My first 6 weeks in Chiang Mai

[FolkGuitar]

Farangs playing music in public venues can be a risky business.

Thai performers don't like competition from foreigners, and will do what is necessary to eliminate it.

The unholy trinity of the entertainment industry, organized crime, and police, are best left unprovoked here in Chiang Mai.

If the urge to play becomes irrepressible, then appear like a flash mob, as though it were spontaneous. Don't perform at the same place regularly, or you will be asking for trouble. It doesn't matter if you are facing the audience, or facing the wall; sooner or later you will be facing the music.

'Sigh...' Perhaps YOU would like to provide a citation for the comment that 'Immigration police routinely arrest and deport foreign musicians in CM for working without work permits.' It seems that FiftyTwo was unable to do so.

Or even YOUR comment that 'Farangs playing music in public venues can be a risky business.'

We are well aware of what went on when the police arrested the musicians who were;

Performing on stage

Bragging on the Internet about making lots of money playing in Thailand

Bragging locally about making lots of money playing in bars in Chiang Mai

and doing it all with expired visas, to say nothing of work permits.

We KNOW that the people who were deported were deported for not having valid visas. They were NOT deported for working without permits.

And there has been an active folk music group playing in that same place on the same day every week for the past fifteen years...

Get a grip, man! The sky is NOT falling!

While it's possible that the immigration police may stop by, we all have valid visas... We are not 'working,' we are not 'performing,' we are not even 'volunteering.' We are a club that meets to share our hobby with other club members. No Thai law against that. Not even a little one.

Unless you'd care to share the citation that says otherwise?

Everything I said stands. You haven't convincingly refuted anything.

Just because your visas are in order doesn't mean dick.

If you play a regular gig anywhere in the city you're going to get lessons from Thais that you won't forget anytime soon.

I haven't needed to refute anything. And what stands? You still haven't given any citation for the statements you made. So far, they are just you blowing hot air... Running amok and shouting that the sky is falling.

It's your opinion. You are certainly welcome to it, but please don't try to pass it off as fact.

Please, either prove what you say, or understand that we will know just how much of what you say in the future is worth.

Even your own words trip you up; "If you play a regular gig..." A gig is a paid job. It's not a club meeting. Clubs and hobby interest groups meet all the time, and the police take no interest in hobbies.

Please... go warn all the people who are playing paid jobs in bars around town and leave us alone. They might benefit from your paranoia. But we have no use for doom merchants.

[DogNo1]

Today I came across an article in the Japan Times about the huge problem of bragging on Facebook and Twitter. The CEO of VanyerMedia says, "One of the absolute worst things a human being can do is brag about himself all the time". Human vanity is indeed an obnoxious phenomenon. A link to the article is below.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/life/2013/12/23/lifestyle/can-social-media-boast-an-antidote-for-bragging/#.UrnYhn2mrbX

[Loaded]

I feel a little, but not too much, sadness for the people who live in Chiang Mai and yet wherever they go and whatever they do, it's a nightmare for them. Maybe they should start taking thinking why they attract so much negativity.

[JingerBen]

There are many falangs playing regular gigs at restaurants and bars. Get out and have a look around. Things did go quiet a few years ago when there were those couple of raids but there has been nothing since.

Your post was concise and to the point;

You say that there are many farangs playing gigs around town. OK, I'll take your word for it and won't ask who they are and where they are playing. Publicity might be bad for their health.

You seem to be familiar with the current scene; but your assumption that the last draconian crackdown was a one-off occurrence, an anomaly, betrays a limited perspective.

Police activity has always gone in cycles here. Strict enforcement, followed by periods of relative leniency. Another crackdown will come. You can bet the ranch on it.

These cycles are interspersed with the occasional gangland-style killing. If you were here in the late '70s you will remember the Kanchana Cafe on Tha Phae, and JoJo their American [if I recall correctly] guitarman who was found floating in that open sewer that used to be the Kampang Din moat. His wrIsts were handcuffed behind his back, but his death was ruled a suicide. The lesson wasn't lost on the owners, who never hired another farang musician. It was Thais only until the place closed down a few years later.

This incident and subsequent "suicides" convinced me that underestimating the authorities and the various organized crime groups here could have deadly consequences.

