Red-shirts view on reform sought

[webfact]

Reds' view on reform sought
Erich Parpart
The Nation


Anti-government protesters drape large and long Thai flags along the perimeter fence of Government House yesterday as an act of defiance against ruling politicians and police.

Private mediators invite UDD to voice its views on political changes

BANGKOK: -- In a bid to facilitate political reforms, seven private-sector organisations invited the red-shirt United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship (UDD) for discussions after their meeting this week with Suthep Thaugsuban, secretary-general of the People's Democratic Reform Committee (PDRC).

The seven organisations said there was an urgent need for a national reform plan, but at a press conference yesterday, they did not specify whether reforms should take place before or after next year's election on February 2.

"There are going to be other meetings because we cannot gather all information and propose it here at our first meeting," said Vichai Assarasakorn, vice chairman of the Thai Chamber of Commerce. "Today is more about options than solutions … we need to listen to all sides and find a way to work together with our differences. The most important thing to keep in mind is society as a whole.

"We have spoken to Khun Suthep and have gained a better understanding of what the PDRC has to offer. Now we want to hear what the UDD has to say about reform and what it has to offer. Once we have gathered enough information, we should be able to provide more guidelines on the reform process," Vichai said.

Four options were raised after the first meeting with the PDRC, dealing with the economy, the electoral system, inequality and corruption. These will be proposed at the other two forums to be hosted by the military today and with the government tomorrow.

The private organisations that offered to be "a stage for mediators" are the Thai Chamber of Commerce/Board of Trade; the Tourism Council of Thailand; the Thai Bankers' Association; the Federation of Thai Industries; the Federation of Thai Capital Market Organisations; the Stock Exchange of Thailand; and the Thai Listed Companies Association.

Several economists have voiced their concerns about the impact the political impasse will have on the economy - saying continued conflict could hurt Thailand's economic recovery next year. With no positive news of economic recovery, foreign investors have been dumping Thai shares heavily to seek higher returns in the United States, where interest rates are expected to rise after tapering on quantitative easing.

The SET Index lost 1.5 per cent this week, as month-to-date foreign net-sells hit Bt32.6 billion. FTI chairman Payungsak Chartsutipol said on the sidelines of the press conference that political conflict was the biggest risk to the economy and there was a chance that foreign investors could move their operations to other countries, primarily Malaysia. One of the biggest concerns of foreign investors was whether Thailand's election would take place as planned, he said.

Seeking to end the political conflict, the private-sector organisations, which say their members represent all business sectors, urged public ratification to end corruption, promote reconciliation, and pave the way for reforms in key areas of society. They believe reforms are necessary to lessen the current tensions and to ensure political stability in the future.

Social commitment, they said, could be sought now or after the election. This could be achieved if all parties put aside questions of how, when, or whether these reforms were lawful, and realise how necessary and urgent it was for Thailand to implement reforms.


-- The Nation 2013-12-14

[Roadman]

They are on the right track and being independent of government may be the sort of group for the best best solution for a reform platform. Will not have time for prior to the election, but whoever drives reform needs commitment from all political groups prior to the elections that reform will be adhered to.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Roadman

[MaxLee]

Private mediators invite UDD to voice its views on political changes

.......

The seven organisations said there was an urgent need for a national reform plan, but at a press conference yesterday, they did not specify whether reforms should take place before or after next year's election on February 2....

"There are going to be other meetings because we cannot gather all information and propose it here at our first meeting," said Vichai Assarasakorn, vice chairman of the Thai Chamber of Commerce. "Today is more about options than solutions … we need to listen to all sides and find a way to work together with our differences. The most important thing to keep in mind is society as a whole.

Reds' view on reform sought....

