Child's Nationality

[tourleadersi]

Hi.

I was wondering if anyone might help to dispell some rumours that are going around (perhas only in my head, but they're still going around!)

I am married to a Thai and was wondering what would happen if we are fortunate to have a child? Will that child be automatically be granted UK nation status? I know we have to register the birth with the Embassy but their website is so ambiguos I really can't understand it at times!

Rumours I have heard include 'If you married her in Thailand then the child will only be eligible for Thai nationality'.

Any advice is much appreciated.

T

[Dragonman]

Hi.

I was wondering if anyone might help to dispell some rumours that are going around (perhas only in my head, but they're still going around!)

I am married to a Thai and was wondering what would happen if we are fortunate to have a child? Will that child be automatically be granted UK nation status? I know we have to register the birth with the Embassy but their website is so ambiguos I really can't understand it at times!

Rumours I have heard include 'If you married her in Thailand then the child will only be eligible for Thai nationality'.

Any advice is much appreciated.

T

The website of the Embassy Consular Section seems to outline the requirements and you can download the application form.

Basically you can obtain Dual Citizenship for the child, plus a passport.

[Scott]

It's my understanding that children can have dual citizenship up until the age of majority. The Thai gov't will then ask them to declare their nationality. For men this means military conscription. I am not sure how this works with the UK, but with the US, you can declare Thai nationality and you still don't lose your US citizenship.

If your concerned about the UK being ambiguous, Thailand is even more confusing. Just look at the people with dual nationality (Malasian & Thai) in the South. Then there are the Hilltribe people, born in Thailand who aren't citizens.

There is also an old law that affects some people that says the father must be Thai for the child to be a Thai national. This has changed, but those born at the time (up until quite recently), aren't citizens of Thailand--they can, however, apply for citizenship, which they may or may not be granted.

[Donz]

Yes the kid can be granted UK national status, I can get it also because one of my parents are british. But i choose not to

[GuestHouse]

It depends to some extent on your own nationality status.

If you, the British Parent, were born in the UK then YOU hold the Nationality status of "British Other Than By Descent" and your child would inherit the nationality Status of 'British By Descent".

If you were born out side of Britain to one or more parents who were born inside Britain then YOU would hold the nationality status of "British By Descent" and WOULD NOT pass your nationality to your child.

Your child receives Thai nationality from it's mother and can maintain this, together with its British Nationality throught life.

However, if there are any questions at all regarding the nationality status of the mother, then you may need to consider going back to the UK for your wife to give birth.

Example: If YOU are British By Descent, and your wife is from one of the ethnic minorities in Thailadnd you might want to consider the risk of your child becoming stateless.

Edited May 8, 2006 by GuestHouse

[greenwanderer108]

...It's my understanding that children can have dual citizenship up until the age of majority. The Thai gov't will then ask them to declare their nationality. For men this means military conscription. I am not sure how this works with the UK, but with the US, you can declare Thai nationality and you still don't lose your US citizenship.

...

I assume you understand that the age of majority for US dual citizens is 18 and the Department of State requires dual citizens (as effect of birth to two different national parents) to declare and choose one nationality after 18 years of age. This is ofcourse if they know about it, several immigrants who aquired a green card have found ways to evade the system, but it seems to even catch up with many of them, particularly those who reside in the states a long time and their other passport expires, seems the Department of State enforces their will via the embassy..

Last time I did my visa at immigration, there was an old Thai lady also doing a visa, she chose to keep her American greencard and stay on in Thailand on one year visas under Non-o (thai relative) status, so I assume it was the Department of State that made her denounce Thai citizenship...

[BKK90210]

Last time I did my visa at immigration, there was an old Thai lady also doing a visa, she chose to keep her American greencard and stay on in Thailand on one year visas under Non-o (thai relative) status, so I assume it was the Department of State that made her denounce Thai citizenship...

That's funny. How can they made her denounce her Thai citizenship when she hasn't acquired the US citizenship yet? A person holding a Green card is not a US citizen yet, therefore she's still a Thai citizen.

