I've Got a Degree in Rocket Science!

[culicine]

What SA says, you aren't qualified to be legally employed as a teacher.

I don't think the restrictions go far enough,

I think,

Foreign teachers employed in Thai schools should be qualified to teach in their home countries.

And fully qualified teachers will work at a government school teaching 50 kids in a class for 25-40,000 baht a month? Never in a million years!

I would, and I have 10 years teaching experience in UK comprehensive schools.

I think you will find you are in the minority. Besides that, most qualified teachers I've met have not finished their contract in my school - even though we only have 20-30 kids per class in airconditioned rooms. Most had trouble adjusting to the different teaching culture here.

The way I see it, and given the teacher shortage in this country:

For conversational english, the minimum should be a TEFL qualification; then a BA/BSc, then BEd, and teachers paid accordingly - depending on qualifications.

In more specialised programs (in high school), teachers should have a minimum of a Bachelor degree in the subject they are teaching; then teaching qualifications in their field.

I finished my teaching qualification while I was working in Thailand. The main thing I got from my course was a theoretical framework for teaching, but most of the practical experience I already had....I wouldn't over-rate teaching qualifications, as teachers who are experienced and dedicated can still do a good job in the classroom.

[old china hand]

As always there is some truth in what everyone (almost) is saying. The degree/no degree issue has been around for a long time and governments keep changing their policies based on the demand for teachers. I have a Masters in Education and have been teaching and running program in teaching English since 1976, some for reugees in the US and some for people in Thailand, Cambodia and Vietnam. Does having a degree in something make you a good English Teachers? obviously not, but neither does having a degree in English. Being an English teacher and teaching English versus teaching people to speak English are not the same skill set. "Degreed" teachers have gone through almost 6000 hours of college classes, but how much of that was directly related to teaching someone to speak English, even for English majors --- very little. What a degree does show is the ability to focus on education and complete tasks, which is certainly a concern to hiring schools. Can a NES be trained to teach English - absolutely. Can he do it with no training - maybe, but his students will suffer while he is learning what to do. I am also a Scuba Instructor. Is anyone who dives qualified to teach diving - obvioulsy not. The fact that you can do something does not mean that you can teach it. When I took my 120 (ish) hour Instructor course, very little of it as about diving. My instructor used to say, if you didn't already know how to dive, you wouldn't be in this course. This course is designed to shows you how to teach. While knowing something about an area doesn't mean you can teach it, teaching you to teach it is not so difficult when you already know the content. There are lots of degreed people who don't know how to teach and what to do in a classroom to facilitate learning. There should be a place for both groups (degreed/non-degreed) in teaching people to speak English because both already know the subject (people who speak correctly already know grammar even if they don't know the labels for it). The important part is knowing what to do in class to benefit your students. In some countries you can buy a degree and/or a TESOL certificate. The difference is if you buy a degree in Sociology, people probably won't know it's a fake just by talking to you, but if you buy a TESOL Certificate and get a job, you still don't know what to do when you walk into your first classroom.

[Lucie]

What SA says, you aren't qualified to be legally employed as a teacher.

I don't think the restrictions go far enough,

I think,

Foreign teachers employed in Thai schools should be qualified to teach in their home countries.

Spot on !

Why should Thailand employ people to teach English who do not have the appropriate qualifications and/or experience.

The days of the back packer, early retiree or long term "holiday maker" earning some extra money by teaching are hopefully (and thankfully) long gone.

Many people think because they are a native English speaker, or have done some training or managing of some kind in the past that they can suddenly teach a complex subject without any experience whatsoever.

Teaching is a profession, requiring knowledge and skill; and an understanding of the subject being taught.

Economics should not dictate a lowering of standards. Teachers are very underpaid in many countries. The country with the best schools and pupil education is Finland - where teaching is recognized as a key profession and remunerated accordingly. New Finnish teachers also undergo a lengthy period of probation, with in class assessors and feedback sessions.

"Appropriate qualifications and/or experience"... and/or... exactly. The word "appropriate" here is key - a degree in engineering is NOT appropriate to teaching English. It may be that someone with a degree in engineering can ALSO teach very well (I work with such a person) but it does not necessarily follow.

