Bangkok: Makkasan, Chong Nonsi land talks begin

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Makkasan, Chong Nonsi land talks begin today
Suphannee Pootpisut
The Nation



Finance, transport ministries to discuss long-term lease of two SRT plots

BANGKOK: -- The Ministries of Finance and Transport will today start negotiations on the long-term lease of the State Railway of Thailand’s two land plots in Bangkok, including the 490-rai area in Makkasan.

Treasury Department director-general Naris Chaiyasoot said land measurement for the Makkasan plot was complete, while those for the river-front 270-rai plot in Chong Nonsi will start soon. He said the Makkasan plot showed greater commercial potential; while the other contained development limitations - it is located in a densely populated area and near a military safety zone, with a narrow entrance from the main road.

The Makkasan plot would entail huge investment, Naris said. Any government project valued above Bt1 billion and awarded to private companies must come under the Public-Private Joint Venture Act. SRT's land in the area encompasses a total of 700 rai, but some now houses the Airport Rail Link.

"It could be turned into a shopping complex, a concert hall, a bus station, a hospital and a residential complex," Naris said. He added that, as proposed by Finance Minister Kittiratt Na-Ranong, some space might be turned into public facilities like a park, a sport stadium or a museum.

The department will evaluate the land prices and development costs. Then, the Public Debt Management Office and the State Enterprise Policy Office will determine the leasing terms and cost, which would be used to partially relieve the SRT's debt. Upon the Cabinet's approval, the Treasury Department is ready to launch the development.

"Any revenue will be sent to the Finance Ministry to relieve the SRT’s debt. The minister said it's like moving money from one pocket to another. But then, there should be some extra revenue and this should give SRT breathing space while it improves its [financial] condition," he said.

Naris is looking for a 50-year leasing term, plus a 50-year renewable period. SRT is saddled with some Bt100 billion in debt, created by operating losses, equipment acquisitions, financial loans for the Airport Rail Link project, and pension burden. It will be decided which part of the debt would be settled by the leasing deal.


-- The Nation 2013-11-04

[PhilipCook]

Tobacco Factory land could be turned into a park as was the plan.

[Lakegeneve]

Tobacco Factory land could be turned into a park as was the plan.

That is still happening once the new TTM facility is finished in Ayuthaya in a few years. However, this is nothing to do with the TTM land.

This is the plan for the TTM land and future 'urban forest' as is it called;

[Lakegeneve]

The Makkasan Railyard Redevelopment has been in the works for over 10+ years. Back then the plan was to build a new mini city with 4 100+ storey office buildings as landmarks!! Shopping centers and condos, little open space.

Since then the concept plan has been reworked a few times. There is a big community debate raging about ensuring that at least 30% of the Makkasan redevelopment is kept as open space, a green lung for inner Bangkok. The different zones of the redevelopment are planned to be linked by a loop monorail connecting with Makkasan station & thus the MRT

The current concept plan is this;

You can see the Airport Rail Link Terminal (CAT) at Makkasan at the far east side. People think that it was overbuilt and is a waste but that don't understand that in the future it will be a major transport hub for what will be a busy area. For that reason it is a suitable size.

[jpeg]

The first drawing was best but won't happen. Every single bloody millimetre of space is for money making, from hotels to condos to office blocks and if there is any 'green space' left, it will be occupied hoards of somtam/fried chicken vendors. Just look at Bangkok! ONE park (don't count Sanam Luang). ONE! Look at an aerial photo of London, greenest city in Europe, possibly the World. And London is by no means averse to making money, but do use intelligence in designing their urban environment.

A local council here on 'green(er)' Phuket wanted to build an exercise park/running track, - no land owner would part with 'their' unused land. Selfish bastards.

[PhilipCook]

Lakegeneve, good info. My point was that instead of promising some park at Makkasan which is more of a transit point, better to keep their promise to make the TTM into a park. Benjakitti park is nice but adding the rest of the TTM land would make it a great park. Admittedly the TTM land is nice now for a stroll except for motorcycles, cars angry dogs roaming through it.

[Lakegeneve]

Lakegeneve, good info. My point was that instead of promising some park at Makkasan which is more of a transit point, better to keep their promise to make the TTM into a park. Benjakitti park is nice but adding the rest of the TTM land would make it a great park. Admittedly the TTM land is nice now for a stroll except for motorcycles, cars angry dogs roaming through it.

The projects are completely unrelated. The TTM is being turned into a larger park, 'urban forest' regardless of what happens at Makkasan. It is a not either or scenario.

However, more green space at Makkasan would only benefit a city that has too few parks and open recreational space. The obvious contest is that developers see the potential profits at Makkasan with projected land prices already speculated to go up from 600k per wai to 1.5m per rai for this land. That would make it some of the most expensive land in inner Bangkok.

