Is the PDRC about to blow its undeniable support?: Thai politics

[Bpuumike]

I am curious as to how you can grant legitimacy to the reds who protested in the streets and deny it to Sutheps group. I don't think Suthep is anybodys ideal leader, but you can't deny that he led the largest protest this country has ever seen. Those people didn't turn out because of Suthep, they came because a corrupt government tried to ram through an amnesty bill to benefit an even more corrupt individual. Surely there must be some accountability for that.

I certainly agree that the reasons for the protest were the ill-considered and -conceived Amnesty Bill and that this was a cause worthy of protest. However, they've achieved their goal, the Amnesty Bill has been withdrawn and the Government has been dissolved in favour of elections.

WHY can't you get that the amnesty bill has been "withdrawn" but is NOT dead IF the current government remains for another, what, 140 days? Why do so many protester critics act so obtuse about this? The protesters undoubtedly recognize as well that re-electing the PTP will without a doubt simply resurrect this issue, along with all the other shenanigans for which they've been responsible, including the abuse of majority status to further tinker with the constitution. The PTP's lost legitimacy won't magically return with their re-election, and the protesters are demanding a better democracy "framework" than 4 wolves & a sheep deciding the dinner menu...

Thanks for responding.

Of course they're not going to re-submit the Amnesty Bill, that's dead in the water. If they don't realize that, then they're pretty dumb, and while you can accuse Thaksin et al of many things, being stupid is not one of them. It took them two years to get to the point where they thought they could bring the Amnesty Bill forward and win, and it failed. You really think they'll have another go right after getting elected so they can get kicked out again? They're very likely to lose some electoral support as a result of that miscalculation, and being professional politicians they will certainly get the message that this is a no go.

And if the goal of the protesters is to create a better democracy framework, then how on earth is this to be done when you go completely against the constitution and existing laws that govern the country and ignore the vote of what is more than half the population? You really think that Suthep's proposal will convince anyone outside of his core supporters when it doesn't even have any details of how it's going to be implemented and eliminates the participation of the people who were voted in?

You accept that the PTP is likely to be voted in if an election is held, as do practically every observer on the forum regardless of which side they're on. So why is nobody on the protesting side looking at ways to come to a reasonable compromise and involve the people that even they accept will win an election to come up with a way to solve the problem? Yingluck invited the opposition to join in discussions and was summarily rejected and given an ultimatum to get out of the country after giving concessions to the opposition. This is how you achieve these goals? This is participatory? This is demonstrating a will to come together for the good of the country? Really?

No, this is how you deal with someone who has dealt with YOU using deceipt, intimidation and heavy-handedness, demonstrating that they cannot be trusted and owe their allegiance to a puppetmaster working from abroad, unable to even show his own face even as business is being done in his, and only his, best interests. In other words, this is how you deal with someone who has no credibility, and an obvious agenda that is not in the national interest.

As I understand it you are correct that if the current party are re-elected then the Amnesty Bill will automatically pass. The (unelected)PM might change but doesn't matter so long as it's the same party.

[JCauto]

As I understand it you are correct that if the current party are re-elected then the Amnesty Bill will automatically pass. The (unelected)PM might change but doesn't matter so long as it's the same party.

There is no such thing as a bill that "automatically passes". Can you explain what you mean? My point was that it is now crystal clear that no Amnesty Bill can be passed because it triggers a protest and is not politically viable.

Edited December 13, 2013 by JCauto

[hawker9000]

No, this is how you deal with someone who has dealt with YOU using deceipt, intimidation and heavy-handedness, demonstrating that they cannot be trusted and owe their allegiance to a puppetmaster working from abroad, unable to even show his own face even as business is being done in his, and only his, best interests. In other words, this is how you deal with someone who has no credibility, and an obvious agenda that is not in the national interest.

Okay, so two wrongs actually do make a right? And this won't throw the country into the next stage of the cycle, where the Reds come and bring Bangkok and the government to a standstill and the cycle repeats. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

...Hoisted on your own aphorism...

I pick #2 (doing the same thing over & over again - i.e., once again putting one's faith & trust in the Thaksin-loving PTP - and expecting a different result) .

[JCauto]

No, this is how you deal with someone who has dealt with YOU using deceipt, intimidation and heavy-handedness, demonstrating that they cannot be trusted and owe their allegiance to a puppetmaster working from abroad, unable to even show his own face even as business is being done in his, and only his, best interests. In other words, this is how you deal with someone who has no credibility, and an obvious agenda that is not in the national interest.