Likewise, just being a native speaker doesn't mean you can teach either. Some others on here are commenting that as native speakers, they are automatically better than non-natives. Not true. Being able to DO something does NOT mean that you are able to TEACH it. Teaching is a separate skill from speaking a language.

The best English teachers I've encountered in my school: a British man with a degree in engineering, a US man with no degree, an Irishman with a degree in computing, a Filipino woman with a teaching degree, a Thai woman with a teaching degree, and myself, an English woman with no degree.

Some of the worst: an eloquently spoken Englishman with a degree in English literature, but no idea how to take things in slow steps for ESL students; a Thai woman with a masters in teaching English, and an American man with a degree in ICT.

In most professions, and most countries, it's not too much trouble for employers to interview a few candidates and select their employee based on a variety of considerations. Thai employers' hands are tied with regulations that value any degree above experience or ability. Admittedly, in an ideal world, all teachers should have teacher training, but in that ideal world they would also be paid highly, trusted, and given stable working conditions in which to practise their art. This is far from an ideal world, unfortunately.

[pastafarian]

Actually you couldn't be more wrong! I came here 6yrs ago on a 1yr sabbatical with my 'good' job left open for me yet I'm still here and definitely not for the money as I earn about 1/5 of what I did in the UK. I'm not a UK qualified teacher but I've been teaching for 6yrs in Thailand in two different schools and most of the teachers I've met haven't been what you would call qualified either but that doesn't mean we are incapable of teaching.

You are right about one thing though and that is that teaching is a vocation and it is one which I'm good at, there are hundreds of Thai students that have benefitted from my lessons and many more that will continue to do so.

Well you are an exception! Most PGCE qualified teachers I've met are interested in International school jobs only with salaries upwards of 80k per month and I totally understand why. A decent salary with small class sizes and a professionally run school, why would you even consider less than half that salary to teach large classes of unruly kids in a school run by amateurs?!

You've never been in an International school then?
As for the teaching, it's a vocation, not about the money.
If all you care about is the money, you shouldn't be in the teaching profession.

[SlyAnimal]

As a quick aside, when I say that teachers without degrees should be allowed to teach in Thailand, I'm not advocating that they are as good as teachers with degrees (just by virtue of being a NES), nor that teachers with degrees non related subjects (like myself) are going to be as good at teaching as teachers with a BEdu. Schools should be able to decide between the teachers based on their CVs + interviews, with the higher qualified teachers receiving the higher paying jobs.

My point is that there is a shortage of NES teachers in Thailand, and to remedy this, they should allow a greater range of teachers to teach. However, I do think that TESOL Certificates should be checked by schools (There are a huge amount of online only certificates available, which aren't worth the paper they're written on), and that the schools themselves should always conduct interviews with the teachers. As much as I hate the idea of having to do demonstration lessons when applying for a job, these are also a good way to ensure that teachers can teach.

There are a lot of teachers out there who are clueless, however that should be the job of the school to filter them out, not the government, as many teachers who don't have degrees are brilliant teachers. But the main thing is that schools should be given the choice, particularly the poor countryside schools (Who can often only attract a lower quality of Thai teachers compared to wealthy city schools, let alone qualified NES teachers), otherwise the gap between the rich and the poor will continue to increase.

[Dennisdob]

Dear Madgee,

I think the cages need to be rattled! I had to evaluate teachers twice a year for 12 years and I have found different teaching methods that are formulated through experience and not through a book. The best education is through experience and not methodology by what some publisher that feels it needs to be in a book.

We have come into a society that feels certified is qualified! In my experience as a PhD and a Doctorate in Education, I find certified does not mean qualified. Certified requires documentation that you have completed methodology and required core subjects. Qualified refers to the fact that the person has great communicative skills as well as a complete delivery process to the students. Personally, I prefer a person with a C average GPA than a person within A average GPA. I find the average GPA student has much more to offer through communicative skills and relates so much better to the students.

