US, Chinese warships in near collision

[Publicus]

Both Beijing and Washington are now trying to downplay the significance of the incident, yet neither has effectively proposed they sit down and talk about these dangerous games that only continue to become more dangerous each time one occurs.

Beijing however is not making the situation any better and in fact aggravates it.

The PLA media mouthpiece, the Global Times, for instance directly challenges freedom of navigation on the high seas, i.e. in international waters. Says the Global Times, “For a long period of time, the term ‘freedom of navigation’ has become an excuse for the U.S. military to harass the legal movements of our naval vessels near the China coast.”

The PLA is the leading advocate in Beijing of the CCP's wild claim to territorial sovereignty over almost all of the South China Sea, when the SCS always has been and continues to be international waters. The increasing recklessness of Beijing in the SCS has now manifested in its provocative and risky naval incident.

The United States continues to stand firm that the international maritime global commons be respected and remain intact - in other words, a government claiming sovereignty over an entire sea that is a part of the global maritime commons must be rejected even if forcefully.

Shadowing an adversary's sea and air craft is nothing new, as during the (first) Cold War the US and the Soviet Union did it all the time. However, during the Cold War Washington and Moscow developed an understanding that no incident occurring from one another's shadowing would develop into open hostilities or open warfare.

Beijing and Washington haven't any such common or mutual understanding. The risks in these situations only increases when the initiator of both wild claims of sovereignty over international waters and reckless incidents that stem from the dangerous claims has nothing to discuss.

[Publicus]

Mai pen rai, the US ship was a long way from the United States.

If the Chinese missile cruiser would come near US waters even if they are in International waters, the US would send everything they have, I am sure the Chinese media would also say the same kind of propaganda that the Chinese ship worked very hard to avoid a collision.

Come on Snowden release some more news. Haven't heard for a long time by the US that the Chinese are hacking their systems.

You're thinking is SO muddled on this, and you have NO idea what you're jabbering about! COWPENS was in international, not Chinese territorial, waters although China is currently in the extremely belligerant position of claiming practically the entire South and East China Seas AS its territorial waters. WHEN a Chinese warship enters US territorial waters and a US warship nearly collides with it, we can talk about who was where they were supposed to be and who wasn't. In the meantime you obviously have NO idea what the US response would be to a Chinese ship "near" but not in US territorial waters. Probably nothing beyond satellite surveillance. The idea of some mass scramble is as ludicrous as it is pinheaded.

There are Chinese ships in and out of US ports daily. They aren't military ships, but they could be Trojan Horses. It's amazing the amount of container ships that dock in US harbors daily.

The US isn't one bit afraid of China's navy or air force. It is just annoyed by the saber rattling in Asia.

The problem is they view Bama as weak or without sufficient backing or support to do anything. They are simply exploiting this . . . Really has a dangerous potential down the line. Walmart stands to suffer more than anyone if we cut China off as they sell most of that cheap crap no one with any money or sense would buy so cut China off, let their currency appreciate and let their economy sink. Their banks are bunk with horrible balance sheets. Besides China, does anyone really care about those crazy, whacky, silly Walmart shoppers.

The aggressive and belligerent attitudes and behaviors of the CCP haven't anything to do with who is president, whether it was Clinton staring Beijing down during the Taiwan Strait missile shellings of 1996, or Bush in the aircraft incident of 2001, or anything one might want to try to pin on Prez Obama who is the president executing a US new pivot to the Pacific/Asia.

The cold hard fact is that the CCP has convinced itself and has indoctrinated all of the PRC to believe the United States is an empire of history, that as with every empire of history there is a point of decline, and that the United States has passed the point at which empires begin to decline.

By these fallacies and syllogisms the CCP believes it is on the ascendency, and has now reached the point that it can start to push the United States around, try to embarrass us, work to separate our treaty allies from us and our purported weaknesses as we descend into the abyss of history. This is the harsh reality of the CCP mindset in miniature in Beijing.

Which means Beijing is going to push the United States on all fronts, and continue to escalate in the belief we won't ever dare to pull the trigger, that we can't ever bring ourselves to pull the trigger against the CCP-PRC, that we are in fact cowards because we are in inevitable and irreversible decline.

So the time is coming when the CCP-PRC and the Boyz in Beijing are going to get severely stung. It's the only thing dictators and their sheeple can take notice of, respect, understand.

