Suthep insists charter paves way for interim govt

[Timwin]

Red: "Thaksin Shinawatra founded the populist Thai Rak Thai (TRT) party in 1998 and became Prime Minister of Thailand from 2001 until 2006 when he was overthrown in a military coup. Thaksin has since lived in exile except for a brief visit to Thailand in 2008. He was convicted by the Supreme Court's Criminal Division for Holders of Political Positions of abusing his power to help his wife buy public land at an auction, and was sentenced to two years in jail."

Yellow: "Surayud's government was a controversial one (2006-2008). There was a significant worsening in perceived levels of corruption during his government. Surayud's Deputy Finance Minister, Sommai Pasee, was sentenced to jail for abuse of power. Surayud raised the military budget by 35% and was accused of economic mismanagement, rampant human rights abuses, and flip-flopping on numerous policies. Article 19 ranked Thailand as falling behind Cambodia and Indonesia in terms of freedom of expression.Thailand's economic growth rate slowed to the lowest level in five years and was ranked the lowest in the region."

Like two Mafia families...

[newcomer71]

Ratcatcher, these two pixes (post # 18) don't mean anything. Any soccer player may produce this gesture and certainly 150% of all politicians do...

As to the definition of fascism (post # 23) and how it fits who here in Thailand:

"a dictator having complete power,forcibly wishing to suppress opposition and criticism,..." certrainly does NOT fit Khun Suthep. Does he have complete power? Is he forcefully suppression opposing views? Looks much more like Taksin is the fallen guy, going for complete power and throwing litigations in the 100s of million Baht at anybody, who critizised him. All forgotten?

IMHO Taksin is quite similar to Berlusconi, who also would not want to let go and thought he is the next best thing since the invention of the wheel...

Now, we know, what happened to Berlusconi and what happened to Taksin.

As to Suthep being anti-foreigner, that is absolutely new to me. That Taksin didn't like foreigners is known and obvious: The weren' so easy to dupe and they weren't so easy to subdue. And stil aren't!

Sam M.

Hi Sam,

I agree on here, like I did in past week writing on many other topics:

Out Shin clan from any power position, they are a disaster for peaceful living in country and for democracy.

But... Allow me to include Suthep in the express mail to send out from political life in Thailand.

As per your questions:

Does he have complete power?

No, but you can feel the stink from far far away what he is planning. Get the power undemocratically, and lead the "People junta" (I remember some case like this in the past...).

Is he forcefully suppression opposing views?

What he did in last 7 days? Intimidating press, trying to let them air only his "movement" point of view...

As to Suthep being anti-foreigner, that is absolutely new to me. That Taksin didn't like foreigners is known and obvious.

Suthep has many times make clear his idea. "I don't respect foreigner. Foreigner media are all sided with Thaksin." and other nice pearls like that... Representing the old elite, be sure they HATE foreign interference in everything. So don't expect roses for foreigner working here.

By the way, it's only my humble opinion

Cheers!

[SamMunich]

Bunuel suggested:

A suggestion: look up the word " Fascist" or " Fascism" in Wikipedia, and learn what it means.
Then learn how to spell it!

_____________________________

Agreed, BUT:

Where I come from, we talk about it from first hand experience and we write it Faschismus instead of fascism. So you might be lenient on the additional "h".

And I don't have to look it up in Wikipedia, I know what it means since long ago. For a detailed view of what fascism stands for you can read William L. Shirer's "Rise and Fall of the III. Reich". That is one of two books, that are reference material for most research on the III. Reich. Sorry, it doesn't cover Mussolini as well, but then again, even though the expression "fascism" came from Italy, Mussolini was only second to Adolf. On second thought, not so much difference to today <g>...

And still I deny Suthep being a fascist. He is an old-style politician, but that is nothing bad in the eyes of most Thais.

Sam M.

[SamMunich]

Newcomer71 wrote:

Hi Sam,

As to Suthep being anti-foreigner, that is absolutely new to me. That Taksin didn't like foreigners is known and obvious.

Suthep has many times make clear his idea. "I don't respect foreigner. Foreigner media are all sided with Thaksin." and other nice pearls like that... Representing the old elite, be sure they HATE foreign interference in everything. So don't expect roses for foreigner working here.

By the way, it's only my humble opinion

Cheers!

_______________________________________________________________

Phew, looks like this is going to be a looong night...

