Colonized Or Not?

[boppia]

What does 'colonized' mean to you?

In this month's Bangkok Metro Magazine, one writer noted that Thailand has never been colonized. It's true that Western powers and people's haven't controlled the country but I wouldn't say the same about Easterners. Thailand's population is 30% Chinese from what I have heard. Some Chinese people I have met say Bangkok is 90% Chinese. It is the city with the highest Chinese population outside of China. Chinese people seem to control a lot of Thailand's wealth and businesses. They hold many powerful positions in the government including the position of Prime Minister and have on and off for a long time from what I gather. Lots of food seen as 'Thai' really isn't. It would seem that most stir-fried foods are actually Chinese, the silk industry here came from China. Lots of Chinese holidays seem affect the Thai nation. How Chinese is Thailand.

China never invaded Thailand but Chinese people seem to have. In the past (quite a while ago)the Chinese were discriminated against from what I've heard. Today they seem to own Thailand(not to mention other countries in SE Asia) But they did it slowly without violence. Does this sound like an accurate picture? I guess it's a lot like Singapore. Singapore was colonized by the British, right? And the Chinese?

It bothers me when people think Westerners are the only people who have ever controlled foreign lands. To me it seems that much of Asia has been taken over(colonized) by others who aren't Westerners.

What does "colonized" mean?

From "Bangkok Metro Magazine" May 2006

Article "WaiOHWhy"

" This is why Metro has posed the question "Wai Oh Why" to our readers. Don't be fooled by the Ronald Sawadee - it's as synthetic and contrived as the plastic it's been sculpted from. And don't fall for the Colonel's "Tom Yum Pik Gai" - because isn't this a form of colonialism? One of the proudest attributes of the Thai people is that Siam was never colonized. Let's keep it that way."

Everytime I hear this line about 'never being colonized' I just don't agree that Thailand hasn't been colonized in some way.

[cdnvic]

The Chinese you speak of are mostly Thai nationals. This has nothing to do with colonization. All countries have certain ethnic communities who dominate commerce at one point or another in it's development. These imbalances tend to become less prominent over time as educational and economic standards begin to become more equal across demographic lines.

Thailand has been occupied during wartime but never colonized.

cv

[egeefay]

"It bothers me when people think Westerners are the only people who have ever controlled foreign lands. To me it seems that much of Asia has been taken over(colonized) by others who aren't Westerners."

For the most part the Europeans colonized America,Asia and Africa at the point of a gun to grab the areas natural resources: gold , rubber, oil even slaves. That's a lot different from the Chinese who immigrated to Thailand , adopted Thai customs and culture , intermarried and have became an contributing part of Thai society. They came seeking a better life...not to take something that didn't belong to them back to China

[Khutan]

Its interesting to listen to the opinion of Mainland Chinese of their "cousins" that now live here.

[Nordlys]

It takes a state to colonize another state, not immigrants or descendants of immigrant. Most Chinese Thais in Thailand don't even speak Chinese, except of course the first generation immigrant. They have to renounce Chinese citizenship when they immigrate to another country. Chinese government doesn't allow dual citizenships as far as I know.

Many Chinese Thais don't even identify themselves with Chinese race, like my wife who thinks she's plain Thai. Whereas in countries like Indonesia or Malaysia, descendants of Chinese immigrants often refer to themselves as "Malaysian-Chinese" (but not Chinese-Malaysian), when asked of their nationality.

[BKK90210]

All I know is that the original thais were from the "Tai Tribe" in Southern china 2000 yrs ago,...then you got the "Mon tribe" from Mogolia and Burma,..... then the "Laos" in Issan area,....the "Mon-kameur" in southeast region,....while the arabs came up from the south which mainly from Malaysia.

So all in all it wasn't colonized, just through migration throughout the history.

