Huge marches in Bangkok today

[winstonc]

It is not about corruption.

It is about ousting a democratically elected government and moving back to an undemocratic system as was called for by Suthep yesterday.

Get over your obsessions with Thaksin and see through the smoke and mirrors.

Sent from my SM-N900 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Your argument is moot by the fact that the every election, including the one that led to the current government, is marred by rampant and pervasive bribery - that's the crux of the issue.

Many of those gathering have been bused in from the South and are receiving 500thb per day as has been documented on other threads.

We saw the Democrats recruit the 'Friends of Newin Faction' specifically to vote-buy in the North East, and he was given the most lucrative ministries to plunder as a reward.

It is very convenient to say that all the votes have been bought, as an excuse to annul the democratic process, but that's all it is, an excuse.

bussed in .well they wernt going walk there .my wife flew from ubon to bkk yesterday.was there for 16 days now back again .its about 1 man and rampant corruption.stop trolling your embarrasing yourself..i am silly for biting at your posts best to ignore you i think..be safe chalem..

[FarangTalk]

It is not about corruption.

It is about ousting a democratically elected government and moving back to an undemocratic system as was called for by Suthep yesterday.

Get over your obsessions with Thaksin and see through the smoke and mirrors.

Sent from my SM-N900 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

"Get over your obsessions with Thaksin and see through the smoke and mirrors."

If you mean the smoke and mirrors of of the PTP, then yes the people are beginning to see through, hence the anti government rallies that are happening as we speak and to be honest, they see through the smoke and mirrors of the Demos as well. They are just trying to get rid of the worst offenders first.

If the next govt tries the same, I think they will be met with the same. It may look like the protests are the same old hat to many, but it's a real warning from the people to the government. Enough!

People are aware of government corruption, not least of all myself but that is not the issue and never has been.

If this attempt to oust the government succeeds and the PAD, Democrats and Suthep get their way there will be no more democracy for Thailand. End of, done and dusted. It will be mere lip service to appease the US and other Western nations.

Any protests or attempts to unseat their position will be met with force. Expect to see numerous arrests under article 112.

It will make the sharpened sticks and catapults of the red-shirt thugs look like a picnic.

This has been planned since 2005/06. It isn't a spontaneous event caused by government corruption and incompetence but that is what they want you to believe.

"Oh look at the last government, look what they did! Better we install our unelected cronies instead, we're far less malevolent and benign!"

[sms747]

protester's leaders are well connected at the very top and well sponsored, so they are not scared of any future charges against them

Thats right the tiny amart using it's money power and influence to oust yet another elected government, and clowns on here supporting it!

Edited November 25, 2013 by sms747

[FarangTalk]

Suthep announces the aims which is an abandonment of the current democratic process.

http://asiancorrespondent.com/116332/suthep-calls-for-change-to-administration-system-by-the-monarchy-in-true-form/

Or not:

BP: Also, Sunday night, Suthep did say “democratic system with the King as Head of State in a true form”

As BP clearly points out that was a different speech. Now read the article properly and stop misrepresenting what Suthep said.

[FarangTalk]

protester's leaders are well connected at the very top and well sponsored, so they are not scared of any future charges against them

Thats right the tiny amart using it's money power and influence to oust yet another elected government, and clowns on here supporting it!

There are none so blind as those that will not see.

[Timwin]

The deciding factor will be Isaan. That is like Texas+Kansas here. Nothing moves here without them in the floor level.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Timwin

[jpinx]

Many of those gathering have been bused in from the South and are receiving 500thb per day as has been documented on other threads.

We saw the Democrats recruit the 'Friends of Newin Faction' specifically to vote-buy in the North East, and he was given the most lucrative ministries to plunder as a reward.

It is very convenient to say that all the votes have been bought, as an excuse to annul the democratic process, but that's all it is, an excuse.