It has nothing to do with which person is president at any given moment or time. The dictators in Beijing believe the United States has its hands tied by their certainty the United States is in economic decline as an empire of history. The Chinese see only empires, that empires rise and fall like the winter wheat and that the United States has developed its technological warfare capabilities because we are cowards who will not fight directly.

To the CCP-PRC democracy, human rights, rule of law, parliamentary systems and the like are recent, fashionable, passing blips in time along the 5000 year old history of the Middle Kingdom which has suffered through some hard times the past 200 years because of these temporary forces but now is back on the ascendancy to reclaim its rightful place of dictatorship and dominance, i.e., empire.

You gotta find out and learn how these people think, what they think, and why they think it to be so.

[boomerangutang]

I did some research on the book '1421', written by Gavin Menzies. My assumptions, that the claims were bogus, were borne out. The book claims that Chinese mariners circumnavigated the world in giant ships, and discovered and mapped nearly every land mass worldwide - before the Europeans. Not surprisingly the Chinese navigator Zheng He has become a mega hero in China, since that book came out a few years ago. added info

[Genericnic]

I did some research on the book '1421', written by Gavin Menzies. My assumptions, that the claims were bogus, were borne out. The book claims that Chinese mariners circumnavigated the world in giant ships, and discovered and mapped nearly every land mass worldwide - before the Europeans. Not surprisingly the Chinese navigator Zheng He has become a mega hero in China, since that book came out a few years ago. added info

The Chinese government is essentially a liar as it always has been. Ask them about the mass famine under Mao that starved millions of Chinese to death. Ask them about the cultural genocide they are imposing on the Tibetans now. They will lie and dissemble and never come close to the truth. Why should anyone believe anything that comes out of Beijing?

David

[Scott]

A post with messed up quotes has been deleted.

[jpinx]

Most of the west coast of both North and South America was populated by chinese incomers who conquered the various coastal tribes. The chinese were very happy with all the gold and other natural resources but went home after some major tsunami demolished most of what they had established and in south america the Incas took over mostly. Now the chinese have re-conquered the wealthy parts of what they lost in a fiscal way.

Playing with boats in their local pond is just a diversion

P:S: 500yards apart is a long way if they are running parallel courses. Refuelling at sea requires much closer proximity.

[NeverSure]

-snip-

The cold hard fact is that the CCP has convinced itself and has indoctrinated all of the PRC to believe the United States is an empire of history, that as with every empire of history there is a point of decline, and that the United States has passed the point at which empires begin to decline.

By these fallacies and syllogisms the CCP believes it is on the ascendency, and has now reached the point that it can start to push the United States around, try to embarrass us, work to separate our treaty allies from us and our purported weaknesses as we descend into the abyss of history. This is the harsh reality of the CCP mindset in miniature in Beijing.

Which means Beijing is going to push the United States on all fronts, and continue to escalate in the belief we won't ever dare to pull the trigger, that we can't ever bring ourselves to pull the trigger against the CCP-PRC, that we are in fact cowards because we are in inevitable and irreversible decline.

So the time is coming when the CCP-PRC and the Boyz in Beijing are going to get severely stung. It's the only thing dictators and their sheeple can take notice of, respect, understand.

It amazes me how many people seem to think that the US is in decline. The US hasn't even begun to tap its resources. Within just a couple of years it will surpass Saudi Arabia as the world's largest producer of oil. It has more oil reserves than all of the rest of the world combined, and maybe 3 times as much.

The US owns technology. China can't even copy it well. It had to buy the IBM brand of computer to have its own brand of computer and renamed it Lenovo. Still, most of the parts in those machines are US brands including Intel inside. They can't copy the US' stealth airplanes and subs or pinpoint accurate missiles or drones, and by the time they "might" do it, the US will not only have a new generation of them, but probably already has technology to see them. They apparently just put an unmanned rover on the moon, but the US put a man on the moon many decades ago. The US is bored with that.

China manufactures for the US, but they need US people to set up and run the factories or they produce junk. The US technology is running away from needing China with computerized manufacturing which will render cheap labor obsolete.

The US has the world's 3rd largest population, the world's leading economy by double that of China, owns the internet in the sense that if it shut down it would shut down world wide due to the lack of bandwidth and authoritative DNS servers. US corporations are thriving. China's banks are tits up. but the US went through and recovered from a banking crisis. The US audits of banks are transparent and accurate. Who knows about China?

