Scotland to become independent in March 2016 if referendum passes

[Chicog]

From my perception, the clear majority of Scots would rather stay in the Union. The trouble is that if they all think that, they may not bother turning up to vote.

The Secessionists are quite passionate, so they will definitely turn out.

Could be interesting.

inclined to agree

Same scenario when they have votes in the states on gun control.

No it isn't, they're all bought off by or scared of the Gun Lobby.

Edited February 18, 2014 by Chicog

[Chicog]

From my perception, the clear majority of Scots would rather stay in the Union. The trouble is that if they all think that, they may not bother turning up to vote.

The Secessionists are quite passionate, so they will definitely turn out.

Could be interesting.

That will probably be the same with the UK referendum on the EU.

I think that's the reverse, I suspect the majority will be the passionate ones.

[rajyindee]

There is a precedent; but not in the way you mean. When what is now the Republic of Ireland became independent and left the UK, the UK continued to exist.

I think Ireland gained independence before the EU came into being, not really a precedent. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland ceased to exist.

Prior to Irish independence it was the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland; afterwards it became the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

As Great Britain is a geographical term, not a political one, and includes Scotland there may have to be a slight name change again, but the political entity of the UK will still exist.

That's an assumption. As you say, there is no precedent. The "Great Britain" part of the name was formed by the Acts of Union in 1707. Will the remainder of the UK be called something like the United Kingdom of England and Northern Ireland?

As I said, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland did not cease to exist, it became the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

True, the EU did not exist at that time, but the League of Nations did.

After Irish independence the UK remained a member of the League of Nations and the Irish Free State (later the Republic of Ireland) had to apply for membership, which was granted.

That is a precedent.

The Act of Union, 1707, formed the political entity of the Kingdom of Great Britain.

The Act of Union, 1800, added Ireland to the Union to form the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

Great Britain and Ireland are the geographical names for the two largest islands of the British archipelago.

All of which is somewhat moot.

No one from the EU has made the slightest suggestion that if Scotland leaves the UK that the membership of the remainder of the UK, whatever it's called, is in any doubt.

It is the new country, an independent Scotland, which will have to apply for membership.

Well, if The Irish Free State is the precedent ... they encountered no great problems joining The League of Nations and they kept the Pound Sterling ...

[7by7]

True, Ireland did not encounter any problems joining the League of Nations; but it was not automatic; they had to apply.

Just as an independent Scotland will have to apply to join the EU.

Ireland after independence did not keep Sterling.

Although the Irish pound was, by choice of the Irish government, tied to Sterling until Ireland joined the European Monetary System in 1978 and the UK opted out.

The Irish pound was abolished when Ireland joined the Euro.

[Chicog]

Well if Scotland can cadge as much money as Ireland did, they'll be doing well, but of course, as we know, there are consequences if you don't spend it wisely.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies deleted.

[sms747]

Can we English people have a referendum to find out if we want Scotland in the United Kingdom?

can we have one about being in the disastrous EU? there is NO chance that the Scots will vote to leave the union.

[Basil B]

It is really down to one thing, Salmond's SNP is a single issue party, and when the Scots realize that independence is an ill thought out proposition they will turn on Salmond and the SNP.

The fact is, who is going to make the rest of the UK share out it assets, and by what formula? as they say possession is 9/10ths of the law.

Splitting up the NHS, pensions and welfare, fire service, police, inland revenue, customs and excise, the army, the navy, the air force, the list is endless and the administrative costs are going to be astronomical.

Then you think of national companies, are they going to split or continue to trade in both countries, with Scotland out of the EU it will make managing these companies a lot more difficult, charities will be even worse off as many get government assistance.

One thing for sure is if the Scots do vote yes they will be the biggest losers.

[7by7]

It is really down to one thing, Salmond's SNP is a single issue party, and when the Scots realize that independence is an ill thought out proposition they will turn on Salmond and the SNP.

For their sakes I only hope the Scots realise this before the referendum, not find out after independence and have to come to the remainder of the UK begging to rejoin the union!

One thing for sure is if the Scots do vote yes they will be the biggest losers.

Indeed; the UK as a whole is greater than the sum of it's parts. England, Wales and Northern Ireland will lose something if Scotland leaves the union; but nowhere near as much as Scotland will.