I live in the South, and I know many people who headed up to Bangkok, not one of them that I am aware of has been paid - I generally do hear about such occurrences when payments are offered for votes, but I have not in this instance. The only references I have seen regarding payment have come from a tiny number of individuals on this forum who clearly support the current administration. Frankly, I do not believe payments are being offered in this instance - certainly not to the degree that they are routinely offered for votes.

Regardless, a democratic process intrinsically requires very little (zero, to be fair) bribery, it occurred rampantly during the last election (as with prior general elections and with subsequent local elections), therefore in my opinion the current government was not democratically elected. It is not an excuse, we simply do not yet have democracy in this country yet since it appears that running a fair election has to date been impossible, and therefore defending the status quo with the claim it is the result of a democratic process is a fallacy.

As a matter of interest -- when was the last time Thailand had a government elected by the people -- bribed or not -- and serve it's full term ? ,,,,

[Local Drunk]

Suthep announces the aims which is an abandonment of the current democratic process.

http://asiancorrespondent.com/116332/suthep-calls-for-change-to-administration-system-by-the-monarchy-in-true-form/

Ask yourself a few questions? Is the current democratic process working? Who is it working for? How do the voters and society in general benefit from it? What else has it accomplished? What are it's ultimate goals? Why should it continue?

Now... All politicians have big mouths and if you take a few minutes and consider some of the things said from the cabinet of this current govt; then BP and you need to have a go at them as well.

[FarangTalk]

The deciding factor will be Isaan. That is like Texas+Kansas here. Nothing moves here without them in the floor level.

That is Thaksin's ace and he's waiting to play it.

However if the Isaan masses descend on Bangkok in numbers the planned civil conflict would be an inevitability and then if would undoubtedly force the military to step in, which is what Suthep and his cronies are hoping for. It plays into their hands.

I expect later today the anti-government protesters will start to up the ante and become a little more belligerent.

[noni99]

It is not about corruption.

It is about ousting a democratically elected government and moving back to an undemocratic system as was called for by Suthep yesterday.

Get over your obsessions with Thaksin and see through the smoke and mirrors.

Sent from my SM-N900 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

"It is not about corruption." - hahaha

I have no obsession regarding Thaksin, but it's too clear for every one with only just half a brain to see, what he stands for ...

Some people knew it since more than 10 years, some start to realize it now - and some still can't or don't want to see it. But I hope that you are just a troll and don't believe this statement ...

"It is not about corruption." - hahaha

[DtemJai]

http://www.blueskychannel.tv/ Long time in waiting.

[ezzra]

I always keep wondering what if Thaksin was not around? how would Thai politics

would look and act?

[FarangTalk]

Suthep announces the aims which is an abandonment of the current democratic process.

http://asiancorrespondent.com/116332/suthep-calls-for-change-to-administration-system-by-the-monarchy-in-true-form/

Ask yourself a few questions? Is the current democratic process working? Who is it working for? How do the voters and society in general benefit from it? What else has it accomplished? What are it's ultimate goals? Why should it continue?

Now... All politicians have big mouths and if you take a few minutes and consider some of the things said from the cabinet of this current govt; then BP and you need to have a go at them as well.

The only reason it is not working is because of the constant attempts to undermine it by those that wish to change it and take power back away from the people.

If the government is corrupt or inept then the voters should decide to remove them at the ballot box.

You have to let things take their course.

This attempt to unseat this government is far more sinister I fear and has been brewing for many years. Their attempts subsequent to 2006 failed and so they are upping the stakes this time.

They simply don't want any democracy which they cannot own or control themselves.

[rijb]

What's the plan if they do get the government to step down?

Same thing they've done after the last 20 coup efforts - get ready for the next one - with lots of mass organizing in between.

[h90]

It is not about corruption.

It is about ousting a democratically elected government and moving back to an undemocratic system as was called for by Suthep yesterday.

Get over your obsessions with Thaksin and see through the smoke and mirrors.

Sent from my SM-N900 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

"Get over your obsessions with Thaksin and see through the smoke and mirrors."

If you mean the smoke and mirrors of of the PTP, then yes the people are beginning to see through, hence the anti government rallies that are happening as we speak and to be honest, they see through the smoke and mirrors of the Demos as well. They are just trying to get rid of the worst offenders first.

