NY Times brands current protests in Thailand undemocratic movement

[quiuvo]

Its actually a really well written and nuanced article. I encourage everyone to read before making silly comments about the nyt or the States Sent from my GT-S5282 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Agree or disagree it is a very worthwhile article worthy of discussion. As opposed to simply flaming the writer or newspaper.

Sad I come in late because I was coming with a great lady. 555

I want Thai people to be Careful. I want you all to be ok. I know we have disagreements here but remember we care about "our" country. I live here!

[thailiketoo]

Oh come on, we all know that what we have here is very far from 'real' democracy and has always been. Right now we have Thaksinocracy ( aka Idiocracy ) and if you are against it then some of Thaksin's cronies will try and make your life difficult.

There can never be real democracy whilst the Shin clan are more interested in profiteering from the country than helping it and try to silence and imprison or even kill their critics!

You seem to be confusing democracy with moral government. Democracy is a simple system whereby the majority of the people choose representatives. Good or bad has nothing to do with democracy. There are good democracies and bad democracies. When the majority of people vote for a bad person you have bad government but still a democracy.

[thailiketoo]

All the Thai Governments are corrupt, but-

The red shirts are democratically elected each time because of the elite yellow shirts perpetuating a backward education system all these years?

OR

The Elite right wing can not accept democracy as it erodes the power they have held for century's over the uneducated poor.

In any case the road to democracy is not painless.

Its a shame when the elite yellow shirts were sent abroad to study, they either didn't study world history or more likely ignored it!

Nailed it. Re: your last statement- from experience I've noticed only kids who go abroad in their mid-teens have a chance to get re-programmed in a way that will get them on the ball. If they wait till tertiary level, they're already too cooked and inured to the nonsense here. From then on, you can give them the best ideas in the world, but their second to second consciousness will never be anything but greng jai, save face, don't rock the boat with Pii, food & whether they can catch up on the lakorn.

Perfect example- I was teaching several youngish ladies in a class who were gov't officials in one of TH's urban planning departments. After a comfort level was established, I suggested they travel around China where there has been some excellent urban planning done in some of the smaller and newer cities where large investments obviously had been made in oversized boulevards in anticipation of continued country-to-metropolis diaspora. This has made several urban areas (Suzhou, Hangzhou as examples if I remember right) much less congested and more liveable. This way they could get ideas for what to do about some of Thailand's up and coming cities (e.g. KK, Ubon, Udon, as opposed to BKK and CM both of which are beyond remedy via urban planning).

I was vexed and depressed by her response. They said they had already done such a tour (on taxpayers' money). Of those cities in China. Years ago. In one ear and out the other. Seeds cast on desert rocks. When's Thong Neua Gao on? Ok good I can get some glass noodles and shrimp in time.

This country is utterly and tragically hopeless. Top-level change or policy is and never will be anything more than cosmetic. Just enjoy living here and then make your way out & back home with one of these cute honeys before the real dust-up comes.

Nothing you have posted is even remotely connected to the article written in the NYT. It's a good article. Try reading it. The part about the real estate company is a good read.

[chivo]

But if the alleged vote buying on a mass scale is true, then it ISN'T truly democratic. The newspaper misses this fundamental aspect.

[thailiketoo]

Journalists like Mr. Fuller never speak the real truth. They edge around it because they are merely tools of the power elite privileged class. Fuller touches on points and uses quotes without ever digging on the issue raised. For example, his quote of Verapat stating that managers of the Crown Property Bureau are "acting behind the scenes." Fuller never digs at this to inquire what that means and to decode it.

There is no search for the truth in Thai journalism including Fuller's work for the NY Times. Journalists assigned in Thailand like Fuller are merely tools of the establishment with no freedom or protection to really seek the truth. Without that disclosure, transparency and debate, Thailand is headed for dictatorship.

The NY Times reporters have been awarded 112 Pulitzer prizes, more than any other newspaper.