[Basil B]

Another factor, I am assuming much of Eire legislation has to shadow the UK, not the other way around so the Scots will also have consider what is happening south of the boarder and act accordingly particularly if they want an open boarder, not exactly the Independence they want.

For an open boarder they would have to apply to join but I see it being in the rest of the UK's interest that they are allowed to do so anyway and be part of the UK & Eire free travel arrangement.

Another issue is if Scotland was outside the EU those using specialized hi tech equipment, would not be able to expect a service engineer to turn up in few hours with a fully equipped service van from south of the boarder, as there will be such issues as "Customs Duty" and possibly even work permits to sort out.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Basil B

[Chicog]

Another factor, I am assuming much of Eire legislation has to shadow the UK, not the other way around

Why would you assume that? They are a sovereign country with their own currency.

Obviously a few of the sensible laws exist in both countries, but as far as I know there is absolutely no legal obligation on Ireland to make any law because the UK has one.

[Richard W]

... there is absolutely no legal obligation on Ireland to make any law because the UK has one.

There may be no obligation, but there is the ever-present threat of the Common Travel Area being abolished. If the Irish Republic legalised heroin, one would promptly find a significant customs presence along the border. Similarly, too discordant a policy on the presence of foreigners would result in the Republic being excluded from the Common Travel Area.

Similarly, if an independent Scotland chose to use or shadow the British pound, it could not have an independent fiscal policy. Actually, the argument that Britain's fiscal policy should not be tied to that of France and Germany also applies within the UK - I'm surprised Scotland wouldn't benefit from having its own fiscal policy. Possibly the effective counter-arguments are the fear of unsafe pairs of hands and the costs of foreign exchange.

[GentlemanJim]

So what happens to all of us Scots who hold British Passports if Scotland votes for independence? What happens to our Children's nationality rights for those born here in Thailand? I for one think the Union is the way ahead. Too many Scots have watched too many movies and are still bearing either a 700 year old or a 300 year old grudge. Whatever happened in the past, it is what it is now and Scotland does very well out of the Union. Where should the English grudges start, Italy, Denmark, Norway, Germany, France? It's all water under the bridge. Independence....Big mistake.

[Chicog]

... there is absolutely no legal obligation on Ireland to make any law because the UK has one.

There may be no obligation, but there is the ever-present threat of the Common Travel Area being abolished. If the Irish Republic legalised heroin, one would promptly find a significant customs presence along the border. Similarly, too discordant a policy on the presence of foreigners would result in the Republic being excluded from the Common Travel Area.

Similarly, if an independent Scotland chose to use or shadow the British pound, it could not have an independent fiscal policy. Actually, the argument that Britain's fiscal policy should not be tied to that of France and Germany also applies within the UK - I'm surprised Scotland wouldn't benefit from having its own fiscal policy. Possibly the effective counter-arguments are the fear of unsafe pairs of hands and the costs of foreign exchange.

But you said "I am assuming much of Eire legislation has to shadow the UK".

I think you're wrong. But now it seems that you do, too. What they do for convenience has nothing to do with legal obligation.

By the way, Kate Moss at the Brit Awards appealed to the Scots to "Stay with us".

I bet that's driven a few hundred thousand into the arms of the secessionists.

[Basil B]

So what happens to all of us Scots who hold British Passports if Scotland votes for independence? What happens to our Children's nationality rights for those born here in Thailand? I for one think the Union is the way ahead. Too many Scots have watched too many movies and are still bearing either a 700 year old or a 300 year old grudge. Whatever happened in the past, it is what it is now and Scotland does very well out of the Union. Where should the English grudges start, Italy, Denmark, Norway, Germany, France? It's all water under the bridge. Independence....Big mistake.

Even more modern history shows that only a few years grudges can be buried and forgot, take Germany for instance...

As for the Passport issue Scotland will have to issue their own, but first they will need to decide who is Scottish, their will be a lot more duel nationals.

As my grandfather was Scottish I do hope I will be able to apply for Scottish Nationality...

[Basil B]

... there is absolutely no legal obligation on Ireland to make any law because the UK has one.

There may be no obligation, but there is the ever-present threat of the Common Travel Area being abolished. If the Irish Republic legalised heroin, one would promptly find a significant customs presence along the border. Similarly, too discordant a policy on the presence of foreigners would result in the Republic being excluded from the Common Travel Area.