If the next govt tries the same, I think they will be met with the same. It may look like the protests are the same old hat to many, but it's a real warning from the people to the government. Enough!

People are aware of government corruption, not least of all myself but that is not the issue and never has been.

If this attempt to oust the government succeeds and the PAD, Democrats and Suthep get their way there will be no more democracy for Thailand. End of, done and dusted. It will be mere lip service to appease the US and other Western nations.

Any protests or attempts to unseat their position will be met with force. Expect to see numerous arrests under article 112.

It will make the sharpened sticks and catapults of the red-shirt thugs look like a picnic.

This has been planned since 2005/06. It isn't a spontaneous event caused by government corruption and incompetence but that is what they want you to believe.

"Oh look at the last government, look what they did! Better we install our unelected cronies instead, we're far less malevolent and benign!"

I was here when Abhisit was premier: more democracy than now. No mass arrests.

I was here when Surayud was premier: even not elected the government acted more democratic than this and organized free elections (which were won by Thaksin, so no fraud) and no mass arrests.

I was here when Thaksin was here and he started his war against drugs with 3000 dead and half had nothing to do with narcotics and at that time he was very proud of it.

I was here at several elections where I always saw vote buying from Thaksin. While I admit there might be vote buying from the Democrats, I never saw it.

From all the governments only Thaksin tried to destroy the system of checks and balance and the separation of power. So make a reality check.

[Local Drunk]

The deciding factor will be Isaan. That is like Texas+Kansas here. Nothing moves here without them in the floor level.

That is Thaksin's ace and he's waiting to play it.

However if the Isaan masses descend on Bangkok in numbers the planned civil conflict would be an inevitability and then if would undoubtedly force the military to step in, which is what Suthep and his cronies are hoping for. It plays into their hands.

I expect later today the anti-government protesters will start to up the ante and become a little more belligerent.

I can see it playing into the hands of the PTP. A coup would let them off the hook for all their failed policies and make them look like victims in the eyes of the world. Why else would the Red Shirts be massing in Bkk, but to cause a conflict?

[nong38]

I dont think the current Govt has covered itself in glory since they came to power, the PM seems to be on tour most of the time abroad and then there is always at the back of everything some bloke in the middle east who keeps sticking his phone in.

As for the protesters well they have kept a hug crowd entertained for some considerable time now and they dont seem like they want to give up and go home, I dont understand Thai so I have no idea what is being said but they seem to striking a chord in Bangkok.

We expect where we come from to wait and pressure until the next elections are called, here they dont seem to want to wait a shade of Thai democracy perhaps?

There may not be many wavering/floating voters in the country so in an election could the opposition ever get a majority under the current system or is a foregone conclusion?

The Govt can now either sit it out or call an election but the bloke in the middle east has said that there should not be election now ( who is running theis country?) so now we wait and watch and hope that things will stay peaceful but large crowds always attract trouble makers so........

Even if the conflicting groups could sit down and agree on a way forward for the benefit of Thailand I get the impression it would not last, its seems like the interests of the few outweigh the benefits of the majority who just want to get on with life, a better life.

[gabruce]

It is not about corruption.

It is about ousting a democratically elected government and moving back to an undemocratic system as was called for by Suthep yesterday.

Get over your obsessions with Thaksin and see through the smoke and mirrors.

Sent from my SM-N900 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

These people, business people, educators, students etc are holding a peaceful protest against a puppet led, disgrace of a government. They are exercising their constitutional right to do so. As long as they remain peaceful, they should be supported by anyone who values democracy.

You obviously haven't been listening to what Suthep was saying on stage yesterday. Calling for a return to something similar to the pre-1932 system.

Really, that's what it has been about all along, with the smokescreen of removing this government through allegations of corruption and malfeasance.

The right wing PAD were very vocal about returning Thailand to an undemocratic system also, this is just a continuation of their earlier attempts to consolidate power, overthrow an elected government and return Thailand to the dark ages.