I have taught Chinese teachers in order to teach their students back in China. Their government has a tremendous push on to learn the English language. I have also had Korean teachers that wished to become more proficient in English. Teaching the Chinese in Thailand is different than teaching the Chinese in China. The prejudice still stands in China also due to age requirements. This is also the case in South Korea. In retrospect in Thailand there are many prejudice that do exist, however, this is not moving them forward but basically backward.

If you are truly a good teacher, and show compassion, love, and dedication I feel that you will be successful but you must show patients when going into the schools. It can be extremely frustrating because you have to familiarize yourself with the interview process. During the process of most countries you are there to tell about yourself and your experience but in Thailand it is basically the opposite. The interviewing process and documentations in Thailand are on a totally different level than what You and I may be familiarized. Some administrators are threatened by the possibility that you may end up taking their jobs or someone else's job that is important to them and one should keep that in mind when interviewing for a position in Thailand.

Reason you did not get an acceptance or rejection letter is due to the fact that they are basically not-knowledgeable to the correct procedures of an interview process. In our countries it is mandatory that you recognize the applicant however, we are not in our countries we are in Thailand. I once received an email that I was a top candidate for an international school to become the administrator and would call within several days. I began to find that rather amusing since they are clueless to the correct procedures on how one should deliver the message. Their message was sent through a translation agency. Please do not become offended but rather try to be more understanding towards the Thai way, they mean no disrespect, they just don't understand the procedures.

The number one way to receive a position is not what you know but who you know!

Thanks,

Ph. D

[Toscano]

A University bachelors degree is required as a basic for Thai Teachers , the same is required for foreign teachers .

No matter that the Thai degree level is no more than British GCSE O level taken by 16yr olds . Merely attending attending a university degree course can

result in a degree . My Thai niece 21 has just graduated with a degree in English , but to my amazement seems to scarcely understand or speak a word of

English . I lived in Italy before coming to Thailand , where I gave serious tuition to university students , a teacher who had graduated at highest level

and to business people . I do not have a degree , so would not legally be permitted to teach in a Thai school . I learnt to speak , read and write fluent

Italian with Italian friends , on my own and watching discussion programmes on Italian television . Speaking a language is essential , just learning verbs and

grammar is useless . French used to be a required subject in English schools , verbs and grammar ; I guess that is the reason why so few English people

lean to speak French .

[tingtongteesood]

Degrees are just bits of paper. They just show your family has more money and sent you to study more. Doesn't mean anything. I have met many degree holders who are complete morons and many people without degrees who are awesome. A degree is completely meaningless unless it is relevant to your field of work.

[dao16]

Well, I have a degree and I have lots of teaching experience. (Look at me brag!) Honestly, though, in my opinion, while my degree certainly taught me a lot about the subject areas I studied and about how to think analytically and critically in general, it was getting teaching experience that really mattered for teaching, plus my interest in language. I guess the degree is an indication that a person can learn and stick with a long-term plan/schedule, but the craft of teaching requires classroom hours, plain and simple.

[NeverSure]

1. Many, many rural Isaan schools have never had an NES. If the children are taught "English," It is by a Thai, in Thai, and that Thai may not be able to speak the language. Many Thai teachers were taught English by Thai uni teachers, and none of them can speak English. Many can read and write it quite well but they don't know how it sounds.

2. It is obvious that the poorest children in Isaan are being left behind because the "qualified" teachers don't choose an Isaan village to live and work, especially for the money offered.

3. How could anyone convince me that an NES with a love for children, and who could pass a TEFL course would not be better than what those kids have now? At least that teacher knows how the words are pronounced!

4. How did we all learn to speak English? Was it from someone with a PHD in English? No, it was from our mothers and friends and neighbors and we were fluent at a very young age.

5. We learned to speak before we learned to write, much less learned the rules of grammar. Perhaps someone at home taught us more such as the alphabet and some basic reading from children's books, but not until after we could understand and speak the language. We had full immersion in the English language from day one.

Answer this for me. When there are poor children in Isaan who will leave school never having learned to speak English at all and never having been exposed to an NES, how could an NES who passed the TEFL not be much better for them?

Cheers.

