Referendum proposed on setting up Thai people's council

[webfact]

POLITICS
Referendum proposed on setting up people's council
The Nation

BANGKOK: -- UKRIT MONGKOLNAVIN, chairman of the Independent National Rule of Law Commission, yesterday proposed that Article 165 of the Constitution be invoked to hold a public referendum on the proposal to establish a people's council.

Ukrit raised the proposal during a discussion with House Speaker Somsak Kiartsuranon and Senate Speaker Nikom Wairatpanij at Parliament.

Ukrit said the referendum would end disputes between the People's Democratic Reform Committee and the government over the issue.

"Under the democratic system, the voice of the people is the most important. If we want a real solution, we should invoke Article 165 for all people to have a say. All 60 million Thais should be asked instead of having just 200,000 decide what should be done," Ukrit said.

Political science students from 14 universities yesterday called on the government and protest leader Suthep Thaugsuban to hold transparent talks to achieve a constitutional solution for the country.

The two-point proposal was submitted in the morning by 20 student representatives to Deputy Prime Minister Phongthep Thepkanjana at Government House, who promised it would be considered by the government along with other proposals. The universities include Thammasat, Chulalongkorn, Kasetsart, Chiang Mai and Khon Kaen.

The student representatives told Phongthep political science students from the 14 universities came up with the proposal during a recent seminar. They called on the government and the Suthep-led People's Democratic Reform Committee to urgently and transparently negotiate a solution that is possible under the charter.

Their second proposal was that political reform should be carried out via charter amendments that provide a level playing field for all groups to express their opinions.

Phongthep replied that the government was gathering opinions on a solution and that the students' proposal would be considered along with other proposals put forward by academics.

He said he would later invite people with interesting ideas to discuss them. Permanent Secretary for Justice Kittipong Kityarak had been assigned to gather all the opinions and proposals, he added.

The deputy prime minister said the government would give its full attention to the opinions put forward as soon as possible.

But he said Suthep's proposal to seek a royally-granted prime minister, by invoking Article 7 of the charter, was impossible. It had been achieved in 1973, he said, because the charter at that time allowed it.

Education Minister Chaturon Chaisang said yesterday it was unconstitutional to invoke Article 3 and 7 to set up a people's council and seek to have a prime minister appointed by His Majesty. He said Article 291 needed to be amended first to make Suthep's proposals possible.

"But someone must sponsor this charter amendment bill. The protesters are refusing to propose a charter amendment bill and instead are resorting to intimidating and creating turmoil," Chaturon said.


-- The Nation 2013-12-07

[scorecard]

And no doubt chatruron et al, will throw anything into the discussion to:

- Divert the discussion away from specific dialogue / protest about the shin clan, corruption, nepotism, etc.

- Buy time hoping it will all go away.

Referendum? I can just imagine the red democracy schools at work with whatever spin is needed to convince their unaware supporters

that it's all aimed at destroying their beloved version of 'democracy'.

[boomerangutang]

Thaksin will direct his followers to just tough it out. The Shinawatre gov't doesn't care if they're perceived as doing the right things - on any level. They only want to hang on to power by any means, because being in power translates to more access to money for them and their cohorts.

[waza]

The Thaksin government has bled the treasury dry and used up all the equity in the government banks, the only resort left is to or divert the budget in the short term and get the major loans in the back pocket for the long term. But its a catch 22 situation, the longer they hold onto power the more unpopular they get but they haven't enough cash to buy another election. They would be hoping for a military coup to break the impasse and gain public sympathy, so expect an escalation of violence from the third hand, redshirts and RTP.

Edited December 7, 2013 by waza

[Rykbanlor]

He said he would later invite pe​ople with interesting ideas to discuss them

Finally, a way to publicise my Latest patent: The toilet tongue.

[pkspeaker]

No point in having a referendum because everyone knows it would be voted down, same reason there is no reason to dissolve the house and have new elections because Yingluck will win. The protesters will not accept the referendum because they are against elections.

[marcusd]

The reds still want power for a few more years. They can still increase borrowings by more billions and that buys nice houses overseas.

Oh for he good of the Thai nation?

Let the next government have that problem

Sent from my RM-892_apac_laos_thailand_219 using Tapatalk

[shaurene]

Not sure if it would be the same inThailand but many western country's have a referendum but the governments do not have to accept the result, in the UK had a few and the results were against what the government wanted and they denied the peoples choice. I think one was to bring back the death penalty and the referendum resulted in a yes but the government denied it. So referendums are just a waste of tax payers money.