It really is quite terrifying that educated Westerners can't see what is happening here.

Could you elaborate on what Suthep is calling for?

[FarangTalk]

It is not about corruption.

It is about ousting a democratically elected government and moving back to an undemocratic system as was called for by Suthep yesterday.

Get over your obsessions with Thaksin and see through the smoke and mirrors.

Sent from my SM-N900 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

"Get over your obsessions with Thaksin and see through the smoke and mirrors."

If you mean the smoke and mirrors of of the PTP, then yes the people are beginning to see through, hence the anti government rallies that are happening as we speak and to be honest, they see through the smoke and mirrors of the Demos as well. They are just trying to get rid of the worst offenders first.

If the next govt tries the same, I think they will be met with the same. It may look like the protests are the same old hat to many, but it's a real warning from the people to the government. Enough!

People are aware of government corruption, not least of all myself but that is not the issue and never has been.

If this attempt to oust the government succeeds and the PAD, Democrats and Suthep get their way there will be no more democracy for Thailand. End of, done and dusted. It will be mere lip service to appease the US and other Western nations.

Any protests or attempts to unseat their position will be met with force. Expect to see numerous arrests under article 112.

It will make the sharpened sticks and catapults of the red-shirt thugs look like a picnic.

This has been planned since 2005/06. It isn't a spontaneous event caused by government corruption and incompetence but that is what they want you to believe.

"Oh look at the last government, look what they did! Better we install our unelected cronies instead, we're far less malevolent and benign!"

I was here when Abhisit was premier: more democracy than now. No mass arrests.

I was here when Surayud was premier: even not elected the government acted more democratic than this and organized free elections (which were won by Thaksin, so no fraud) and no mass arrests.

I was here when Thaksin was here and he started his war against drugs with 3000 dead and half had nothing to do with narcotics and at that time he was very proud of it.

I was here at several elections where I always saw vote buying from Thaksin. While I admit there might be vote buying from the Democrats, I never saw it.

From all the governments only Thaksin tried to destroy the system of checks and balance and the separation of power. So make a reality check.

But you weren't here before Thaksin, and that's why most people are obsessed with the man; they simply don't know anything else.

If Abhisit was truly more democratic he would have been elected in a general election with a mandate from the people. He wasn't. He never has been. He came to power after a deal with the most corrupt faction in Thai politics and a judicial coup.

When an election was called the people again chose a Thaksin affiliated government.

Save the allegations of vote buying by Thaksin parties only, that is one of the main reasons why the Friends of Newin faction was recruited by the Democrats.

[FarangTalk]

It is not about corruption.

It is about ousting a democratically elected government and moving back to an undemocratic system as was called for by Suthep yesterday.

Get over your obsessions with Thaksin and see through the smoke and mirrors.

Sent from my SM-N900 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

These people, business people, educators, students etc are holding a peaceful protest against a puppet led, disgrace of a government. They are exercising their constitutional right to do so. As long as they remain peaceful, they should be supported by anyone who values democracy.

You obviously haven't been listening to what Suthep was saying on stage yesterday. Calling for a return to something similar to the pre-1932 system.

Really, that's what it has been about all along, with the smokescreen of removing this government through allegations of corruption and malfeasance.

The right wing PAD were very vocal about returning Thailand to an undemocratic system also, this is just a continuation of their earlier attempts to consolidate power, overthrow an elected government and return Thailand to the dark ages.

It really is quite terrifying that educated Westerners can't see what is happening here.

Could you elaborate on what Suthep is calling for?

I posted a link earlier in this thread.

[arminbkk]

Suthep announces the aims which is an abandonment of the current democratic process.

http://asiancorrespondent.com/116332/suthep-calls-for-change-to-administration-system-by-the-monarchy-in-true-form/

Let's for a moment entertain this claim, the next question is then: what does it mean for foreigners residing, working, vacationing here?

What is Mr. Suthep's stance on that?