Edited December 25, 2013 by onthedarkside
Insulting comments removed

[LarryBird]

I love the whole 'nothing's happened to me, and therefore nothing can happen to me.'

Guess what, I know a lot of people that drive drunk and most of the time, they make it home fine, that doesn't make it a good idea.

[FolkGuitar]

Your post was concise and to the point; in stark contrast to FolkGuitar, a notorious gasbag, whose free-associative rambling can so easily be mistaken for intellect.

Please sir... just one citation to back up what you say. Attack me all you'd like, but provide proof of your allegations about police activities while you're at it..

I realize that you don't like my posts. I can live with that. But do you think you might provide just a little bit of fact that can shore up your comments? I won't ask for a lot of facts. One or two would be helpful... It would show us that at the very least, you aren't a raving paranoid.

We already know about the group that was arrested. Those with expired visas were charged with visa violations and expelled from the Kingdom. Everyone else was released. NO ONE was charged with working illegally in Thailand.

Neither the 'real' police nor the 'real' Immigration officers have ever arrested nor deported people jamming together for fun. Never. And certainly not members of a hobby group playing together.

Just one citation backing up what you say will be all it will take to get me to apologize to you.

Chiang Mai is not a frightful place in which to live, even for guitar players.

[rsokolowski]

People who can't live with their own race have a problem and it always manifests itself over here eventually..going thousands of miles away doesn't change much in the long term.

My race is the human race!

I currently live in Hawaii where 75% of the population is Asian or Pacific Islander and I get along just fine. I have been out here since 1983 and have gotten along just fine. Maybe it shouldn't make that much of a difference what race of people "you live with".

[FiftyTwo]

There are many falangs playing regular gigs at restaurants and bars. Get out and have a look around. Things did go quiet a few years ago when there were those couple of raids but there has been nothing since.

I think the suppression of old white guys doing cover versions of "Hotel California" was broadly a good thing.

A lot more Thai musicians were employed in the "old white guy" music bars for about a year after.

And I didn't get 70s American music, played by amateurs, forced on me (so much).

We're in Thailand and I like to hear Thai music when I'm out.

IMHO, well due for another crack-down.

[JingerBen]

Your post was concise and to the point; in stark contrast to FolkGuitar, a notorious gasbag, whose free-associative rambling can so easily be mistaken for intellect.

Please sir... just one citation to back up what you say. Attack me all you'd like, but provide proof of your allegations about police activities while you're at it..

I realize that you don't like my posts. I can live with that. But do you think you might provide just a little bit of fact that can shore up your comments? I won't ask for a lot of facts. One or two would be helpful... It would show us that at the very least, you aren't a raving paranoid.

We already know about the group that was arrested. Those with expired visas were charged with visa violations and expelled from the Kingdom. Everyone else was released. NO ONE was charged with working illegally in Thailand.

Neither the 'real' police nor the 'real' Immigration officers have ever arrested nor deported people jamming together for fun. Never. And certainly not members of a hobby group playing together.

Just one citation backing up what you say will be all it will take to get me to apologize to you.

Chiang Mai is not a frightful place in which to live, even for guitar players.

Your pettifogging insistence on "citations" obscures the main point of this discussion; and that is the existence of a well-connected entertainment mafia in Chiang Mai.

The second point is how they deal with people who encroach on their turf.

Do you want me to solve the hundreds of suspicious deaths of foreigners here in the past 30+ years? You don't have to be a "raving paranoid" to wonder what happened to them, and what percentage met their fate because they didn't have sense enough to keep a low profile while pursuing their work or pleasure. Take care, Dorothy, this ain't Kansas.

It may well be that in the not too distant future - as Thailand becomes more and more like Kansas - friends can jam together in public places, and that foreign musicians with the proper permits will be able to play anywhere. But those days are yet to come. The old dinosaurs aren't completely extinct, and to think that they are is willful ignorance.

[Oscar2]

Immigration police do not routinely arrest and deport foreign musicians in CM for 'working' without work permits. they are everywhere in the city (and everywhere in Thailand) except i have not noticed any in the Southern provinces. most of them aren't being paid a single Satang. been that way for at least 30 years that i know of.

foreign musicians are not among 100's of suspicious deaths because they were jamming.

[FolkGuitar]

Your post was concise and to the point; in stark contrast to FolkGuitar, a notorious gasbag, whose free-associative rambling can so easily be mistaken for intellect.