Similarly, if an independent Scotland chose to use or shadow the British pound, it could not have an independent fiscal policy. Actually, the argument that Britain's fiscal policy should not be tied to that of France and Germany also applies within the UK - I'm surprised Scotland wouldn't benefit from having its own fiscal policy. Possibly the effective counter-arguments are the fear of unsafe pairs of hands and the costs of foreign exchange.

But you said "I am assuming much of Eire legislation has to shadow the UK".

I think you're wrong. But now it seems that you do, too. What they do for convenience has nothing to do with legal obligation.

By the way, Kate Moss at the Brit Awards appealed to the Scots to "Stay with us".

I bet that's driven a few hundred thousand into the arms of the secessionists.

I am not sure on Eire legislation but one thing for sure where it is not harmonized, it does cause big issues, just take the abortion laws of Eire as one instance.

Another issue will be the postal service, international post costs more and takes longer, as postal deliveries are more rural in Scotland the cost to deliver letters and parcels is disproportional to that of the UK and internet service to remote homesteads just does not exist.

[Chicog]

... there is absolutely no legal obligation on Ireland to make any law because the UK has one.

There may be no obligation, but there is the ever-present threat of the Common Travel Area being abolished. If the Irish Republic legalised heroin, one would promptly find a significant customs presence along the border. Similarly, too discordant a policy on the presence of foreigners would result in the Republic being excluded from the Common Travel Area.

Similarly, if an independent Scotland chose to use or shadow the British pound, it could not have an independent fiscal policy. Actually, the argument that Britain's fiscal policy should not be tied to that of France and Germany also applies within the UK - I'm surprised Scotland wouldn't benefit from having its own fiscal policy. Possibly the effective counter-arguments are the fear of unsafe pairs of hands and the costs of foreign exchange.

But you said "I am assuming much of Eire legislation has to shadow the UK".

I think you're wrong. But now it seems that you do, too. What they do for convenience has nothing to do with legal obligation.

By the way, Kate Moss at the Brit Awards appealed to the Scots to "Stay with us".

I bet that's driven a few hundred thousand into the arms of the secessionists.

I am not sure on Eire legislation but one thing for sure where it is not harmonized, it does cause big issues, just take the abortion laws of Eire as one instance.

Another issue will be the postal service, international post costs more and takes longer, as postal deliveries are more rural in Scotland the cost to deliver letters and parcels is disproportional to that of the UK and internet service to remote homesteads just does not exist.

It's all by choice my son.

[7by7]

As my grandfather was Scottish I do hope I will be able to apply for Scottish Nationality...

If they follow the route Jack Charlton took when he was the Ireland manager, all you'll need to qualify as Scottish is step foot over the border and drink a pint of Belhaven 80/-!

[Basil B]

As my grandfather was Scottish I do hope I will be able to apply for Scottish Nationality...

If they follow the route Jack Charlton took when he was the Ireland manager, all you'll need to qualify as Scottish is step foot over the border and drink a pint of Belhaven 80/-!

I do hope so...

[evadgib]

David Bowie wants 'em to stay...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-26284106

Edited February 21, 2014 by evadgib

[Skint]

David Bowie wants 'em to stay...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-26284106

Between that and what his son said they done a cracking job

[Ace of Pop]

I only see Scotland as "See You Jimmy" ,Russ Abott, Rab C Nesbitt, Bagpipes and Old Bacon Face, non of whom i can understand when they speak.

[Basil B]

I only see Scotland as "See You Jimmy" ,Russ Abott, Rab C Nesbitt, Bagpipes and Old Bacon Face, non of whom i can understand when they speak.

And blokes in skirts...

[ABCer]

Can we English people have a referendum to vote on if we want Scotland to remain in the United Kingdom? It seems to be all one way traffic. All these people getting referendums. English people never get referendums for anything.

Silly boy, English people need no such thing as referendum. Not for anything.

Because they are United!

On a more serious note, not being English, British or a Scott, I really do not see much advantages in this latest tendency to go independent or bust.

I may be wrong but somehow it never happens. And to me an independent Scotland makes as much sense as independent Kosovo, or independent Palestine or independent South Sudan, or ... the list goes on. Culturally and politically they may be different but Economically all these are not viable.

