Passport as a deposit for a motorcycle

[Maramook]

I'm renting a motorbike now and when I was taking it from a rental, they asked my to give them my driving license. I did so, although I didn't like giving any documents as a deposit. Now I'm going to rent a motorcycle like Honda cbr250 at other rental. They told me I have to give them my passport. Their rates are good, by the way. But giving them my passport as a deposit is what I am not going to do. I told them I could leave a deposit like 5000 baht, but they did agree.

What do I do about: look for other rental or try to work it out? Is it legal for rentals to ask for documents as a deposit?

Edited November 12, 2013 by Maramook

[HeijoshinCool]

Never. No way. Not a chance.

The benefit to risk ratio is appalling. Think about what happens if, through zero fault of your own, someone damages or steals the bike? It does happen.

Plenty of places only ask you to partially fill out a form, if that's not acceptable, walk away.

What's legal is irrelevant, but I can't imagine there is any Thai law that authorizes or requires them to demand it. Passports aren't even the property of the "holder," so why would you give it to a shopkeeper you've never met before, and trust them not to lose it, or allow it to be stolen?

Edited November 12, 2013 by HeijoshinCool

[Neilly]

Is it legal for rentals to ask for documents as a deposit?

Simple answer, NO...they can have a copy of your passport is all.

And if you get pulled with no driving licence you can get fined for that as well

Do a search in the motorcycle forum, there are lots of horror stories in there about people who handed over their passport

[robsamui]

Plus it is worth bearing in mind that, by law, 'aliens' must carry their passport with them at all times.

I have never heard an instance of someone who didn't have their passport with them having a problem, but I am sure it must have happened.

It's another one of those laws that the police don't bother enforcing until it suits them to do so.

R

[cornishcarlos]

Don't leave them 5000 baht either, unless you are feeling generous !!!!!

Definitelydo not give them your passport, a photocopy should be adequate...

[Maramook]

Is it legal for rentals to ask for documents as a deposit?

Simple answer, NO...they can have a copy of your passport is all.

And if you get pulled with no driving licence you can get fined for that as well

Do a search in the motorcycle forum, there are lots of horror stories in there about people who handed over their passport

But where do I find the law proving this? Or how do I do a google search for this?

I'd print it out and show them, if they continued asking for my documents I'd say I'd take them to a court. That's what a friend of my did in the Philippines and he made them obey, although he is a foreigner.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Maramook

[Maramook]

Don't leave them 5000 baht either, unless you are feeling generous !!!!!

Definitelydo not give them your passport, a photocopy should be adequate...

There is no rental where you don't have to leave anything yours: your passport or driving license or money deposit.

[cornishcarlos]

Don't leave them 5000 baht either, unless you are feeling generous !!!!!

Definitelydo not give them your passport, a photocopy should be adequate...

There is no rental where you don't have to leave anything yours: your passport or driving license or money deposit.

There are plenty my friend...

I have rented bikes several times, in Phuket, Koh Tao and Chiang Mai, always leaving a photo copy of my passport.

You might have to hunt around a bit for a place that doesn't require it, but if you don't want a fight to get your passport back, it is time well spent.

[transam]

NEVER let your passport out of your sight. It does not belong to you, it belongs to your government. If the shop has a break in and your passport is lost your in deep doo doo.

[yorkie100]

Is it legal for rentals to ask for documents as a deposit?

Simple answer, NO...they can have a copy of your passport is all.

And if you get pulled with no driving licence you can get fined for that as well

Do a search in the motorcycle forum, there are lots of horror stories in there about people who handed over their passport

But where do I find the law proving this? Or how do I do a google search for this?

I'd print it out and show them, if they continued asking for my documents I'd say I'd take them to a court. That's what a friend of my did in the Philippines and he made them obey, although he is a foreigner.

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/thailand/local-laws-and-customs

para 4.

[wayned]

NEVER let your passport out of your sight. It does not belong to you, it belongs to your government. If the shop has a break in and your passport is lost your in deep doo doo.

I had a friend that had the same thoughts as you. He always carried his work permit and passport in his back pocket. After he lost them both once and his wife washed them twice he decided that maybe, just maybe, it would be better to only carry his plastic 5 year driving license and a copy of his passport! But never give either of them as security. If they won't accept a copy walk away. If they want your business they will come after you, if not then so be it!

[Maramook]

But where do I find the law proving this? Or how do I do a google search for this?

I'd print it out and show them, if they continued asking for my documents I'd say I'd take them to a court. That's what a friend of my did in the Philippines and he made them obey, although he is a foreigner.

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/thailand/local-laws-and-customs

para 4.

Well, this is not an official document for Thailand, it might be official for UK but I doubt it since it's titled "advice".

