Abhisit: Democrats determined to evict Thaksin regime

[Zolt]

At this point, the Democrats need to think long and hard about what they are really trying to achieve.

If they somehow manage to get the current regime to step down, or trigger a coup, the following will happen.

- Massive and violent protests by the Red Shirts. Expect the same numbers as 2010 but a lot more accumulated bitterness.

- Puea Thai or whichever name it's called then will just win back power in the next elections.

Anti-Thaksin Forces have 2 options at this stage:

- Abandon all pretense of democracy and push for an authoritarian regime.

- Actually make a serious effort at winning votes in the North and East. And no, this is not just about vote buying. I'm absolutely sure the Democrats have as much if not more financial backup than PT at this point. Just think about it: They've got practically all of the Bangkokian Hi-so to middle class behind them, as well as the super-rich families behind at least a couple of banks and major Thai businesses. All PT has is one washed out billionaire who had a large part of his assets seized, and if he had any business acumen, would start to seriously question his return on investment for the money he's throwing in this country.

Dems have to completely review their communication and policy to reach out to these people, and yes it's an uphill battle and their history doesn't help. Dismissing 2/3rd of your countrymates as uneducated puppets of the Thaksin regime is not going to help you win votes among them. The first step would be to actually respect the result of elections, and bide their time until the last one. Use their role as opposition party to highlight PT's policy flaws and how they fail to actually improve the livelyhood of their electoral base, and THEN propose their own policies on the issue. And, these policies will have to have an element of demagogy in them in order to attract votes. They do need to beat Thaksin at his own game if they want to win back Thailand, and his game is not just corruption but also communication.

Edited November 29, 2013 by Zolt

[DrTuner]

All PT has is one washed out billionaire who had a large part of his assets seized, and if he had any business acumen, would start to seriously question his return on investment for the money he's throwing in this country.

The Risk/Reward ratio is still good for him, since on the reward side stands complete control over the country. Only when the risk is sufficiently increased (meaning he'll be immediately beheaded upon sight in Thailand) will he stop. I reckon that risk is now growing.

[aaacorp]

But but but.... on thaivisa they said it was a spontaneous movment and democrats are not the instigators of this undemocratic plea. It s so funny to see the pro democrats trying to convince here that getting rid of election is the best way to have a democracy

[Thai at Heart]

You still fail to see what is going on in reality, despite the dozens of TVF posters who have went out of their way to inform you of reality.

You are just wandering around in your own little world seeing what you want to see, reading what you want to read and thinking what your red Thai family have told you what to think.

Why don't you allow your brain to have a little independence and freedom of thought.

You really are brainwashed.

I see the reality very clearly - on both sides of the divide. The reality is that an unelected mob is trying to usurp power by undemocratic extra parliamentary measures. I find that unacceptable. So would you in your country. Why do you find it acceptable over here?

Don't. Nor did I find the terrorist insurgency in 2010 acceptable. Did you ?

Dam_nit, I'm sliding back to principles which makes me a "red apologist" I guess, although I'm not to be because I don't believe Yingaling has done squat and this government needs to go.

However, what was the cause of that 2010 debacle? Track it back to 2006, and you would be correct. 2010 didn't happen in a vacuum, like they woke up one day and decided to torch the city. What we are seeing right now, which is a replay of 2008, is exactly the lead up which caused 2010.

To cherry pick 2010, like a stand-alone incident, is disingenuous.

Why choose 2006 as an arbitrary date? All problems Thaksin stem from the 2001 assets concealment case.

It goes back to 97 and the democrats accepting the IMF money for in return for liberalising among a few things,,telecoms.

After that,I think thaksin and a few others vowed never to let politicians mess with their wealth accumulation.

[philw]

Poor old Mark, he just doesn't get it. He's so intelligent, educated, smart, and yet he just cannot win power legitimately because the people prefer the Shinawatra family to him. so now he is giving tacit support to Thug-sabarns extra parliamentary mob. Patience Mark, the election is under 3 years away, and then you will have another chance to persuade the Thai people that your squeaky clean, government of the intelligent, is really what they want, rather than a decent health system, a decent price for their rice, an end to exploitative rents from landlords etc etc. Good luck with that, Matk, sincerely.

You still fail to see what is going on in reality, despite the dozens of TVF posters who have went out of their way to inform you of reality.

You are just wandering around in your own little world seeing what you want to see, reading what you want to read and thinking what your red Thai family have told you what to think.