Please sir... just one citation to back up what you say. Attack me all you'd like, but provide proof of your allegations about police activities while you're at it..

I realize that you don't like my posts. I can live with that. But do you think you might provide just a little bit of fact that can shore up your comments? I won't ask for a lot of facts. One or two would be helpful... It would show us that at the very least, you aren't a raving paranoid.

We already know about the group that was arrested. Those with expired visas were charged with visa violations and expelled from the Kingdom. Everyone else was released. NO ONE was charged with working illegally in Thailand.

Neither the 'real' police nor the 'real' Immigration officers have ever arrested nor deported people jamming together for fun. Never. And certainly not members of a hobby group playing together.

Just one citation backing up what you say will be all it will take to get me to apologize to you.

Chiang Mai is not a frightful place in which to live, even for guitar players.

Your pettifogging insistence on "citations" obscures the main point of this discussion; and that is the existence of a well-connected entertainment mafia in Chiang Mai.

The second point is how they deal with people who encroach on their turf.

Do you want me to solve the hundreds of suspicious deaths of foreigners here in the past 30+ years? You don't have to be a "raving paranoid" to wonder what happened to them, and what percentage met their fate because they didn't have sense enough to keep a low profile while pursuing their work or pleasure. Take care, Dorothy, this ain't Kansas.

It may well be that in the not too distant future - as Thailand becomes more and more like Kansas - friends can jam together in public places, and that foreign musicians with the proper permits will be able to play anywhere. But those days are yet to come. The old dinosaurs aren't completely extinct, and to think that they are is willful ignorance.

What you call 'pettifogging,' I call asking for you to give us something other than your opinion or at least call it that, rather than implying that you have access to secrete information from which the rest of the public has been excluded.

And the main point of this discussion was Diddl's experience in the first six weeks of her being in Chiang Mai, not your version of the sky is falling. Here in ThaiVisa she managed to raise the bar on the number of paranoid doom-merchants who came out to rant and rave. Your 'hundreds of suspicious deaths' is something that you can occupy your time with. The rest of us have more positive pursuits in mind. In fifteen years of playing music for fun (note I said 'for fun' and not for employment by local venue) we have never had any problems, nor has anyone shown that such problems exist... other than you and one other Neither of whom will back up what they say with any sort of proof. THAT is why I keep asking you to show some proof of what you are saying, yet you just keep dancing around the issue. So keep on dancing, bro. We've seen it before. Being that you can't dazzle us with brilliance, you try to baffle us with bull$hi!. Sorry. It doesn't work. We can see behind the curtain.

And for you, Diddl, keep on enjoying your stay in Chiang Mai. Believe me, it isn't all doom and gloom. Some of us manage to live here in sunshine for many, many years. Certainly there are rainy days (to continue the metaphor,) but this is The Land of Smiles for a reason, and the reason isn't ignorance. It's contentment.

[FolkGuitar]

In all fairness to JingleBells and Fifty-two, let me say that yes, there is a possibility that we could be violating some rule with our club's music playing, and there is a possibility that we could have difficulties. Who really knows? We've been shown no proof of it. There is a possibility that we could get hit by lightning when we walk in the rain. There has been proof of that. There is a possibility that the plane I fly on could crash. There has been proof of that. There is the possibility that I could get trampled by an elephant. There has been proof of that. I've even seen that one happen to a nasty mahout in Mae Rim myself. There are myriad dangers everywhere in this world...

...but I refuse to live my life hiding under a rock trying to avoid them. That is NOT how I choose to live. I will not stay indoors just because it's raining. I will not refuse to fly just because there have been plane crashes in the past. I will not stop interacting with elephants because someone was once trampled. And I will not stop playing music with friends because (you say) there is a possibility of difficulties.

There is no such thing as 'security' in anything other than one's self. In 1957 a very wise woman said;

"Security is mostly a superstition. Security does
not exist in nature, nor do the children of men
as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no
safer in the long run than outright exposure.
Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."

It was Helen Keller who said that. If a blind and deaf woman can live her life like that, there is no reason I can't. You may wish to live your life differently. That is your choice to make. But to me, life is for living. Not something to hide from. We all make our own choices.

