would be a good thing for Thailand. I've written too much already. I just ask you to consider the effects on tourism and international image at a time when both are waning for Thailand. I think it would be a winner . That's for the people, not for the elite. Like USA Vice President Dick Chaney's lesbian daughter, her wife, and her baby, the elite can always do what they want. Control is for the rest of us.

oh,oh - one last comment. Some poster mentioned that he thought the acceptance of Gay people in Thailand was just on the surface. I beg to differ. My partner and I find no more welcoming place than the rural towns and villages we frequent in the North. We go as a couple, we live as a couple, and we're accepted as a couple. At our local temple, the head monk even uses my spouse's surname for me when a surname is called for, and introduces us to other monks and visitors as a couple. Its all very natural; we are treated just like every other couple in the village - in language, custom, and ritual. It's really the way I hope the whole world can be some day.

That's not to say that, based on individual lifestyles, individuals find different levels of acceptance. That's normal in the world, something we learn to adjust to every day. No one is liked or loved by everyone everywhere. Never has been, never will be.