Why don't you allow your brain to have a little independence and freedom of thought.

You really are brainwashed.

leave him alone I'm sure his wife is very pretty and totally un brain washed He's seen them suffer under nasty hiss from BKK and his thai family have told him Taksin really good man give us 500 baht every election we all rich now. That poor poor misunderstood man who only wants to help us all and sacrifice himself for us. Here in red shirt land where I live I've heard it all and been bombarded with hate and red radio speeches but of course if I or my family ever dared speak our minds against big brother then likely we would be beaten senseless like some poor sod who dared do that while drunk in our village.

SO why stay only because we've put 30 years into our home here and our children and are thick headed enough to say they wont get us down. ITs been very hard living in an almost red prison and I think the local commandant of our local red brigade knows our true feelings but my wives family have been here for last 100 years or so so as long as we ignore them they mostly ignore us. I can tell you if we dared put up a non red shirt flag on our house it would be burnt down within days.

We can most are or were good nice people but totally brainwashed or frightened by years of red thug propaganda. We hope this uprising succeeds and those who live around us will become disillusioned with Taksin. If not then sadly well have to leave after 30 years and doubt we could find anyone wanting to live here now its a red shirt village except local red shirt overlord since our house is probably one of best in the area. Ill burn it down and poison the land first before I let that vile thug who locally overlords all get it whatever the cost to us financially rather than give him satisfaction of having it dirt cheap.

One day i hope he and his thugs will be tried for nearly beating to death a local who drunk dared speak against big brother but i doubt it.

I'd like a lot more detail before I believe this.....................

Can you supply ???

[connda]

Poor old Mark, he just doesn't get it. He's so intelligent, educated, smart, and yet he just cannot win power legitimately because the people prefer the Shinawatra family to him. so now he is giving tacit support to Thug-sabarns extra parliamentary mob. Patience Mark, the election is under 3 years away, and then you will have another chance to persuade the Thai people that your squeaky clean, government of the intelligent, is really what they want, rather than a decent health system, a decent price for their rice, an end to exploitative rents from landlords etc etc. Good luck with that, Matk, sincerely.

I have news for the people of Thailand - red, yellow, or any other color:

People of Thailand! You demand Democracy! I applaud you all.

However! In order to have a functioning Democracy, you need to allow the representatives of you country to serve their entire terms without forcing them out of office by coup, demonstration, or take-over (peaceful or otherwise).

If you don't like what you have, make better decisions in the ballot box come election day.

[connda]

Dam_nit, I'm sliding back to principles which makes me a "red apologist" I guess, although I'm not to be because I don't believe Yingaling has done squat and this government needs to go.

However, what was the cause of that 2010 debacle? Track it back to 2006, and you would be correct. 2010 didn't happen in a vacuum, like they woke up one day and decided to torch the city. What we are seeing right now, which is a replay of 2008, is exactly the lead up which caused 2010.

To cherry pick 2010, like a stand-alone incident, is disingenuous.

To stop at 2006.... .... (it was all crap when the coup happened)...

What is the way forward?

The current system is broken beyond repair (imho) though I would love to be proven wrong. The only way forward I see is for change of a type that nobody really wants. It must begin by strengthening the checks and balances, making corruption laws that include major financial penalties, and real jail time. Then making sure there s a charter in place that supports the basic concepts of democracy (and not democracy in the form of majoritarianism which some posters on here see as democracy but doesn't fall anywhere near the definition ofmodern liberal democracies.) The need to end money politics and the vast corruption from the top down is paramount to the short term goal of majoritarianism now.

Now, there's a statement that applies to just about every government currently in existence, although political philosophies may differ from country to country.

[wolf5370]

Poor old Mark, he just doesn't get it. He's so intelligent, educated, smart, and yet he just cannot win power legitimately because the people prefer the Shinawatra family to him. so now he is giving tacit support to Thug-sabarns extra parliamentary mob. Patience Mark, the election is under 3 years away, and then you will have another chance to persuade the Thai people that your squeaky clean, government of the intelligent, is really what they want, rather than a decent health system, a decent price for their rice, an end to exploitative rents from landlords etc etc. Good luck with that, Matk, sincerely.