I think China is making all of this noise to keep its people placated in the face of its massive failures. Oh, and China holds the amount of US bonds that it does NOT because it has surplus money, but because it needs to own US dollars to do the volume of international trade that it does. Those bonds are its foreign exchange reserves. It has to get that money from its defunct government owned banks.

China ain't chit.

[hawker9000]

Mai pen rai, the US ship was a long way from the United States.

If the Chinese missile cruiser would come near US waters even if they are in International waters, the US would send everything they have, I am sure the Chinese media would also say the same kind of propaganda that the Chinese ship worked very hard to avoid a collision.g

Come on Snowden release some more news. Haven't heard for a long time by the US that the Chinese are hacking their systems.

You're thinking is SO muddled on this, and you have NO idea what you're jabbering about! COWPENS was in international, not Chinese territorial, waters although China is currently in the extremely belligerant position of claiming practically the entire South and East China Seas AS its territorial waters. WHEN a Chinese warship enters US territorial waters and a US warship nearly collides with it, we can talk about who was where they were supposed to be and who wasn't. In the meantime you obviously have NO idea what the US response would be to a Chinese ship "near" but not in US territorial waters. Probably nothing beyond satellite surveillance. The idea of some mass scramble is as ludicrous as it is pinheaded.

There are Chinese ships in and out of US ports daily. They aren't military ships, but they could be Trojan Horses. It's amazing the amount of container ships that dock in US harbors daily.

The US isn't one bit afraid of China's navy or air force. It is just annoyed by the saber rattling in Asia.

The problem is they view Bama as weak or without sufficient backing or support to do anything. They are simply exploiting this . . . Really has a dangerous potential down the line. Walmart stands to suffer more than anyone if we cut China off as they sell most of that cheap crap no one with any money or sense would buy so cut China off, let their currency appreciate and let their economy sink. Their banks are bunk with horrible balance sheets. Besides China, does anyone really care about those crazy, whacky, silly Walmart shoppers.

The aggressive and belligerent attitudes and behaviors of the CCP haven't anything to do with who is president, whether it was Clinton staring Beijing down during the Taiwan Strait missile shellings of 1996, or Bush in the aircraft incident of 2001, or anything one might want to try to pin on Prez Obama who is the president executing a US new pivot to the Pacific/Asia.

The cold hard fact is that the CCP has convinced itself and has indoctrinated all of the PRC to believe the United States is an empire of history, that as with every empire of history there is a point of decline, and that the United States has passed the point at which empires begin to decline.

By these fallacies and syllogisms the CCP believes it is on the ascendency, and has now reached the point that it can start to push the United States around, try to embarrass us, work to separate our treaty allies from us and our purported weaknesses as we descend into the abyss of history. This is the harsh reality of the CCP mindset in miniature in Beijing.

Which means Beijing is going to push the United States on all fronts, and continue to escalate in the belief we won't ever dare to pull the trigger, that we can't ever bring ourselves to pull the trigger against the CCP-PRC, that we are in fact cowards because we are in inevitable and irreversible decline.

So the time is coming when the CCP-PRC and the Boyz in Beijing are going to get severely stung. It's the only thing dictators and their sheeple can take notice of, respect, understand.

It has nothing to do with which person is president at any given moment or time. The dictators in Beijing believe the United States has its hands tied by their certainty the United States is in economic decline as an empire of history. The Chinese see only empires, that empires rise and fall like the winter wheat and that the United States has developed its technological warfare capabilities because we are cowards who will not fight directly.

To the CCP-PRC democracy, human rights, rule of law, parliamentary systems and the like are recent, fashionable, passing blips in time along the 5000 year old history of the Middle Kingdom which has suffered through some hard times the past 200 years because of these temporary forces but now is back on the ascendancy to reclaim its rightful place of dictatorship and dominance, i.e., empire.

You gotta find out and learn how these people think, what they think, and why they think it to be so.

You couldn't possibly BE more wrong. A weak and ineffectual US president utterly lacking credibility has everything to do with a country wanting desperately to expand its gobal influence, like China, embarking on reckless & risky adventures like this. To suggest otherwise is just the usual Obama-can-do-no-wrong drivel. We hear the same thing after every scandal, every lie, every foreign snub, and all other manner of failure & shortcoming. You better believe the Chinese are taking advantage of this guy's many weaknesses and most of all his well-deserved lack of credibility. If Obama had met with the Chinese instead of Kerry, Hawaii would be Chinese territory by now...