The latest was, "2013: David Barstow and Alejandra Xanic von Bertrab, in Investigative Reporting, for describing bribery by Walmart in Mexico; New York Times staff, in Explanatory Reporting, for examining global business practices of Apple Inc. and other technology companies; David Barboza, in International Reporting, for exposing corruption in the Chinese government; and John Branch, in Feature Writing, for creating a multimedia presentation about avalanches."

[rixalex]

When the majority of people vote for a bad person you have bad government but still a democracy.

Democracy doesn't begin and end at the ballot box. Voting is just the first step in the process. If all steps after step one are ignored, you don't still have democracy. You have instead simply a tool of power.

[Jack Mountain]

But if the alleged vote buying on a mass scale is true, then it ISN'T truly democratic. The newspaper misses this fundamental aspect.

I don't see the diff. with the west, here they vote on a party who gives them money in the west they vote for the party who promise them money. False promises most of the time ...

[metisdead]

A post containing profanity has been removed:

3) Not to post in a manner that is vulgar, obscene or profane.

[MrSlatersParrot]

All the Thai Governments are corrupt, but-

The red shirts are democratically elected each time because of the elite yellow shirts perpetuating a backward education system all these years?

OR

The Elite right wing can not accept democracy as it erodes the power they have held for century's over the uneducated poor.

In any case the road to democracy is not painless.

Its a shame when the elite yellow shirts were sent abroad to study, they either didn't study world history or more likely ignored it!

Nailed it. Re: your last statement- from experience I've noticed only kids who go abroad in their mid-teens have a chance to get re-programmed in a way that will get them on the ball. If they wait till tertiary level, they're already too cooked and inured to the nonsense here. From then on, you can give them the best ideas in the world, but their second to second consciousness will never be anything but greng jai, save face, don't rock the boat with Pii, food & whether they can catch up on the lakorn.

Perfect example- I was teaching several youngish ladies in a class who were gov't officials in one of TH's urban planning departments. After a comfort level was established, I suggested they travel around China where there has been some excellent urban planning done in some of the smaller and newer cities where large investments obviously had been made in oversized boulevards in anticipation of continued country-to-metropolis diaspora. This has made several urban areas (Suzhou, Hangzhou as examples if I remember right) much less congested and more liveable. This way they could get ideas for what to do about some of Thailand's up and coming cities (e.g. KK, Ubon, Udon, as opposed to BKK and CM both of which are beyond remedy via urban planning).

I was vexed and depressed by her response. They said they had already done such a tour (on taxpayers' money). Of those cities in China. Years ago. In one ear and out the other. Seeds cast on desert rocks. When's Thong Neua Gao on? Ok good I can get some glass noodles and shrimp in time.

This country is utterly and tragically hopeless. Top-level change or policy is and never will be anything more than cosmetic. Just enjoy living here and then make your way out & back home with one of these cute honeys before the real dust-up comes.

thanks you're absolutely right

been there (here in Thailand) done that

[chooka]

They must be paid by Thaksin.

Really? You got any proof of that? Why is it that when someone has an alternate opinion to anti-government folks they're automatically associated with Thaksin? You don't think that there's even a slight possibility this person came to this conclusion them self drawing from what they've observed? God I am so sick of all this conjecture and conspiracy theories being brought up anytime someone disagrees with your point of view.

You don't think that there's even a slight possibility this person came to this conclusion them self drawing from what they've observed?

They must have been wearing blinkers or something! The NY Times ain't the paper it used to be.

Thaksin must be in control of the world media as there are similar stories in the Australian papers.

[thailiketoo]

But if the alleged vote buying on a mass scale is true, then it ISN'T truly democratic. The newspaper misses this fundamental aspect.

Post your proof that the alleged vote buying was one sided or available only to one side. But since the article mentions that the current government has won every election since 2001 it seems unlikely.

NYT writes, "The antidemocratic ideas put forward by protest leaders are a jarring contrast with the image of Thailand as a cosmopolitan country open to the world."

I don't think the world would be fooled since 2001.