Edited December 3, 2013 by NeverSure

[FiftyTwo]

There are a lot of teachers out there who are clueless, however that should be the job of the school to filter them out, not the government, as many teachers who don't have degrees are brilliant teachers. But the main thing is that schools should be given the choice, particularly the poor countryside schools (Who can often only attract a lower quality of Thai teachers compared to wealthy city schools, let alone qualified NES teachers), otherwise the gap between the rich and the poor will continue to increase.

Allowing the schools free choice would merely allow them to select the foreigners who look best (white, young, female) and work cheapest. They usually don't give a rats arse about the quality of teaching. Which is why the government needs to set a minimum level of qualification, which I still suggest would be a license to teach in their own country.

[Madgee]

Many thanks to all for your words of wisdom!

Extract:
Reason you did not get an acceptance or rejection letter is due to the fact that they are basically not-knowledgeable to the correct procedures of an interview process. In our countries it is mandatory that you recognize the applicant however, we are not in our countries we are in Thailand. I once received an email that I was a top candidate for an international school to become the administrator and would call within several days. I began to find that rather amusing since they are clueless to the correct procedures on how one should deliver the message. Their message was sent through a translation agency. Please do not become offended but rather try to be more understanding towards the Thai way, they mean no disrespect, they just don't understand the procedures.


The number one way to receive a position is not what you know but who you know!

Thanks,
Ph. D

Maybe I worded my 'rant' slightly wrong concerning acknowledgement of my application.

The acceptance or rejection letter that I thought I might get should have come from the person to who I applied? These people were native English speakers acting on behalf of their institution and I am pretty certain they get paid extra for doing this, so surely an acknowledgement wouldn't be so hard. Oh well.

Again, many thanks to all.

[bundoi]

1. Many, many rural Isaan schools have never had an NES. If the children are taught "English," It is by a Thai, in Thai, and that Thai may not be able to speak the language. Many Thai teachers were taught English by Thai uni teachers, and none of them can speak English. Many can read and write it quite well but they don't know how it sounds.

2. It is obvious that the poorest children in Isaan are being left behind because the "qualified" teachers don't choose an Isaan village to live and work, especially for the money offered.

3. How could anyone convince me that an NES with a love for children, and who could pass a TEFL course would not be better than what those kids have now? At least that teacher knows how the words are pronounced!

4. How did we all learn to speak English? Was it from someone with a PHD in English? No, it was from our mothers and friends and neighbors and we were fluent at a very young age.

5. We learned to speak before we learned to write, much less learned the rules of grammar. Perhaps someone at home taught us more such as the alphabet and some basic reading from children's books, but not until after we could understand and speak the language. We had full immersion in the English language from day one.

Answer this for me. When there are poor children in Isaan who will leave school never having learned to speak English at all and never having been exposed to an NES, how could an NES who passed the TEFL not be much better for them?

Cheers.

1. Is this topic just about spoken English ? Non-Thai speakers are able to help the most basic and the comparatively advanced students. But the vast majority of students in the middle ground (of any language and from any country) need explanations in their mother tongue, for obvious reasons.

2. I am not an expert on Isaan so I won't comment.

3. The scenario you advocate was the MO up until 2 years or so ago, so clearly it is a contributory factor to what you see as the problem, not a solution to it.

4&5. Immersion language learning is normal for 1st languages all over the world, but rare for 2nd or 3rd languages. At school I studied 3 languages (other than my native English), in each case my native language, not the target language, was used as the language of instruction.

Epilogue. Please see my reply to 1.

[Ulic]

Certified vs Qualified. I take qualified every time;

[Scott]

A post which is critical of spelling/grammar has been deleted along with a reply.

Generally, such comments earn the poster a formal warning and suspension.

I can understand grammar and spelling errors, but I often wonder how some people can consider themselves an expert on anything when they can't read a simple topic and stick to it. Really quite sad.

[culicine]

There are a lot of teachers out there who are clueless, however that should be the job of the school to filter them out, not the government, as many teachers who don't have degrees are brilliant teachers. But the main thing is that schools should be given the choice, particularly the poor countryside schools (Who can often only attract a lower quality of Thai teachers compared to wealthy city schools, let alone qualified NES teachers), otherwise the gap between the rich and the poor will continue to increase.