[autonomous_unit]

Greenwanderer, did you actually have this happen to you?

It contradicts what I have seen on the US Department of State website when I was looking into this topic. It clearly stated that dual-citizenship was possible via birth and did not have to be renounced at adulthood. It did, however, talk about some of the drawbacks such as possibly being caught between contradictory national service requirements that would make you a traitor in one country or the other (foreign military service, for example), or lesser problems with not being able to exercise your rights as a US citizen while traveling in the jurisdiction where your other citizenship is recognized.

As I understood it, the US would recognize (and hold you to) your US citizenship and they don't really care what other citizenship you hold. Likewise, they assume the same might happen to you in the opposite sense when you travel to the other country.

Note, I think it is technically impossible to retain dual citizenship when naturalizing as an adult, because part of the oath of US citizenship involves renouncing your allegiances to foreign powers. But I've only heard that from friends who have naturalized; I am no lawyer...

[Jasmine]

Talking of rumours. Does anyone know anything about male luk kreung and military service?

I heard that if you have a son who was born outside of Thailand they are automatically discounted from it ?

My husband has 3 brothers and non of the 4 of them have done military service so I'm not sure if it is even compulsary???

Anyone know anything about it?

[samran]

...It's my understanding that children can have dual citizenship up until the age of majority. The Thai gov't will then ask them to declare their nationality. For men this means military conscription. I am not sure how this works with the UK, but with the US, you can declare Thai nationality and you still don't lose your US citizenship.

...

I assume you understand that the age of majority for US dual citizens is 18 and the Department of State requires dual citizens (as effect of birth to two different national parents) to declare and choose one nationality after 18 years of age. This is ofcourse if they know about it, several immigrants who aquired a green card have found ways to evade the system, but it seems to even catch up with many of them, particularly those who reside in the states a long time and their other passport expires, seems the Department of State enforces their will via the embassy..

Last time I did my visa at immigration, there was an old Thai lady also doing a visa, she chose to keep her American greencard and stay on in Thailand on one year visas under Non-o (thai relative) status, so I assume it was the Department of State that made her denounce Thai citizenship...

Greeny, too many spliffs or the baby keeping you up at nights? You are way off on this one.

Check out this link:

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html

Second paragraph, second sentence....what does it say?

U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another

That is the state department speaking.

You are a wannabe journo aren't you? Check your facts before you publish.

[fanta rood]

Talking of rumours. Does anyone know anything about male luk kreung and military service?

I heard that if you have a son who was born outside of Thailand they are automatically discounted from it ?

My husband has 3 brothers and non of the 4 of them have done military service so I'm not sure if it is even compulsary???

Anyone know anything about it?

I'd also like to know that. I'd like to know what the exceptions and rules are for military service in Thailand. I'd like to know what happens if one of the rules are broken. Do you have to give up one nationality? Where can I find an english or thai website about this law

Edited May 8, 2006 by fanta rood

[greenwanderer108]

First off,

let me apologize for what I'm about to do...bust the bubble of a powerful thaivisa administrator

Anyway Samran, you're English, so you can't be too hard on yourself.

How I became aware of Thai-US dual national policy is directly via the Thai embassy in Washington D.C.. When I furst turned 18, I inquired with them as of how to take advantage of my rights since my mother was Thai, even though she had been deceased for 5 years at that time.

They sent me the information along with overtly telling me that if I were to proceed with applying for Thai nationality via the embassy's jurisdiction, I would have to give up my rights as an American national, since I had already turned 18 then.

Here is the basis. American government (dep of state) officially gives two reason where nationality is lost for an American dual national.

1. Recieving or Applying for Naturalization after age 18

and

2. Taking an oath to a foreign state after the age of 18

For reference, you can see this INFORMATION ABOUT DUAL NATIONALS OF USA

As you can see, these are broad, but how this connects to American / Thai dual nationality is that Thai nationality requires males after the age of 18 to take an oath to the country via military service.

