While exploring the wall remains, I discovered that it has new bricks on it ( they are dated ).

So, when was it rebuilt, and was it rebuilt to look like the present ruin?

I read somewhere that the walls were rebuilt around 150 years ago.

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There was rebuilding in the 1990s, maybe some in the late 80s.

I'm not sure about the walls but some of the gates were rebuilt in the 1980's as I recall.

I think you will find Thapae gate quite contemporary.

Rebuilt in late 80s and again in 90s around a steel frame.....or was it concrete?

Someone on the forum had some nice photos of the work being carried out.

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I'm not sure about the walls but some of the gates were rebuilt in the 1980's as I recall.

The gates actually look recent, but I thought the walls were original till I saw the dated bricks. I'll try and put the photos on the thread when I get back home.

Thanks for replies.

re

So, when was it rebuilt,

part of chiang mai gate !

between 16 august 12 and 28 september 12

dave2

_{The Chiang Mai City moat is called the "khu mueang" (คูเมือง) in Thai. Northern Thai speakers call it "khue mueang" (คือเมือง).}

The wall wasn't rebuilt as such it was added to with the new bricks being used to heighten / extend the original sections. As far as I remember it was some sort of Japanese grant to pay for it. As far as I remember this was after Tapae Gate was rebuilt.

Tapae gate was , I think, a complete rebuild - and the governor that signed for that promptly died in the Air Lauda crash .

According to the locals - 2 acts of karma, although operating in somewhat different directions.

The wall wasn't rebuilt as such it was added to with the new bricks being used to heighten / extend the original sections. As far as I remember it was some sort of Japanese grant to pay for it. As far as I remember this was after Tapae Gate was rebuilt.

Tapae gate was , I think, a complete rebuild - and the governor that signed for that promptly died in the Air Lauda crash .

According to the locals - 2 acts of karma, although operating in somewhat different directions.

If my faltering memory is right the Japanese took down much of the old wall during WW11 and used the bricks for road building. It would be appropriate then that they have helped pay to rebuild it.

The wall wasn't rebuilt as such it was added to with the new bricks being used to heighten / extend the original sections. As far as I remember it was some sort of Japanese grant to pay for it. As far as I remember this was after Tapae Gate was rebuilt.

Tapae gate was , I think, a complete rebuild - and the governor that signed for that promptly died in the Air Lauda crash .

According to the locals - 2 acts of karma, although operating in somewhat different directions.

If my faltering memory is right the Japanese took down much of the old wall during WW11 and used the bricks for road building. It would be appropriate then that they have helped pay to rebuild it.

I think you are right - I have been told they used them to build a road out to Pai. So sort of paying back karma by rebuilding.

Historical sources tell us that Chao Kawila rebuilt the Kampang Muang, the corner forts, and the five gates, when he refounded Chiang Mai at the turn of the 18th century.

Professor Hans Penth [A Brief History of Lanna. Silkworm Books 1994] summarizes it as follows: "For military reasons, but also because the city had suffered much physical damage and a serious loss of population along with a loss of food supply, the royal court, between 1775 and 1797, lived in a camp near Pa Sang, south of Lamphun. During that time, Chiang Mai was nearly deserted. After King Kawila had ceremoniously re-entered the city on Thursday, 9 March 1797, Chiang Mai received new fortifications; what is left of them at present dates from that period around 1800."

Early 20th century photographs show the Kampang Muang in disrepair, but largely intact. By mid-century it had been all but leveled, and the corner forts devastated. The massive gates along with their fortified inner courtyards obliterated and replaced with stage-set structures nothing at all like the originals.

The later rebuilding of Tha Phae Gate was based on early photos, and seems to be right in terms of scale, but is without the inner courtyard that was an integral part of the original structure.

The fortifications of Chiang Mai - or what was left of them - now exist only as memories in the minds of a few very old Kohn Muang.

^^ Thanks for that informative reply. Very interesting.

^^ Thanks for that informative reply. Very interesting.

Anytime, amigos.

Local history has been an abiding interest of mine for a long time... nice to know others who share it.