Edited February 22, 2014 by ABCer

[nontabury]

I've always thought that the Scots were justified in requesting a vote on this issue, as Salmonds and the SNP have always stated the original agreement to create the Act of Union in 1706 was not taken by the majority of the Scottish people, only by a small number, mostly the rich and landed.

So what will happen if there is a NO vote, will the SNP accept the democratic wish of the Scottish people. Well, not according to Alex Salmonds the leader of the nationalist, he has already gone on record as saying they will make another attempt in a few years time. So again we will be left in limbo. In the meantime the rest of the UK, who have never had the opportunity to vote on this issue ( and this includes the English people in 1706 ) will just have to accept the union, even though, according to numerous opinion post carried out in England and Scotland, a larger percent of the English, as opposed to the Scots, would favour separation.

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[Basil B]

I've always thought that the Scots were justified in requesting a vote on this issue, as Salmonds and the SNP have always stated the original agreement to create the Act of Union in 1706 was not taken by the majority of the Scottish people, only by a small number, mostly the rich and landed.

So what will happen if there is a NO vote, will the SNP accept the democratic wish of the Scottish people. Well, not according to Alex Salmonds the leader of the nationalist, he has already gone on record as saying they will make another attempt in a few years time. So again we will be left in limbo. In the meantime the rest of the UK, who have never had the opportunity to vote on this issue ( and this includes the English people in 1706 ) will just have to accept the union, even though, according to numerous opinion post carried out in England and Scotland, a larger percent of the English, as opposed to the Scots, would favour separation.

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As I said before, Alex Salmond is leading a single issue party... and has no plan "B".

He has nailed his colours to the mast of a sinking ship, probably even super glued his feet to the deck, he will go down with his ship.

[StreetCowboy]

I've always thought that the Scots were justified in requesting a vote on this issue, as Salmonds and the SNP have always stated the original agreement to create the Act of Union in 1706 was not taken by the majority of the Scottish people, only by a small number, mostly the rich and landed.

So what will happen if there is a NO vote, will the SNP accept the democratic wish of the Scottish people. Well, not according to Alex Salmonds the leader of the nationalist, he has already gone on record as saying they will make another attempt in a few years time. So again we will be left in limbo. In the meantime the rest of the UK, who have never had the opportunity to vote on this issue ( and this includes the English people in 1706 ) will just have to accept the union, even though, according to numerous opinion post carried out in England and Scotland, a larger percent of the English, as opposed to the Scots, would favour separation.

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25 years' time. It was agreed that in the case of a No vote, the issue would be dropped for 25 years.

[nontabury]

I've always thought that the Scots were justified in requesting a vote on this issue, as Salmonds and the SNP have always stated the original agreement to create the Act of Union in 1706 was not taken by the majority of the Scottish people, only by a small number, mostly the rich and landed.

So what will happen if there is a NO vote, will the SNP accept the democratic wish of the Scottish people. Well, not according to Alex Salmonds the leader of the nationalist, he has already gone on record as saying they will make another attempt in a few years time. So again we will be left in limbo. In the meantime the rest of the UK, who have never had the opportunity to vote on this issue ( and this includes the English people in 1706 ) will just have to accept the union, even though, according to numerous opinion post carried out in England and Scotland, a larger percent of the English, as opposed to the Scots, would favour separation.

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25 years' time. It was agreed that in the case of a No vote, the issue would be dropped for 25 years.

Sorry! You are wrong, the issue of separation will not be dropped, what they will demand is another referendum in 25 yrs, even though the Scottish people as a whole will have made their decision in 2014. They will still keep harping on about the subject, in other words they have no intention of accepting the decision of the Scottish electorate. What is a fact, is that they will achieve more division amongst the Scottish people. So much for narrow minded Scottish Nationalism.

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[Chicog]

There is nothing to stop the Scots voting Salmond and the SNP out, is there?

[nontabury]

There is nothing to stop the Scots voting Salmond and the SNP out, is there?

This is a special referendum, not the same as a normal election, were the electorate can go back to the polling station in 4/5 yrs and basically change their mind. I cannot imagine the rest of the UK Agreeing to accept them back, once the Scots realise that the grass is no greener in a separate country.

In the event of a yes vote, I'm sure those Scots who vote NO will accept the democratic wish of the electorate, unfortunately if the vote goes against the SNP they will not.

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