Current Settlement Visa appeal process?

[MaiChai]

The wife has just been refused a settlement visa. The ECO says we didn't provide enough relationship evidence and the speaking part of the bulats test is missing. The annoying thing is that they didn't bother getting in touch for further information and they granted my wife a visit visa last year where we bent over backwards to provide relationship information then, and they did not bother to cross reference that.

So the question is how do we appeal, in the hope that we can provide enough evidence to persuade the ECM to overturn their decision? Do we appeal in Bangkok or do I send everything to the UK as on the website? I would have though applying in Thailand would be a more efficient process? We have the IAFT-2 forms, etc. We have lots of evidence of our relationship (first met in 2007) and I am sure we can work out what went wrong with the bulats testing and fix that (her English is quite good; spoken and written).

I really get the impression it was rushed to hit the 12 week processing time targets. I put alot of effort into collecting all the information required and am very disappointed that they did not cross reference the visit visa granted last year or get in touch for further info. If my wife wished to stay in the UK illegally she would not have returned to Thailand and we would not have spent 900 quid on a settlement visa so why deny now (note: we are professional law abiding folks not in the habit of breaking the law)?

Apologies if this has been answered recently, but I did a search which seemed to return information a couple of years old. I really want to get up to date info. Many thanks in advance.

[MaiChai]

I think this probably answers my question: http://ukimmigrationspecialist.com/2012/08/17/immigration-appeals-timelines/

So I would be looking at 6 weeks or so for a review, while a new applications would take another 12 weeks? Any thoughts/experiences from anyone?

[wooloomooloo]

Without knowing the detail of the refusal, we've only your theory that it was a rush job to go on.

Each application for a visa should be treated as for the first and no cutting corners. There is no cross-referencing other than your wife arrived and departed as planned on previous visits.

Notwithstanding, your wife has been refused settlement and you both require to address the reasons for refusal.

It might be wise to seek quality legal advice and proceed from there.

[MaiChai]

Its pretty clear from the refusal: insufficient evidence of the relationship. I supposed I focused too much on the financial support documentation required and neglected the relationship documentation. I have my own business, so there was alot of documentation required for this. The amount of documentation required is alot, and since we are already married and she had stayed with me in the UK last year, I obviously did not cover every angle that they could refuse on. They seemed to think we may have not even met, even though I sponsored her visit visa! What gives them that idea I don't know. Its not like Thailand has arranged marriages!

Anyhow, I think we have two choices: reapply with the missing documentation or appeal with the missing documentation.

I need to look at the original bulat documentation as I don't understand why we are missing the speaking test. Will look at this tomorrow with my wife.

I just wanted to confirm the process for appeal and how long it takes for the ECM to review it.

There is no reason why they should refuse as we have been together since 2007 and we have have been through alot together (fighting a court case in Thailand, she had been quite sick at one point almost dieing, she looked after my children for 6 months and still assists them, etc). Our relationship has had its highs and lows and we come through it all and still want to be together; thats what marriage is about. I guess I didn't cover every angle they could refuse on.

Edited November 9, 2013 by MaiChai

[wooloomooloo]

Post the refusal and the resident experts will give you are far better understanding rather than the conjecture.

[MaiChai]

Here is the refusal:

You have applied to join your husband xxx in the UK.

From the details of your application, you state that on you were married to your sponsor (xxx) in Town Hall in the North in the UK on 14/1/13 and you have included a copy of your marriage certificate to evidence this.

You have stated that you have known your sponsor since Feb 2007 when you met in Bangkok, Thailand and that a relationship started around the same time.

You state in your application that you keep in touch by phone and internet however no evidence has been forthcoming to demonstrate regular contact with your sponsor over the period of your claimed relationship.

Given the lack of evidence of contact with your sponsor I am led to doubt the genuiness of your relationship. More specifically, the evidence of your relationship with xxx consists of your marriage certificate. Indeed if it were not for this it would be difficult to establish that you had ever met.

I therefore am not staisfied your relationship with your sponsor is genuine and subsisting or that you intend to live together permanently in the UK. I therefore refuse your application under paragraph EC-P.1.1(d) of Appendix FM of the Immigration Rules (E-ECP.2.6 & 2.10).

You have not submitted all of the required documents listed above, whilst you have submitted a BULATS English - Reading and Listening certificate to level A2 you have not submitted a certificate for the Speaking element of the test to demonstrate that you have achieved at least A1. I therefore refuse your application under paragraph EC-P.1.1(d) of Appendix FM of the Immigration Rules (E-ECP.4.1).