... no change at all, just keep the vote buying going, keep the amnesty bill alive until next June to propose it again, create new brainwashing populist policies, murder certain rebel activist and get away without charge, delay the time for banned Thai Rak Thai members to get ready to rule again, I-I-I-ME-ME-ME-First-serving-megaprojects-pull-through, I-I-I-ME-ME-ME-rice-pledging-SCAM to continue no questions asked, I-I-I-ME-ME-ME-just-import-only-no-export-sharing.

And finally: Reds' view on reform sought.... keep on with more corruption and be prepared for the upcoming republic of S( C)HINAWATRA

... in other words RED-mocracy will rule

[Siripon]

I've never heard the red leaders proposals for reform.

Now's the time boys, call a meeting urgently, you've only got a few hours to think up some ideas.

[EricBerg]

The reds now are as the commies in the cold war: flexible as a concrete stake. Hope I'm mistaken

[Emptyset]

The reds now are as the commies in the cold war: flexible as a concrete stake. Hope I'm mistaken

Huh, the reds accept an election, Suthep says he's unwilling to negotiate about the 'People's Council', it must be put in place before he'll stand down. Yet you're calling the red shirts inflexible?

[Emptyset]

I've never heard the red leaders proposals for reform.

Now's the time boys, call a meeting urgently, you've only got a few hours to think up some ideas.

So calling for a return to the 1997 charter, a fully elected senate, reformed judiciary aren't proposals for reform? Or are the only reforms you're willing to accept undemocratic reforms? Not to say the reforms the reds wanted to see aren't as self serving as the ones Suthep and the elite want, but they are reforms nevertheless.

[EricBerg]

The reds now are as the commies in the cold war: flexible as a concrete stake. Hope I'm mistaken

Huh, the reds accept an election, Suthep says he's unwilling to negotiate about the 'People's Council', it must be put in place before he'll stand down. Yet you're calling the red shirts inflexible?

Elections means more of the same. Suthep's completely lost it. He's living in his own little world. That's a whole different league.

[JRSoul]

The UDD is no more representative of the rural Thai population the the KKK. They are an unelected, undemocratic collection of Thaksin's paid stooges and propagandists, and any "reforms" that they ever suggested were changes to benefit the man with the money.

[Emptyset]

The UDD is no more representative of the rural Thai population the the KKK. They are an unelected, undemocratic collection of Thaksin's paid stooges and propagandists, and any "reforms" that they ever suggested were changes to benefit the man with the money.

Absurd post and I realize you say it to get a reaction rather than to make a serious contribution to the debate, but if the UDD are unelected, Suthep's group are... what? Not only are they themselves unelected, they're also proposing that the elected government step down in order to be replaced by a selected council. So I hardly think you can justifiably criticize the UDD on that basis if you're supporting Suthep's group.

[noikrit]

And where is Yingluck going to be when all these reform talks take place ????? Shopping with the national police chief

[Nacho]

The UDD is no more representative of the rural Thai population the the KKK. They are an unelected, undemocratic collection of Thaksin's paid stooges and propagandists, and any "reforms" that they ever suggested were changes to benefit the man with the money.

Absurd post and I realize you say it to get a reaction rather than to make a serious contribution to the debate, but if the UDD are unelected, Suthep's group are... what? Not only are they themselves unelected, they're also proposing that the elected government step down in order to be replaced by a selected council. So I hardly think you can justifiably criticize the UDD on that basis if you're supporting Suthep's group.

I can't understand why people get all defensive when people call the reds what they are, then use the but the dems, or but Suthep. 95% of posters on here can see that Suthep has lost the plot, but that doesn't change what the reds really are.

[Emptyset]

The UDD is no more representative of the rural Thai population the the KKK. They are an unelected, undemocratic collection of Thaksin's paid stooges and propagandists, and any "reforms" that they ever suggested were changes to benefit the man with the money.

Absurd post and I realize you say it to get a reaction rather than to make a serious contribution to the debate, but if the UDD are unelected, Suthep's group are... what? Not only are they themselves unelected, they're also proposing that the elected government step down in order to be replaced by a selected council. So I hardly think you can justifiably criticize the UDD on that basis if you're supporting Suthep's group.