I didn't know the quotes you attribute to Suthep. But then that only covers foreign press reports, not the foreigners, that live in Thailand. Taksin said something similar, and to some extend I can understand that view of both. When you look at what the foreign press writes about Thailand, most of it is BS. But it influences the public oppinion abroad. That is why Taksin hired that US lawyer Amsterdam (sp?).

And another thing in this regard: Most stuff published abroad is not nice to Thais, is critcal about what's going on here. Thais and all other Asians don't like to be exposed in that way. At the same time they struggle to get their house in order. And they don't want foreign interference via press reports,- because that is how they see it.

Westerners are used to being criticized, they say, even bad press is better than no press at all. Asians see it different. That does NOT say, nobody may blame Thailand for errors or faults they commit. But most times that is not even reported correctly and not in a way, that may help to mend the things, that are wrong.

Example: There is a report out since a few days, that some Thais deliver Burmese refugees to Asian slave-traders. That needs to be reported and the Thais concerned should be pointed out. And dealt with.

OTOH just today I did read a piece on a (foreign) bulletin board, that the succession to the throne is still not decided. That is crap in writing. First of all this is factually wrong and secondly that is of no concern to people outside Thailand (and Thais abroad). Period. Any Thai reading (and understanding) that will be angry at "the press".

Now coming back to Suthep:
I think he doesn't know exactly, how the setup will be, from which to proceed, when the Shinawatras have left Thailand (as he and many others hope). But that is beside the point, because by the time THEN some alternatives will crop up and only THEN will all people concerned need to think about how to best proceed. Many things can happen in the meantime, so a carefully thought out strategy might not fit, when the time comes.

The general direction is to create an interim government and create/write a constitution, that fixes all or most of the faults of the previous versions: vote-buying, corruption, nepotism etc., etc. For a limited time there might be a non-elected government, as it has happened many times before in Thailand. And most Thais can accept it... for a limited time, like 6 months! But it must lead to a better situation afterwards!

And last not least: Europeans have been trying out several forms of democracy for the last 150 to 200 years, so do the Americans. Womens voting rights are also only about 100 years old, the Swiss have several cantons, where it was introduced only some recent years ago.

In the end I don't care, what kind of a person Suthep is, because I am not in any way related to him. But I care about the funtion he fulfills at the moment, and that is to galvanize the opposition to the Shin clan into a more powerful union. I appreciate that, but that does not make me love him.

Can we agree on that?

Sam M.

[smedly]

Thai fascist leader Suthep "They are sending special forces and helicopters to arrest me!" Delusional, paranoid, mad.

you can post here all day long with this and that but one stark reality is very very obvious - Something has got to change, the political stage in Thailand is faulty, it's not the fault of the general population as they no not what they do, it's the fault of sitting governments going back many years that are able to abuse the office and cause all manner of dysfunction abuse and corruption which in turn creates rifts between ordinary people - the ability for sitting governments to do this must be stopped - governments must realise what it is to be elected and that they must work within a framework of rules and laws - if the correct rules are not in place then they need to be put in place to put an end to this cycle

Is Suthep the man that can lead Thailand to a working democracy and constitution ? - I don't know but they need to try something

If they don't know how to do it themselves which according to history is the case - then bring some experts from outside of Thailand to once and for all help them put an end to this

and although I keep saying it - the one single thing that would have avoided all of this is the requirement for a 2/3 majority in the house for all proposed changes to the charter and the constitution - none of this silliness would have happen if it had been the case - a very simple change but one that would change the political landscape in Thailand for ever

[HuaHinHarold]

Suthep has many times make clear his idea. "I don't respect foreigner. Foreigner media are all sided with Thaksin." and other nice pearls like that...

Hmmm... Do you have a link for that claimed quotation-marked quote that Google doesn't know about?

Google:

Your search - "I don't respect foreigner. Foreigner media are all sided with Thaksin." - did not match any documents.

[HuaHinHarold]

Bunuel suggested:

A suggestion: look up the word " Fascist" or " Fascism" in Wikipedia, and learn what it means.

Then learn how to spell it!

_____________________________

Agreed, BUT:

Where I come from, we talk about it from first hand experience and we write it Faschismus instead of fascism. So you might be lenient on the additional "h".