I went to a few rentals, asked for a simple motorbike (not a motorcycle) for a month rent and they ALL wanted me to leave my original passport for them as a deposit. One farang even asked me for 50k baht instead once I told him taking a passport is illegal.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Maramook

[evadgib]

"There's none so deaf as those that cannot hear!" (old Lancs proverb that seemingly applies to the OP).

Passport Cloning is worth looking at too.

[AlfGarnett]

So what is acceptable deposit for a motorbike ? Copy of a passport ? What if the person crashes and just clears off, they could be gone before you know it. The Police are not going to actively go around looking for the person are they ? Claim on the Insurance ?

Most bikes start around the 50,000 baht mark nowadays, so that is a lot of money to entrust to a stranger. I fully understand somebody requiring proper security from me, as I would have their motorbike. As I understand a lot of Russians leave their Russian passport as security, it is just trying to find a mutually acceptable deposit, whether financial or documents.

I have always wondered, what if somebody rented a bike, no deposit (passport) and killed somebody by running them over. Then promptly left the Island/Thailand, would the owner of the bike(person who rented out the bike) be liable ? Surely somebody would have to pay compensation somewhere down the line.

[HeijoshinCool]

But where do I find the law proving this? Or how do I do a google search for this?

I'd print it out and show them, if they continued asking for my documents I'd say I'd take them to a court. That's what a friend of my did in the Philippines and he made them obey, although he is a foreigner.

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/thailand/local-laws-and-customs

para 4.

Well, this is not an official document for Thailand, it might be official for UK but I doubt it since it's titled "advice".

I went to a few rentals, asked for a simple motorbike (not a motorcycle) for a month rent and they ALL wanted me to leave my original passport for them as a deposit. One farang even asked me for 50k baht instead once I told him taking a passport is illegal.

You know what, bud? If you were as stubborn with the rental companies as you were with those of whom you solicited advice, we all wouldn't be here.

Go ahead then, give them your passport.

[evadgib]

So what is acceptable deposit for a motorbike ? Copy of a passport ? What if the person crashes and just clears off, they could be gone before you know it. The Police are not going to actively go around looking for the person are they ? Claim on the Insurance ?

Most bikes start around the 50,000 baht mark nowadays, so that is a lot of money to entrust to a stranger. I fully understand somebody requiring proper security from me, as I would have their motorbike. As I understand a lot of Russians leave their Russian passport as security, it is just trying to find a mutually acceptable deposit, whether financial or documents.

I have always wondered, what if somebody rented a bike, no deposit (passport) and killed somebody by running them over. Then promptly left the Island/Thailand, would the owner of the bike(person who rented out the bike) be liable ? Surely somebody would have to pay compensation somewhere down the line.

- After all the warnings & tales of woe "four wheels and a roof" should be the bare minimum foreigners should consider when hiring anything with an engine.

- Reputable companies won't ask for a passport. Others rule themselves out.

- Don't sign anything you cannot read.

Edited November 12, 2013 by evadgib

[69Andy]

Take a copy with you or just tell them you will take your money else where,

[Maramook]

But where do I find the law proving this? Or how do I do a google search for this?

I'd print it out and show them, if they continued asking for my documents I'd say I'd take them to a court. That's what a friend of my did in the Philippines and he made them obey, although he is a foreigner.

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/thailand/local-laws-and-customs

para 4.

Well, this is not an official document for Thailand, it might be official for UK but I doubt it since it's titled "advice".

I went to a few rentals, asked for a simple motorbike (not a motorcycle) for a month rent and they ALL wanted me to leave my original passport for them as a deposit. One farang even asked me for 50k baht instead once I told him taking a passport is illegal.

You know what, bud? If you were as stubborn with the rental companies as you were with those of whom you solicited advice, we all wouldn't be here.

Go ahead then, give them your passport.

Why are you nervous? Have a pad-thai, drink a coconut, it must help.

[Tropicalevo]

Is it legal for rentals to ask for documents as a deposit?

Simple answer, NO...they can have a copy of your passport is all.

And if you get pulled with no driving licence you can get fined for that as well

Do a search in the motorcycle forum, there are lots of horror stories in there about people who handed over their passport

But where do I find the law proving this? Or how do I do a google search for this?

I'd print it out and show them, if they continued asking for my documents I'd say I'd take them to a court. That's what a friend of my did in the Philippines and he made them obey, although he is a foreigner.

They know that this is against the law, you do not need to prove it. They do it so that they can blackmail you to pay whatever they want.

Once they have your passport - you have to pay whatever to get it back. Whether you damage the bike or not. Why should you trust them?

Do not do it.