Allowing the schools free choice would merely allow them to select the foreigners who look best (white, young, female) and work cheapest. They usually don't give a rats arse about the quality of teaching. Which is why the government needs to set a minimum level of qualification, which I still suggest would be a license to teach in their own country.

Going by that criteria, then 98% of teachers would be non-native speakers....and i don't think teaching qualifications are equivalent across countries. A Filipino, for example, can't just jump on a plane and got to teach in the UK or Australia, without some form of upgrading of their qualification. If there are qualified native speakers available, that's great, but they aren't needed for teaching in the majority of Thai school here, where they mostly teach grammar and conversation. That material could be covered in a TEFL course. Unless schools are willing to pay 60K minimum a month, there will not be too many BEd's teaching in government schools. Then there is the Thai style of school management which manages to frustrate the majority of teachers, causing many to leave before their contract is finished.

[aussiestyle1983]

So no, the whole degree v. non-degree debate is BS. You do not need a degree in anything to be a good teacher. There a plenty of non-degreed teachers with students who are more capable and produce better grades than teachers with degrees in non-related fields such as engineering or plastic surgery. But this debate will always exist and there will always be jealousy, hypocrisy and stupidness shown as long as things regarding qualifications and pay scales remain they way they are. If non-native English speakers with degrees who get paid half of your salary have a go at you just remind them that you too are a visitor in Thailand and you do not make the rules. Tell them to take in up with management or the government and see how far they get.

Is 'stupidness' even a word?

This is rather humerous, albeit a bit sad. It is opinion not fact. You offer no credible evidence for your assertions. Pay scales reflect training and skills to a certain extent. The logic linking non-native English speakers with teaching and being a visitor in Thailand escapes me-it does however illustrate non-sequitur very nicely. On a positive note you have illustrated you "stupidness" with aplomb. Well done!

You are wrong. Where I worked, the pay scales are fixed and do not change (you get one set pay rise after 1 or 2 years, that is all). The foreign teacher pay scales are still the same as they were from 05-07 when I worked there. I am often in contact with many of the teachers I used to work with, and I visit whenever I am in town. Both native and non-native English speaking teacher's pay remains the same, including the huge difference between native and non-native English speakers. All non-native English speakers have degrees and get paid the same, and all native English speakers get paid the same whether they have a dozen PhDs or no higher education at all. That is fact. The pay scales at the school DO NOT reflect training and skills to any extent. I know it does not work like that at most places but it is like that where I worked and it is sad IMO. I guess this school doesn't believe in rewarding performance, dedication or recognise other things such as inflation and cost of living increases. I do know that Khai Dao now costs 10thb up from 5thb a few years ago and bus fares have risen so I for one would not want to be stuck at that school long term. And what I was linking (that you missed the point entirely) is that some of the non-native speakers who get paid less hold a grudge against the native English speakers who get paid more instead of holding the grudge against the locals who make this happen. Rather than holding a grudge against a fellow foreigner / visitor in the Kingdom for something they have no control over hold it against the ones that make it happen. BTW, Dr Robert, are you a Dr because you have a PhD from Khao San Uni?

[Scott]

This sub-forum is for teachers and is about teaching. Some of the nonsense that is allowed in other forums is not tolerated here. The grammar and spelling police is not welcomed unless that is the topic of the thread. Inflammatory remarks, such as either direct or indirect references to other posters as being stupid will result in suspensions.

You have been warned. Discuss a topic in a civil manner or post elsewhere.

[NeverSure]

Teaching is a gift, and isn't for everyone. I had some lousy teachers in school who had advanced degrees in education. I had some great ones, too. The great ones were gifted. We all have gifts but they are different.

The best teacher I ever had, had never studied "education." He was a concert pianist. He had graduated from the famous San Francisco Conservatory of Music. But he had never studied "teaching." He didn't have the core college credits. Still, he had the gift of explaining and showing what he knew, and he could blow any uni music professor away both in performance and in teaching.

He had a master's degree in piano performance.

