PM Yingluck seeks House dissolution

[Prbkk]

I agree with EmptySet re vote buying if, as most posters on TVF suggest, you mean handing a bit of cash to the electorate 1 by 1.

However, the local political machines do fairly well control local politics in a manner that very much is vote buying. They get paid to deliver votes and made promises of local improvements based upon the party making the promises winning the district. They have a great deal of power locally and do use it. The village chief gets handed a wad of cash, and told you will get a new water tower, or your roads will be repaved etc if you deliver your people. Note that the contracts for the improvements go to the political allies of the government in most cases.

This makes it almost impossible for foreign observers to see the irregularities. They would 1) Have to be reported locally and 2) have someone with the political will to follow up on the reports 3) have penalties in place that actually discourage this.

What is amazing is that some people still get red carded for handing out cash.

But you have already said you want to get rid of majoritarianism ( that weird concept in which those who get the most votes are able to form government). You said it was not appropriate for Thailand. Glad you have changed your mind.

[webfact]

PM announces dissolution of parliament



BANGKOK, 9 December 2013 (NNT) – Prime Minister and Defense Minister Yingluck Shinawatra has announced the dissolution of parliament amid the increasing pressure from the anti-government demonstrators.

The Prime Minister made an official statement through the Television Pool of Thailand, announcing the dissolution of parliament, while calling for elections as soon as possible following a wave of anti-government demonstrations in various locations in Bangkok.

She said she did not want to see any more casualties in the country as she decided to give the power back to the people and let the people decide.

Despite the government’s proposal to seek solutions through talks and negotiations, the demonstrators did not want to go along with idea. Therefore, the best way to resolve the situation is to dissolve the parliament, she added.

At this stage, Miss Yingluck will stand as interim Prime Minister until the new elections are held.


-- NNT 2013-12-09

[JRSoul]

Well, by already saying it will go on even with the election Suthep has backed the Democrats into a corner -- which means I cannot see them not boycotting the election. If Suthep thought his plan was so good he would "compromise" and put it to a referendum as part of this election cycle..... but I doubt he would do that.

You can't see because of your dark red glasses. The only election boycotted was 2006, when Thaksin called a snap election 14 months into term, and with a large majority, in order to deflect criticism of his corruption. Why you can contemplate the Democrats boycotting now, when they have a corrupt government on the ropes and the rice scam collapsing around their ears, is quite incredible.

BTW PTP are already trying to blame the democrats for the failure of the rice scam. Some idiots may even believe it.

Edited December 9, 2013 by JRSoul

[Spare]

My advice to the protesters is to keep marching...

And achieve what?

Uproot Thaksin and all his connection.

[jdinasia]

Well, by already saying it will go on even with the election Suthep has backed the Democrats into a corner -- which means I cannot see them not boycotting the election. If Suthep thought his plan was so good he would "compromise" and put it to a referendum as part of this election cycle..... but I doubt he would do that.

The caretaker government AFAIK does not have the power to make changes or hold a referrendum on anything (except elections). The protesters will keep marching until this cabinet and YL resign from the caretaker positions they now hold.

I expect that the Dems will try to hang the next elections to force a constitutional crisis unless an agreement can be reached to form a Unity Government based on reform of the system.

Said Unity Government will be weak due to the nature of the coalition it will take to hold it together. It would be doing well to last a year before being dissolved and a new election called.

[MrJohnson]

Smart move by her brother,

Wipe the slate clean, get re-elected, start a fresh agenda

It won't be an easy election for them... they will have to explain too many things they've done.

It won't be an easy election for the Democrats if they persist with these tactics. Thais - it used to be said, and it's still true to an extent I reckon - are instinctively conservative and are quick to turn against political protesters, even if they're in the right. That's how the Democrats actually won the 1992 election, by NOT being part of the protests. Chuan said that he stood for democracy, but not chaos and that he believed in the parliamentary system. Chamlong lost out because he was perceived to be one of those who created a chaotic situation, despite the fact that his actions were thought to be heroic by many.