I can't understand why people get all defensive when people call the reds what they are, then use the but the dems, or but Suthep. 95% of posters on here can see that Suthep has lost the plot, but that doesn't change what the reds really are.

So you really believe the UDD are akin to the KKK? Seriously? And you think this is what they 'really are'? The idea that they're paid propagandists and stooges is wrong too. Motivations are mixed. Some are more idealistic, some are more mercenary. The grassroots autonomous red shirt networks are simply not detailed by the mainly anti-red English language Thai press. Just because something starts with the impetus coming from the top doesn't mean it remains that way. There is also strong pressure from below now. Just like Suthep's group, really - except Suthep's group's ideals include disenfranchisement in order to achieve a 'clean' government, something which I find neither just nor practical.

If you want to go on thinking things are as simple as you say they are. Go ahead. But it's not true. And it's a cop out.

[Nibbles48]

The reds now are as the commies in the cold war: flexible as a concrete stake. Hope I'm mistaken

Huh, the reds accept an election, Suthep says he's unwilling to negotiate about the 'People's Council', it must be put in place before he'll stand down. Yet you're calling the red shirts inflexible?

Elections means more of the same. Suthep's completely lost it. He's living in his own little world. That's a whole different league.

Can I ask why you seem so dead against reform in Thailand?

Do you prefer the corruption and the risk that PTP and the Shins pose to the entire country?

[Sunderland]

The UDD, and indeed Suthep's mob, would be taken more seriously if they ran their own political parties independently from the Dems and the T.C.P. (Thaksin Corruption Party). If they don't have the balls to go down that road and win the hearts and minds of the people based on policies of true reform, then neither ought to be taken seriously by the populace.

[JoeThePoster]

Red-shirts view on reform sought

Give them 2 hours in a closed room with Suthep, and they'll completely reform him.

[FangFerang]

Both sides have valid points, and both refuse to even acknowledge the other. In hindsight, the US government shutdown looked like a precursor to this deadlocked deadend.

I suggest they follow the US lead and use voting machines that cannot be audited and are easily hacked, or just do what Florida did and hide select ballot boxes.

The Puppet Show is interesting here. Oh Jim Henson, we need you now!

Edited December 14, 2013 by FangFerang

[MaxLee]

Such a meeting is just another opportunity for a coffee break, watching porns on IPADS and leave as if nothing ever happened

[Nacho]

The UDD is no more representative of the rural Thai population the the KKK. They are an unelected, undemocratic collection of Thaksin's paid stooges and propagandists, and any "reforms" that they ever suggested were changes to benefit the man with the money.

Absurd post and I realize you say it to get a reaction rather than to make a serious contribution to the debate, but if the UDD are unelected, Suthep's group are... what? Not only are they themselves unelected, they're also proposing that the elected government step down in order to be replaced by a selected council. So I hardly think you can justifiably criticize the UDD on that basis if you're supporting Suthep's group.

I can't understand why people get all defensive when people call the reds what they are, then use the but the dems, or but Suthep. 95% of posters on here can see that Suthep has lost the plot, but that doesn't change what the reds really are.

So you really believe the UDD are akin to the KKK? Seriously? And you think this is what they 'really are'? The idea that they're paid propagandists and stooges is wrong too. Motivations are mixed. Some are more idealistic, some are more mercenary. The grassroots autonomous red shirt networks are simply not detailed by the mainly anti-red English language Thai press. Just because something starts with the impetus coming from the top doesn't mean it remains that way. There is also strong pressure from below now. Just like Suthep's group, really - except Suthep's group's ideals include disenfranchisement in order to achieve a 'clean' government, something which I find neither just nor practical.

If you want to go on thinking things are as simple as you say they are. Go ahead. But it's not true. And it's a cop out.