[binjalin]

why have one? that's what elections are for and the people 'spoke' last time and will have their chance again next time (same result as the last 5 elections I'm pretty certain i.e. Dems lose)

[tragickingdom]

I propose that the man proposing this is impeached and thrown in jail just like Suthep and Abhisit are trying to do with the 300 lawmakers who voted to change the constitution. A people's council appointed by Suthep's man is like the people council of North Korea.

[cacruden]

It actually sort of sounds eerily like Marxist doctrine.... we will appoint the rulers for 1000 years until the traces of capitalist influence have been eradicated. Problem is absolute power corrupts absolutely - and even faster for those that have previously shown themselves to be corruptible/corrupt. We will just appoint the rulers until....

[Time Traveller]

I thought Thais had already voted. They don't want a "people's council" , they want their current Prime Minister. Supposing the demorats win the next election, will they still want their government replaced by a "people's council"??? I think there is your answer

[Roadman]

The sponsor should be the Army telling them how its going to be. Then take them all back to pre-school to start their leaning with Morals and Ethic's 1, playing in the sandpit together, crayons and picture papers supplied...

[boomerangutang]

The sponsor should be the Army telling them how its going to be. Then take them all back to pre-school to start their leaning with Morals and Ethic's 1, playing in the sandpit together, crayons and picture papers supplied...

Thai politicians playing the power games can't be taught how to be decent. They're like bricks which are fired with their maker's name on them. Their acceptance of corrupt practices is indelible.

That's half the reason why I dislike T so much. He was a shining example to at least 2 generations of young Thais - showing them clearly, that dishonesty and corruption pay big dividends.

[Prbkk]

Wow, political science students from 14 universities call for dialogue. Powerful stuff. Will the NYT run a story ," old lady from Arkansas calls on Obama to legalize marijuana"?

[rubl]

So the chairman of the government's Dependent National Rule of Law Commission proposed to have a referendum on the "people's council" which the government already ruled out as 'unconstitutional'?

Doesn't that mean he's urging the government to act unconstitutionally? Strange

[fab4]

So the chairman of the government's Dependent National Rule of Law Commission proposed to have a referendum on the "people's council" which the government already ruled out as 'unconstitutional'?

Doesn't that mean he's urging the government to act unconstitutionally? Strange

Stop being so transparent rubl. The title is "chairman of the Independent National Rule of Law Commission". Which rules the rest of your statement as pointless, not for the first time.

By the way, are you getting any further to explaining what a "Peoples Council" is let alone how it fits into the constitution, seeing as you are one of its fondest patrons, it appears?

[fab4]

The sponsor should be the Army telling them how its going to be. Then take them all back to pre-school to start their leaning with Morals and Ethic's 1, playing in the sandpit together, crayons and picture papers supplied...

Thai politicians playing the power games can't be taught how to be decent. They're like bricks which are fired with their maker's name on them. Their acceptance of corrupt practices is indelible.

That's half the reason why I dislike T so much. He was a shining example to at least 2 generations of young Thais - showing them clearly, that dishonesty and corruption pay big dividends.

Yes indeed, it makes you wonder who taught them before he entered Politics doesn't it?

If it doesn't, well, that says a lot about you,I'm afraid.

[khunken]

The sponsor should be the Army telling them how its going to be. Then take them all back to pre-school to start their leaning with Morals and Ethic's 1, playing in the sandpit together, crayons and picture papers supplied...

Thai politicians playing the power games can't be taught how to be decent. They're like bricks which are fired with their maker's name on them. Their acceptance of corrupt practices is indelible.

That's half the reason why I dislike T so much. He was a shining example to at least 2 generations of young Thais - showing them clearly, that dishonesty and corruption pay big dividends.

Yes indeed, it makes you wonder who taught them before he entered Politics doesn't it?

If it doesn't, well, that says a lot about you,I'm afraid.

Who taught them? Thai culture of lawlessness from politicians, bureaucrats, police and their parents to lack of ethics (among other failures) in the educational system. Thaksin just took it to extremes by even passing self-serving laws.

I happen to agree with the referendum proposal as it seems that suspending the constitution is the only way to have real independence with an appointed council (or whatever one calls it) in finding a way out of the crisis.