I also remember reading somewhere that when the corner fortifications were built, there were human "sacrifices" so that the spirits would guard the area. Anyone else read this? Sorry don't remember the reference, it was a number of years ago. Although a number of Thai people seem to agree with it.

I also remember reading somewhere that when the corner fortifications were built, there were human "sacrifices" so that the spirits would guard the area. Anyone else read this? Sorry don't remember the reference, it was a number of years ago. Although a number of Thai people seem to agree with it.

It looks like they are trying to reenact the sacrifice right now with Yingluck.

^^ Thanks for that informative reply. Very interesting.

Anytime, amigos.

Local history has been an abiding interest of mine for a long time... nice to know others who share it.

Do you know anything about Chiang Saen. The walls look more original there. The gate fortifications are very impressive.

It looks like the walls were made completely of bricks instead of two outer walls with a center of rammed earth.

Cheers

R'tje

If you go to Wat Prah Singh walk to the back where there is the small temple building (That has beautiful wall murals)... Just before you enter on the right is a model temple building - go inside, there are mounted galley where they show pictures is the gates and walls from before the renovations...

^^ Thanks for that informative reply. Very interesting.

Anytime, amigos.

Local history has been an abiding interest of mine for a long time... nice to know others who share it.

Do you know anything about Chiang Saen. The walls look more original there. The gate fortifications are very impressive.

It looks like the walls were made completely of bricks instead of two outer walls with a center of rammed earth.

Cheers

R'tje

Chiang Saen was the last stronghold of the Burmese in Lanna Thai until they were decisively defeated and driven out in 1804. After that it was deserted for many years until the late 19th century when efforts were made by the Siamese government to repopulate it as a strategic counter to the French who were spreading their influence to the upper Mehkong.

The city of Chiang Saen and its extensive fortifications were visited and written about in the early 20th century by W.A.R. Wood and Reginald le May, both British consular officials posted to Chiang Mai.

Chapter XII of le May's 1926 book, An Asian Arcady [reprint White Lotus 1986] records in detail a three-day visit to Chiang Saen he made in 1913 as part of a tour of the consular district. He begins with some background information: "Chiang Saen is a mysterious old city, surrounded by a high, thick, strong wall with palisades on top of the brick, and deep trenches dug outside. How far the wall extends, and what area it embraces is difficult to say. The whole city is now so overgrown with plantations of teak, and thick secondary growth, that one cannot see more than twenty yards ahead, except on the main grassy track; but it must be of wide extent, for the District Officer told me that there are now tiger and other game living within the walls, and that he had recently fired several shots at a rinoceros.

This city has a special place all to itself in the history of Siam, for it was originally a Lawa stronghold, and must have been one of the first, if not the very first, city in Siam to fall into Tai hands during their migrations southward. Quite conceivably it may have been the settling-place of the Tai Prince Brahma when he crossed the Mehkong in the second half of the 9th century, However this may be, the first actual mention of Chiang Saen occurs about the middle of the 11th century, when it is recorded that the Lawa had set up an independent kingdom there under a king called Chakkaraja, who had many successors until the 13th century, when the Tai became too strong for the Lawa, and drove them into the hills. At that time the State of Chiang Saen was known as Ngon Yang, and remained still independent, though under Tai rule. The famous Phya Mengrai, who founded Chiang Mai, originally succeeded his father as Prince of Chiang Saen about 1260 AD, but left it to found his capital at Chiang Rai, which he named after himself. Chiang Mai itself was founded much later, in 1296. When his grandson, Sen Phu came to the throne in 1327, he left Chiang Mai and reoccupied Chiang Saen, which he made his capital once more; and his son, Kham <deleted>, followed his example. But Pha Yu, the son of Kham <deleted>, who succeeded to the throne in 1345, only stayed in Chiang Saen until 1350, when he removed definitely to Chiang Mai, and Chiang Saen was never the capital city again."

W.A.R. Wood, former British Consul-General at Chiang Mai also visited Chiang Saen on several occasions and wrote about it.

Both Wood and le May are well worth reading. They had a profound knowledge and love for Lanna Thai and its people.