[NeverSure]

I still believe that China's belligerence in SE Asia is designed to impress its own people, and remove attention from its failed economic and social policies.

Bank of America warns against coming China debt storm

FBN's Jo Ling Kent on Bank of America advising clients to take out default insurance against China debt.

FBN Video

[Publicus]

You couldn't possibly BE more wrong. A weak and ineffectual US president utterly lacking credibility has everything to do with a country wanting desperately to expand its gobal influence, like China, embarking on reckless & risky adventures like this. To suggest otherwise is just the usual Obama-can-do-no-wrong drivel. We hear the same thing after every scandal, every lie, every foreign snub, and all other manner of failure & shortcoming. You better believe the Chinese are taking advantage of this guy's many weaknesses and most of all his well-deserved lack of credibility. If Obama had met with the Chinese instead of Kerry, Hawaii would be Chinese territory by now...

The personal politics of personality or partisan politics haven't any place in discussion of national security.

I stated the nature of the CCP-PRC's jaded view that the United States is in decline inevitably and irreversibly, that therefore the United States are cowards who will never stand up to the CCP-PRC and its aggressions, belligerence, bellicosity.

The CCP-PRC's absolutist and dogmatic ideological view does not depend on any variable whatsoever, and certainly not on the occupant of the White House at any given time past, present, future.

LBJ was wrong to have flung the US into the Vietnamese civil war. Geo W Bush was wrong to invade Iraq. Both lied about what they were doing and why. I could talk about many other presidents in these respects rather than focus on only those of one political party.

Look for the forest here, not the trees.

[Bpuumike]

Mai pen rai, the US ship was a long way from the United States.

If the Chinese missile cruiser would come near US waters even if they are in International waters, the US would send everything they have, I am sure the Chinese media would also say the same kind of propaganda that the Chinese ship worked very hard to avoid a collision.

Come on Snowden release some more news. Haven't heard for a long time by the US that the Chinese are hacking their systems.

You're thinking is SO muddled on this, and you have NO idea what you're jabbering about! COWPENS was in international, not Chinese territorial, waters although China is currently in the extremely belligerant position of claiming practically the entire South and East China Seas AS its territorial waters. WHEN a Chinese warship enters US territorial waters and a US warship nearly collides with it, we can talk about who was where they were supposed to be and who wasn't. In the meantime you obviously have NO idea what the US response would be to a Chinese ship "near" but not in US territorial waters. Probably nothing beyond satellite surveillance. The idea of some mass scramble is as ludicrous as it is pinheaded.

Was not the stance of JFK over Cuba. Outside US territory but too close to home for comfort.

[Bpuumike]

-snip-

The cold hard fact is that the CCP has convinced itself and has indoctrinated all of the PRC to believe the United States is an empire of history, that as with every empire of history there is a point of decline, and that the United States has passed the point at which empires begin to decline.

By these fallacies and syllogisms the CCP believes it is on the ascendency, and has now reached the point that it can start to push the United States around, try to embarrass us, work to separate our treaty allies from us and our purported weaknesses as we descend into the abyss of history. This is the harsh reality of the CCP mindset in miniature in Beijing.

Which means Beijing is going to push the United States on all fronts, and continue to escalate in the belief we won't ever dare to pull the trigger, that we can't ever bring ourselves to pull the trigger against the CCP-PRC, that we are in fact cowards because we are in inevitable and irreversible decline.

So the time is coming when the CCP-PRC and the Boyz in Beijing are going to get severely stung. It's the only thing dictators and their sheeple can take notice of, respect, understand.

It amazes me how many people seem to think that the US is in decline. The US hasn't even begun to tap its resources. Within just a couple of years it will surpass Saudi Arabia as the world's largest producer of oil. It has more oil reserves than all of the rest of the world combined, and maybe 3 times as much.

The US owns technology. China can't even copy it well. It had to buy the IBM brand of computer to have its own brand of computer and renamed it Lenovo. Still, most of the parts in those machines are US brands including Intel inside. They can't copy the US' stealth airplanes and subs or pinpoint accurate missiles or drones, and by the time they "might" do it, the US will not only have a new generation of them, but probably already has technology to see them. They apparently just put an unmanned rover on the moon, but the US put a man on the moon many decades ago. The US is bored with that.

China manufactures for the US, but they need US people to set up and run the factories or they produce junk. The US technology is running away from needing China with computerized manufacturing which will render cheap labor obsolete.