Okay, so two wrongs actually do make a right? And this won't throw the country into the next stage of the cycle, where the Reds come and bring Bangkok and the government to a standstill and the cycle repeats. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

...Hoisted on your own aphorism...

I pick #2 (doing the same thing over & over again - i.e., once again putting one's faith & trust in the Thaksin-loving PTP - and expecting a different result) .

Hardly. #2 is the inevitable consequence of #1, hence my point being that you can't keep trying to install a regime through non-democratic means and expect it to work. It's been tried, it has failed, it will fail again. I have further pointed out that the constitution that currently exists is one that was prepared by a similar means and by similar people, and it has again resulted in the same old cycle. Why would you expect it to change? Oh yes, get rid of the evil Shins, and all will be unicorns and rainbows, as if other oligarchs and corrupt politicians don't and have never existed. Including Suthep.

Here's one that hasn't been tried - let the elected government serve out their term, maintain a strong opposition to act as a check and balance along with existing institutions (which has already been demonstrated to work) and as an opposition engage and promote pro-poor policies that appeal to those outside of your (too) narrow political base so that you can gain a mandate to implement whatever changes you want to make rather than using illegal means to force your minority views on the rest of the population. You can't disenfranchise a large sector of the people and expect them to swallow what you force feed them and wonder why they keep voting you out.

[rojack45]

Don't you think it's better than having any of the

"Shinawatra" scums? they've taken over excessively

they've put their hands into anything n everything...it's just

simple deduction! At least Suthep dared voice

n stand up at last someone did. Where else you

others nag n nag n gossip n do nothing no wonder

the situation is what it is today! Excuse the

the saying "all fart but no shit!!!"

So wake up guys, be thankful for a step at a time!

I have been very reluctant to post my 2 cents worth here as it won't change the situation in Thailand one iota, but I can't hold it in any longer. I really don't understand how and why the hatred for Thaksin and his entire family has such a death-grip on so many posters here. Yes he is a corrupt politician who used his considerable wealth to win an election. And once in power he made deals with tax payer money which lined his pockets. We all get that.

But how about a perspective and reality check?

I am guessing that at least some of the haters who are calling for his execution and the expulsion of his entire family from their country are American citizens. Or if not American citizens, you are at least familiar with political history for the past 12 yrs or so.

Funny but after 8 years of George dubya and DC mindlessly pursuing a war (costing trillions of dollars, not baht) justified with lies and fabricated evidence, and massive conflicts of interest in Pentagon spending that lined the pockets of politicians- can you say Halliburton? And nearly a trillion dollars of tax payer money to bail out the big wall street banks and bankers whose reckless and often illegal actions created a world wide recession that we are all still suffering thru. And a very controversial Florida vote count (read fishy, suspicious, whatever) that allowed that moron and his cronies another 4 years to continue to decimate a country at the expense of minorities, the poor, and the middle class. You guys want to talk about buying votes and corrupt deals in Thailand? Thaksin is a play ground amateur compared to the GOP.

And yet I have never heard any calls for the "Bush Regime" to be ended or for rules forbidding any of his family or friends from running for government. No calls for Cheney's execution for the untold thousands of deaths he was in large part responsible for. And we all know I could go on and on and on and on.....

My point is this.... All of you who are advocating for the suspension of democracy in this country need to wake up. Every democratic government on the planet has purchased their term in one fashion or another. Via populist platforms, promises of the good life to come, vilifying the opposition etc. And then comes the patronage appointments. The voting on bills that harm the constituents and profits the donors. Why do you think Obama got elected in the first place? People were sick and tired of the lies and the corruption and government waste and purchased politicians. Like I said, Thaksin is a rookie compared to the crooks running Washington. Can you even imagine suggesting that no one in the Bush family be allowed to run for office ever again?

Flame away....

R

[spare5]

Don't you think it's better than having any of the

"Shinawatra" scums? they've taken over excessively

they've put their hands into anything n everything...it's just

simple deduction! At least Suthep dared voice

n stand up at last someone did. Where else you

others nag n nag n gossip n do nothing no wonder

the situation is what it is today! Excuse the

the saying "all fart but no shit!!!"

So wake up guys, be thankful for a step at a time!