If I had satisfactorily completed the required military service in a Thai highschool before I was 18, perhaps I would meet the requirements to retain my Thai nationality without forfiting my US nationality.

However, I had grown up / finished highschool in the US with no Thai exposure / experience prior.

Therefore, people who acquired dual nationality since birth have an easier job evading / bending the laws without as much hassle...

As you can see, the age of majority (18) has to be considered to each individual situation, particularly in situations where the parents procrastinated the dual national process.

Rule of thumb : Take advantage of the child's dual nationality ASAP, and you/him/her will have less hassles / limitations when he/she has reached the age of majority.

PS,

my son qualifies for American citizenship via Consular Birth Report Abroad (CBRA) under INA Act 301 and 308, which basically says that out of wedlock (not married) as long as one of the parents is a citizen (not just a national) meaning passed a certain amount of physical presence in the USA requirements, the child is garunteed Nationality / Passport (granted the fees and other documentation)

However, under such ammended acts (Out of Wedlock), if in the case the embassy interviewer is within reasonable doubt (i.e. bad hair day), is in authority to request DNA/Paternity testing...an extra expense but nevertheless, ultiamte proof confirming via science.

I know the process like the back of my hand, even though I have yet to go to the first ever interview mid-June. Paranoya always seems to surface, but atleast I have the constitution behind me on this one. Anyone else with experience of the CBRA interview, please let me know how it went.

[GU22]

It's my understanding that children can have dual citizenship up until the age of majority. The Thai gov't will then ask them to declare their nationality.

Not so. Thais have been able to have dual nationality since sometime in the 1990's

However, a male with dual Thai/UK (for example) nationality may be subject to Thai military service, if he is resident in Thailand.

The UK also allows dual nationality, but I don't know about the US.

[samran]

OK Greeny, if we are going to use second rate legal websites to argue our case, then:

http://www.richw.org/dualcit/law.html

Loss of citizenship (INA § 349, 8 USC § 1481)

Section 349 of the INA [8 USC § 1481] specifies several conditions under which US citizenship may be lost. These include:

becoming a naturalized citizen of another country, or declaring allegiance to another country, after reaching age 18;

serving as an officer in a foreign country's military service, or serving in the armed forces of a country which is engaged in hostilities against the US;

working for a foreign government (e.g., in political office or as a civil servant);

formally renouncing one's US citizenship before duly authorized US officials; or

committing treason against, or attempting or conspiring to overthrow the government of, the US.

The primary effect of recent developments in the US regarding dual citizenship has been to add the requirement that loss of citizenship can only result when the person in question intended to give up his citizenship. At one time, the mere performance of the above (or certain other) acts was enough to cause loss of US citizenship; however, the Supreme Court overturned this concept in the Afroyim and Terrazas cases, and Congress amended the law in 1986 to require that loss of citizenship would result only when a potentially "expatriating" (citizenship-losing) action was performed voluntarily and "with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality".

On 16 April 1990, the State Department adopted a new policy on dual citizenship, under which US citizens who perform one of the potentially expatriating acts listed above are normally presumed not to have done so with intent to give up US citizenship. Thus, the overwhelming majority of loss-of-citizenship cases nowadays will involve people who have explicitly indicated to US consular officials that they want to give up their US citizenship.

By the way, I'm Australian, not English. But we all sound the same to you Americans anyway. If you are going to find a way to supremely insult me, then you have found it.

[greenwanderer108]

OK Greeny, if we are going to use second rate legal websites to argue our case, then:

http://www.richw.org/dualcit/law.html

Loss of citizenship (INA § 349, 8 USC § 1481)

Section 349 of the INA [8 USC § 1481] specifies several conditions under which US citizenship may be lost. These include:

becoming a naturalized citizen of another country, or declaring allegiance to another country, after reaching age 18;

serving as an officer in a foreign country's military service, or serving in the armed forces of a country which is engaged in hostilities against the US;

working for a foreign government (e.g., in political office or as a civil servant);

formally renouncing one's US citizenship before duly authorized US officials; or

committing treason against, or attempting or conspiring to overthrow the government of, the US.