The US has the world's 3rd largest population, the world's leading economy by double that of China, owns the internet in the sense that if it shut down it would shut down world wide due to the lack of bandwidth and authoritative DNS servers. US corporations are thriving. China's banks are tits up. but the US went through and recovered from a banking crisis. The US audits of banks are transparent and accurate. Who knows about China?

I think China is making all of this noise to keep its people placated in the face of its massive failures. Oh, and China holds the amount of US bonds that it does NOT because it has surplus money, but because it needs to own US dollars to do the volume of international trade that it does. Those bonds are its foreign exchange reserves. It has to get that money from its defunct government owned banks.

China ain't chit.

I don't like to enter arguments on the forum but I suggest you start re-thinking.

[Publicus]

Mai pen rai, the US ship was a long way from the United States.

If the Chinese missile cruiser would come near US waters even if they are in International waters, the US would send everything they have, I am sure the Chinese media would also say the same kind of propaganda that the Chinese ship worked very hard to avoid a collision.

Come on Snowden release some more news. Haven't heard for a long time by the US that the Chinese are hacking their systems.

You're thinking is SO muddled on this, and you have NO idea what you're jabbering about! COWPENS was in international, not Chinese territorial, waters although China is currently in the extremely belligerant position of claiming practically the entire South and East China Seas AS its territorial waters. WHEN a Chinese warship enters US territorial waters and a US warship nearly collides with it, we can talk about who was where they were supposed to be and who wasn't. In the meantime you obviously have NO idea what the US response would be to a Chinese ship "near" but not in US territorial waters. Probably nothing beyond satellite surveillance. The idea of some mass scramble is as ludicrous as it is pinheaded.

Was not the stance of JFK over Cuba. Outside US territory but too close to home for comfort.

When we're speaking of the United States and the CCP-PRC we're not talking about apples and apples.

We're talking about apples and arsenic.

[F430murci]

I still believe that China's belligerence in SE Asia is designed to impress its own people, and remove attention from its failed economic and social policies.

Bank of America warns against coming China debt storm

FBN's Jo Ling Kent on Bank of America advising clients to take out default insurance against China debt.

FBN Video

BofA Merrill Lynch is one of my clients. Been hearing this for a while even tough their affiliated Blacrock global China fund and the emerging markets China fund are two decent sized products they offer. Both took hard nose dives in July and appear to be back on their way down. China has a bigger bubble than perhaps our 2008 mortgage backed security bubble that China has not and perhaps cannot deal with. Everything they do and report us so manipulated it is difficult to get the truth, but those in the know seem to be running for cover or buying a shit load of put options to cover long positions that cannot be liquidated at the moment.

[boomerangutang]

It's common for adversaries to project their hopes of perceived weaknesses on to leaders of the other side. Kruschev did it with the young JFK during the cold war. Kruschev was wrong, and was forced to withdraw from Cuba with his tail between his legs. Obama is not weak, unless a person or politburo wants to project that image upon him. He's not weak, mentally or materially, as head of the most powerful armed services in world history. There's also the myth, among the US's adversaries, that Americans can talk tough, but are pansies if there's a chance of things getting bloody. That's also garbage, as proven by the recent wars where Americans have suffered casualties. And more often than not, so-called US allies have stood on the sidelines pontificating and wringing their hands. Additionally, though China doesn't get involved with any dirty business worldwide (except its occupation of Tibet), and feigns from helping any country humanitarily, it's often the first on the scene when the dust clears - gladhanding with smiles and contracts for resources. It's happening now in Sudan and Afghanistan and other places where China stood aside while the US and allies did the dirty work.

Most of the west coast of both North and South America was populated by chinese incomers who conquered the various coastal tribes. The chinese were very happy with all the gold and other natural resources but went home after some major tsunami demolished most of what they had established and in south america the Incas took over mostly. Now the chinese have re-conquered the wealthy parts of what they lost in a fiscal way.

Chinese did not conquer any parts of the western regions of north or south America. Perhaps you're alluding to approx 34,000 years ago when tribes started crossing the then-land-connected strait between what is now Siberia and Alaska. If you want to call those travelers 'Chinese' that's up to you. More correctly, they were Siberians more closely related to Innuit. I've heard talk of the Ainu from Hokkaido being part of those series of migrations, but the post above is the 1st I've heard of Chinese in that context.