As for Pongthep listening to input from students or anyone else - his boss has burnt his (Thaksin's) bridges on that one. The faux reconciliation forum was just a showpiece with none of the recommendations acted upon.

Suthep's efforts will probably end on Monday but the stage has been set. Try and pass any more self-serving laws and it's back to the streets. PTP can carry on with one eye looking over their shoulder but I suppose their 'commissions' are more important.

[smedly]

I this ends up with a peoples council as suggested the Constitution would be suspended while the council plug all the gaps that PTP has exploited for the last two years, what I see coming out of it are -

stronger laws and penalties against corruption -

Very Important - new rules on parliament voting structure for Constitutional amendments (i.e. requiring 2/3 majority) -

scraping the serving MP immunity to prosecution -

life ban for all MP's found guilty of crime instead of 5 years -

Stronger powers given to institutions that protect democracy -

Penalties for MP's found telling lies to the public regarding state finance -

Accountability to the public regarding government finance and expenditure -

All loans projects must go through strict government budgetary procedure with constant scrutiny by powerful independent bodies -

I'm sure there are many more but the above would be a good start

PS - total reform of the Police service

Edited December 7, 2013 by smedly

[JRSoul]

Why is Ukrit wasting his time talking to those clowns? If you want a favourite tune, do you ask the organ grinder or his monkey?

And I can see the response now - he holds up a little paddle with an X.

[aussieinthailand]

So who appoints the "peoples council"? how many are they? what are there political alliance's? how long will they hold power? and who is watching these people? and will the watchers have the power to remove those that abuse their position?

the problem is that there are a lesser number of people in Thailand that want their way regardless of what (The umpires,) ( the voting public) have told the government what they want,,, the few people of the country that separate people here by class, and origin of your birth, family, the job you have, and the size of your bank account,

the few people want and cry when they cant win over the people, and cant take government by the vote...

so now will those wishes of the few outweigh those of the many?

Do you really want to throw out a democratic voting system for this trip???

[Baerboxer]

No point in having a referendum because everyone knows it would be voted down, same reason there is no reason to dissolve the house and have new elections because Yingluck will win. The protesters will not accept the referendum because they are against elections.

PTP have avoided referendums like the plague. They also lost 2 recent elections when they thought they could win easily.

Why do you really think they don't want to ask the people? Maybe they know they won't win without a massive vote buying campaign and even then, based on recent performance, might still not win.

The economy is in shit street, cash flow looks a major issue and they still can't find away to get the crook back all cleared.

Remember the little gem of making local amphurs display notices supporting the amnesty bill, and making people sign a petition supporting it? Got knocked on the head after if went public. Wonder how much tax payers money PTP use to support PTP.

[newcomer71]

A referendum to decide who will make people council (said a parliament usually)?

So it has been done already

[philw]

Total votes something like 15.7 million PTP and Yingluck and 11.4 million Democrats and AV

Says a lot that.................

[tomacht8]

I this ends up with a peoples council as suggested the Constitution would be suspended while the council plug all the gaps that PTP has exploited for the last two years, what I see coming out of it are -

stronger laws and penalties against corruption -

Very Important - new rules on parliament voting structure for Constitutional amendments (i.e. requiring 2/3 majority) -

scraping the serving MP immunity to prosecution -

life ban for all MP's found guilty of crime instead of 5 years -

Stronger powers given to institutions that protect democracy -

Penalties for MP's found telling lies to the public regarding state finance -

Accountability to the public regarding government finance and expenditure -

All loans projects must go through strict government budgetary procedure with constant scrutiny by powerful independent bodies -

I'm sure there are many more but the above would be a good start

PS - total reform of the Police service

Great points.

Here may some more:

Obligations presence in Parliament.

Public monthly reports on Finance and project progresses.

Public invitation for project proposals and at least three competitive compare offers.

Project completion reports including all expenses with receipts.

Percentage distribution of the household budget (or Appropriate parts) on the states (tschang wats) taking into account the number of inhabitants.

So could preventet that a slight majority grabs the whole cake completely while the other gotten nothing.

This would significantly contribute to the unification of the country.

Coz we have in this country the situation:

south: 95% yellow

Bangkok 50% yellow and 50 % reds

and North/east :95% reds

Doesn´t matter who is in power, so the minority would not go out empty handed.