And I don't have to look it up in Wikipedia, I know what it means since long ago. For a detailed view of what fascism stands for you can read William L. Shirer's "Rise and Fall of the III. Reich". That is one of two books, that are reference material for most research on the III. Reich. Sorry, it doesn't cover Mussolini as well, but then again, even though the expression "fascism" came from Italy, Mussolini was only second to Adolf. On second thought, not so much difference to today <g>...

And still I deny Suthep being a fascist. He is an old-style politician, but that is nothing bad in the eyes of most Thais.

Sam M.

It's just hyperbole that the term is tossed around and feebly attempted to attach to individuals where the label is wholly unjustified.

It's become totally meaningless when it is so erroneously used to anyone for any cause.

.

Edited December 5, 2013 by HuaHinHarold

[HuaHinHarold]

Newcomer71 wrote:

Hi Sam,

As to Suthep being anti-foreigner, that is absolutely new to me. That Taksin didn't like foreigners is known and obvious.

Suthep has many times make clear his idea. "I don't respect foreigner. Foreigner media are all sided with Thaksin." and other nice pearls like that... Representing the old elite, be sure they HATE foreign interference in everything. So don't expect roses for foreigner working here.

By the way, it's only my humble opinion

Cheers!

_______________________________________________________________

Phew, looks like this is going to be a looong night...

I didn't know the quotes you attribute to Suthep.

.

You're not alone. Neither doesn't the largest, most powerful search engine in the world.

It sure would be nice that if people go to the trouble of actually using quotation marks to signify that the quote is verbatim, that they would include a link for such definitive claims.

Otherwise, one might suspect that such new comers to the forum were being disingenuous.

.

Edited December 5, 2013 by HuaHinHarold

[webfact]

UPDATE:
Article 7 'can work'
Pakorn Peungnetr
The Nation

Unelected PM could be legitimate: dean

BANGKOK: -- The Dean of the National Institute Development Administration's faculty of law, Banjerd Singkaneti, who is also a member of the People's Democratic Reform Committee (PDRC), said he believed an unelected prime minister, as stipulated in Article 7 of the Constitution, would follow the due process of the law, making the appointment legitimate.

The "People's Council", as described by PDRC secretary-general and protest leader Suthep Thaugsuban, has been widely criticised as an outdated solution, because it is designed to pave the way for a royally sponsored prime minister.

The option, which was last proposed and rejected before the government of Thaksin Shinawatra was brought down by a military coup in September 2006, was abandoned as it was considered undemocratic and would involve His Majesty the King in political decision-marking.

"Criticising us for resorting to Article 3 and 7 of the Constitution is like missing the point. We have to look at the root cause - that the government has lost legitimacy to run the country after attempting to pass a law pardoning those accused of corruption," Banjerd said. "The ruling Pheu Thai Party then rejected the Constitutional Court's ruling that the move to change the formation of the Senate is unconstitutional."

Banjerd said the government had also refused to withdraw the charter-amendment draft, which had already been forwarded for royal endorsement. If the King did not endorse the law within 90 days, Parliament could still pass the law with a majority vote.

"We have reached the point where we are able to exercise a constitutional right - according to Articles 69 and 70 - to depose a government that has lost legitimacy, both politically and legally. MPs and senators are our representatives and when they have lost legitimacy, we have to 'tear up' the power-of-attorney that handed them power and turn to Article 3, which stipulates that sovereignty belongs to the people.

"If the government quits and does not carry out its role as 'caretaker', we will be left with a political vacuum. We are therefore pushing political sentiment in this direction so that sovereignty is returned to the people.

"When a solution cannot be found in the Constitution, we have to resort to the 'democratic norm' [Article 7] and not involve the King by seeking a royally sponsored PM. We can manage by ourselves, as sovereignty belongs to us,'' Banjerd said.

He added that it was not an unprecedented event as many mature democratic countries including the United Kingdom, France and Germany had also adopted this type of transition in the past. Thailand has also resorted to a royally sponsored prime minister in October 14, 1973.

Commenting on the PDRC's proposal, Panas Tassaneeyanont, former senator and former dean of Thammasat University's faculty of law, said anything could happen while the PDRC and protesters did not seem to care about any legal principles.


-- The Nation 2013-12-06

[penwithcris]

That extra money would have made BKK a half-way decent airport but of course , sadly,the 40% would have disappeared whoever was in power..

