US citizens......do you FBAR?

[thailiketoo]

Maybe you don't understand the meaning of "could"? It's very similar to "may" - they do have the legal ABILITY to do so, but it is left to their discretion.

So yes, they could, but generally - under the circumstances I outlined above - don't.

If there are any other flags that you've consciously evaded in the past, or have had any kind of sophisticated avoidance strategies that would imply you should have been aware of these requirements in the past, or there's anything shady about your business arrangements or lifestyle then all bets are off.

But what are you going to do, keep ignoring the requirement until they've got all the jurisdictions reporting on Americans? When computer systems are all joined up and decades from now your current transaction history is visible to them?

Haven't got any choice but damage control, do the filing now and cross your fingers, far better than waiting another year.

I totally with this assessment. And even if you don't have large amounts of money in Thailand start informing the IRS now and do the FBAR and Schedule B on your returns. Just start doing it. Probably wise to get a tax accountant who has experience with this to help out the first time. They are probably aware of some of loopholes and ways to approach the IRS under these circumstances. Actually, it is my hope and belief that unless you are talking about very large sums of money---hundreds of thousands or millions-there is a good chance you won't be bothered. Especially if you have been filing returns every year. The tax accountants that I have talked to, after explaining my situation, said the IRS will probably leave me alone or I might possible be penalized a percentage of the Thai interest/dividends I hadn't reported.

Probably, Probably, Hope, Probably.

So what is the alternative?

I think it depends on where you live and your lifestyle choices. I doubt Thai Visa is the place to discuss your question.

[phuketrichard]

alternative?

as i stated, make sure the total of ALL ur foreign accounts NEVER total ( not even for 1 minute) over $10,000 in a year

then u never have to fbar

guys, we all know what were talking about, ( for the most part) but some like to try an get each others goat ( like the grammer nazis)

[wym]

Can't believe TL2's till banging on.

Also to add - if you're putting in and taking out 9,900 on a regular basis without declaring the relevant activity then you've got a LOT more to worry about than joe citizen with $50,000 parked there from known sources who didn't FBAR.

Not worth trying to be tricky with this stuff, just declare and pay, even if it's from illegal sources they don't care as long as they get their pound of flesh.

[thailiketoo]

alternative?

as i stated, make sure the total of ALL ur foreign accounts NEVER total ( not even for 1 minute) over $10,000 in a year

then u never have to fbar

guys, we all know what were talking about, ( for the most part) but some like to try an get each others goat ( like the grammer nazis)

What about the guys with the retirement visa extensions? 800.000 baht in the bank?

[phuketrichard]

combo method

why would one put in $9,900 an take it out an back in>?

[wym]

duh, obviously should report

even the family 400K guys

[wym]

combo method

why would one put in $9,900 an take it out an back in>?

I meant as a result of the case of undeclared income-producing activities.

Clear evidence of conscious structuring

[thailiketoo]

Maybe you don't understand the meaning of "could"? It's very similar to "may" - they do have the legal ABILITY to do so, but it is left to their discretion.

So yes, they could, but generally - under the circumstances I outlined above - don't.

If there are any other flags that you've consciously evaded in the past, or have had any kind of sophisticated avoidance strategies that would imply you should have been aware of these requirements in the past, or there's anything shady about your business arrangements or lifestyle then all bets are off.

But what are you going to do, keep ignoring the requirement until they've got all the jurisdictions reporting on Americans? When computer systems are all joined up and decades from now your current transaction history is visible to them?

Haven't got any choice but damage control, do the filing now and cross your fingers, far better than waiting another year.

I totally with this assessment. And even if you don't have large amounts of money in Thailand start informing the IRS now and do the FBAR and Schedule B on your returns. Just start doing it. Probably wise to get a tax accountant who has experience with this to help out the first time. They are probably aware of some of loopholes and ways to approach the IRS under these circumstances. Actually, it is my hope and belief that unless you are talking about very large sums of money---hundreds of thousands or millions-there is a good chance you won't be bothered. Especially if you have been filing returns every year. The tax accountants that I have talked to, after explaining my situation, said the IRS will probably leave me alone or I might possible be penalized a percentage of the Thai interest/dividends I hadn't reported.

Question #8 -12 Streamlined Filing Compliance Procedures for Non-Resident, Non-Filer Taxpayers Questionnaire

TAX ADVISORS

8. Did you rely on the advice of a tax

professional for not filing required

U.S. tax returns?

a. If yes, is your tax

advisor located in the U.S.?

9. During the above-listed tax years fo

r this submission did you know that

you were a U.S. citizen or resident alien?

a. If yes, did you disclose to you

r tax professional that you were a U.S.

citizen or resident alien?