You have to be able to distinguish between the "current Chineses from modern China" who mostly here for business ventures,.....and the real thai-chineses here who don't consider themselves as a chinese - but only a Thai. My dad is chinese looking who never saw himself as chinese, but only a thai. In thailand if you have a thai passport - then you're a thai, period!.....there's no thai-chinese catagory here, especially when filling out any goverment paper works.

[Sir Burr]

The reason that Thailand wasn't targeted for colonization by Western powers, was because it suited both the French and the British to have an independent buffer state between the two empires.

[Patex]

China prefers to expand (Tibet) not to colonize...

Chinese outside their homecountry have no hidden agenda, they are mostly refugees.

[English Noodles]

What does 'colonized' mean to you?

Bangkok is 90% Chinese. It is the city with the highest Chinese population outside of China.

What does "colonized" mean?

Wrong Taipai has more (chinese population in Taiwan 22 million)

Singapore 4.5 million

[Khutan]

Wrong Taipai has more (chinese population in Taiwan 22 million)

Singapore 4.5 million

Wouldn't that depend on who you ask if Taiwan is part of China or not ?

[English Noodles]

Wrong Taipai has more (chinese population in Taiwan 22 million)

Singapore 4.5 million

Wouldn't that depend on who you ask if Taiwan is part of China or not ?

Technically, Taiwan and China are still in a state of war with each other, after the two countries were seperated in 1949.

[Rinrada]

Asked the wife once if she considered herself Chinese or Thai...answer AM....THAI

.......Ok...Ok...Ok..no need to shout .........but wot about yer granny?.......sheepishly...yes shes is Chinese......figure...

she then usually comes back with something like...Do you (meaning me ) think of yourself as Scottish or English (daft question) but again....anyway...who cares......MPrai...

[English Noodles]

If you look back over time Thailand traded (gave away) much of it's land to western powers to avoid colonisation.

[Sir Burr]

Technically, Taiwan and China are still in a state of war with each other, after the two countries were seperated in 1949.

The important word you missed was civil war.

Chiang Kai Shek and his followers after losing their hold on mainland China, retreated to the province of Formosa (now Taiwan).

Most countries recognize that Taiwan is a province and not a country, including the USA.

Edited May 11, 2006 by Sir Burr

[CymruAmByth]

What does 'colonized' mean to you?

In this month's Bangkok Metro Magazine, one writer noted that Thailand has never been colonized. It's true that Western powers and people's haven't controlled the country but I wouldn't say the same about Easterners. Thailand's population is 30% Chinese from what I have heard. Some Chinese people I have met say Bangkok is 90% Chinese. It is the city with the highest Chinese population outside of China. Chinese people seem to control a lot of Thailand's wealth and businesses. They hold many powerful positions in the government including the position of Prime Minister and have on and off for a long time from what I gather. Lots of food seen as 'Thai' really isn't. It would seem that most stir-fried foods are actually Chinese, the silk industry here came from China. Lots of Chinese holidays seem affect the Thai nation. How Chinese is Thailand.

China never invaded Thailand but Chinese people seem to have. In the past (quite a while ago)the Chinese were discriminated against from what I've heard. Today they seem to own Thailand(not to mention other countries in SE Asia) But they did it slowly without violence. Does this sound like an accurate picture? I guess it's a lot like Singapore. Singapore was colonized by the British, right? And the Chinese?

It bothers me when people think Westerners are the only people who have ever controlled foreign lands. To me it seems that much of Asia has been taken over(colonized) by others who aren't Westerners.

What does "colonized" mean?

From "Bangkok Metro Magazine" May 2006

Article "WaiOHWhy"

" This is why Metro has posed the question "Wai Oh Why" to our readers. Don't be fooled by the Ronald Sawadee - it's as synthetic and contrived as the plastic it's been sculpted from. And don't fall for the Colonel's "Tom Yum Pik Gai" - because isn't this a form of colonialism? One of the proudest attributes of the Thai people is that Siam was never colonized. Let's keep it that way."