I had taken 13 years of piano lessons when I met him. I dunno, I think I was about 19. Oh, I could play but the problem was that the certified "teachers" I had in public schools didn't get it. They didn't know how to get the mind focused. Ever really watch a concert pianist? When he's playing he looks like he's having an orgasm. He's almost out of body. He has transcended something.

I have a challenge for you. Simply count to 20 silently in your mind as fast as you can. Now you know that you are limited to a certain speed, even in your mind. Now drum your fingers on a table. You will drum much faster than you can count. Now teach someone to do that drumming, hitting the correct notes on a piano, but moving all over the place from one end of the piano to the other with both hands, almost out of the peripheral vision, and you begin to get the idea. Just begin.

After 13 years or so of struggle, this guy set me free. He knew how to explain it, demonstrate it, think it, and break through the barrier that holds most people back.

But the most important part was that he could do it. He had already become fluent, knew how he did it, and had a gift of demonstrating and explaining.

But even though he was a graduate of one of the best music conservatories in the US, he wouldn't be allowed to teach in a public grade school? How stupid is that?

[FiftyTwo]

Teaching is a gift, and isn't for everyone. I had some lousy teachers in school who had advanced degrees in education. I had some great ones, too. The great ones were gifted. We all have gifts but they are different.

The best teacher I ever had, had never studied "education." He was a concert pianist. He had graduated from the famous San Francisco Conservatory of Music. But he had never studied "teaching." He didn't have the core college credits. Still, he had the gift of explaining and showing what he knew, and he could blow any uni music professor away both in performance and in teaching.

He had a master's degree in piano performance.

I had taken 13 years of piano lessons when I met him. I dunno, I think I was about 19. Oh, I could play but the problem was that the certified "teachers" I had in public schools didn't get it. They didn't know how to get the mind focused. Ever really watch a concert pianist? When he's playing he looks like he's having an orgasm. He's almost out of body. He has transcended something.

I have a challenge for you. Simply count to 20 silently in your mind as fast as you can. Now you know that you are limited to a certain speed, even in your mind. Now drum your fingers on a table. You will drum much faster than you can count. Now teach someone to do that drumming, hitting the correct notes on a piano, but moving all over the place from one end of the piano to the other with both hands, almost out of the peripheral vision, and you begin to get the idea. Just begin.

After 13 years or so of struggle, this guy set me free. He knew how to explain it, demonstrate it, think it, and break through the barrier that holds most people back.

But the most important part was that he could do it. He had already become fluent, knew how he did it, and had a gift of demonstrating and explaining.

But even though he was a graduate of one of the best music conservatories in the US, he wouldn't be allowed to teach in a public grade school? How stupid is that?

Now stick that 'gifted guy' in a class with 40 inner city kids who don't want to be there, because that's what happens to REAL teachers.

Nice story, but inappropriate to this thread, teaching a specialised subject one on one, or with adults who want to learn is completely different to teaching the mob that is high school.

PS

I wouldn't let him teach in public grade school, he would most likely be useless at it.

Edited December 4, 2013 by FiftyTwo

[Scott]

Neversure, a very nice story indeed and much to be contemplated and learned from it. The problem is that when you try to govern an entire institution, such as the education program of a country, you have to make some decisions that will effect some individuals, but overall will result in greater achievement.

I would also note, that in Thailand, people with a particular skill can receive a waiver to teach. A very good friend of mine is a good example, he doesn't have a degree but he has been allowed to teach music at several international schools because of his skill and ability. No, he cannot teach a regular core subject, but they have been able to demonstrate a need for his particular talent and he's been given a work permit based on it.

The same is true of some of the traditional arts and crafts which are likely to be lost. The people that likely know them are pretty much uneducated folks, but they can be employed to teach them.

It's probably good that your teacher wasn't allowed to teach just anywhere. His talents needed to be expended on a select group of people. I might add that I probably wouldn't have benefited from studying under his tutelage at all, whereas for you it was a entirely different experience.

[Rhys]

How I heartily agree!

I've spoken, read, studied and taught in English for a great many years. My training before heading off to University and doing TEFLA training was in a technical area which involved a good few years of on the job training plus study overseas.