1 kilometre apart for these functions doesn't seem enough but one would hope that today of all days, they will keep it peaceful

It doesn't matter what colour shirt people wear, all Thais know that today is a special day and will behave accordingly. (99.9% of Thais love the king.

What happens on Friday is anybody's guess.

Not sure your assumptions are accurate

[Prbkk]

A simple google search found at least one report of f Mr Suthep on foreigners. AP reported in 2011 ":Thailand on Thursday dismissed suggestions that foreign observers were needed to monitor its upcoming election, with the deputy prime minister saying he does "not respect" Westerners.

It would be "inappropriate" to allow outside involvement in the poll, which is due in June or July and comes after deadly street protests last year, said Suthep Thaugsuban.

"I don't respect 'farangs'. We do not have to surrender to them," he said, using the Thai word for "Westerners".

Anti-government "Red Shirts" have recently called for international observers to be present."

Edited December 6, 2013 by Prbkk

[khunsiam]

Newcomer71 wrote:

Hi Sam,

As to Suthep being anti-foreigner, that is absolutely new to me. That Taksin didn't like foreigners is known and obvious.

Suthep has many times make clear his idea. "I don't respect foreigner. Foreigner media are all sided with Thaksin." and other nice pearls like that... Representing the old elite, be sure they HATE foreign interference in everything. So don't expect roses for foreigner working here.

By the way, it's only my humble opinion

Cheers!

_______________________________________________________________

Phew, looks like this is going to be a looong night...

I didn't know the quotes you attribute to Suthep. But then that only covers foreign press reports, not the foreigners, that live in Thailand. Taksin said something similar, and to some extend I can understand that view of both. When you look at what the foreign press writes about Thailand, most of it is BS. But it influences the public oppinion abroad. That is why Taksin hired that US lawyer Amsterdam (sp?).

And another thing in this regard: Most stuff published abroad is not nice to Thais, is critcal about what's going on here. Thais and all other Asians don't like to be exposed in that way. At the same time they struggle to get their house in order. And they don't want foreign interference via press reports,- because that is how they see it.

Westerners are used to being criticized, they say, even bad press is better than no press at all. Asians see it different. That does NOT say, nobody may blame Thailand for errors or faults they commit. But most times that is not even reported correctly and not in a way, that may help to mend the things, that are wrong.

Example: There is a report out since a few days, that some Thais deliver Burmese refugees to Asian slave-traders. That needs to be reported and the Thais concerned should be pointed out. And dealt with.

OTOH just today I did read a piece on a (foreign) bulletin board, that the succession to the throne is still not decided. That is crap in writing. First of all this is factually wrong and secondly that is of no concern to people outside Thailand (and Thais abroad). Period. Any Thai reading (and understanding) that will be angry at "the press".

Now coming back to Suthep:

I think he doesn't know exactly, how the setup will be, from which to proceed, when the Shinawatras have left Thailand (as he and many others hope). But that is beside the point, because by the time THEN some alternatives will crop up and only THEN will all people concerned need to think about how to best proceed. Many things can happen in the meantime, so a carefully thought out strategy might not fit, when the time comes.

The general direction is to create an interim government and create/write a constitution, that fixes all or most of the faults of the previous versions: vote-buying, corruption, nepotism etc., etc. For a limited time there might be a non-elected government, as it has happened many times before in Thailand. And most Thais can accept it... for a limited time, like 6 months! But it must lead to a better situation afterwards!

And last not least: Europeans have been trying out several forms of democracy for the last 150 to 200 years, so do the Americans. Womens voting rights are also only about 100 years old, the Swiss have several cantons, where it was introduced only some recent years ago.

In the end I don't care, what kind of a person Suthep is, because I am not in any way related to him. But I care about the funtion he fulfills at the moment, and that is to galvanize the opposition to the Shin clan into a more powerful union. I appreciate that, but that does not make me love him.

Can we agree on that?

Sam M.

Anchalee Paireerak, a former PAD-activist and journalist on Sondhi's pay roll, is addressing protesters on different stages, Samsen, Democracy Monument, the Students and People Network at Urupong intersection, the Dhamma Army at Phan Fa Lilat bridge, she's a well known TV anchor and a key player in the 2006 and 2008 PAD protests, spending plenty of time on stage.

Early november she said: "I will not stop at the dropping of the bill. I will see this through to the end," adding that Thailand's current government is nothing more than a continuation of the Thaksin regime she started fighting a decade ago.