The primary effect of recent developments in the US regarding dual citizenship has been to add the requirement that loss of citizenship can only result when the person in question intended to give up his citizenship. At one time, the mere performance of the above (or certain other) acts was enough to cause loss of US citizenship; however, the Supreme Court overturned this concept in the Afroyim and Terrazas cases, and Congress amended the law in 1986 to require that loss of citizenship would result only when a potentially "expatriating" (citizenship-losing) action was performed voluntarily and "with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality".

On 16 April 1990, the State Department adopted a new policy on dual citizenship, under which US citizens who perform one of the potentially expatriating acts listed above are normally presumed not to have done so with intent to give up US citizenship. Thus, the overwhelming majority of loss-of-citizenship cases nowadays will involve people who have explicitly indicated to US consular officials that they want to give up their US citizenship.

By the way, I'm Australian, not English. But we all sound the same to you Americans anyway. If you are going to find a way to supremely insult me, then you have found it.

If a Thai-American male dual citizen were to do military service for Thailand after he reached 18, thus swearing oath to Thai military/government, and the Department of State was aware of the act, it is grounds for you to lose dual nationality. If the Department of State were to make a case against such an individual, there is no due-process for you to preserve your dual nationality without investing in some costy lawyers/processes, which usually end up in ammendments to the constitution anyway.

For my case, I would be prone to have lost my original American nationality if I had applied for my birth given right as a Thai national after I turned 18. Even though I had the right as a Thai national from being born to a Thai mother, my parents nor I were aware and thus never pursued when I was a child...Then again, we didn't have Thaivisa then.

Regarding parents/children of dual nationality now who do have access to internet/resources...It is essential that you take advantage of your rights before the age of majority, otherwise you're screwed and 'have to choose one or the other' according to the officials word to me.

BTW Samran, I always assumed you were English cause you talked about living there, didn't mean to offend you...Weren't Australians intitially English convicts, rapists, and murderers???

[samran]

We were IRISH convicts, petty thieves and murders (of the English) and proud of it.

As for your concern, if you did military serivce, you either have to become an officer in the Thai army, or be a grunt in the regular army at war with the US.

As you don't have a degree, the first is unlikely to happen, and Thailand and the US are close allies, so that nixes that eventuallity. If either then did happen, then you'd potentially still have to beg for the state department to revoke your nationality, unlikely though, as they'd probably want you to spy for them...

serving as an officer in a foreign country's military service, or serving in the armed forces of a country which is engaged in hostilities against the US;

In either case, you'd probably be earning more money that you do now, by the sounds of it......

[greenwanderer108]

In either case, you'd probably be earning more money that you do now, by the sounds of it......

And Sidartha would have had a much more comfortable life had he kept his title/ranking as a prince in the palace rather than suffer and beg as a layman...

Even in the case of pursuing my life-long dream career for beer-rice money (writing) I'm still better off financially than atleast half of the entire Thai military (not counting those taking under-table payments)

As far as making good money in the American military, you might as well been the devil with a fiddle in a hot alabama bar...Have you ever had an intelectual conversation with a ranking officer, let alone a grunt in the military? It's almost as bad as trying to philosophise with a re-born again Christian on a missionary trip from Nambia!

I'd prefer not to be a robot, if I can help it. Besides, I like the liberty of not being someone's puppet and not being one of those dependent on mass weapon sells or natural resource raping for a paycheck....

Speaking of Irish...what I find intriguing is the fact that there are tens of millions all over the world with irish decent (or atleast claim to it) yet the actual population of the homeland Ireland is about as much if not less than the entire western flank of the Chao Phraya (Thonburi)

Don't need a degree to figure this one out

Anyhow, back on the topic...all I'm telling you Samran is the policy that is actually enforced for dual nationality cases after the age of majority in my own country as I have been informed by officials (as opposed to word at the pub).