I think Mr. Suthep has a right to voice his opinion and his desires, but he should stick to rallying to gather votes for the next election,

not push for a complete collapse right here and now.

[jpeg]

Best of luck, here's hoping to the end of The Convicted Criminals Governemnt

Not in this century.

This is how democracy works in Thailand, Forget waiting until the next elections you take to the streets anytime you feel like selling a gimmick like a coloured shirt or wristband ... who needs elections anyway.

Typical spoiled brat antics and they are all as bad as each other.

Least some food stalls will be doing a roaring trade for a few days

Oh yes! Sit quietly whilst your country is plundered and then in another four years you get to sit quietly whilst another bunch of thieves are allowed to run amok. The people protesting en mass about what they rightly see as malfeasance by their 'rulers' is true democracy. Look it up. Doesn't happen like this in the West, BUT we have a system of checks and balances to keep them in line and stop them taking the piss too much. This country, doesn't.

The Shinawatra family has taken the piss far too much and for far too long. They won't survive this.

Good

[FarangTalk]

Suthep announces the aims which is an abandonment of the current democratic process.

http://asiancorrespondent.com/116332/suthep-calls-for-change-to-administration-system-by-the-monarchy-in-true-form/

Let's for a moment entertain this claim, the next question is then: what does it mean for foreigners residing, working, vacationing here?

What is Mr. Suthep's stance on that?

I think Mr. Suthep has a right to voice his opinion and his desires, but he should stick to rallying to gather votes for the next election,

not push for a complete collapse right here and now.

The other paper has an article stating Suthep won't just accept Yingluk's resignation or a house dissolution.

He wants to go the whole way and destroy the elected government so they can install their version of democracy where people don't actually get a say in who rules over them.

[oval]

This is my first comment on the current protests in BKK, and after reading all the posts, visiting the protest sites personally, and talking to a bunch of people I though I would throw in my two cents.

Firstly, I applaud the willingness of the locals to get up and make a stand against corrupt government practices, particularly over the amnesty bill, which perhaps deserved to be shot down. It demonstrates that the Thai populace are increasingly able to communicate their dissatisfaction with one another and mobilise, and hopefully it leads to a greater general awareness of the power structures that shape this country, and will allow for a push towards more representative government.

However, I worry about the direction these protests are moving - ie. the overthrow of a democratically elected government. Sure the Shin government is not great, but they WERE put in power via a fair(ish) democratic election (re. vote buying - ALL elections are based on vote buying - I don't know how many millions of dollars are put into election campaigning in the West, but it's all the same thing)... I feel that the yellow faction, for want of a better term, are co-opting the popular anti-government sentiment for their own means, and their intentions are to put in a non-democratic government and to restore the traditional elite power base. It's no longer about a popular democratic uprising, it is about the restoration of power back into the old hands.

It is my hope that the people of Thailand come to their senses and realise that no matter what colour shirt they're wearing, they are being manipulated by the rich and powerful elite who are in a power struggle over the future control of this country. The people are demonstrating that they will not accept poor governence, but hopefully they are able to to see through the motivations of those powerful figures who are currently stoking the fires and promoting protest.

Edited November 25, 2013 by oval

[FarangTalk]

Best of luck, here's hoping to the end of The Convicted Criminals Governemnt

Not in this century.

This is how democracy works in Thailand, Forget waiting until the next elections you take to the streets anytime you feel like selling a gimmick like a coloured shirt or wristband ... who needs elections anyway.

Typical spoiled brat antics and they are all as bad as each other.

Least some food stalls will be doing a roaring trade for a few days

Oh yes! Sit quietly whilst your country is plundered and then in another four years you get to sit quietly whilst another bunch of thieves are allowed to run amok. The people protesting en mass about what they rightly see as malfeasance by their 'rulers' is true democracy. Look it up. Doesn't happen like this in the West, BUT we have a system of checks and balances to keep them in line and stop them taking the piss too much. This country, doesn't.

The Shinawatra family has taken the piss far too much and for far too long. They won't survive this.

Good

Thailand has arguably more checks and balances than in the West.