Edited November 9, 2013 by MaiChai

[ThaiVisaExpress]

The refusal notice does confirm what you have said. Taking the relationship bit first, the ECO would have/should have had the "papers" from the visit visa available. Possibly he also had your wife's passport containing the visa itself. I think the relationship refusal reason will be fairly easy to overcome at either appeal or review.

The BULATS results come in two formats. There are the test results, which are 3 blue sheets of paper, giving the results for Reading and Listening, and Writing and Speaking. You will, as you say, need to find out if you submitted all three of those sheets. The other format is the Certificate itself, which is issued if the applicant passes all four elements at A1 level. It takes a couple of weeks to arrive. Did you have that ?

If you did in fact submit all of the test results, then the ECO may have missed this evidence. It does happen. If you didn't submit all of the documents, then I think you will need to appeal, and pay the appeal fee. I'm pretty sure that the decision would be overturned at the ECM Review stage, without it going to appeal in the UK.

Tony M

[MaiChai]

Thanks for your reply Tony.

Can i confirm a few things:

1. Can we appeal in Bangkok or do I have to do it in the UK as per the docs sent out?

2. Do I just submit the missing information or is it better to resubmit everything plus the missing information? They say originals should not be sent.

[ThaiVisaExpress]

You have to submit the application in the UK ( you can do it online, and send the documents by post). You cannot appeal in Bangkok.

You need only submit the missing information ( and te reasons you are appealing, of course), as the Embassy will have copied everything already, and they will submit all of that to the Appeal Tribunal.

But, you have not said if you originally submitted the "missing" information. If you did, then you might be able to write to the Embassy in Bangkok and ask them to review the decision.

Tony M

[MaiChai]

Thanks Tony.

No I didn't submit the missing documentation because I focused on the more important financial support documentation.

I don't know how they can say we never met, we would have to meet to get married, and now you need to meet the marriage registrar 4 weeks before the wedding and she gives you a grilling to ensure you are genuine, are getting married for the right reasons, and checks documents. The registrar tried to dissuade my wife from marrying me as I have been married before and maybe I would not make a good husband and stick at the marriage (fair play to her doing this).

Anyhow, I appreciate you gave advice for free; have you got a 'buy me a beer' link (as thanks)?

[7by7]

The English test results are just as important as the financial evidence; as you have unfortunately found out.

No English test results, no visa.

They don't say that you haven't met; just that on the evidence provided if it wasn't for your marriage it would be difficult to establish that you had met.

For the benefit of others reading this; this refusal highlights two very important aspects:

• Each application is treated on it's own merits; don't assume that because the applicant has applied before that you don't need to supply similar evidence again. ECOs don't always have the time to cross reference every current application with past ones, and even if they did they want to see updated, current evidence.
• Check the application and supporting documents carefully. The onus is on the applicant to ensure that it is complete, the ECO is not obliged to chase after missing documents.

Good luck with the appeal.

[Seekingasylum]

Leaving aside the question of her English proficiency, it should be noted that a decision founded upon matters not specifed in Appendix FM, as documents required by law, must be made to the prevailing applicable standard of proof which is, upon the balance of probability.

Now, the ECO observed that it was difficult from the application to decide whether or not you and your wife were indeed in a relationship, if it were not for your marriage certificate. In submitting the application form I assume your wife completed the questions concerning the grant of previous visas and that she had visited you in the UK. From this it would have been apparent that there was indeed a relationship and that given the advent of marriage it was self evident it is an enduring one. Having accepted that you and she were in a relationship in a prior application, sufficent to merit the grant of a visa, it is quite perverse of the ECO to now argue that, on the balance of probability it no longer persists, despite the production of a marriage certificate and confirmation that you are the same sponsor who invited his wife on that previous visit. The whole world and his wife knows that modern day technology often means there is no readily available evidence of communication and to refuse an application on such a basis is clearly unreasonable. The argument that it is not incumbent upon the ECO to discover evidence within his own records relating to the applicant in order to consider a fresh decison , " because he is too busy ", particularly in the circumstances of this refusal. is lame and without any merit. The VAF 4 requires an applicant to disclose previous applications and as such they are clearly relevant to subsequent applications.

You most certainly would succeed on appeal but a decent letter to the ECM might bear fruit. Problem is, these days it's all about the money and I suspect they'll do nothing and rely upon you to submit a further application if you don't ant to hang around for an appeal outcome.

[MaiChai]

Yes, we advised on the letter and the application form that she had been granted a visit visa, and advised the visa number.

Thanks everyone for all your help. I will try an email to the ECM. If that bears no fruit I will write a letter, and if that bears no fruit, go for appeal. Hopefully appeal will be quicker (and cheaper) than reapplying, as it appears to take almost 12 weeks for settlement visa processing.