That is a core of a functioning democracy, namely, the task of the majority to protect the minorities.

It must be prevented that a country can be completely plundered by a few unethical people just because they are currently in power.

Edited December 7, 2013 by tomacht8

[cacruden]

Amending formula for Constitutions are worthless.... those that have the power will tear it up when it suits them.

[smedly]

I this ends up with a peoples council as suggested the Constitution would be suspended while the council plug all the gaps that PTP has exploited for the last two years, what I see coming out of it are -

stronger laws and penalties against corruption -

Very Important - new rules on parliament voting structure for Constitutional amendments (i.e. requiring 2/3 majority) -

scraping the serving MP immunity to prosecution -

life ban for all MP's found guilty of crime instead of 5 years -

Stronger powers given to institutions that protect democracy -

Penalties for MP's found telling lies to the public regarding state finance -

Accountability to the public regarding government finance and expenditure -

All loans projects must go through strict government budgetary procedure with constant scrutiny by powerful independent bodies -

I'm sure there are many more but the above would be a good start

PS - total reform of the Police service

Great points.

Here may some more:

Obligations presence in Parliament.

Public monthly reports on Finance and project progresses.

Public invitation for project proposals and at least three competitive compare offers.

Project completion reports including all expenses with receipts.

Percentage distribution of the household budget (or Appropriate parts) on the states (tschang wats) taking into account the number of inhabitants.

So could preventet that a slight majority grabs the whole cake completely while the other gotten nothing.

This would significantly contribute to the unification of the country.

Coz we have in this country the situation:

south: 95% yellow

Bangkok 50% yellow and 50 % reds

and North/east :95% reds

Doesn´t matter who is in power, so the minority would not go out empty handed.

That is a core of a functioning democracy, namely, the task of the majority to protect the minorities.

It must be prevented that a country can be completely plundered by a few unethical people just because they are currently in power.

absolutely agree with most of what you said except for one thing - trivial as it may seem you mentioned yellows - I see no evidence of that, what I see is PTP the reds and now the rest of Thailand - the yellows are gone, there is no faction called yellow

[smedly]

Amending formula for Constitutions are worthless.... those that have the power will tear it up when it suits them.

not true, if it is done correctly it will be solid and abuse free, the key is what I've been saying for months - no party can change the constitution without a 2/3 majority in the house, what that does is protect the constitution from abuse , it takes all the crap that PTP have been trying to do the last two years completely off the table because they would have to include the opposition to approve such changes or put it to the people with a referendum - how efing simple is that - none of this crap would be going on right now if it had been the case, I honestly can't understand what else there is to talk about - this single change would put Thailand on a political path that they have so far failed to ever find - Thaksin would either have to face his day in court or stay on the run - no other options would be available unless he was going to buy the whole opposition party, it has to happen

one thing is for sure and someone please tell me I'm wrong - up to now democracy doesn't work here so something has got to change - history doesn't lie

[Roadman]

Amending formula for Constitutions are worthless.... those that have the power will tear it up when it suits them.

not true, if it is done correctly it will be solid and abuse free, the key is what I've been saying for months - no party can change the constitution without a 2/3 majority in the house, what that does is protect the constitution from abuse , it takes all the crap that PTP have been trying to do the last two years completely off the table because they would have to include the opposition to approve such changes or put it to the people with a referendum - how efing simple is that - none of this crap would be going on right now if it had been the case, I honestly can't understand what else there is to talk about - this single change would put Thailand on a political path that they have so far failed to ever find - Thaksin would either have to face his day in court or stay on the run - no other options would be available unless he was going to buy the whole opposition party, it has to happen

one thing is for sure and someone please tell me I'm wrong - up to now democracy doesn't work here so something has got to change - history doesn't lie

The first thought is that nothing else works here like a western democracy because it is not a western democracy, never has been and never will be while dictators are trying to take it down their path. So agree that the place can stay like it is and keep on sliding further into the cess pot of corruption and economic ruin that it is headed or apply a hard democratic control like a two thirds majority to a constitution that has been set by a peoples constitution from referendum. Problem is none of the corrupt political trough feeders that pass themselves of as governments in Thailand are going to allow that to happen on their watch. Hence it will ever only fall to the Army to enforce it so it ain't going to happen until the lot of them go at it in full force again. Next time the Army steps in they should apply a wider, swifter and more targeted control.

Edited December 7, 2013 by Roadman