If you are on Samui there is a company where I can get you a rental bike with no passport - but it's in Choengmon. I will PM the company name to you if you want it. There are honest rental companies around. Just not everywhere.

[notmyself]

But where do I find the law proving this? Or how do I do a google search for this?

I'd print it out and show them, if they continued asking for my documents I'd say I'd take them to a court. That's what a friend of my did in the Philippines and he made them obey, although he is a foreigner.

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/thailand/local-laws-and-customs

para 4.

Well, this is not an official document for Thailand, it might be official for UK but I doubt it since it's titled "advice".

The fact you do not have to send your old passport when applying for a new passport suggests?

Edited November 12, 2013 by notmyself

[robsamui]

Is it legal for rentals to ask for documents as a deposit?

Simple answer, NO...they can have a copy of your passport is all.

And if you get pulled with no driving licence you can get fined for that as well

Do a search in the motorcycle forum, there are lots of horror stories in there about people who handed over their passport

But where do I find the law proving this? Or how do I do a google search for this?

I'd print it out and show them, if they continued asking for my documents I'd say I'd take them to a court. That's what a friend of my did in the Philippines and he made them obey, although he is a foreigner.

From this I can tell you do not have a lot of experience of the way things work in Thailand.

The only way to take them to a court is to initially engage the services of an expensive lawyer - the police here play no part in issues like this.

There is no 'small claims' process where you can issue your own proceedings for small sums of money or some kind of legal infringement.

The legal procedure here takes many months to even reach the first hearing, and will probably total several dozen thousand baht to get moving.

All of it at every stage is in the Thai language, both spoken and written, meaning extra costs for translation services.

And all of this is based on your assumption that the guy in the motorbike rental shop is in some way infringing Thai law - and that's the only law I think there is here.

Your assumptions here are much the same as a guy I met in a bar last month. He'd bought some suncream factor 20 and sat out in the sun and got burned. He wanted to get his money back!! The shop owner was uncooperative. This guy then started asking around - should he go to the police about this?

This is Thailand, and very few things are similar to the way things work back home.

Although most of the time this works very much in your favour. You won't get stopped for your tail-light not working or to have your licence checked, or for a bit of rust on your back bumper, or if you park (or drive) on the wrong side of the road, if your exhaust is smoking or noisy - or even drive in the dark with your lights off. On the other hand if you bang on the table and insist on the rights you think you ought to have here, you may well find that the police will then nail you for all of these things, plus a few other things also!

R

Edited November 12, 2013 by robsamui

[robsamui]

Marmarook, if you're interested, PM me and I will put you in touch with a very nice French guy who rents bikes and is totally honest. There are others I am sure, ref the post from TropEvo.

But this one lives here, I've known him for ever and he is OK.

R

Edited November 12, 2013 by robsamui

[yorkie100]

But where do I find the law proving this? Or how do I do a google search for this?

I'd print it out and show them, if they continued asking for my documents I'd say I'd take them to a court. That's what a friend of my did in the Philippines and he made them obey, although he is a foreigner.

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/thailand/local-laws-and-customs

para 4.

Well, this is not an official document for Thailand, it might be official for UK but I doubt it since it's titled "advice".

I went to a few rentals, asked for a simple motorbike (not a motorcycle) for a month rent and they ALL wanted me to leave my original passport for them as a deposit. One farang even asked me for 50k baht instead once I told him taking a passport is illegal.

You know what, bud? If you were as stubborn with the rental companies as you were with those of whom you solicited advice, we all wouldn't be here.

Go ahead then, give them your passport.

Well, Maramook you asked for advice....and you've got it, good advice, mainly from expats here with LOTS of experience of Samui and it's native inhabitants.

Up to you now what you do with it. Good luck and enjoy your stay.....and don't forget, if you DO finally rent a bike ALWAYS WEAR A HELMET, STAY SOBER if driving and BE VERY CAREFUL on Samui's roads.

Just a quick edit, take a look here: http://www.samuitimes.com/kates-story-life-losing-loved-one-roads-koh-samui/

and http://www.samuitimes.com/staying-safe-roads-koh-samui/

Edited November 12, 2013 by yorkie100

[notmyself]

Is it legal for rentals to ask for documents as a deposit?

Simple answer, NO...they can have a copy of your passport is all.

And if you get pulled with no driving licence you can get fined for that as well

Do a search in the motorcycle forum, there are lots of horror stories in there about people who handed over their passport

But where do I find the law proving this? Or how do I do a google search for this?

I'd print it out and show them, if they continued asking for my documents I'd say I'd take them to a court. That's what a friend of my did in the Philippines and he made them obey, although he is a foreigner.

From this I can tell you do not have a lot of experience of the way things work in Thailand.