However, I do not hold a degree in rocket science or bee keeping, and therefore 'not acceptable' to Thai authorities as being fit or able to teach even basic English.

Heaven knows, this country needs a lot of people who can speak basic English, and that includes a lot of the Thai English teachers I've come across.

Sadly, the situation now in Thailand is that you cannot even volunteer to have English discussions in a temple, or amongst a group of people in one's village. The rationale is that we're doing some Thai person out of a job!

Regretably, the country will not improve its English standards the way it's going, and little wonder that Thailand is one of the lowest scorers in ASEAN countries in English ability.

Awh Linguistic imperialists....

[richard_smith237]

I would expect my Children to be Educated by someone who themselves are Educated.

Op: You were applying for positions you are not qualified for. You will not get thanks for wasting peoples time.

You may think that your life of experience has given you the tools to become a good teacher, and certainly you could probably occupy and entertain the children, but your life of experience has not given you the Education to become an Educator.

You may no like it, it may disappoint you and you may feel you are better than a 'piece of paper' (degree) suggests (and you may be right) - but there is a very good reason that a Degree is required.

[richard_smith237]

1. Many, many rural Isaan schools have never had an NES. If the children are taught "English," It is by a Thai, in Thai, and that Thai may not be able to speak the language. Many Thai teachers were taught English by Thai uni teachers, and none of them can speak English. Many can read and write it quite well but they don't know how it sounds.

2. It is obvious that the poorest children in Isaan are being left behind because the "qualified" teachers don't choose an Isaan village to live and work, especially for the money offered.

3. How could anyone convince me that an NES with a love for children, and who could pass a TEFL course would not be better than what those kids have now? At least that teacher knows how the words are pronounced!

4. How did we all learn to speak English? Was it from someone with a PHD in English? No, it was from our mothers and friends and neighbors and we were fluent at a very young age.

5. We learned to speak before we learned to write, much less learned the rules of grammar. Perhaps someone at home taught us more such as the alphabet and some basic reading from children's books, but not until after we could understand and speak the language. We had full immersion in the English language from day one.

Answer this for me. When there are poor children in Isaan who will leave school never having learned to speak English at all and never having been exposed to an NES, how could an NES who passed the TEFL not be much better for them?

Cheers.

While in my above post I commented how I would expect my children to be educated by someone who themselves are educated I also agree with NeverSure's comments above.

In the absence of something better - anything at all is better than nothing.

In this case, someone who wholeheartedly wants to be there and enjoys what they are doing can pass along some basic skills to children who might otherwise miss out completely.

In these cases, I think its fair enough that if they school can't fill the position by suitable person with the correct qualifications a NES may also be suitable.

[simon43]

I DO have a degree (post-graduate) in Rocket Science (University College, London), and I worked for many years in that profession. I have no teaching qualifications.

Several years ago in a moment of boredom, I applied for a teaching job in Myanmar. I was initially employed as a kindergarten teacher (because this was the 'poisoned chalace' of teaching, the kids fall asleep in 10 minutes if you're not doing a good job). I fared well and was then assigned to primary homeroom teaching, then also weekend primary classes, then adult IELTS exam preparation classes, then also adult technical English, academic English and Medical English. then Summer School, then... then...

Then they made me Vice-Principal of the school after 6 months working as a newbie teacher ....

Then within the year, I got a job as Headmaster at a new international school in Laos ....

I'm not blowing my own trumpet (honest!), but simply pointing out that with a good parental upbringing (my parents were both professors and my siblings were Cambridge graduates), a good education and an interest in continual learning and asking WHY - many people without formal qualifications in teaching/education have the ability and knowledge to teach ESL.

My comments are not intended to denigrate qualified teachers in any way. A formal ESL qualification (eg CELTA) will certainly provide the teacher with a more in-depth understanding of the how's and why's of teaching ESL.

But lifelong learning and experience (IMHO) is more valuable than a piece of paper.

Unfortunately, many educational departments and government bodies think otherwise, and insist on that piece of paper....

Simon

[bundoi]

But lifelong learning and experience (IMHO) is more valuable than a piece of paper.

I agree, with a few caveats...