Further the article quotes Anuchyd Sapanphong who writes on Facebook, “I don’t think we are suited for democracy right now,” he said on his page. “We don’t understand it that well — including me.”

[citizen33]

But if the alleged vote buying on a mass scale is true, then it ISN'T truly democratic. The newspaper misses this fundamental aspect.

I don't see the diff. with the west, here they vote on a party who gives them money in the west they vote for the party who promise them money. False promises most of the time ...

This is the fatal flaw in the anti-Thaksin side's argument - it is the fundamental misconception. There are many academic studies of the dynamics of vote buying that are worth reading and it is also fairly easy to analyse the numbers of votes and swings in individual constituencies which show a pattern that seems inconsistent with results based on vote buying. I would be fascinated to read a recent published article by a non-Thai political scientist that says anything different. The votes in the North and NE are cast mainly for reasons of sentiment, rather than for money. There is nothing to radicalise a group more than being told they are too stupid to vote and seeing the bodies brought home from Bangkok when people went to demand a fair election. The real argument is about whether it is right to respect the one-man-one- vote system even when it produces results that you do not like. Probably the same forces of social change that are eroding deference to the old elite will eventually give rise to a party not dominated by TS.

Edited December 20, 2013 by citizen33

[Zolt]

But if the alleged vote buying on a mass scale is true, then it ISN'T truly democratic. The newspaper misses this fundamental aspect.

Here's a good piece on vote buying.

http://asiancorrespondent.com/116697/vote-buying-thaksin-and-the-democrats/

The thing is, all parties actively engage in it, and the Dem's financial backup is at least as good as PT's. Then most people will either refuse the money, or take it but vote for whoever they wanted to anyway.

It's pretty easy to verify actually, just run a few opinion polls across the country. People don't get paid to answer those - so if the result is broadly consistent with the elections, it means that vote buying isn't such a huge issue after all.

[harryfrompattaya]

They must be paid by Thaksin.

Really? You got any proof of that? Why is it that when someone has an alternate opinion to anti-government folks they're automatically associated with Thaksin? You don't think that there's even a slight possibility this person came to this conclusion them self drawing from what they've observed? God I am so sick of all this conjecture and conspiracy theories being brought up anytime someone disagrees with your point of view.

He has no proof he never met anyone that knows anything about Thaksin. He attacks Thaksin to make himself important. I love the fools that known Thaskin is in Dubai. Maybe they want to buy the Brooklyn Bridge.

Now for me I play golf with Thaksin that is Henry Thaksin who owns a fish store on Fulton Street NYC for 48 years

Edited December 20, 2013 by harryfrompattaya

[thailiketoo]

But if the alleged vote buying on a mass scale is true, then it ISN'T truly democratic. The newspaper misses this fundamental aspect.

Here's a good piece on vote buying.

http://asiancorrespondent.com/116697/vote-buying-thaksin-and-the-democrats/

The thing is, all parties actively engage in it, and the Dem's financial backup is at least as good as PT's. Then most people will either refuse the money, or take it but vote for whoever they wanted to anyway.

It's pretty easy to verify actually, just run a few opinion polls across the country. People don't get paid to answer those - so if the result is broadly consistent with the elections, it means that vote buying isn't such a huge issue after all.

From the article you posted.

"The upcountry electorate is richer, better educated, and more experienced at elections than ever before. In truth, the problem is not that upcountry voters don’t know how to use their vote, and that the result is distorted by patronage and vote-buying. The problem is that they have learnt to use the vote only too well.

But now the electors have got smart, they have to be stopped. The bleating about vote-buying and patronage politics is simply an attempt to undermine electoral democracy because it seems to be working."

I get this picture in my head of hundreds of red shirts dancing around a bonfire in a village and a guy in a yellow shirt comes in and tries to buy votes. Does everyone see how silly that is? And how it negates the argument about vote buying?