[craigt3365]

A few posts have been removed from view. Please stay on topic.

[jpinx]

It's common for adversaries to project their hopes of perceived weaknesses on to leaders of the other side. Kruschev did it with the young JFK during the cold war. Kruschev was wrong, and was forced to withdraw from Cuba with his tail between his legs. Obama is not weak, unless a person or politburo wants to project that image upon him. He's not weak, mentally or materially, as head of the most powerful armed services in world history. There's also the myth, among the US's adversaries, that Americans can talk tough, but are pansies if there's a chance of things getting bloody. That's also garbage, as proven by the recent wars where Americans have suffered casualties. And more often than not, so-called US allies have stood on the sidelines pontificating and wringing their hands. Additionally, though China doesn't get involved with any dirty business worldwide (except its occupation of Tibet), and feigns from helping any country humanitarily, it's often the first on the scene when the dust clears - gladhanding with smiles and contracts for resources. It's happening now in Sudan and Afghanistan and other places where China stood aside while the US and allies did the dirty work.

Most of the west coast of both North and South America was populated by chinese incomers who conquered the various coastal tribes. The chinese were very happy with all the gold and other natural resources but went home after some major tsunami demolished most of what they had established and in south america the Incas took over mostly. Now the chinese have re-conquered the wealthy parts of what they lost in a fiscal way.

Chinese did not conquer any parts of the western regions of north or south America. Perhaps you're alluding to approx 34,000 years ago when tribes started crossing the then-land-connected strait between what is now Siberia and Alaska. If you want to call those travelers 'Chinese' that's up to you. More correctly, they were Siberians more closely related to Innuit. I've heard talk of the Ainu from Hokkaido being part of those series of migrations, but the post above is the 1st I've heard of Chinese in that context.

"Conquered" is perhaps too strong a word, but "took over" is what they did. If you know anything about Peru you will understand this.

1,442 AD -- Mahuika tsunami wrecked Chinese empire and allowed Inca invasion of coastal plains

http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/thread-612382-1-1.html

http://www.molossia.org/chinese.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahuika_crater

ref -- 11 Gavin Masters "1434" and "1421" published by Harper collins. (William Morrow)

I looked at the 3 links. The 1st is a Chinese blog within which a blogger sings praises of Menzie's claims of Chinese settling N. America's west coast many hundreds of years ago. It's understandable that the Chinese would love Menzie's book (1421) because it burnishes an image of China exploring, mapping (and establishing settlements) worldwide during the early 15th century. The 3rd link is odd. I can't figure the connection. The 2nd link is interesting. Though I'm from that part of California where the ancient Chinese are purported to have explored, I honestly haven't heard the claims prior, nor heard of the supposed proofs offered in the write-up. Perhaps I'm out of the loop, but I have studied the native tribes in that region (Maidu, Modoc, etc), and there was never any mention of intruders from afar. If the Chinese want to accept a revisionist history, it's easy to do. It won't be the first time. They do it successfully with Tibet.

It's a fascinating topic because so little is known about the americas before the european colonisation, but it's reasonably obvious from historical fragments and inferences, as well as continuing re-discoveries in places like Peru and California, that there was extensive trade with China. I know from first hand experience that there is noticeable chinese cultural influence in Peru which pre-dates the incas. China was, and still is, clever enough to now that armies only conquer for a short time - real conquests are done by trade. Western nations are still struggling with this concept.

The reference link to the NZ tsunami gives the tsunami source and approximate date. It was huge and pretty much wiped out many coastal communities in Peru. There is probably evidence of it's effects in other parts of the west coast of the americas, but no-one has been looking or reporting much yet. Interestingly there is a very real possibility of a prior mega-tsunami around the year 1,000 AD.

There is so much we do not know about the worlds history and how humanity fits in. Indeed most discoveries are poo-poo-ed by the establishment until evidence is irrefutable - few people like to take a leap of faith based on some clues

Meantime - China will continue to exercise US minds in their attempts to re-colonise the Philippines, etc, on the basis that they were there first :tongue-in-cheek:

Edit --

P.S. Watch what's happening here in Thailand with Chinese economic influence becoming more obvious culturally and commercially.

[Publicus]

There's a report that the CCP-PRC Jade Rabbit lunar surface probe has discovered a Ming Dynasty map showing that China owns the moon.

I'm searching for the link to give you.