"If the Democrats back down after the amnesty bill is withdrawn, I will join another protest that shares my cause, most likely the STR", meaning that regardless of the political outcome, her fans were sure to see her again and often in the days to come.

the point is: at that time Anchalee was not sure Suthep would continue with the protest, but sure the SRT would continue...was Suthep not convinced yet of the "Occupy"-strategy move of the other groups?

Suthep announced that he would not stop until TH. regime would be wiped out of the map, began to repeat the old PAD rethoric about the People's Council, the same old PAD demands and, to the surprise of his (ex-) fellow Democrats, he took the lead of the occupations.

Concerning foreigners and foreign investment: although most of the PAD leaders supported, and in some cases helped draft the post-coup 2007 Constitution, the PAD proposed constitutional amendments that would make 70% of MPs appointed, based on professional groups, with elections choosing only 30%. Later on, the PAD changed its formula to 100% elections, but with 50% of Parliament voted for by GEOGRAPHIC area and the rest voted for by occupational representatives, (just to win the upper hand over the North and Northeast.)

Sondhi: "Representative democracy is not suitable for Thailand, the electoral system has repeatedly elected corrupt, populist governments."

Sondhi: "Don't impose a free trade, consumer-oriented society on Thailand,"

Will adopt the People's Council the same position as the former PAD that favored limits on foreign investment, and was generally skeptical of foreign investment?

[newcomer71]

Newcomer71 wrote:

Hi Sam,

As to Suthep being anti-foreigner, that is absolutely new to me. That Taksin didn't like foreigners is known and obvious.

Suthep has many times make clear his idea. "I don't respect foreigner. Foreigner media are all sided with Thaksin." and other nice pearls like that... Representing the old elite, be sure they HATE foreign interference in everything. So don't expect roses for foreigner working here.

By the way, it's only my humble opinion

Cheers!

_______________________________________________________________

Phew, looks like this is going to be a looong night...

I didn't know the quotes you attribute to Suthep.

.

You're not alone. Neither doesn't the largest, most powerful search engine in the world.

It sure would be nice that if people go to the trouble of actually using quotation marks to signify that the quote is verbatim, that they would include a link for such definitive claims.

Otherwise, one might suspect that such new comers to the forum were being disingenuous.

.

I don't want this thing becoming personal, and I won't fall in the trick of your last sentence (I am such a newcomer to writing in the forum (though I signed up 28 days after you only..., but I am well into reading it since long ago, just to say).

I am also sorry that your search on google did not went well, as you could have use a different word for foreigner (farang).

From AFP:

http://goo.gl/vUXosE

"I don't respect 'farangs'. We do not have to surrender to them," he said, using the Thai word for "Westerners".

Is that enough? I also remember him doing similar statements in another occasion during 2010 clashes, but sorry for that I don't have references about that other episode, as I heard him on a TV interview.

Said that, I leave you guys to your eminent opinions, and I will continue to fear the fascist, undemocratic, and dictatorial Suthep will take power in Thailand.

Having to live here with my family, and thinking about my kids future, allow me to be worried.

And no, I won't bother to argue more on this, as I already expressed clearly my position, and gave you references you asked me for.

Peace...

Edited December 6, 2013 by Maestro
Deleted duplicate link

[NCFC]

Whatever one's opinion of Thaksin, if his family is driven out of Thailand as Suthep wishes, you will see the whole of Issan and the north will explode in a riot that will make 2010 look like a tea party. The poor will see their only chance of hope gone(whether you agree with it or not is beside the point) and there will be an uprising of catastrophic proportions.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[SamMunich]

NCFC wrote:

Whatever one's opinion of Thaksin, if his family is driven out of Thailand as Suthep wishes, you will see the whole of Issan and the north will explode in a riot that will make 2010 look like a tea party. The poor will see their only chance of hope gone(whether you agree with it or not is beside the point) and there will be an uprising of catastrophic proportions.
____________________________________________________________

I beg to differ.

The tight-knit relations between Redshirts and PT are a thing of the past. Sure they still know and talk together, but the times, when PT or even Taksin was calling and all were coming are over.

There were disputes between several of the member organizations of the Redshirts and more importantly the farmers feel let down by the administration, as most if not all the promises didn't materialize. At the moment farmers are waiting up to 4 months for the money for the rice they pledged to the government. And that is beside the usual rip-off by millers and traders. If your existence is threatened in this way I don' t think a few hundred Baht for your vote will swing your mood.