No one would deny that the reds at the bottom of the barrel have legitimate grievances just as the current protesters as well as people who are in the middle of this fight. Unfortunately who do you think would be there as the voice of the thousands of reds throughout the country? It will be Thaksin's paid stooges who are more interested in themselves than of the actual movement. They absolutely manipulate for their own interests. And are no better than Suthep.

The system is broken almost all Thais can see this. They want change and many choose the side they see as the lesser of two evils.

This division definitely won't end with an election. It's highly unlikely to end with the peoples council reforms, not to mention the danger of making matters much worse.

[JRSoul]

The UDD is no more representative of the rural Thai population the the KKK. They are an unelected, undemocratic collection of Thaksin's paid stooges and propagandists, and any "reforms" that they ever suggested were changes to benefit the man with the money.

Absurd post and I realize you say it to get a reaction rather than to make a serious contribution to the debate, but if the UDD are unelected, Suthep's group are... what? Not only are they themselves unelected, they're also proposing that the elected government step down in order to be replaced by a selected council. So I hardly think you can justifiably criticize the UDD on that basis if you're supporting Suthep's group.

I can't understand why people get all defensive when people call the reds what they are, then use the but the dems, or but Suthep. 95% of posters on here can see that Suthep has lost the plot, but that doesn't change what the reds really are.

So you really believe the UDD are akin to the KKK? Seriously? And you think this is what they 'really are'? The idea that they're paid propagandists and stooges is wrong too. Motivations are mixed. Some are more idealistic, some are more mercenary. The grassroots autonomous red shirt networks are simply not detailed by the mainly anti-red English language Thai press. Just because something starts with the impetus coming from the top doesn't mean it remains that way. There is also strong pressure from below now. Just like Suthep's group, really - except Suthep's group's ideals include disenfranchisement in order to achieve a 'clean' government, something which I find neither just nor practical.

If you want to go on thinking things are as simple as you say they are. Go ahead. But it's not true. And it's a cop out.

I didn't suggest that the UDD were akin to the KKK, I said they were no more representative of the Thai people. UDD was set up to promulgate untruths to the northern people, that is why they came to BKK to protest the coup 4 years and 3 PMs too late. Most of those doing so were paid with financial benefits and PTP party list positions, and remain paid minions of a criminal intent on either robbing blind or destroying this country, if not both.

They stirred hatred and incited violence. Nothing I have heard from them is to benefit the nation, only Thaksin. Where are the calls for better education or reduced corruption? Have they made one criticism of the rice scam, or defended it as good policy?

And the best you offer to those criticisms is "what about Suthep?" How about we stick to the topic?

[jaidam]

The red shirt dream of a one party state with Thaksin as "el Jefe" are disappearing faster than your pocket contents at a jazz manouche festival. They need to start thinking of a more realistic political system, inclusive of all voters voices, and incorporating justice and rule of law for all, not as at present where it seems that if your surname starts with the letter S, you are beyond the law. Any fair and sensible proposals will certainly be agreed upon by Khun Suthep, who has done a sterling job as the nation's watchdog over the last few weeks, winning hearts and minds from most sectors of the population.

[lovetotravel]

Both sides have valid points, and both refuse to even acknowledge the other. In hindsight, the US government shutdown looked like a precursor to this deadlocked deadend.

I suggest they follow the US lead and use voting machines that cannot be audited and are easily hacked, or just do what Florida did and hide select ballot boxes.

The Puppet Show is interesting here. Oh Jim Henson, we need you now!

It's not just the voting that's the problem. It's the corruption and total disregard for existing laws that the current protesters are upset about. Like ramming through bills and pushing mega projects that are not transparent nor well thought out.

[Baerboxer]

The UDD is no more representative of the rural Thai population the the KKK. They are an unelected, undemocratic collection of Thaksin's paid stooges and propagandists, and any "reforms" that they ever suggested were changes to benefit the man with the money.