[boomerangutang]

I dug a little deeper on one of the links (which purports to prove Chinese traveled around California pre-Spanish times) and the one with 'Molossia' in the title is particularly poignant. I knew, from being a stamp collector since diaper age, that there never was a country named Molossia. It so happens, the name is used by a private land-owner in Nevada (whose web site has the name), who tongue-in-cheek has declared his house a separate country. You tell me how reliable archaelogical data can be (?) - coming from someone like that.

When in my 30's, I met the guy who wrote the book about aliens landing all over the world. He sold a lot of books. One of his proofs was a photo of a spark plug unearthed at an Inca site (I jest not). When I met him in Mexico, there were pretty girls all around (groupies) who were lapping up his alien tales with glee. Once when he and I were walking alone, I told him all the garbage in his books was just that; 'garbage.' Interestingly, he didn't get mad at me for revealing his ruse, but he got very concerned that I might tell the groupies, and spoil his rock star status at the beach resort.

[boomerangutang]

You wanna write a book (or make a video) which sells many copies and makes a lot of money? Here's what you do: Craft a story which shows Chinese explorers being at the vanguard of great discoveries. Guaranteed to sell a lot in China, the biggest market in the world. Alternatively, write a story of a master race of ancient Chinese who were superior at... Pick one of more of the following:

[A] athletics warrior skills [C] love-making [D] technological breakthroughs [E] Healing Arts [F] Architecture [E] Metaphysics

[Scott]

Further off-topic posts will be deleted. Although rather interesting, this thread has veered far from the original topic.

[Genericnic]

For an interesting perspective on why China thinks they own the world, I suggest you read Henry Kissinger's book On China. While I agree with very little of what Kissinger says, I find his perspective on China and its history very persuasive.

David

[jpinx]

Further off-topic posts will be deleted. Although rather interesting, this thread has veered far from the original topic.

Agreed - but there's no detail of what the 2 ships were doing. Were they side-by-side, parrallel course, or noe-to-tail? The usual hot air coming out as the 2 sides try to gain the P.R. advantage, but scant respect for the truth

[Genericnic]

Further off-topic posts will be deleted. Although rather interesting, this thread has veered far from the original topic.

Agreed - but there's no detail of what the 2 ships were doing. Were they side-by-side, parrallel course, or noe-to-tail? The usual hot air coming out as the 2 sides try to gain the P.R. advantage, but scant respect for the truth

I went back and reread the CNN report of the incident (http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/13/politics/us-china-confrontation/index.html?iref=allsearch) and while it is not totally clear, it appears that the Chinese ship was on course to cross the bow of the Cowpens and that the Cowpens had to do an All Stop (i.e. reverse engines to slow the ship) in order for the Chines ship to pass in front of it.

David

[jpinx]

Further off-topic posts will be deleted. Although rather interesting, this thread has veered far from the original topic.

Agreed - but there's no detail of what the 2 ships were doing. Were they side-by-side, parrallel course, or noe-to-tail? The usual hot air coming out as the 2 sides try to gain the P.R. advantage, but scant respect for the truth

I went back and reread the CNN report of the incident (http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/13/politics/us-china-confrontation/index.html?iref=allsearch) and while it is not totally clear, it appears that the Chinese ship was on course to cross the bow of the Cowpens and that the Cowpens had to do an All Stop (i.e. reverse engines to slow the ship) in order for the Chines ship to pass in front of it.

David

Thanks for the link 500 yards is well outside the distance at which the Cowpens could have altered course to pass behind the Chinese ship. Looks like they were playing chicken and Cowpens lost

[Scott]

A troll post has been removed.

[hawker9000]

Further off-topic posts will be deleted. Although rather interesting, this thread has veered far from the original topic.

Agreed - but there's no detail of what the 2 ships were doing. Were they side-by-side, parrallel course, or noe-to-tail? The usual hot air coming out as the 2 sides try to gain the P.R. advantage, but scant respect for the truth

I went back and reread the CNN report of the incident (http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/13/politics/us-china-confrontation/index.html?iref=allsearch) and while it is not totally clear, it appears that the Chinese ship was on course to cross the bow of the Cowpens and that the Cowpens had to do an All Stop (i.e. reverse engines to slow the ship) in order for the Chines ship to pass in front of it.