All good points EmptySet. When the heat dies down a little, as it inevitably will, and people take a hard look at Suthep's demands they will see through them. There is almost complete and universal condemnation of his demands by all social and political commentators and academics. It is time the Democrats and the rest of the opposition joined forces and beat PT at the ballot box. They can bleat all they like about vote buying but everyone concedes it happens on all sides of politics. Unfortunately you cannot say that all PT votes were purchased. It is clear that PT have a lot of genuine supporters. Bangkok is not Thailand. Things have changed. Dems have to move on otherwise they risk becoming entirely obsolete and then we really will have an autocracy here for many years to come.

[Hawkman]

Ok this is democracy in motion which cannot be denied, and the right thing to do.

Now will the opposition let the people of Thailand vote and accept the will of the (umpires) ( the people) and let the government run for the full term???

somehow I think not!!!

But if the Dems what to keep any kind of credibility then they need to accept the election result and the elite few need to accept it as well instead of this rubbish of protest when they loose yet again...

That's fair enough.

At the same time, will the Government accept that they have to run the country properly like a proper Democratic country, where they work for the people, not for themselves.

It was the Government that caused all this mess. People will accept the Government if they work for the people.

When you start working for yourself, trying to whitewash crimes, raiding the coffers, have projects that are destroying the country's finances and putting one person above all other more important policies, then yes the people will accept the Government.

You can't have it both ways, expect the people to change but not the Government,

[virtualtraveller]

Elections as soon as possible? What about the reform talks she was talking about a few days ago? What's the point, Dems will boycott like they did in April 2006, since it's too easy an exit to gain a fresh mandate and pretend nothing is wrong. One could say Yingluck won't win an outright majority this time, a potential game changer, but on the other hand Thaksin likely has BJT factions bought off, so it's debatable whether they will actually be punished at the ballot for their two years of mis-management. Thus we can see Suthep's point that this democracy is broken and elections are a waste of time for now.

[zydeco]

Yingluck is beginning to look like a rabbit in a cage with a cobra. Nowhere to run.

[apetley]

If an election comes about early next year, and that is by no means a certainty right now, then I hope the Democrats have the honour to stand for election on a platform fighting all forms of corruption. Show the people of Thailand what they have been attempting to expose in Parliament and let the electorate decide. Explain what populist policies they have and how they think it will benefit Thailand as a whole and let the electorate decide.

Hopefully they will raise their game because it is desperately needed not just for their own survival as an alternative but for Thai politics as a whole.

[CaptHaddock]

My guess is that Abhisit and Suthep will refuse to let the Democrat party participate in the elections. Their only approach is to attack democracy itself since they cannot win an election. They will come up with some reason why it is contrary to true democracy for the Democrats to stand for election and appeal to the Army to solve the resulting "impasse" which they will have created.

[tartempion]

PTP wins because of demographics controlling the largest regional block. Vote buying exists on both sides but it did not swing the election. It is just an excuse to demean a whole cross section of voters and that is why they cannot get their votes... their not that stupid to know what is being said about them.

Average IQ in Isan is 87. And yes there is massive vote buying that goes on. Just ask your Thai girlfriend about what happens

during elections back in her village.

Vote buying won't make a difference, I happen to live in Isaan and have a Thai GF.

You think the average farang to be smarter because his average IQ is higher???

The problem lies elsewhere, I guess you have no clue

[binjalin]

My guess is that Abhisit and Suthep will refuse to let the Democrat party participate in the elections. Their only approach is to attack democracy itself since they cannot win an election. They will come up with some reason why it is contrary to true democracy for the Democrats to stand for election and appeal to the Army to solve the resulting "impasse" which they will have created.

hope not but the secretary-general of the anti-government People's Democratic Reform Committee and his Dems would LOSE if they fight it because many Thais see this as a coup and they don't like their choice usurped by 'bad losers'

[jdinasia]

BTW ---- YL/Thaksin could have taken a LOT of wind out of this movement's sails by calling for elections a couple of days ago. The moderates will have stayed home.

At this point what does Suthep have to lose by getting as many people as possible out on the streets to show that people were underestimating the resistance to the Thaksin influence in Thai politics?

[Hawkman]

Well, by already saying it will go on even with the election Suthep has backed the Democrats into a corner -- which means I cannot see them not boycotting the election. If Suthep thought his plan was so good he would "compromise" and put it to a referendum as part of this election cycle..... but I doubt he would do that.