Absurd post and I realize you say it to get a reaction rather than to make a serious contribution to the debate, but if the UDD are unelected, Suthep's group are... what? Not only are they themselves unelected, they're also proposing that the elected government step down in order to be replaced by a selected council. So I hardly think you can justifiably criticize the UDD on that basis if you're supporting Suthep's group.

If JRS's post is absurd, then you've eclipsed it. This is a thread about the red shirts, and he makes his point that they are not a democratically elected group that represents the views of the rural Thai population. He posits they are a paid group hired to push Thaksin's agenda via bribery coercion and intimidation. Based on part behavior and easily researched evidence, that is a reasonable suggestion.

You turn this around to a rant against Suthep. This post is not about him or his current ludicrous and now damaging actions since he hijacked a legitimate protest by the people against a corrupt and self serving regime, that also happens to be financed by the same person who finances the red shirts.

The UDD cannot be defended by simply diverting or changing the discussion to Suthep. In the same way Suthep's group cannot defend some of their current actions by saying the UDD did it first.

[tomacht8]

View on reform sought?

Reform to appoint exactly the same 312 members as before?

Sounds it is not a party, but more a chain of command receivers.

"One thinks, and all other do"

Sounds for me pretty stupid, if only one person thinks.

Within the "party":
No new thoughts?
No new faces?
No new ideas?
No intellectual, critical, self-reflective, debate?
No full party Assembly with elections and votes on party goals?

Where are the reform ideas please?

Edited December 14, 2013 by tomacht8

[Emptyset]

The UDD is no more representative of the rural Thai population the the KKK. They are an unelected, undemocratic collection of Thaksin's paid stooges and propagandists, and any "reforms" that they ever suggested were changes to benefit the man with the money.

Absurd post and I realize you say it to get a reaction rather than to make a serious contribution to the debate, but if the UDD are unelected, Suthep's group are... what? Not only are they themselves unelected, they're also proposing that the elected government step down in order to be replaced by a selected council. So I hardly think you can justifiably criticize the UDD on that basis if you're supporting Suthep's group.

If JRS's post is absurd, then you've eclipsed it. This is a thread about the red shirts, and he makes his point that they are not a democratically elected group that represents the views of the rural Thai population. He posits they are a paid group hired to push Thaksin's agenda via bribery coercion and intimidation. Based on part behavior and easily researched evidence, that is a reasonable suggestion.

You turn this around to a rant against Suthep. This post is not about him or his current ludicrous and now damaging actions since he hijacked a legitimate protest by the people against a corrupt and self serving regime, that also happens to be financed by the same person who finances the red shirts.

The UDD cannot be defended by simply diverting or changing the discussion to Suthep. In the same way Suthep's group cannot defend some of their current actions by saying the UDD did it first.

Not defending them by resorting to 'whataboutery' regards Suthep. I simply think it's hypocritical to criticize the red shirts for being unelected if you support Suthep's group. But the rest of what JRS said is nothing else other than unsubstantiated opinion which I entirely disagree with. Anyone who'd met any red shirts would realize they're not a 'paid group hired to push Thaksin's agenda' and that such assertions are entirely ridiculous and do nothing but discredit the one who posts it. There are plenty of valid criticisms one can make without resorting to complete fantasy or baseless attacks on the other side.

Edited December 14, 2013 by Emptyset

[JRSoul]

Not defending them by resorting to 'whataboutery' regards Suthep. I simply think it's hypocritical to criticize the red shirts for being unelected if you support Suthep's group. But the rest of what JRS said is nothing else other than unsubstantiated opinion which I entirely disagree with. Anyone who'd met any red shirts would realize they're not a 'paid group hired to push Thaksin's agenda' and that such assertions are entirely ridiculous and do nothing but discredit the one who posts it. There are plenty of valid criticisms one can make without resorting to complete fantasy or baseless attacks on the other side.