David

Thanks for the link 500 yards is well outside the distance at which the Cowpens could have altered course to pass behind the Chinese ship. Looks like they were playing chicken and Cowpens lost

No, almost certainly not. The article makes it fairly clear that Cowpens was simply maintaining a fixed position on Lianong (the Chinese carrier), and thus more than likely maintaining a fixed and predictable course & speed. The Chinese warship "peeled off" from the Lianong group in order to approach & intercept Cowpens and force it off its course. This maneuvering resulted in the incident. Cowpens had right-of-way, and this was a provocation in international waters. But a game of chicken? No way. Not unless you think US warships should come to a dead stop at the mere sighting of Chinese warships.

[Publicus]

The Cowpens did have the right of way but a missile cruiser is more difficult to maneuver than is the much smaller, faster and lower in the water tank landing craft.

It's just not encouraging however that the PLA Navy (PLAN) collects its officers from the Army, as does the PLA Air Force, not from formal service academies - incredulously, the CCP-PRC does not have either a bone fide naval or air force academy. This weakness of institutional competency makes the reckless naval stunt against the Cowpens an especially risky and dangerous action.

The Cowpens incident is only the most recent example of Chinese naval aggressiveness toward U.S. ships.

In June this year the U.S. intelligence gathering ship, USNS Impeccable was harassed by a CCP-PRC Maritime Surveillance ship of Beijing’s recently militarized Maritime Patrol.

The Impeccable, operating in international waters 100 miles off the CCP-PRC coast in the East China Sea, rejected the CCP-PRC's demand that it had to first obtain permission before sailing in the area. Impeccable thus continued to observe PLAN submarine movements without incident near the Japanese Senkaku Islands which the CCP-PRC bogusly claims to be its own sovereign territory.

Without incident because Impeccable is used to PRC maritime harassment so it is disciplined to such provocations. Impeccable already had been harassed in March 2009 in the South China Sea by five Maritime Force ships that followed it in international waters and had sprayed it with water hoses, failing the attempt to shut down its operations.

So having failed to halt Impeccable's operations, the five CCP-PRC Maritime Force vessels surrounded Impeccable, the two smallest ships closing to within 25 feet spraying from fire hoses, waving Chinese flags and shouting in Chinese for Impeccable to leave the area. Impeccable immediately responded by spraying the two close-in ships with water from fire hoses, the force of which drove the ships away despite their crews stripping down to their underwear. (Talk about losing your shirt! Or getting caught with your pants down .)

After driving the PRC Maritime Force ships away, Impeccable radioed the five ships to request a safe path to navigate. But two larger PRCMF ships stopped directly ahead of the Impeccable and also dropped numerous large panels of wood, forcing Impeccable to an Emergency Stop to avoid otherwise imminent collisions.

Again Impeccable's powerful water cannon cleared the two MF ships and the wood from its path and it continued to sail on. The wild CCP-PRC provocation occurred about 75 miles from Hainan Island which has a new large PLAN base from which and in direct contravention of the UN International Law of the Sea it sends MF ships to establish bases on islands in the EEZs of the Philippines, Vietnam, Brunei, Malaysia.

[jpinx]

quote

The Cowpens did have the right of way but a missile cruiser is more difficult to maneuver than is the much smaller, faster and lower in the water tank landing craft.

/quote

How can you state that with such certainty? Were you there ?

quote

It's just not encouraging however that the PLA Navy (PLAN) collects its officers from the Army, as does the PLA Air Force, not from formal service academies - incredulously, the CCP-PRC does not have either a bone fide naval or air force academy. This weakness of institutional competency makes the reckless naval stunt against the Cowpens an especially risky and dangerous action.

/quote

Don't be too superior - Pride comes before a fall. USA makes it's fair share of mistakes in many ways. For example by putting a known drunken womanizer in charge of nuclear missiles and letting him represent USA in Russia

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-25460660#sa-ns_mchannel=rss&ns_source=PublicRSS20-sa

quote

Again Impeccable's powerful water cannon cleared the two MF ships and the wood from its path and it continued to sail on. The wild CCP-PRC provocation occurred about 75 miles from Hainan Island which has a new large PLAN base from which and in direct contravention of the UN International Law of the Sea it sends MF ships to establish bases on islands in the EEZs of the Philippines, Vietnam, Brunei, Malaysia.

/quote

I take it that you will have no problem when a chinese or russian ship parks 75 miles off some interesting port facility on USA coast and collects "data".

[Credo]

The US has security agreements with countries in the area. We were not in Chinese waters, at least not as recognized by the people we have security agreements with.