[JingerBen]

In all fairness to JingleBells and Fifty-two, let me say that yes, there is a possibility that we could be violating some rule with our club's music playing, and there is a possibility that we could have difficulties. Who really knows? We've been shown no proof of it. There is a possibility that we could get hit by lightning when we walk in the rain. There has been proof of that. There is a possibility that the plane I fly on could crash. There has been proof of that. There is the possibility that I could get trampled by an elephant. There has been proof of that. I've even seen that one happen to a nasty mahout in Mae Rim myself. There are myriad dangers everywhere in this world...

...but I refuse to live my life hiding under a rock trying to avoid them. That is NOT how I choose to live. I will not stay indoors just because it's raining. I will not refuse to fly just because there have been plane crashes in the past. I will not stop interacting with elephants because someone was once trampled. And I will not stop playing music with friends because (you say) there is a possibility of difficulties.

There is no such thing as 'security' in anything other than one's self. In 1957 a very wise woman said;

"Security is mostly a superstition. Security does

not exist in nature, nor do the children of men

as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no

safer in the long run than outright exposure.

Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."

It was Helen Keller who said that. If a blind and deaf woman can live her life like that, there is no reason I can't. You may wish to live your life differently. That is your choice to make. But to me, life is for living. Not something to hide from. We all make our own choices.

I hereby declare you the winner.

Your diarrhoea of words has won the debate... but what has it done to poor Diddl? I think it has spooked her into gettin' outta Dodge.

Are you still here Diddl? Sorry that we ran your topic off the rails!

You can come back anytime now.

[FolkGuitar]

It was your inability to defend your statements that lost the debate. Had nothing to do with me.

Opinions aren't facts, no matter how many times you repeat them nor how loudly you shout them.

And you know what they say about opinions...

I'm pretty sure Diddl is still here. Just more the wiser for the postings in this thread. She may not have learned much about Chiang Mai, but she certainly got a good introduction to the "Doom and Gloom Squad" in ThaiVisa. That alone is worth its weight in Duke's pizza!

[Diddl]

Yes, I am still here, reading all the Doom and Gloom. FolkGuitar is better at replying than I am so I left it all up to him, the wise man. In any case, they were targeting him at this time. I feel sorry for these people that cannot see things as they really are, or perhaps they just enjoy trying to frighten the living daylights out of people. Perhaps they don’t want others to come here and enjoy the place and the people. Who knows their motives! Anyway, they haven’t frightened me away, I am here to stay.

And yes, they divert the topic of the forum, anything to spoil it for everyone else who is interested, that is their way. You often get people like that on forums, they can’t stand it when others are happy. I wonder what made them that way, they never tell us – again, all opinions and no facts!

[anonymouse]

What a depressing thread this has turned into..watch out folk Guitar you might be handcuffed and thrown into the moat for daring to play your guitar in CM, what a lot of [expletive] nonsense.

To summarize my thoughts, 6 weeks is far too short a time to judge living in a place but I'm pretty sure that you will still love it a year down the line but realize that it is not paradise..but then where is?

Chiang Mai can be a dangerous place and there are scammers around, same as any developing country or tourist destination where there is opportunity, I've spend best part of the last 16 years here, probably been over charged for the odd tuk tuk ride now and again, maybe the odd occasion when I might have had a bill padded by 20 baht or something. Never had any dealings with the police apart from in a positive light I'd say that this would be the same conclusion for pretty much all the Farangs on this forum.

The Chiang Mai forum has always been populated by a lot of miserable, whining old men with a few posters who have something positive, informative or amusing to add, unfortunately the whiners and whingers are growing in numbers.

To finish up my predictions for 2014 are

The Op will be outed as a troll and be outed as a retired trans-sexual kitchen fitter from Barnsley

Folk Guitar will be the target of a massive police sting that will come to be know as the 'War on Folk Music' and result in 6,562 Farang amateur musicians being found dead in mysterious musical instrument related circumstances throughout the kingdom.