Edited November 10, 2013 by MaiChai

[Kevin1908]

Yes, we advised on the letter and the application form that she had been granted a visit visa, and advised the visa number.

Thanks everyone for all your help. I will try an email to the ECM. If that bears no fruit I will write a letter, and if that bears no fruit, go for appeal. Hopefully appeal will be quicker (and cheaper) than reapplying, as it appears to take almost 12 weeks for settlement visa processing.

Have you been sending any money to Thailand and can this bee seen on the bank statements. My wife's visa wasn't refused but they did come back with queries one of them being the relationship bit. I admit I found it difficult as you never think to make copies of every text, every phone call, every skype message but I did point out the cash transfers on the bank statements that they had conveniently ignored.

I also drew attention to the visa stamps in my passport. I aslo sent them a copy of my will leaving part of my estate to my wife. I have to say that it does seem a bit off that they didn't coem back with questions but rejected it out oh hand.

I hope that you write to your MP, may be eventually if enough of this gets through our elected representatives might wake up and do something.

[bobrussell]

A marriage certificate and successful visit visa application (assuming she travelled to the UK!) is pretty good evidence of a subsisting relationship. I would have expected a refusal on these grounds to be the sign of desperation on the part of the ECO.

I would agree no English test, no settlement visa but ECOs are allowed to make a phone call or request further documentation prior to a refusal.

Sounds decidedly odd to me. Why would someone spend a grand on a visa for someone they are not in a relationship with?

Writing to your MP may make you feel better (it did me) but don't expect it to cut much mustard with UKV&I. They have a department specifically to avoid answering MP's questions!

As for:

"Indeed if it were not for this it would be difficult to establish that you had ever met"

Snotty g*t!

Edited November 11, 2013 by bobrussell

[MaiChai]

Thanks guys for your support.

Why would my wife return to Thailand and then spend a grand on a much harder visa to apply for if she wished to stay in the UK? The only reason is that we wish to obey the law, do things properly, and our situation is real.

I will send the letter off tomorrow to the Embassy if there is no reply to the email i sent them by then.

I have the impression they are snowed under with applications. But then at the prices they charge they could afford to resource it?

[7by7]

The argument that it is not incumbent upon the ECO to discover evidence within his own records relating to the applicant in order to consider a fresh decison , " because he is too busy ", particularly in the circumstances of this refusal. is lame and without any merit. The VAF 4 requires an applicant to disclose previous applications and as such they are clearly relevant to subsequent applications.

I'm going to play devil's advocate again.

The requirement is that the relationship be genuine and subsisting; as the wording of the refusal notice makes clear. Previous visit applications, even a marriage, in the past do not show that the relationship is subsisting now.

Even if the only contact between sponsor and applicant is electronic, it is usually possible to provide some evidence of this; if not, then a brief explanation in the sponsor's letter can cover this aspect.

Moral: never assume, cover all the bases. No matter how many UK visas the applicant has had in the past, supply up to date evidence that all requirements are met for this one.

I do agree, though, that were this the only reason for refusal in this case that the ECO would be on very shaky ground; but it isn't. The ECO had no choice other than to refuse because the OP, or rather his wife, did not show that she had met the language requirement.

All the guidance and information from UKV&I makes it clear that the onus is on the applicant to ensure that the application is complete; the OP admits that he and his wife did not do this.

There is a long running topic on waiting times; containing many posts complaining about how long people have to wait. How much longer would those waiting times be if the ECOs chased up every applicant who had forgotten to include a document?

Moral: before submitting the application, check thoroughly to ensure you haven't left something or some document out.

I have the impression they are snowed under with applications. But then at the prices they charge they could afford to resource it?

The government set the fees, the government decides the staffing level and the government keeps the profits.

Visa and leave to remain fees used to be reasonable and covered costs; until Blair decided they should make a profit for the exchequer. Despite vociferous opposition at the time from both the Tories and LibDems, the coalition has continued with this rip off policy.

Edited November 12, 2013 by 7by7

[Kevin1908]

The government set the fees, the government decides the staffing level and the government keeps the profits.

Visa and leave to remain fees used to be reasonable and covered costs; until Blair decided they should make a profit for the exchequer. Despite vociferous opposition at the time from both the Tories and LibDems, the coalition has continued with this rip off policy.

In that case then at least a letter to the op's MP wouldn't do any harm. There is "strictly to the rules" and "stupidity".

I think it is wrong of the Government to tar every legitimate British man with the brush of marriage scammer.