10. During the above-listed tax years for this submission, have you

declared all of your income in your country of residence?

11. If you used a tax professional, di

d you disclose the existence of the

accounts/entities you hold outside your

country of residence to your tax

professional?

12. Did you know you had a Report of Foreign Bank and Financial

Accounts (FBAR), Form TD F 90-22.1, filing requirement when you failed to file an FBA

I could be reading the above wrong but it seems to me it is better not to talk to a tax professional.

[maphraw]

Maybe you don't understand the meaning of "could"? It's very similar to "may" - they do have the legal ABILITY to do so, but it is left to their discretion.

So yes, they could, but generally - under the circumstances I outlined above - don't.

If there are any other flags that you've consciously evaded in the past, or have had any kind of sophisticated avoidance strategies that would imply you should have been aware of these requirements in the past, or there's anything shady about your business arrangements or lifestyle then all bets are off.

But what are you going to do, keep ignoring the requirement until they've got all the jurisdictions reporting on Americans? When computer systems are all joined up and decades from now your current transaction history is visible to them?

Haven't got any choice but damage control, do the filing now and cross your fingers, far better than waiting another year.

I totally with this assessment. And even if you don't have large amounts of money in Thailand start informing the IRS now and do the FBAR and Schedule B on your returns. Just start doing it. Probably wise to get a tax accountant who has experience with this to help out the first time. They are probably aware of some of loopholes and ways to approach the IRS under these circumstances. Actually, it is my hope and belief that unless you are talking about very large sums of money---hundreds of thousands or millions-there is a good chance you won't be bothered. Especially if you have been filing returns every year. The tax accountants that I have talked to, after explaining my situation, said the IRS will probably leave me alone or I might possible be penalized a percentage of the Thai interest/dividends I hadn't reported.

Question #8 -12 Streamlined Filing Compliance Procedures for Non-Resident, Non-Filer Taxpayers Questionnaire

TAX ADVISORS

8. Did you rely on the advice of a tax

professional for not filing required

U.S. tax returns?

a. If yes, is your tax

advisor located in the U.S.?

9. During the above-listed tax years fo

r this submission did you know that

you were a U.S. citizen or resident alien?

a. If yes, did you disclose to you

r tax professional that you were a U.S.

citizen or resident alien?

10. During the above-listed tax years for this submission, have you

declared all of your income in your country of residence?

11. If you used a tax professional, di

d you disclose the existence of the

accounts/entities you hold outside your

country of residence to your tax

professional?

12. Did you know you had a Report of Foreign Bank and Financial

Accounts (FBAR), Form TD F 90-22.1, filing requirement when you failed to file an FBA

I could be reading the above wrong but it seems to me it is better not to talk to a tax professional.

:

a. This is what an American tax accountant said his charges would be if he did my tax returns because I failed to report Thai interest/dividends/FBAR: $525 for each year's amended tax return which would go back 6 years. This amounts to $2,250. It includes PFIC computations. $125 for each year's FBAR totaling $750 (assuming 6 years). A reasonable cause letter drafted by his attorney $2,500. Total-$5,200.

I don't think his math is right but these were his exact figures. He said I was not eligible for 'Streamline' because I have filed tax returns in the past. I believe PFIC's are tax forms for foreign mutual funds.

$

$

[maphraw]

Maybe you don't understand the meaning of "could"? It's very similar to "may" - they do have the legal ABILITY to do so, but it is left to their discretion.

So yes, they could, but generally - under the circumstances I outlined above - don't.

If there are any other flags that you've consciously evaded in the past, or have had any kind of sophisticated avoidance strategies that would imply you should have been aware of these requirements in the past, or there's anything shady about your business arrangements or lifestyle then all bets are off.

But what are you going to do, keep ignoring the requirement until they've got all the jurisdictions reporting on Americans? When computer systems are all joined up and decades from now your current transaction history is visible to them?

Haven't got any choice but damage control, do the filing now and cross your fingers, far better than waiting another year.

I totally with this assessment. And even if you don't have large amounts of money in Thailand start informing the IRS now and do the FBAR and Schedule B on your returns. Just start doing it. Probably wise to get a tax accountant who has experience with this to help out the first time. They are probably aware of some of loopholes and ways to approach the IRS under these circumstances. Actually, it is my hope and belief that unless you are talking about very large sums of money---hundreds of thousands or millions-there is a good chance you won't be bothered. Especially if you have been filing returns every year. The tax accountants that I have talked to, after explaining my situation, said the IRS will probably leave me alone or I might possible be penalized a percentage of the Thai interest/dividends I hadn't reported.