If you are in absolute disbelief, you are better off to argue the point with an American embassy official whos job is to enforce the will of the US government / Dep. of state. I'm sure they will tell you this same information regarding dual nationality and age of majority.

Australia may be more tolerant as far as multi national nationals, etc., but I think you'll will not find many cases at all of American Thai male dual citizens over the age of 18...Perhaps there are a few, but chances are they are not in the direct spotlight of Department of State and would be best to stear clear if they know what's best....then again, as you said spies could very well exist under such circumstances...

Thai females have no obligation to military so might have an easier time...However, if they were naturalized as an adult, it can complicate things as well. Like I said, I did run into a Thai lady at Thai immigration who gave up her Thai citizenship in order to retain her naturalized American...even though she still chose to stay in Thailand on one year visas...she must have been 50 atleast. The immigration lady told me that such cases are abundant where the Thais are forced to choose one or the other...

Edited May 9, 2006 by greenwanderer108

[sylvafern]

It's my understanding that children can have dual citizenship up until the age of majority. The Thai gov't will then ask them to declare their nationality.

Not so. Thais have been able to have dual nationality since sometime in the 1990's

However, a male with dual Thai/UK (for example) nationality may be subject to Thai military service, if he is resident in Thailand.

The UK also allows dual nationality, but I don't know about the US.

What about a male with dual Thai/other citizenship (NZ in my case) born in Thailand but living out of the country at the age of conscription. Theroetically, called they be called back to do service?

Not that it's likely to be a problem as, who knows if it will even be the case by the time he reaches 21. Also, it's a shady business and easy to get out of if you know the right info and the right people. My b/f had contacts that told him if he transfered his Ta bien baan (?) to another amphur then when he went to do the thing where you choose a black/red ball (or whatever it is) he would get whatever colour it is that exepmpted him from service as there is only a certain number of places per amphur and they had already been filled in that amphur for that year.

[tourleadersi]

Wow everyone1 I'm a newbie on this site and your response has been overwhelming! Many thanks for helping out with my question, good to see it stirred up quite a debate.

'In the arena of human life the honors and rewards fall to those who show their good qualities.'

[Dragonman]

There have already been Supreme Court decisions which have meant trying to frighten people off, is much more effective than pursuit by the Government. The informal policy is "don't get involved unless people ask", and then try and put obstacles with no backing of Immigration Case Law.

There is in fact no way the Government would interfere in a citizen obtaining Thai Citizenship, and there would have to be great reasons vice versa. Don't speak to Government officials, speak to an Immigration Attorney. The Law often does not follow Government policy.

[Thai-Aust]

It's my understanding that children can have dual citizenship up until the age of majority. The Thai gov't will then ask them to declare their nationality.

Not so. Thais have been able to have dual nationality since sometime in the 1990's

However, a male with dual Thai/UK (for example) nationality may be subject to Thai military service, if he is resident in Thailand.

If the underlying person was born and live overseas, i.e. never has his name on the House Registration, and has no intention to live in Thailand for good, then he can get away with it. But then, what is the point of having Thai citizenship but don't have any desire to live in the country.

The UK also allows dual nationality, but I don't know about the US.

What about a male with dual Thai/other citizenship (NZ in my case) born in Thailand but living out of the country at the age of conscription. Theroetically, called they be called back to do service?

If he was born in Thailand and, more likely than not, had his name on the House Registration, then this is a criminal offense not to report himself at the age of conscription. This could lead to a serious problem if he wants to go back and live in Thailand.

Not that it's likely to be a problem as, who knows if it will even be the case by the time he reaches 21. Also, it's a shady business and easy to get out of if you know the right info and the right people. My b/f had contacts that told him if he transfered his Ta bien baan (?) to another amphur then when he went to do the thing where you choose a black/red ball (or whatever it is) he would get whatever colour it is that exepmpted him from service as there is only a certain number of places per amphur and they had already been filled in that amphur for that year.

The possiblity to pick up red card, exemption from the service, is very slim.

Edited June 9, 2006 by Thai-Aust