A degree is not just a "piece of paper", it represents 3-5 years of study and everything that that entails,

"Lifelong learning and experience" is not incompatible with attending university and obtaining a degree,

Getting older is not necessarily the same as "lifelong learning and experience".

By the way, I enjoyed your trumpet-blowing, you have a lot to be proud of !

Re an earlier poster's view that university education discriminates against poorer families, I fully agree, at least in my home country: in my opinion there should only be one requirement for university entrance - ability.

[inutil]

As someone eternaly at the bottom rung of the ladder in EFL (degree, tefl, 8 years experience) i can tell you categorically that this is an image driven industry. Be honest with yourself. If you were a principal, who is going to make you look better in front of parents? The 65 year old grandad with a degree but looking to give back to the world, or the 23 year old girl fresh out of college and looking to change the world?

Sorry grandad. I know itll annoy you, it also does me given that im borderline your situation nowadays. But the reality is this:

at the bottom level youre an image. Youre interchangeable and thus entirely expendable.

If you fit the image, hooray! welcome to your low paid teaching gig! if you dont, you best have an extra qualification or experience that justifies why we're selling you to x-school. because you are a commodity and you have to be capable of being sold. If they cant sell you, then youre not getting on their books.

I know its obvious/cynical, but thats the reality. You dont fit the image, then you need something else? How about IELTS test tuition? Do you have a qualification in teaching that? What about a delta? Or experience teaching in public schools, or are you bilingual? These all help you set yourself apart. And honestly, its not hard at your age adding to your qualifications. Spend 2 months at a cram school getting serviceable thai and suddenly youre useful again. Its easssssy becoming employable. But you have to be at least a little honest about yourself to do it. This isnt a merit driven industry, its cosmetic. Merit only comes into action (i assume) at higher pay grades. If you want your foot in the door you supply something people need at the right price. If youre old that means you drop the wage demands, do some volunteer work at the school and get some experience, or better yet, learn some thai and start networking with people, (who, lets be blunt, will be interested in showing off their cultural depth by having a farang friend to show to their mates. Its not a bad thing, it lets you in the door. But its a cynical industry and thats the honest bullshit of it),

Good luck champ. And yes, im in full agreement. My having a degree adds nothing at all to my ability to teach english. My speaking english natively adds nothing at all to my quality as a teacher. I would sooner have a kid fluent in English from scandinavia teaching my kid english than me. Not only can he speak the subject and know it inside out, he also understands intuitively the barriers a second language learner faces as well as the techniques and skills to overcome it. Its like employing supermarket managers to football managers because they know how to lead people. Id rather have someone that knows what drills worked, what drills were effective and what drills on the pitch motivated him and his mates. Bring on the great sweep of non native instructors and lets raise standards by putting an end to this cosmetic bullshit.

ETA: yes, i might be half cut.

and Yes, thailand is screwed. Its way behind every other country ive taught in. Survival (very basic tourist) english wont save it.

Edited December 14, 2013 by inutil

[SlyAnimal]

Half cut you may be, but you do make a good point. There are a variety of factors schools look at, their importance differs from school to school, but everyone can make themselves more marketable in a few areas at least.

I'd say that the below make a difference to hiring attitudes of schools:

Skin colour

Nationality

Age

Personal appearance

Accent

Personality

Demeanor

Flexibility/Adaptability

Qualifications

Experience

Thai ability

Marital status

Time spent in Thailand

English ability

A lot of these we can't change, but some of them we can improve on. I believe that most schools look at the whole package, although some factors are more important than others (and some are non negotiable).

[bundoi]

@inutil you made a fun rant ;-) but i disagree with your basic premise...

outside of the rarefied atmosphere of very high fee international schools there is still a culture of respect for age in many parts of Thailand; the problem is that many of the aged westerners here are unpresentable, and uneducated to a sufficiently high level, and not unknown to like a glass or two too many; that's their prerogative and I don't criticise them for it, but I bin their applications for those reasons.

[simon43]

but I bin their applications for those reasons.

You bin applications from older teachers because you think (but have absolutely no information to verify), that they drink too much??

Simon