It was also new to me, that people in Chayaphum, Korat (?) and Khon Kaen were demonstrating in support of the demonstrations in Bangkok. A few years earlier they would have been beaten up, if they tried anything like that.

So I think the iron grip of PT on the rural North and Northeast is a thing of the past. They still might win elections there, but with a lower margin. And I doubt, that all or most of the farmers will descend on Bangkok, if the Shina clan is gone.

Sam M.

[Dogmatix]

A simple google search found at least one report of f Mr Suthep on foreigners. AP reported in 2011 ":Thailand on Thursday dismissed suggestions that foreign observers were needed to monitor its upcoming election, with the deputy prime minister saying he does "not respect" Westerners.

It would be "inappropriate" to allow outside involvement in the poll, which is due in June or July and comes after deadly street protests last year, said Suthep Thaugsuban.

"I don't respect 'farangs'. We do not have to surrender to them," he said, using the Thai word for "Westerners".

Anti-government "Red Shirts" have recently called for international observers to be present."

Suthep is something of a zany character. However, I don't think you can read much into these remarks taken out of context. Thaksin also doesn't respect farangs or the UN when it suits him. At the beginning of his corrupt regime he attempted to orientate Thai business towards his ancestral homeland and other East Asian countries by whipping up anti-farang sentiment towards the IMF which had rescued the Thai economy from bankruptcy. I can't remember Thaksin ever inviting foreign observers to come and admire his vote buying at elections either.

If Suthep really doesn't respect any Westerners why on earth did he bother to go to the US to do a masters degree in political science?

[Dogmatix]

NCFC wrote:

Whatever one's opinion of Thaksin, if his family is driven out of Thailand as Suthep wishes, you will see the whole of Issan and the north will explode in a riot that will make 2010 look like a tea party. The poor will see their only chance of hope gone(whether you agree with it or not is beside the point) and there will be an uprising of catastrophic proportions.

____________________________________________________________

I beg to differ.

The tight-knit relations between Redshirts and PT are a thing of the past. Sure they still know and talk together, but the times, when PT or even Taksin was calling and all were coming are over.

There were disputes between several of the member organizations of the Redshirts and more importantly the farmers feel let down by the administration, as most if not all the promises didn't materialize. At the moment farmers are waiting up to 4 months for the money for the rice they pledged to the government. And that is beside the usual rip-off by millers and traders. If your existence is threatened in this way I don' t think a few hundred Baht for your vote will swing your mood.

It was also new to me, that people in Chayaphum, Korat (?) and Khon Kaen were demonstrating in support of the demonstrations in Bangkok. A few years earlier they would have been beaten up, if they tried anything like that.

So I think the iron grip of PT on the rural North and Northeast is a thing of the past. They still might win elections there, but with a lower margin. And I doubt, that all or most of the farmers will descend on Bangkok, if the Shina clan is gone.

Sam M.

Red shirt leaders will still follow the money and so, to a certain extent, will the rank and file but ideological base for the movement, such as it was, is now seriously tainted. If the Shins are eventually forced out of politics, the red shirt movement and PT will fragment. PT originated as a series of political parties and factions led by traditional provincial Chinese triad bosses that were bought up by Thaksin in M&A deals and can easily go back to what it was. Even Thaksin's elder sister has her own PT faction that slugs it out with other factions for benefits. The red shirts are broader than the red shirts and some red shirt groups have more red villages than the UDD. The also have a lunatic fringe of Maoists who fought with the CPT and academics who are very disillusioned with the govt's failure to reform LM laws, not to mention the Amnesty Bill.

They are all like Pavlov's dogs queuing up for a drop of the gravy. When the tube dries up they are gone.

[Prbkk]

I think it needs to be remembered that there was a lot of anti-foreign sentiment after 2006 ( and not only directed at Singapore), The uber nationalists felt slighted over the 'IMF.crisis'. Suthep is part of that old guard and, whatever people think of the Thaksins, in the event they ever got back, Thailand would become even more inward-looking. Some will remember the fuss caused by the article in the International Herald ( now NYT) following Thaksin's fall.