The SRT has loads of land (some 250k of rai) in the country and one of the reasons is is so indebted is that companies such as Central or PTT were for decades leasing land at way below market rates. The BMA had Chatujak markets for under 50m a year lease when they were taking in over 1.2 billion baht! Finally, the SRT is getting some commercial value out of their land and they need to do that here whilst ensuring sufficient green space for the public.

The Makkasan Redevelopment offers a great potential if done right to have a large mixed use urban space that is well designed. Doing it right is probably a less than 30% chance but we have to wait and see...

[kotsak]

Anyone knows where is the plot located in Chong Nonsi? They say it's riverfront so I am suspecting somewhere along Rama 3?

[Lakegeneve]

Anyone knows where is the plot located in Chong Nonsi? They say it's riverfront so I am suspecting somewhere along Rama 3?

The Chong Nonsi land on the river - south of the old Mae Nam station - is actually used by the army as an strategic oil depot with a small refinery there too I believe.

If you look at a map where Rama 3 and the Chalerm Expressway intersect, it is directly south of that. You can see dozens of oil tanks.

[Lakegeneve]

This should work, click on the map and it will show the sat map

https://maps.google.co.th/maps/place?ie=UTF-8&q=mae+nam+station&fb=1&gl=th&hq=mae+nam+station&hnear=0x311d6032280d61f3:0x36458563858b0fc7,Bangkok&cid=0,0,13998926165480455418

[tomross46]

Tobacco Factory land could be turned into a park as was the plan.

Yes it was planned, but the new mew members of the Board of Directors did not get any money. Thailand is one of the largest supporters of lung cancer elimination, but the government is the largest manufacturer of tobacco products in Thailand. Is it two faced or two tonged, line the river monitor lizard.

[kotsak]

Lakegeneve, on 04 Nov 2013 - 15:44, said:

kotsak, on 04 Nov 2013 - 15:39, said:

Anyone knows where is the plot located in Chong Nonsi? They say it's riverfront so I am suspecting somewhere along Rama 3?

The Chong Nonsi land on the river - south of the old Mae Nam station - is actually used by the army as an strategic oil depot with a small refinery there too I believe.

If you look at a map where Rama 3 and the Chalerm Expressway intersect, it is directly south of that. You can see dozens of oil tanks.

Ah ok, I see. I live nearby so I was wondering if it's a plot closer to my place. Luckily it's not.

Thanks..

[straycat911]

My home isright on the edge of that, a tually pzrt of the plans, now i have to find new home

Sent from my GT-P5100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[straycat911]

Sorry about my spelling,

Sent from my GT-P5100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[planr]

Lakegeneve, good info. My point was that instead of promising some park at Makkasan which is more of a transit point, better to keep their promise to make the TTM into a park. Benjakitti park is nice but adding the rest of the TTM land would make it a great park. Admittedly the TTM land is nice now for a stroll except for motorcycles, cars angry dogs roaming through it.

However, more green space at Makkasan would only benefit a city that has too few parks and open recreational space. The obvious contest is that developers see the potential profits at Makkasan with projected land prices already speculated to go up from 600k per wai to 1.5m per rai for this land. That would make it some of the most expensive land in inner Bangkok.

The Makkasan Redevelopment offers a great potential if done right to have a large mixed use urban space that is well designed. Doing it right is probably a less than 30% chance but we have to wait and see...

Makkasan won't go for 1.5m per rai for quite some time even if it goes on the market sooner rather than later. Reason being is that it is leasehold land which means that condos (except ultra-luxury) will be a very difficult sell, and Bangkok currently has no need for massive office/retail/hotel construction in the short and even medium term. In the long term, say if a 20-30 year master plan is drafted to drive development in the area, it could turn into a great mixed-use area, particularly if a large share is reserved for green space as you say.

[teatree]

The Makkasan Railyard Redevelopment has been in the works for over 10+ years. Back then the plan was to build a new mini city with 4 100+ storey office buildings as landmarks!! Shopping centers and condos, little open space.

Since then the concept plan has been reworked a few times. There is a big community debate raging about ensuring that at least 30% of the Makkasan redevelopment is kept as open space, a green lung for inner Bangkok. The different zones of the redevelopment are planned to be linked by a loop monorail connecting with Makkasan station & thus the MRT

The current concept plan is this;

You can see the Airport Rail Link Terminal (CAT) at Makkasan at the far east side. People think that it was overbuilt and is a waste but that don't understand that in the future it will be a major transport hub for what will be a busy area. For that reason it is a suitable size.

People do understand that in 10..20..30 years the Makkasan building may well be needed.

They also understand that the building in not in any way needed now or in the short term.

And they further understand that a basic ARL station could easily have been built to begin with and then extended when needed.

The resources used to build and maintain Makkasan could have gone towards solving problems that exist right here and now (more rolling stock to reduce overcrowding for example) rather than some estimated need in 20 years or more.

Makkasan must cost a substantial amount just to maintain. Imagine how much electricity is used to air condition that huge space. And all because there may be a need for a building that size at some unknown time in the future. It is not logical.