You can't see because of your dark red glasses. The only election boycotted was 2006, when Thaksin called a snap election 14 months into term, and with a large majority, in order to deflect criticism of his corruption. Why you can contemplate the Democrats boycotting now, when they have a corrupt government on the ropes and the rice scam collapsing around their ears, is quite incredible.

BTW PTP are already trying to blame the democrats for the failure of the rice scam. Some idiots may even believe it.

Red Shirt supporters will believe anything that PTP or the propaganda machine tells them, all very odd. That Thaksin was convicted due to "Political opponents or whatever" - if so, then come back and prove you're innocent. my guess is the evidence is too large. But his supporters believe his excuses.

They believe the propaganda that it's the Poor vs Elite. One you don't get more Elite than Thaksin's family; 2, many Elite either work for PTP or support PTP, yes many are against them but they have a to of backing too. 3, what about the South of Thailand, not exactly full of the rich and Elite and they are extremely anti-Thaksin.

[ricku]

It seems the march continues despite Yinglucks house dissolution.

Interesting.

Edited December 9, 2013 by ricku

[binjalin]

Elections as soon as possible? What about the reform talks she was talking about a few days ago? What's the point, Dems will boycott like they did in April 2006, since it's too easy an exit to gain a fresh mandate and pretend nothing is wrong. One could say Yingluck won't win an outright majority this time, a potential game changer, but on the other hand Thaksin likely has BJT factions bought off, so it's debatable whether they will actually be punished at the ballot for their two years of mis-management. Thus we can see Suthep's point that this democracy is broken and elections are a waste of time for now.

secretary-general of the anti-government People's Democratic Reform Committee says 'elections are a waste of time' because secretary-general of the anti-government People's Democratic Reform Committee would LOSE and his only chance of power is a coup against the democratically elected government

One thing I'm pretty convinced about is Abhisit looking very, very bad jumping on this bandwagon he would have been far smarter staying 'aloof' and convincing the popular vote that he has a credible alternative that would help the poor etc.

[RickBradford]

Yingluck is only halfway to being a democratic politician.

That is, she understands the democratic process whereby the largest number of votes give you the right to form a government.

But she doesn't understand that when you get into power, democracy does not permit you to just do whatever the hell you like simply because you have the votes.

[jdinasia]

My guess is that Abhisit and Suthep will refuse to let the Democrat party participate in the elections. Their only approach is to attack democracy itself since they cannot win an election. They will come up with some reason why it is contrary to true democracy for the Democrats to stand for election and appeal to the Army to solve the resulting "impasse" which they will have created.

Flawed logic there since not fielding a candidate is democratic, as is running a "no vote" campaign.

Those of you supporting the PTP as if they are democratic in nature need only look to the 3rd reading of the amnesty bill to see that this is not what they are. PTP completely disallowed the mandated debate on the reading of the bill, thus cutting out more than 30% of the population from access to the government. That is majoritarianism and not democracy.

[Asiantravel]

The stunning hypocrisy of these Democrats can be seen here where the interviewer at 1.14 minutes asks Abhisit in 2009 if the heat of the situation could be taken away by calling an election. Something which the present Prime Minister has readily agreed to immediately but which Abhisit responds to with a barrage of reasons why he couldn't do so.

[Sunisalom]

Smart move by her brother,

Wipe the slate clean, get re-elected, start a fresh agenda

It won't be an easy election for them... they will have to explain too many things they've done.

It won't be an easy election for the Democrats if they persist with these tactics. Thais - it used to be said, and it's still true to an extent I reckon - are instinctively conservative and are quick to turn against political protesters, even if they're in the right. That's how the Democrats actually won the 1992 election, by NOT being part of the protests. Chuan said that he stood for democracy, but not chaos and that he believed in the parliamentary system. Chamlong lost out because he was perceived to be one of those who created a chaotic situation, despite the fact that his actions were thought to be heroic by many.

One slight difference.... This has not been chaotic, and has been supported by the people who have woken up!

-mel.