.http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/20/business/worldbusiness/20iht-thai.4972079.html?pagewanted=all

[khunsiam]

NCFC wrote:

Whatever one's opinion of Thaksin, if his family is driven out of Thailand as Suthep wishes, you will see the whole of Issan and the north will explode in a riot that will make 2010 look like a tea party. The poor will see their only chance of hope gone(whether you agree with it or not is beside the point) and there will be an uprising of catastrophic proportions.

____________________________________________________________

I beg to differ.

The tight-knit relations between Redshirts and PT are a thing of the past. Sure they still know and talk together, but the times, when PT or even Taksin was calling and all were coming are over.

There were disputes between several of the member organizations of the Redshirts and more importantly the farmers feel let down by the administration, as most if not all the promises didn't materialize. At the moment farmers are waiting up to 4 months for the money for the rice they pledged to the government. And that is beside the usual rip-off by millers and traders. If your existence is threatened in this way I don' t think a few hundred Baht for your vote will swing your mood.

It was also new to me, that people in Chayaphum, Korat (?) and Khon Kaen were demonstrating in support of the demonstrations in Bangkok. A few years earlier they would have been beaten up, if they tried anything like that.

So I think the iron grip of PT on the rural North and Northeast is a thing of the past. They still might win elections there, but with a lower margin. And I doubt, that all or most of the farmers will descend on Bangkok, if the Shina clan is gone.

Sam M.

Red shirt leaders will still follow the money and so, to a certain extent, will the rank and file but ideological base for the movement, such as it was, is now seriously tainted. If the Shins are eventually forced out of politics, the red shirt movement and PT will fragment. PT originated as a series of political parties and factions led by traditional provincial Chinese triad bosses that were bought up by Thaksin in M&A deals and can easily go back to what it was. Even Thaksin's elder sister has her own PT faction that slugs it out with other factions for benefits. The red shirts are broader than the red shirts and some red shirt groups have more red villages than the UDD. The also have a lunatic fringe of Maoists who fought with the CPT and academics who are very disillusioned with the govt's failure to reform LM laws, not to mention the Amnesty Bill.

They are all like Pavlov's dogs queuing up for a drop of the gravy. When the tube dries up they are gone.

but none of them would ever vote for Suthep or his allies,

[HuaHinHarold]

I think it needs to be remembered that there was a lot of anti-foreign sentiment after 2006 ( and not only directed at Singapore), The uber nationalists felt slighted over the 'IMF.crisis'. Suthep is part of that old guard and, whatever people think of the Thaksins, in the event they ever got back, Thailand would become even more inward-looking. Some will remember the fuss caused by the article in the International Herald ( now NYT) following Thaksin's fall.

.http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/20/business/worldbusiness/20iht-thai.4972079.html?pagewanted=all

Yes, we remember the anti-foreigner sentiment expressed in 2006, BEFORE the coup, by the Thaksin administration.

Thanks for providing the evidence of that in your link:

before the coup, the head of the country's immigration department announced that foreign tourists would be limited to staying in Thailand for 90 days within any six- month period

[Prbkk]

I don't recall mr Thaksin saying anything like " we don't need foreigners....I don't respect them", the exact words of Mr Suthep. I can understand why many foreigners don't like Thaksin ( or those associated with him in the current govt). What I find very hard to believe is that so many choose to support Suthep and his ilk, knowing that his policies will be a disaster for Thailand's economy and reputation. Mr Thaksin sought and received international investment, succeeded in lifting entire segments of the Thai community out of abject poverty ( those described by the 'elite' as buffalos) , had a plan for Thailand. No-one is denying he enriched himself in the process. Some on this forum express in vitriolic language their hatred of Thaksin and do so in a way that provides succour to the fanatics supporting "total extermination" ( some variation on a final solution.?).

Being against the worst of Thaksin is one thing, supporting the lunatic proposals of Suthep and his uber nationalists is not the answer

[Prbkk]

re-writing history and selective quoting doesn't add merit to your argument. Those comments were made in a particular context. I didn;t agree with that campaign ( although MANY did and still do). But with Thaksin it was specific, with Suthep it is entrenched in his philosophy of ultra-nationalism.He reminds me of Sukarno...clueless but with a simple message: "...it's THEIR fault". How long before he appoints himself Supreme Boy Scout?

[HuaHinHarold]

nevermind.

can lead a horse to water and all that

Edited December 7, 2013 by HuaHinHarold