Everytime I hear this line about 'never being colonized' I just don't agree that Thailand hasn't been colonized in some way.

Taken from a recent reply to one of my posts about 'Running a Business'. The whole study take about an hour to read and is most interesting. This is an abstract from it regarding your own post.

Introduction to Thailand

Thais enjoy reminding foreigners (whom they call farangs) that Thailand

means “land of the free.” Its citizens are proud of the fact that the kingdom

has never been a colony of Western nations. However, citizens never discuss

the fact that Thailand has been occupied many times over the centuries by invaders

from Cambodia, Laos, Burma, and other parts of southeast Asia.

These frequent invasions have occurred in part because the nation’s geographic

location is strategic, at the crossroads of many different civilizations.

In fact, an early Thai king deliberately chose Bangkok as the nation’s capital

because it was below sea level. If an invading army appeared to be successful,

the Thais planned to blow up the dikes and flood the city, thus making it

of no value to an invader.

Courtesy of a study by the following: Hendon, Donald W., and Rebecca Angeles Hendon, (1989), How to Negotiate

Worldwide: A Practical Handbook London: Gower Publishing.

Hendon, Donald W., an

I have also heard on good authority that details of the above 'colonisations' are not dwelt upon when schooling young Thai's in history? No flames please...that is an observation not a critisism!

[elGrande]

What does 'colonized' mean to you?

In this month's Bangkok Metro Magazine, one writer noted that Thailand has never been colonized. It's true that Western powers and people's haven't controlled the country but I wouldn't say the same about Easterners. Everytime I hear this line about 'never being colonized' I just don't agree that Thailand hasn't been colonized in some way.

Not colonized??? Seems like the good old thai closed minded education system at work.

Thailand was defacto colonized by the japs in WW2. the Thais didnt even put up a fight, just rolled over ... nothing to be proud of for sure.

[English Noodles]

Most countries recognize that Taiwan is a province and not a country, including the USA.

Yes this is a strange stance for the US considering it sold weapons to Taiwan. I wonder what they thought then?

[Patex]

...In fact, an early Thai king deliberately chose Bangkok as the nation’s capital

because it was below sea level. If an invading army appeared to be successful,

the Thais planned to blow up the dikes and flood the city, thus making it

of no value to an invader.

Bangkok under sea level? Dikes??

Were these facts come from?

[Sir Burr]

Not colonized??? Seems like the good old thai closed minded education system at work.

Thailand was defacto colonized by the japs in WW2. the Thais didnt even put up a fight, just rolled over ... nothing to be proud of for sure.

That was an "occupation", not a colonization.

[greenwanderer108]

At first archeologists always rested back that the Thais we know migrated south from China. Then they started discovering some of the oldest evidence of civilization in Isarn, tracing and suggesting that the larger more significant migration actually came from the South i.e. Indo/NZ/Australia...

There is no point to give yourselves a headache pondering questions like 'Who were the first Thais?' or 'Where did Thais come from initially?'

The first line of the Thai national anthem states that

'Thailand brings together (mixes) flesh and blood to be (make up) Thai ethnicity'

Or something along those lines...

Anyway, if you ask me, Thailand is just a big breeding ground as has always been...War and other attrocities have almost destroyed this nation, but it is love and cross-mating between opposing families / different races that have persisted and kept the big Elephant a solid nation with still so much mateable eye candy...

Even all the 'full Chinese' and 'full Thais' have lots of farang, indian, and african in them...Just take a walk down Nana plaza or in one of the bath houses to see this...

[Axel]

Most countries recognize that Taiwan is a province and not a country, including the USA.

Yes this is a strange stance for the US considering it sold weapons to Taiwan. I wonder what they thought then?

Money and guilt. Until the 1970ies most countries recognized only the ROC but than changed diplomatic relations to Beijing.