I have been very reluctant to post my 2 cents worth here as it won't change the situation in Thailand one iota, but I can't hold it in any longer. I really don't understand how and why the hatred for Thaksin and his entire family has such a death-grip on so many posters here. Yes he is a corrupt politician who used his considerable wealth to win an election. And once in power he made deals with tax payer money which lined his pockets. We all get that.

But how about a perspective and reality check?

I am guessing that at least some of the haters who are calling for his execution and the expulsion of his entire family from their country are American citizens. Or if not American citizens, you are at least familiar with political history for the past 12 yrs or so.

Funny but after 8 years of George dubya and DC mindlessly pursuing a war (costing trillions of dollars, not baht) justified with lies and fabricated evidence, and massive conflicts of interest in Pentagon spending that lined the pockets of politicians- can you say Halliburton? And nearly a trillion dollars of tax payer money to bail out the big wall street banks and bankers whose reckless and often illegal actions created a world wide recession that we are all still suffering thru. And a very controversial Florida vote count (read fishy, suspicious, whatever) that allowed that moron and his cronies another 4 years to continue to decimate a country at the expense of minorities, the poor, and the middle class. You guys want to talk about buying votes and corrupt deals in Thailand? Thaksin is a play ground amateur compared to the GOP.

And yet I have never heard any calls for the "Bush Regime" to be ended or for rules forbidding any of his family or friends from running for government. No calls for Cheney's execution for the untold thousands of deaths he was in large part responsible for. And we all know I could go on and on and on and on.....

My point is this.... All of you who are advocating for the suspension of democracy in this country need to wake up. Every democratic government on the planet has purchased their term in one fashion or another. Via populist platforms, promises of the good life to come, vilifying the opposition etc. And then comes the patronage appointments. The voting on bills that harm the constituents and profits the donors. Why do you think Obama got elected in the first place? People were sick and tired of the lies and the corruption and government waste and purchased politicians. Like I said, Thaksin is a rookie compared to the crooks running Washington. Can you even imagine suggesting that no one in the Bush family be allowed to run for office ever again?

Flame away....

R

Agree with you totally. I admire that the American have patient, will Thai have not. I respect your view.

An American witness an accident in the middle of no where. He knew it is messy, and the hospital is the best place for help, even though the hospital is 2 hours away. He call the hospital, waited 2 hours and help came. But that time, it may or may not be too late, but he followed the rule. Don't try to help, because you may be sued.

Thai is different. Suthep witness the same accident. If he wait for help, the injured could die. If he help first with his limited 1st aid, it may or may not make a different. He tried anyway. The injured may die while Suthep help, but he already tried his best. Suthep knew he may be sued, but he tried anyway.

[tomacht8]

Interesting opinions.

I'm not afraid that Suthep will build up a Kingdom/ dictatorship or what ever for himself.

He did not have any support for that. He knows that.

He is the man for the rough ton. His goal is to stop the Shin clan.

Coincidentally, that would also mean defacto to stop the corruption in the country now.

So why everybody let him move and shout?

The police could sacked him, the army could sacked him. The courts could sacked him.

In the background the courts are working now.

- Pheu Thai spokesman Prompong gets one-year imprisonment without suspension

- Abhisit due in court over 2010 crackdown (Suthep will follow sure)

- Bt2 trillion loan bill halted, pending court ruling

- NACC to investigate backers of charter change draft (maybe they ban 312 members)

Maybe a great chance to getting the corruption down in Thailand.

Hopefully it all turns now into an clear anti - corruption movement

with concrete suggestions for improvement.

The frame is clear: Peace and unity.

PS:

- It must be prevented in the future, that a country can be completely plundered by a few unethical people just because they are currently in power.

- When public funds are used, then the public has the right to see what the representatives of the people plan to do with the money and how it was used.

Removing the Shin clan will remove corruption in Thailand? You should put in a when you tell jokes because otherwise people might not get it. In this case, it's probably worthy of a . What? You weren't joking?

You know the great corruption fighter Suthep has quite a lot of experience in this field, right? Just google "Suthep Thaugsuban" and "Sor Por Kor", then do the same with "cooking oil", and with "police station construction". This is your white knight coming to slay the corruption dragon.

So what is your position then?

Can you give a description, how Thailand can fight corruption today?