The only way to take them to a court is to initially engage the services of an expensive lawyer - the police here play no part in issues like this.

There is no 'small claims' process where you can issue your own proceedings for small sums of money or some kind of legal infringement.

The legal procedure here takes many months to even reach the first hearing, and will probably total several dozen thousand baht to get moving.

All of it at every stage is in the Thai language, both spoken and written, meaning extra costs for translation services.

And all of this is based on your assumption that the guy in the motorbike rental shop is in some way infringing Thai law - and that's the only law I think there is here.

Your assumptions here are much the same as a guy I met in a bar last month. He'd bought some suncream factor 20 and sat out in the sun and got burned. He wanted to get his money back!! The shop owner was uncooperative. This guy then started asking around - should he go to the police about this?

This is Thailand, and very few things are similar to the way things work back home.

Although most of the time this works very much in your favour. You won't get stopped for your tail-light not working or to have your licence checked, or for a bit of rust on your back bumper, or if you park (or drive) on the wrong side of the road, if your exhaust is smoking or noisy - or even drive in the dark with your lights off. On the other hand if you bang on the table and insist on the rights you think you ought to have here, you may well find that the police will then nail you for all of these things, plus a few other things also!

R

Spot on mate.

During the evening there is a police check on the road and you are asked for your passport. In my room or at home you answer and the police come with you to show it to them. Happens. In theory you should have it on you at all times but in reality you need to be able produce it upon demand even if it means driving home or back to the room. Imagine it was being held by a motorbike rental company, so you take the police to the business but they are closed. What are the police likely to do?

[Opl]

... and beware of tourists drivinging big bikes... not sure they are used to in their own country of residence , for hiring bikes is not so usual because of insurance conditions.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Opl

[evadgib]

More from the OP:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/681124-holding-an-alien-passport-illegal-how-do-i-prove-it/

I'm guessing he's used his passport (had done so prior to posting), 'bent' a motorbike & is now looking for a top hat / white rabbit re getting it back.

Edited November 12, 2013 by evadgib

[notmyself]

Pay the owner what he is asking for then. The police may be willing to assist on value but what's the point given bikes are so cheap. Buy the owner a new one in exchange for the broken one, get that fixed up and sell it. Best way.

Edited November 12, 2013 by notmyself

[Neilly]

But where do I find the law proving this? Or how do I do a google search for this?

I'd print it out and show them, if they continued asking for my documents I'd say I'd take them to a court. That's what a friend of my did in the Philippines and he made them obey, although he is a foreigner.

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/thailand/local-laws-and-customs

para 4.

Well, this is not an official document for Thailand, it might be official for UK but I doubt it since it's titled "advice".

I went to a few rentals, asked for a simple motorbike (not a motorcycle) for a month rent and they ALL wanted me to leave my original passport for them as a deposit. One farang even asked me for 50k baht instead once I told him taking a passport is illegal.

I guess you missed this bit

By law, you must carry your passport with you at all times in Thailand. Tourists have been arrested because they were unable to produce their passport on request. Make sure you complete the next of kin details section in the back of your passport.

[BTempleman]

NEVER let your passport out of your sight. It does not belong to you, it belongs to your government. If the shop has a break in and your passport is lost your in deep doo doo.

I suppose different countries treat their nationals differently, but as a US citizen, my passport is mine. I paid for it, so it is my property. I submitted my soon to expire passport with a renewal application and it was returned to me with my new one. If your passport is lost or stolen, you must pay for a new one at your embassy. You will not be permitted to enter your own country without a passport. You may be prohibited from using air, ground, or sea transportation out of this country without a passport. My passport is a document where my country vouches for my identity and nationality. It does not own it. It can compel me to surrender it pursuant to a court order, but not without due process of law.

Sent from my GT-P5113 using Tapatalk 4

[transam]

NEVER let your passport out of your sight. It does not belong to you, it belongs to your government. If the shop has a break in and your passport is lost your in deep doo doo.

I suppose different countries treat their nationals differently, but as a US citizen, my passport is mine. I paid for it, so it is my property. I submitted my soon to expire passport with a renewal application and it was returned to me with my new one. If your passport is lost or stolen, you must pay for a new one at your embassy. You will not be permitted to enter your own country without a passport. You may be prohibited from using air, ground, or sea transportation out of this country without a passport. My passport is a document where my country vouches for my identity and nationality. It does not own it. It can compel me to surrender it pursuant to a court order, but not without due process of law.

Sent from my GT-P5113 using Tapatalk 4

Rubbish. Open it and see what it says on the first pages. Perhaps you USA guys have something different but where I come from I did read the pages in my Passport.

PS. We all pay for them.