Small correction on the population of Taipei:

The population of Taipei is 2.63 million. The population of Taiwan is 22,191,087.

http://www.lacity.org/SisterCities/taipei1.htm

Taipei City is the capital of the Republic of China and the largest city on Taiwan island.

Home to 2,618,058 people (March, 2006 census data, excluding Taipei County),

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taipei

[CymruAmByth]

...In fact, an early Thai king deliberately chose Bangkok as the nation’s capital

because it was below sea level. If an invading army appeared to be successful,

the Thais planned to blow up the dikes and flood the city, thus making it

of no value to an invader.

Bangkok under sea level? Dikes??

Were these facts come from?

Good Point!

Upon checking a fair number of scientific sites on good 'ol Google, it seems that the authors of that particular study must have it wrong!

Bangkok, it appears, is a mighty 6 feet above sea level, but in grave danger should global warming....blah blah.

Apologies if the original posting has caused a mass evacuation to higher ground.

[The Dan Sai Kid]

Where do people get these facts from - Bangkok is 90% ethnically Chinese!

People never mention the mass Laos migration - which occured to a far greater extent - causing a very large part of the country to speak a different language.

[English Noodles]

sorry i was refering to the metropolitan area not just the city proper. Just as when people quote stats about Bangkoks population they are talking about the metropolitan area not just Bangkok proper.

[chanchao]

> The reason that Thailand wasn't targeted for colonization by Western

> powers, was because it suited both the French and the British to have

> an independent buffer state between the two empires.

I alsays wondered about that. Was there ever really that big a need to have miles and miles of land in between bits controlled by England and bits controlled by France? In other places I've never seen such a need expressed.

What I CAN see is something like "we don't take it if you promise not to either".. But then again it would be just as easy to imagine that they'd just carve it up and take equal shares.. it's happened elsewhere.

But 'a buffer'.. really?

[kat]

uh, yes, really. That is a historical fact. The rivalry and competition that existed between the two colonial empires is also a historical fact.

[taxexile]

Thailand was defacto colonized by the japs in WW2. the Thais didnt even put up a fight, just rolled over ... nothing to be proud of for sure.

everything to be proud of , it was a very pragmatic decision.

had they fought the japanese , they would have been destroyed not only by the japanese , but by the allies who would have had to bring the war to thailand.

read about how the japanese treated the civilian population of manchuria during their occupation there , and you will see that thailand made the right decision.

[astral]

No Western colonisation, BUT

Burmese and Cambodian invasions yes.

Out past Buri Ram they do not speak Thai, just a Cambodian dialect

Not to mention the Japanese invasion in WWII.

In many ways the real colonisers are the Chinese.

Just look at the government (it is said that Cabinet meetings could be held in the Tiachoo dialect and no-one would be inconvenienced) and large businesses as well.

That is why the immigration policy is so strict.

Now there are in, the door is closed to all others =.

Edited May 11, 2006 by astral

[skylar]

> The reason that Thailand wasn't targeted for colonization by Western

> powers, was because it suited both the French and the British to have

> an independent buffer state between the two empires.

I alsays wondered about that. Was there ever really that big a need to have miles and miles of land in between bits controlled by England and bits controlled by France? In other places I've never seen such a need expressed.

What I CAN see is something like "we don't take it if you promise not to either".. But then again it would be just as easy to imagine that they'd just carve it up and take equal shares.. it's happened elsewhere.

But 'a buffer'.. really?

Another, more important reason perhaps is that Thailand built up good diplomatic relations with England and France, in contrast to other Asian countries in the region during the Western colonisation period. Thai kings sent their sons to study at university level in both countries as well as the States to ensure that Western knowledge was being brought back to Thailand to enhance diplomatic relations and thus fend off enthusiastic would be colonial rulers. Western nations looked down on non-white nations as backwards and uncivilised, so it was in the monarchy's best interests to make Thailand appear modern and civilised according to Western standards so that colonisation would be avoided.

[Ulysses G.]

The White Man's Burden - those were the good old days!