[binjalin]

Don't you think it's better than having any of the

"Shinawatra" scums? they've taken over excessively

they've put their hands into anything n everything...it's just

simple deduction! At least Suthep dared voice

n stand up at last someone did. Where else you

others nag n nag n gossip n do nothing no wonder

the situation is what it is today! Excuse the

the saying "all fart but no shit!!!"

So wake up guys, be thankful for a step at a time!

I have been very reluctant to post my 2 cents worth here as it won't change the situation in Thailand one iota, but I can't hold it in any longer. I really don't understand how and why the hatred for Thaksin and his entire family has such a death-grip on so many posters here. Yes he is a corrupt politician who used his considerable wealth to win an election. And once in power he made deals with tax payer money which lined his pockets. We all get that.

But how about a perspective and reality check?

I am guessing that at least some of the haters who are calling for his execution and the expulsion of his entire family from their country are American citizens. Or if not American citizens, you are at least familiar with political history for the past 12 yrs or so.

Funny but after 8 years of George dubya and DC mindlessly pursuing a war (costing trillions of dollars, not baht) justified with lies and fabricated evidence, and massive conflicts of interest in Pentagon spending that lined the pockets of politicians- can you say Halliburton? And nearly a trillion dollars of tax payer money to bail out the big wall street banks and bankers whose reckless and often illegal actions created a world wide recession that we are all still suffering thru. And a very controversial Florida vote count (read fishy, suspicious, whatever) that allowed that moron and his cronies another 4 years to continue to decimate a country at the expense of minorities, the poor, and the middle class. You guys want to talk about buying votes and corrupt deals in Thailand? Thaksin is a play ground amateur compared to the GOP.

And yet I have never heard any calls for the "Bush Regime" to be ended or for rules forbidding any of his family or friends from running for government. No calls for Cheney's execution for the untold thousands of deaths he was in large part responsible for. And we all know I could go on and on and on and on.....

My point is this.... All of you who are advocating for the suspension of democracy in this country need to wake up. Every democratic government on the planet has purchased their term in one fashion or another. Via populist platforms, promises of the good life to come, vilifying the opposition etc. And then comes the patronage appointments. The voting on bills that harm the constituents and profits the donors. Why do you think Obama got elected in the first place? People were sick and tired of the lies and the corruption and government waste and purchased politicians. Like I said, Thaksin is a rookie compared to the crooks running Washington. Can you even imagine suggesting that no one in the Bush family be allowed to run for office ever again?

Flame away....

R

Agree with you totally. I admire that the American have patient, will Thai have not. I respect your view.

An American witness an accident in the middle of no where. He knew it is messy, and the hospital is the best place for help, even though the hospital is 2 hours away. He call the hospital, waited 2 hours and help came. But that time, it may or may not be too late, but he followed the rule. Don't try to help, because you may be sued.

Thai is different. Suthep witness the same accident. If he wait for help, the injured could die. If he help first with his limited 1st aid, it may or may not make a different. He tried anyway. The injured may die while Suthep help, but he already tried his best. Suthep knew he may be sued, but he tried anyway.

Problem is Suthep cause the accident

[englishoak]

An American witness an accident in the middle of no where. He knew it is messy, and the hospital is the best place for help, even though the hospital is 2 hours away. He call the hospital, waited 2 hours and help came. But that time, it may or may not be too late, but he followed the rule. Don't try to help, because you may be sued.

Thai is different. Suthep witness the same accident. If he wait for help, the injured could die. If he help first with his limited 1st aid, it may or may not make a different. He tried anyway. The injured may die while Suthep help, but he already tried his best. Suthep knew he may be sued, but he tried anyway.

Difference is Suthep is Thai and would just have to pay someone off or due to his poo yai standing nothing at all. Probably the 1st aid provided would be whatever he felt like doing instead of informed

An american would just be seen as an open wallet opportunity. Happens all the time. Plus the amount the American would be sued for would be much much more than any Thai as usual due to the 2 tier farang rip off scam

[Smokemachine]

Suthep is the only one who dare to bring them down openly. But too bad because of his past wrongdoing, people start to question his credibilty and his real intention. Accusing him of trying change the current " TS DEMOCRACY" system to his dictatorship.

The reform party should have find a new face with clean records to challenge the TS regime. Then probably will shut these pro-TS mouth up.

All these TS supporters conveniently pointing on Suthep while nothing is talk about the current govt.

The current picture is painted like a ex-con man, a madman, a cun_t man, or whatever man they can put Suthep as is trying to take down our beloved YL govt. A government who is scamming caring for the nation and the thai people.