Wasn't one of the first things PTP do when gaining office to cancel the free healthcare system to go back to the old failed Thaksin 30baht health care system? How many farmers, not middle men, not land owners, but subsistence farmers, have profited at all from the rice pledging scheme that has all but killed the Thai rice export business (and bankrupt the government banks)? What protection did PTP give you with regard to explosive rents up here in the Red heartland Pedr?

Having said that, I think the Dems should be sitting back and watching rather than putting themselves in the way of a potential dissolution charge. Abhisit is bandwagon jumping - like Suthep (but at least he had the balls to go all in). I can't see any real upside for Abhisit in this regard - I doubt he is going to increase his vote numbers - at best he will have a much easier opposition next time around.

YEP! They had the balls alright. When they killed 90 people before and closed the airports. Yep the had the balls then too.

Wow couldn't be more out of context if you tried. I also mentioned bandwagon in there somewhere, feel the need to bring up the battle of little big horn?

[wolf5370]

leave him alone I'm sure his wife is very pretty and totally un brain washed He's seen them suffer under nasty hiss from BKK and his thai family have told him Taksin really good man give us 500 baht every election we all rich now. That poor poor misunderstood man who only wants to help us all and sacrifice himself for us. Here in red shirt land where I live I've heard it all and been bombarded with hate and red radio speeches but of course if I or my family ever dared speak our minds against big brother then likely we would be beaten senseless like some poor sod who dared do that while drunk in our village.

SO why stay only because we've put 30 years into our home here and our children and are thick headed enough to say they wont get us down. ITs been very hard living in an almost red prison and I think the local commandant of our local red brigade knows our true feelings but my wives family have been here for last 100 years or so so as long as we ignore them they mostly ignore us. I can tell you if we dared put up a non red shirt flag on our house it would be burnt down within days.

We can most are or were good nice people but totally brainwashed or frightened by years of red thug propaganda. We hope this uprising succeeds and those who live around us will become disillusioned with Taksin. If not then sadly well have to leave after 30 years and doubt we could find anyone wanting to live here now its a red shirt village except local red shirt overlord since our house is probably one of best in the area. Ill burn it down and poison the land first before I let that vile thug who locally overlords all get it whatever the cost to us financially rather than give him satisfaction of having it dirt cheap.

One day i hope he and his thugs will be tried for nearly beating to death a local who drunk dared speak against big brother but i doubt it.

I'd like a lot more detail before I believe this.....................

Can you supply ???

What more details do you need, his name and address?

[wolf5370]

At this point, the Democrats need to think long and hard about what they are really trying to achieve.

If they somehow manage to get the current regime to step down, or trigger a coup, the following will happen.

- Massive and violent protests by the Red Shirts. Expect the same numbers as 2010 but a lot more accumulated bitterness.

- Puea Thai or whichever name it's called then will just win back power in the next elections.

Anti-Thaksin Forces have 2 options at this stage:

- Abandon all pretense of democracy and push for an authoritarian regime.

- Actually make a serious effort at winning votes in the North and East. And no, this is not just about vote buying. I'm absolutely sure the Democrats have as much if not more financial backup than PT at this point. Just think about it: They've got practically all of the Bangkokian Hi-so to middle class behind them, as well as the super-rich families behind at least a couple of banks and major Thai businesses. All PT has is one washed out billionaire who had a large part of his assets seized, and if he had any business acumen, would start to seriously question his return on investment for the money he's throwing in this country.

Dems have to completely review their communication and policy to reach out to these people, and yes it's an uphill battle and their history doesn't help. Dismissing 2/3rd of your countrymates as uneducated puppets of the Thaksin regime is not going to help you win votes among them. The first step would be to actually respect the result of elections, and bide their time until the last one. Use their role as opposition party to highlight PT's policy flaws and how they fail to actually improve the livelyhood of their electoral base, and THEN propose their own policies on the issue. And, these policies will have to have an element of demagogy in them in order to attract votes. They do need to beat Thaksin at his own game if they want to win back Thailand, and his game is not just corruption but also communication.

This is actually becoming a standard argument now (not saying I particularly disagree with it though). It does however depending a lot of assumptions. The most risky of which is : 1. The coalition parties will still be on board; and 2. That PTP will stay as a single entity under the same leadership.

This is why neither side wants an election anytime soon, I suggest. Although I think a new year election would be good for the people - and let the sticks lay where they land! (would also see an end to the amnesty and senatorial processes bills which would take the fuel out of the in both camps).

Be a miracle for that to come to pass though - here's wishing for an Xmas miracle!