[englishoak]

BTW ---- YL/Thaksin could have taken a LOT of wind out of this movement's sails by calling for elections a couple of days ago. The moderates will have stayed home.

At this point what does Suthep have to lose by getting as many people as possible out on the streets to show that people were underestimating the resistance to the Thaksin influence in Thai politics?

And if it fizzles out and becomes a nothing which knowing the attention span of most Thais it will ? everything.

The only way you get Thaksin influence out of Thai politics is to win an election properly at the ballot box, it may take two or more terms to do it but with patience and application it should be doable... thats is they have the patience and willness of effort for it, which clearly they do not.... and so it will go on, and on, and on.

Same same no different

[Crushdepth]

Good for her. I may well be wrong but I would like to think support for her in the country at large has increased following the fiascos of the last few weeks.

Fiascos like abusing state power to grant an amnesty for her criminal fugitive brother?

The Shinawatras engineered this entire debacle themselves via their conceit, arrogance and contempt for rule of law.

[jdinasia]

But you have already said you want to get rid of majoritarianism ( that weird concept in which those who get the most votes are able to form government). You said it was not appropriate for Thailand. Glad you have changed your mind.

Hmmm you no more understand the concept of majoritarianism than you do the word majority.

Majoritarianism is the concept that "we won the most votes so we can disregard the rules, laws, and mechanisms that allow a democracy to function."

It is inappropriate in any liberal democracy.

BTW there is no rule in a Westminster or parliamentary democracy that states the group with the most votes gets to form the government. You are still stuck thinking of the Republic model. Any group getting less than 50% of the seats can end up being in the opposition.

Like I said, imho, the only way forward will be a Unity Government.

[meand]

Suthep does not seem to be too difficult to outsmart. There is no denying what she said is exactly true "..they (suthep) claim to represent the people..... so let the people vote".

The problem is, when protests are started with faulty logic, it is easy to derail them. When you claim to represent the people, yet you are only representing your own cry baby needs, it just does not work, now does it Suthep.

[wedders]

Thai politics in a nutshell.

Bangkok elite has temper tantrum and throws toys out of pram to get its own way.

Sent from my GT-I9500 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[AleG]

She still needs to take a big step and resign from politics. She has to admit that she put the interests of her brother before the interests of the nation.

I don't think Yingluck will stay in politics after this, in fact I think she is VERY eager at the moment of getting as far away of the PM chair as possible.

Edited December 9, 2013 by AleG

[jdinasia]

The stunning hypocrisy of these Democrats can be seen here where the interviewer at 1.14 minutes asks Abhisit in 2009 if the heat of the situation could be taken away by calling an election. Something which the present Prime Minister has readily agreed to immediately but which Abhisit responds to with a barrage of reasons why he couldn't do so.

Another fallacious argument. This is not 2009. Yingluck and PTP were denying house dissolution and a new election as recently as yesterday.

[jdinasia]

She still needs to take a big step and resign from politics. She has to admit that she put the interests of her brother before the interests of the nation.

I don't think Yingluck won't stay in politics after this, in fact I think she is VERY eager at the moment of getting as far away of the PM chair as possible.

She is still caretaker PM .... if you are correct that means she would resign.

[DonThaiToMe]

I agree with EmptySet re vote buying if, as most posters on TVF suggest, you mean handing a bit of cash to the electorate 1 by 1.

However, the local political machines do fairly well control local politics in a manner that very much is vote buying. They get paid to deliver votes and made promises of local improvements based upon the party making the promises winning the district. They have a great deal of power locally and do use it. The village chief gets handed a wad of cash, and told you will get a new water tower, or your roads will be repaved etc if you deliver your people. Note that the contracts for the improvements go to the political allies of the government in most cases.

This makes it almost impossible for foreign observers to see the irregularities. They would 1) Have to be reported locally and 2) have someone with the political will to follow up on the reports 3) have penalties in place that actually discourage this.

What is amazing is that some people still get red carded for handing out cash.

So what you´re saying is that it works in the exact same manner it does all over the world, i.e empty promises about fixing roads, new water tower, etc, etc, to get people to vote for you?

Except maybe the "hard cash" vote buying. But I think we all know by now that both sides are pretty much equally guilty when it comes to that...