[Lakegeneve]

The Makkasan Railyard Redevelopment has been in the works for over 10+ years. Back then the plan was to build a new mini city with 4 100+ storey office buildings as landmarks!! Shopping centers and condos, little open space.

Since then the concept plan has been reworked a few times. There is a big community debate raging about ensuring that at least 30% of the Makkasan redevelopment is kept as open space, a green lung for inner Bangkok. The different zones of the redevelopment are planned to be linked by a loop monorail connecting with Makkasan station & thus the MRT

The current concept plan is this;

You can see the Airport Rail Link Terminal (CAT) at Makkasan at the far east side. People think that it was overbuilt and is a waste but that don't understand that in the future it will be a major transport hub for what will be a busy area. For that reason it is a suitable size.

People do understand that in 10..20..30 years the Makkasan building may well be needed.

They also understand that the building in not in any way needed now or in the short term.

And they further understand that a basic ARL station could easily have been built to begin with and then extended when needed.

The resources used to build and maintain Makkasan could have gone towards solving problems that exist right here and now (more rolling stock to reduce overcrowding for example) rather than some estimated need in 20 years or more.

Makkasan must cost a substantial amount just to maintain. Imagine how much electricity is used to air condition that huge space. And all because there may be a need for a building that size at some unknown time in the future. It is not logical.

With respect, your first sentence is completely incorrect when one reviews comments regarding the CAT in various TV threads, 90% of which question why the CAT is so large, the term "white elephant" is often used. Just peruse the ARL thread in the Swamp sub-forum.

Also, your 2nd sentence is also incorrect to the degree (the CAT opened in 2010 remember) that the fact is had the Dems won the election in 2011 then the Rayong HSR line would already be under construction with a timetable of opening in 2015 - no doubt with a delay.

As it is the PT reviewed the HSR line plans for over a year, essentially went with the same plans but made the North & NE lines their priority. Currently, the Rayong HSR line is said to be done by 2017. So even your 10 yr time frame is way out of date let alone your 20 or 30 yr timeframe as with your idea Makkasan would not be built in time for the HSR line opening! Definitely not "some unknown time in the future".

Your 4th sentence displays an ignorance about who does what and is also completely flawed, without any logic. It is not possible for resources that were being used to build the CAT to go towards purchasing extra rolling stock to alleviate current overcrowding when the line had not even opened!!! The procurement of rolling stock was based on pax projections based on a flawed operational assumption relying on Expresses services. Yes, that is worthy of criticism.

Essentially, for this assertion to have any sound logic or reality , it would mean that the SRT knew prior to the opening of the ARL that their consultant contracted business plan was already flawed and that pax numbers would be much greater than projected, especially on the Cityline.

An insight that would show the future before it even opened! My how every business person, lottery player and transport operator would love that ability!!

As for the proposition of building a small station then increasing the size later. We can see with the new airport what occurs when capacity is not built ahead of time to meet increasing demand. The delays in implementing Phase 2 & Phase 3 has lead to significant overcrowding. Phase 2 should have been started soon after the airport opened. In the same vein, better to have the larger capacity for the CAT ahead of future needs than belatedly after the event. Also, most likely the overall long term costs would be much greater to build a larger terminal at a later date given increased construction and labour costs added with inflation. So even with the wasted electricity, I suspect a quick calculation would show a greatly cheaper cost in opening it in 2010 than 2020 or later as you suggest.

We see similar problems with capacity problems currently with many BTS stations such as Sala Daeng, Victory, Sukhumvit and MRT stations such as Rama 9 or Asoke. This only 14 or 10 yrs after they opened! Some of that can be dealt with by increased train frequency & capacity but most of the problems related to entrances and exits around the ticket barriers and stations. Problems that will require significant cost to resolve - esp for the BTS stations.

I completely agree with the wastage of cost regarding electricity and maintenance. The terminal is not being well utilised, there is much wasted space (though ideal for the current HSR PR exhibition) and there are many design flaws. All of which have been previously critiqued in the above mentioned ARL thread so pls do fell free to add to that discussion.

Finally, the dysfunctional reality of transport planning - the lack of - in BKK. 95% of the time infrastructure is built in a manner which lacks integration & coordination with other infrastructure. It is completed late nearly all of the time. Often it opens and soon fills to capacity. Usually, it subsequently requires to be re engineered or expanded in some way. Be it a road, a metro, an airport, a bridge, ferry jetties or a pedestrian link. That is the usual reality.

Your complaint is that for once something was actually built large enough to accommodate future growth ahead of time! Most ironic in the BKK context.

[Lakegeneve]

My home isright on the edge of that, a tually pzrt of the plans, now i have to find new home

Sent from my GT-P5100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Personally, I couldn't live near a bunch of oil storage tanks anywhere in the world let alone BKK!

Call me crazy but living adjacent to the junction of two major /expressways/highways, oil storage tanks and BKK's biggest slum area with the amount of drug trafficking taking place there would deter me. It must make for some interesting dinner party stories though....