The reason they are not being used is the same reason they were never used against Thaksin in 2006; lack of evidence and a weak case.

[Crushdepth]

It is not about corruption.

It is about ousting a democratically elected government and moving back to an undemocratic system as was called for by Suthep yesterday.

Get over your obsessions with Thaksin and see through the smoke and mirrors.

Sent from my SM-N900 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

noncence you havnt got a clue what your saying...its about 1 person only and the rampant corruption...watch the news and keep up..or stop trolling..fool

No it isn't but thanks for your informative and thought-provoking contribution.

Perhaps you should read Andrew MacGregor Marshall's article 'Thailand's Era of Insanity' and educate yourself about what is really going on.

It's no surprise most Westerners have been duped, most don't understand Thai or Thai culture in the slightest. However I am still astounded at the amount of so-called educated expats that remain fooled.

If you seriously believe its not about corruption and public outrage over the amnesty then I invite you to discuss the issue with a few natives.

Read a book did you? Awesome! You must be a real authority on Thai culture.

[harryfrompattaya]

The deciding factor will be Isaan. That is like Texas+Kansas here. Nothing moves here without them in the floor level.

Sorry to say Issan is nothing but a bunch of poor people with little say in Thailand> please do not believe your love one who thin,s the whole world is Issan They just very poor people some work very hard while other live off their daughters and gay sons

[FLHR]

Best of luck, here's hoping to the end of The Convicted Criminals Governemnt

Not in this century.

This is how democracy works in Thailand, Forget waiting until the next elections you take to the streets anytime you feel like selling a gimmick like a coloured shirt or wristband ... who needs elections anyway.

Typical spoiled brat antics and they are all as bad as each other.

Least some food stalls will be doing a roaring trade for a few days

Exactly!!!! Leading these gullible people into believing there will be change; when it's really all about lining different pockets. Thais desperately need the change in the educational system!!!

[arminbkk]

You obviously haven't been listening to what Suthep was saying on stage yesterday. Calling for a return to something similar to the pre-1932 system.

Really, that's what it has been about all along, with the smokescreen of removing this government through allegations of corruption and malfeasance.

The right wing PAD were very vocal about returning Thailand to an undemocratic system also, this is just a continuation of their earlier attempts to consolidate power, overthrow an elected government and return Thailand to the dark ages.

It really is quite terrifying that educated Westerners can't see what is happening here.

I consider myself educated, however, not able to read or write Thai. And asking Thais, all one gets is "I hate Thaksin", "Thaksin out".

And that's from educated, middle-class Thais. One never gets far talking politics with a Thai.

It is a boring subject to them.

The ones I talk to consider all parties the same, money grabbing corrupted bunch. And then change the topic.

Makes it a bit hard to get to the bottom of it.

But, in my opinion, as far as Thailand is concerned, beyond political parties, it is clear that the Thai system is wrong.

I highly doubt Suthep or whatever other person or party is going to/can change that.

[LivinLOS]

But you weren't here before Thaksin, and that's why most people are obsessed with the man; they simply don't know anything else.

If Abhisit was truly more democratic he would have been elected in a general election with a mandate from the people. He wasn't. He never has been. He came to power after a deal with the most corrupt faction in Thai politics and a judicial coup.

When an election was called the people again chose a Thaksin affiliated government.

Save the allegations of vote buying by Thaksin parties only, that is one of the main reasons why the Friends of Newin faction was recruited by the Democrats.

^^^ This..

I am certainly no fan of the cult of Thaksin, but no matter what you think of him, within the rules of the game of thai democracy he has won every election for a long long time.

Only by outside interference and very hazy legal meddling (and of course tanks) was he ever removed from office and even then he was straight back in the next round.

You can dislike him all you want, point out his rice subsidies or 30b healthcare is populist politics and vote buying.. But its popular !! Thats democracy. If they cant see that these handouts are bankrupting the country and reducing the governments ability to actually subsidize things thats their lack of insight. I guess when no one helps in any way the slightest help, however miss guided is remembered.