So many are helping TS. What will Thailand's destiny be??

Sa toot........

[inutil]

Its going one of two ways

Either

PT romp to power in february 2014.

Or

Suthep gets his way and thailand lives under a dictatorship for two years and then

PT (or whichever party name they now have since theyve been banned) romp home in 2016.

Utterly idiotic. Did you know china just landed on the moon? First time in my lifetime. Amazing stuff. And here we are trying to force dictatorships on poor people somehow in the name of democracy.

[hawker9000]

Don't you think it's better than having any of the

"Shinawatra" scums? they've taken over excessively

they've put their hands into anything n everything...it's just

simple deduction! At least Suthep dared voice

n stand up at last someone did. Where else you

others nag n nag n gossip n do nothing no wonder

the situation is what it is today! Excuse the

the saying "all fart but no shit!!!"

So wake up guys, be thankful for a step at a time!

I have been very reluctant to post my 2 cents worth here as it won't change the situation in Thailand one iota, but I can't hold it in any longer. I really don't understand how and why the hatred for Thaksin and his entire family has such a death-grip on so many posters here. Yes he is a corrupt politician who used his considerable wealth to win an election. And once in power he made deals with tax payer money which lined his pockets. We all get that.

But how about a perspective and reality check?

I am guessing that at least some of the haters who are calling for his execution and the expulsion of his entire family from their country are American citizens. Or if not American citizens, you are at least familiar with political history for the past 12 yrs or so.

Funny but after 8 years of George dubya and DC mindlessly pursuing a war (costing trillions of dollars, not baht) justified with lies and fabricated evidence, and massive conflicts of interest in Pentagon spending that lined the pockets of politicians- can you say Halliburton? And nearly a trillion dollars of tax payer money to bail out the big wall street banks and bankers whose reckless and often illegal actions created a world wide recession that we are all still suffering thru. And a very controversial Florida vote count (read fishy, suspicious, whatever) that allowed that moron and his cronies another 4 years to continue to decimate a country at the expense of minorities, the poor, and the middle class. You guys want to talk about buying votes and corrupt deals in Thailand? Thaksin is a play ground amateur compared to the GOP.

And yet I have never heard any calls for the "Bush Regime" to be ended or for rules forbidding any of his family or friends from running for government. No calls for Cheney's execution for the untold thousands of deaths he was in large part responsible for. And we all know I could go on and on and on and on.....

My point is this.... All of you who are advocating for the suspension of democracy in this country need to wake up. Every democratic government on the planet has purchased their term in one fashion or another. Via populist platforms, promises of the good life to come, vilifying the opposition etc. And then comes the patronage appointments. The voting on bills that harm the constituents and profits the donors. Why do you think Obama got elected in the first place? People were sick and tired of the lies and the corruption and government waste and purchased politicians. Like I said, Thaksin is a rookie compared to the crooks running Washington. Can you even imagine suggesting that no one in the Bush family be allowed to run for office ever again?

Flame away....

R

Agree with you totally. I admire that the American have patient, will Thai have not. I respect your view.

An American witness an accident in the middle of no where. He knew it is messy, and the hospital is the best place for help, even though the hospital is 2 hours away. He call the hospital, waited 2 hours and help came. But that time, it may or may not be too late, but he followed the rule. Don't try to help, because you may be sued.

Thai is different. Suthep witness the same accident. If he wait for help, the injured could die. If he help first with his limited 1st aid, it may or may not make a different. He tried anyway. The injured may die while Suthep help, but he already tried his best. Suthep knew he may be sued, but he tried anyway.

Problem is Suthep cause the accident

...and the PTP, through its excesses and abandonment of legitimacy, not to mention their ill-begotten attempt to bring back Thaksin, created Suthep. Democracy ended with the PTP, not with Suthep. I don't like Suthep either. But he's not a fugitive from Thai justice - the police can arrest him any time they choose - and will almost certainly never get anywhere near the PM chair no matter what happens. Suthep didn't appear out of thin air; Sutheps are what happen when a majority party runs amok, abuses its power, oversteps its bounds, and outrages the public conscience. If the PTP would simply repudiate Thaksin publically (demanding the revocation of his passport and his extradition for imprisonment), I'm not so sure the Suthep machine wouldn't slowly grind to a halt. Edited December 15, 2013 by hawker9000