Question #8 -12 Streamlined Filing Compliance Procedures for Non-Resident, Non-Filer Taxpayers Questionnaire

TAX ADVISORS

8. Did you rely on the advice of a tax

professional for not filing required

U.S. tax returns?

a. If yes, is your tax

advisor located in the U.S.?

9. During the above-listed tax years fo

r this submission did you know that

you were a U.S. citizen or resident alien?

a. If yes, did you disclose to you

r tax professional that you were a U.S.

citizen or resident alien?

10. During the above-listed tax years for this submission, have you

declared all of your income in your country of residence?

11. If you used a tax professional, di

d you disclose the existence of the

accounts/entities you hold outside your

country of residence to your tax

professional?

12. Did you know you had a Report of Foreign Bank and Financial

Accounts (FBAR), Form TD F 90-22.1, filing requirement when you failed to file an FBA

I could be reading the above wrong but it seems to me it is better not to talk to a tax professional.

:

a. This is what an American tax accountant said his charges would be if he did my tax returns because I failed to report Thai interest/dividends/FBAR: $525 for each year's amended tax return which would go back 6 years. This amounts to $2,250. It includes PFIC computations. $125 for each year's FBAR totaling $750 (assuming 6 years). A reasonable cause letter drafted by his attorney $2,500. Total-$5,200.

I don't think his math is right but these were his exact figures. He said I was not eligible for 'Streamline' because I have filed tax returns in the past. I believe PFIC's are tax forms for foreign mutual funds.

$

$

By the way, the American accountant is based in the USA.

[thailiketoo]

a. This is what an American tax accountant said his charges would be if he did my tax returns because I failed to report Thai interest/dividends/FBAR: $525 for each year's amended tax return which would go back 6 years. This amounts to $2,250. It includes PFIC computations. $125 for each year's FBAR totaling $750 (assuming 6 years). A reasonable cause letter drafted by his attorney $2,500. Total-$5,200.

I don't think his math is right but these were his exact figures. He said I was not eligible for 'Streamline' because I have filed tax returns in the past. I believe PFIC's are tax forms for foreign mutual funds.

$

$

If you have filed a tax return for 2009 or later you are not eligible.

Question #2 Streamlined Filing Compliance Procedures.

[mogandave]

I think it depends on where you live and your lifestyle choices. I doubt Thai Visa is the place to discuss your question.

I'm not really interested in something I can't discuss in public, unless it involves sex.

[thailiketoo]

I think it depends on where you live and your lifestyle choices. I doubt Thai Visa is the place to discuss your question.

I'm not really interested in something I can't discuss in public, unless it involves sex.

The law is so confusing and changes frequently and I know we can't discuss things on Thai Visa that are not legal so for me at least it is better not to discuss some things.

American accountants unlike lawyers are not protected by client privilege. I think they may be GB and Australia so most of the people commenting here would not be informed of that fact.

[mogandave]

I think anyone not evading taxes and not hiding or laundering money need not be worried.

I would just file the FBAR correctly, and make sure when I file 2013 taxes all my foreign income is declared. As others have indicated, Turbo-Tax is fine for this.

I have been filing the FBAR for ten years, and 2012 was the first time I declared interest income from my personal Thai accounts. No nasty-gram from the IRS.

[thailiketoo]

I think anyone not evading taxes and not hiding or laundering money need not be worried.

I would just file the FBAR correctly, and make sure when I file 2013 taxes all my foreign income is declared. As others have indicated, Turbo-Tax is fine for this.

I have been filing the FBAR for ten years, and 2012 was the first time I declared interest income from my personal Thai accounts. No nasty-gram from the IRS.

Why is America the only country in the world that needs this information from its citizens?

[55Jay]

Because we are exceptional.

[mogandave]

Because we are exceptional.

Well, that and because a fair percentage of the citizens have enough money to hide some.

Do other countries let you grow your money in offshore accounts and not pay taxes on it?

[mogandave]

I think anyone not evading taxes and not hiding or laundering money need not be worried.

I would just file the FBAR correctly, and make sure when I file 2013 taxes all my foreign income is declared. As others have indicated, Turbo-Tax is fine for this.

I have been filing the FBAR for ten years, and 2012 was the first time I declared interest income from my personal Thai accounts. No nasty-gram from the IRS.

Why is America the only country in the world that needs this information from its citizens?

I don't know that it is, do you?

[thailiketoo]

Because we are exceptional.

Well, that and because a fair percentage of the citizens have enough money to hide some.

Do other countries let you grow your money in offshore accounts and not pay taxes on it?

FBAR is not about paying taxes.

[mogandave]

Because we are exceptional.