[LomSak27]

My guess is those protesters at the US Embassy in Bangkok were pretty much spot on. If you are undemocratic, if you are trying to overthrow the elected opgverment, you are just not going to get good pess in the US, so you better squawk about it and see if you can intimidate..

No Brainer, except for those Nation readers who need to take a look outside the rabbit hole of thai politics.

[kingalfred]

the BBC have had a string of spoon fed journalists for more than 10 years.from Q.Somerville to J.Head . The Uk and World Service punters have been fed opinionated nonsense for years.

[thailiketoo]

the BBC have had a string of spoon fed journalists for more than 10 years.from Q.Somerville to J.Head . The Uk and World Service punters have been fed opinionated nonsense for years.

What is a spoon fed journalist? What is a service punter? What does the BBC have to do with this thread?

[chooka]

the BBC have had a string of spoon fed journalists for more than 10 years.from Q.Somerville to J.Head . The Uk and World Service punters have been fed opinionated nonsense for years.

What is a spoon fed journalist? What is a service punter? What does the BBC have to do with this thread?

A spoon fed journalist is a person who has a degree who contradicts the uneducated. If you don't agree with my point of view then you must be spoon fed and unable to have a point of view.

[OleNordman]

JERRY 1011 Hit the nail on the head. For those unversed in global political history, the plan being followed in Thailand is just the Thai version of returning "Power to the People". Having worked behind the Iron Curtain before the wall fell, the plan here is very much the same as the one followed by Lenin and Stalin, and has actually been followed by many other leaders throughout history. Demonize the individual you want to eliminate, organize the people against that individual, force them from the position they hold or exterminate them thereby creating a leadership vacuum, graciously step forward to provide leadership until a new more noble leader can be found and then dictate. Leadership by committee was not just a precept of General Motors it is a basic tenant of Communism. It is not, in any way shape or form, related to the Grecian concept of Democracy. It might be a good idea to consider that Thailand is surrounded by Communist Nations who do not have particularly affectionate feelings toward us and would love to see Thailand fail. Who would gain the most from civil war? Of course, the ineffective derisive and selfish leadership provided by ALL parties is opening the door to implosion.

[wwest5829]

Perhaps considering how the U.S.A. likes to view democracy and their interpretation of other nations culture and political behavior the comments made by the N.Y.Times are best treated with contempt . We are all well aware of the truth surrounding the ''hidden Iraq weapons aren't we?

Consider the history of the U.S.A. and its treatment of the native Americans the imported negro slave assorted anti war demonstrations totally democratic actions involved and used all the way by the American government and its police, para military and military forces.

Yes, my country has many faults and our history reflects many times of not living up to our ideals. Now...if you will, explain how that has anything to do with a Thai politician calling for not allowing an election by the Thai citizens? If the Pleu Thai opposition wants to win the support of the Voting Thai majority....do something for your citizens. It's your country, absolutely, but if you want recognition and respect as a democratic nation...well, sorry, Kuhn Suthep's proposal will not wash. Start today to redevelop Thai society politics. I write as a world citizen and expat resident wishing Thailand well.

[chivo]

I never said that vote buying was one sided.

[englishoak]

the BBC have had a string of spoon fed journalists for more than 10 years.from Q.Somerville to J.Head . The Uk and World Service punters have been fed opinionated nonsense for years.

You mean like no foreign journalist or agency present in Thailand is allowed to report freely from inside more like and its not liked when they do their job properly. I prefer Al Jazeera to the BBC but youd be hard pushed to find any news station applauding this current farce.

You got one thing right about journalism in Thailand, it is spoon fed but foreign news does not have to swallow it and reports how it sees fit. Thank goodness

Watch whatever news station you like outside the kingdom, they will all be far far more accurate than those from inside and also give a far more unbiased open view looking from outside than those that are in it.

The NY Times are correct the movement is absolutely an undemocratic movement ..... its simply the stark truth. Call this movement or mob anything you want but don't dare to call it democratic and not called a liar, the civilised world knows what a democratic process is ... and it sure isnt the one being prostituted about in BKK .