Do you have reading/comprehension problems? Again, I never said the red shirts were 'paid group hired to push Thaksin's agenda'. What I said was that UDD were, and were unrepresentative of the Thai people. And I have made no attempt to support Suthep.

Members of UDD that dared to criticize the amnesty bill, but not game enough to vote against it, were rapidly pulled back into the UDD/Thaksin line. How is that representative of base red shirt sentiment?

You still have yet to comment on ANY of my earlier opinions of UDD, other than to dismiss them as baseless without supporting evidence.

[EricBerg]

The reds now are as the commies in the cold war: flexible as a concrete stake. Hope I'm mistaken

Huh, the reds accept an election, Suthep says he's unwilling to negotiate about the 'People's Council', it must be put in place before he'll stand down. Yet you're calling the red shirts inflexible?

Elections means more of the same. Suthep's completely lost it. He's living in his own little world. That's a whole different league.

Can I ask why you seem so dead against reform in Thailand?

Do you prefer the corruption and the risk that PTP and the Shins pose to the entire country?

You're missing my point. There's a stalemate now. Good new thing is that the army apparently will not go for another coup. There still is a long way to go to democracy where corruption can be fought more easily. In contrary to what most here seem to think it's my opinion that there are no fast solutions to complex problems as the Thai political situation. Have a look at Italy f.i. Suthep needs to be replaced first of all, he's cracking up completely. Then see what else can be done. So far I see no reason why the shinaclan could not rob Thailand mor the coming years.

[Ulic]

The reds now are as the commies in the cold war: flexible as a concrete stake. Hope I'm mistaken

The Reds may be the the commies in the cold war, but with one important difference, they believe in democracy and elections.

The Yellows are very much aligned with Fascism, no democracy and the country run by 1 person and a council

of advisers. Personally I would rather have a democracy and work to getting rid of corruption which is pervasive in

both parties.

[Siripon]

I've never heard the red leaders proposals for reform.

Now's the time boys, call a meeting urgently, you've only got a few hours to think up some ideas.

So calling for a return to the 1997 charter, a fully elected senate, reformed judiciary aren't proposals for reform? Or are the only reforms you're willing to accept undemocratic reforms? Not to say the reforms the reds wanted to see aren't as self serving as the ones Suthep and the elite want, but they are reforms nevertheless.

In my view, your first 2 points are regressive moves- the 1997 charter gave too much power to the politicians which was exploited by Thaksin.

A wholly elected Senate would result in the same- relatives of politicians would not check and balance their husband/wife/sister/mother etc in the Senate -too much power to politicians

Reform of the judiciary, ie. limiting its powers to check corrupt politicians, is possibly another move to expand politicians' influence.

I meant reforms to benefit society, not politicians.

Education

The police force

Decentralization

Corruption

Do you know of any red shirt policies in these important fields?

I've never heard any.

[tomacht8]

I've never heard the red leaders proposals for reform.

Now's the time boys, call a meeting urgently, you've only got a few hours to think up some ideas.

So calling for a return to the 1997 charter, a fully elected senate, reformed judiciary aren't proposals for reform? Or are the only reforms you're willing to accept undemocratic reforms? Not to say the reforms the reds wanted to see aren't as self serving as the ones Suthep and the elite want, but they are reforms nevertheless.

In my view, your first 2 points are regressive moves- the 1997 charter gave too much power to the politicians which was exploited by Thaksin.

A wholly elected Senate would result in the same- relatives of politicians would not check and balance their husband/wife/sister/mother etc in the Senate -too much power to politicians

Reform of the judiciary, ie. limiting its powers to check corrupt politicians, is possibly another move to expand politicians' influence.

I meant reforms to benefit society, not politicians.

Education

The police force

Decentralization

Corruption

Do you know of any red shirt policies in these important fields?

I've never heard any.

I just still wounder,

when was there last full party assembly with elections and votes on party goals?

How many registered party members they have currently?

Where is the base?