Well, that and because a fair percentage of the citizens have enough money to hide some.

Do other countries let you grow your money in offshore accounts and not pay taxes on it?

FBAR is not about paying taxes.

Right, its about not paying taxes.

[wym]

Why is America the only country in the world that needs this information from its citizens?

I don't know that it is, do you?

I'm pretty sure the US is the only developed country that requires its citizens (and even residents that aren't yet citizens?) to pay tax on money earned outside its borders.

I know my UK friends are always going on about how much tax they save by working overseas.

And since the British government pretty much invented the whole concept of offshore banking, seems reasonable to assume that they don't tax passive investment income earned there either.

[wym]

And that's why so many wealthy Americans acquire other nationalities and then renounce their US citizenship.

It's enough of a problem - I think 2014 was triple the previous year, and that was an all-time high - that they are now making doing this - giving up your US passport for tax reasons - MUCH more difficult and expensive through new tax legislation.

I think the Facebook IPO guy going to Singapore has really made this a hot political issue.

Someone's got to pay for all the warmongering after all!

[mogandave]

Why is America the only country in the world that needs this information from its citizens?

I don't know that it is, do you?

I'm pretty sure the US is the only developed country that requires its citizens (and even residents that aren't yet citizens?) to pay tax on money earned outside its borders.

I know my UK friends are always going on about how much tax they save by working overseas.

And since the British government pretty much invented the whole concept of offshore banking, seems reasonable to assume that they don't tax passive investment income earned there either.

So you don't know either.

If you pay income taxes in Thailand, about the first $100k of your taxable income is exempt from income taxes.

Personally, I don't think the rich should be allowed to move funds offshore to avoid paying taxes poor people have to pay.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[wym]

Yes, the overseas exemption can be called generous for normal people.

But the relevant point here was that citizens of other countries can simply tell their government none of your business how much I make overseas.

And your opinion on the topic doesn't pertain much does it, fact is the wealthier you are the easier and more legal it is, I think that horse has been well let out of the barn decades ago, the American middle class is pretty well on its way to oblivion now. . .

[thailiketoo]

You guys keep talking about tax and moving money off shore and stuff like that!!!!! That is not what the thread is about. American wants to know everything about me. It's not tax.

They want to know where I put my money that is not taxable. FBAR is just America being a snoop.

Why? They are not going to get any of it. What business is it of theirs?

It is like your wife calling you up and telling you to bring milk home. She don't need any milk. She just wants to know if you are really at work.

Edited March 13, 2014 by thailiketoo

[55Jay]

You guys keep talking about tax and moving money off shore and stuff like that!!!!! That is not what the thread is about. American wants to know everything about me. It's not tax.

They want to know where I put my money that is not taxable. FBAR is just America being a snoop.

Why? They are not going to get any of it. What business is it of theirs?

It is like your wife calling you up and telling you to bring milk home. She don't need any milk. She just wants to know if you are really at work.

Then why did you ask the question? You wrote: Why is America the only country in the world that needs this information from its citizens?

You know the real answer, don't you? You keep dancing around it with peripheral infringement of freedom and privacy whinges.

Because they own you, that's why!

Your birth certificate is a government registration and title/ownership document.

You have a serial number.

You are required to have certain inoculations to keep you alive long enough to obtain a certain amount of mandatory training to function, at minimum, as a worker bee in the hierarchical hive system we all work to support and expand.

You are Property of the United States, merely in care of those who spawned you biologically.

If your biological spawners don't care for you properly, the owner will punish them and take care of you until you are old enough to be put to work.

You are a slave and slaves are listed, inventoried and kept track of.

If you say you want to leave the hive temporarily, you have to ask the queen bee so your subsequent movements can be *tracked.

*More and more hives are colluding with each other via Unions and Cooperating Councils, reporting your activities in their hive, back to your home hive.

Increasingly, there's no place to hide. The last few nooks and crannies are being walled off. It's a maze, the only way is forward. Follow the others.

The only real way out is to disavow membership in the hive and the queen bee's true jealous and controlling nature will be revealed as you attempt to leave.

Unfortunately you must join another hive first. No bee can be without a hive. You must be registered. Listed. Inventoried. Tracked.

It's a terrible reality once you finally wake up to it.

Tread carefully and be mindful of rusty hand rails on high rise condos and apartment balconies in Pattaya.

Case.....

[55Jay]

Seriously though, this is about taxes, or, rather, as morgandave said, about not paying taxes.

IRS certainly cooperates with other government agencies. They don't have to reach very far for FBAR as FinCEN, the FBAR repository, is part of the same Department.

Page 27 of attached IRS annual report, highlights a small fish that got hooked for structuring. Chump change but, they have to make an example out of even small fish now and again so us other small fish are reminded we aren't invisible.

Int the main though, their focus is on the high dollar / high profile targets. They are a government organization and must justify their existence with number of cases and high dollar captures and good media in the war on drugs and terrorism. This ensures their continued survival, budget, and support further expansion of activities and power - just like any organization wants.

[thailiketoo]

Seriously though, this is about taxes, or, rather, as morgandave said, about not paying taxes.

IRS certainly cooperates with other government agencies. They don't have to reach very far for FBAR as FinCEN, the FBAR repository, is part of the same Department.

Page 27 of attached IRS annual report, highlights a small fish that got hooked for structuring. Chump change but, they have to make an example out of even small fish now and again so us other small fish are reminded we aren't invisible.

Int the main though, their focus is on the high dollar / high profile targets. They are a government organization and must justify their existence with number of cases and high dollar captures and good media in the war on drugs and terrorism. This ensures their continued survival, budget, and support further expansion of activities and power - just like any organization wants.

FBAR is not about taxes. It has nothing to do with taxes. If you want to start a thread about taxes go ahead but here it is off topic. FBAR is about telling the USA government how much money you have and where you have it and how you got it. If you don't tell them they will fine you or put you in jail but they will not tax you.

[55Jay]

Seriously though, this is about taxes, or, rather, as morgandave said, about not paying taxes.

IRS certainly cooperates with other government agencies. They don't have to reach very far for FBAR as FinCEN, the FBAR repository, is part of the same Department.

Page 27 of attached IRS annual report, highlights a small fish that got hooked for structuring. Chump change but, they have to make an example out of even small fish now and again so us other small fish are reminded we aren't invisible.

Int the main though, their focus is on the high dollar / high profile targets. They are a government organization and must justify their existence with number of cases and high dollar captures and good media in the war on drugs and terrorism. This ensures their continued survival, budget, and support further expansion of activities and power - just like any organization wants.

FBAR is not about taxes. It has nothing to do with taxes. If you want to start a thread about taxes go ahead but here it is off topic. FBAR is about telling the USA government how much money you have and where you have it and how you got it. If you don't tell them they will fine you or put you in jail but they will not tax you.

You actually believe that? You sound like a broken record, regurgitating stuff you were told or read but have no direct experience with.

Have you ever actually filed one before? Your response above seems to indicate you have not:

You wrote: "FBAR is about telling the USA government how much money you have and where you have it and how you got it."

That is factually incorrect and defeats your own false argument if it were true.

Are you even an American? I've run across Europeans who are obsessed with US issues like this, gun control, health care, etc.

[thailiketoo]

Seriously though, this is about taxes, or, rather, as morgandave said, about not paying taxes.

IRS certainly cooperates with other government agencies. They don't have to reach very far for FBAR as FinCEN, the FBAR repository, is part of the same Department.

Page 27 of attached IRS annual report, highlights a small fish that got hooked for structuring. Chump change but, they have to make an example out of even small fish now and again so us other small fish are reminded we aren't invisible.

Int the main though, their focus is on the high dollar / high profile targets. They are a government organization and must justify their existence with number of cases and high dollar captures and good media in the war on drugs and terrorism. This ensures their continued survival, budget, and support further expansion of activities and power - just like any organization wants.

FBAR is not about taxes. It has nothing to do with taxes. If you want to start a thread about taxes go ahead but here it is off topic. FBAR is about telling the USA government how much money you have and where you have it and how you got it. If you don't tell them they will fine you or put you in jail but they will not tax you.

You actually believe that? You sound like a broken record, regurgitating stuff you were told or read but have no direct experience with.

Have you ever actually filed one before? Your response above seems to indicate you have not:

You wrote: "FBAR is about telling the USA government how much money you have and where you have it and how you got it."

That is factually incorrect and defeats your own false argument if it were true.

Are you even an American? I've run across Europeans who are obsessed with US issues like this, gun control, health care, etc.

FBAR is not about taxes. Sorry if this contradicts what you believe but it is the truth. You don't file it at the same time and it does not go to the same place. It has harsher penalties than not paying taxes but it is simply a paperwork function. It is busy work for the treasury department. You have to complete the paperwork or get fined and perhaps go to jail but it has nothing to do with taxes or your tax burden or your tax responsibilities.

If you want to call me a liar again bring some proof. I guess what I am saying is put up or shut up.

My position is FBAR is not about taxes. You can file a little FBAR or a large FBAR it makes no different. It is not filed with the IRS and it is not about Taxes.

Edited March 13, 2014 by thailiketoo