and a joke

There's this little guy sitting inside a bar, just looking at his drink. He sits motionless, staring
like that for half-an-hour.
Then, this big guy breezes into the bar, steps next to him, reaches over, takes the drink from this
poor guy, and just drinks it all down. At that, the poor man starts crying.
The big guy, embarrassed, says: "Come on man, I was just joking. Here, I'll buy you another drink. I
just can't stand to see a man crying."
"No, it's not that," replies the little guy. "It's just that today is the worst day of my life!"
" First, I overslept and was late to an important meeting. My boss, who has a furious temper, fired
me! Then, when I left the building, I found out that my car had been stolen! The police filled out
some forms, but said they could do nothing."
"So next I got a cab to return home, and after I paid the cab driver and the cab had gone, I found
that I left my wallet in the cab!"
"When I got home I discovered my wife has left me. I left home and came straight to this bar. And
then, when I had finally decided to put an end to my miserable life, you show up and drink all my
poison. ..!"

source: http://www.jokebuddha.com/Miserable/recent#ixzz2oYLn0QgG

Edited December 26, 2013 by anonymouse

[rayongchelsea]

Yes, it is too depressive even to counter balance the ( misplaced) euphoria of the op.

There is a lot of paranoia in CM.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Yes, I am still here, reading all the Doom and Gloom. FolkGuitar is better at replying than I am so I left it all up to him, the wise man. In any case, they were targeting him at this time. I feel sorry for these people that cannot see things as they really are, or perhaps they just enjoy trying to frighten the living daylights out of people. Perhaps they don’t want others to come here and enjoy the place and the people. Who knows their motives! Anyway, they haven’t frightened me away, I am here to stay.

And yes, they divert the topic of the forum, anything to spoil it for everyone else who is interested, that is their way. You often get people like that on forums, they can’t stand it when others are happy. I wonder what made them that way, they never tell us – again, all opinions and no facts!

tell us more about your wonderful condo.

What building is it? what did you pay?

Maybe some other people on here will want to move in and be your neighbor(s).

[Tokay]

Based on how clear and pristine the sky has been the past few days, at least you're in for a much healthier lifestyle than you are used to.

[FolkGuitar]

What a depressing thread this has turned into..watch out folk Guitar you might be handcuffed and thrown into the moat for daring to play your guitar in CM, what a lot of [expletive] nonsense......

......Folk Guitar will be the target of a massive police sting that will come to be know as the 'War on Folk Music' and result in 6,562 Farang amateur musicians being found dead in mysterious musical instrument related circumstances throughout the kingdom.

It will be made into a movie called "Death by G-String - The Loy Kroh Murders." I understand they are getting Kris Kristofferson to play me. I approve.

[AJ Alex]

I'm moving to Chiang Mai in two months

Reading this thread has just made me very excited

I'm 28 years old and I sold everything I owned (apart from my clothes and guitar) when I left the UK

I'm going to try and live here for as long as possible

Thanks for the thread

[anonymouse]

I'm moving to Chiang Mai in two months

Reading this thread has just made me very excited

I'm 28 years old and I sold everything I owned (apart from my clothes and guitar) when I left the UK

I'm going to try and live here for as long as possible

Thanks for the thread

You obviously didn't read the thread properly otherwise you would realize that if you bring a guitar you are likely to be deported for not having a work permit before you even get through customs

[AJ Alex]

Did you pay for your condo in one go?

I was hoping to get one eventually but I would have to pay every month

Is this possible?

Thanks

[AJ Alex]

I'm moving to Chiang Mai in two months

Reading this thread has just made me very excited

I'm 28 years old and I sold everything I owned (apart from my clothes and guitar) when I left the UK

I'm going to try and live here for as long as possible

Thanks for the thread

You obviously didn't read the thread properly otherwise you would realize that if you bring a guitar you are likely to be deported for not having a work permit before you even get through customs

I did read the thread properly, but thank you for your concern

I said I brought my guitar with me, I didn't say I was planning on using it to work with.

I am a music teacher and I currently have a work permit

Also, if you would be so kind as to read my thread again you will notice that I used the word "here" indicates that I am currently in the country and have already passed through customs.

Maybe now you will realize your own limitations with regards to giving advice and criticism

Think a little more before you type next time as you may end up looking stupid

Thanks

[anonymouse]

I'm moving to Chiang Mai in two months

Reading this thread has just made me very excited

I'm 28 years old and I sold everything I owned (apart from my clothes and guitar) when I left the UK

I'm going to try and live here for as long as possible

Thanks for the thread

You obviously didn't read the thread properly otherwise you would realize that if you bring a guitar you are likely to be deported for not having a work permit before you even get through customs

I did read the thread properly, but thank you for your concern

I said I brought my guitar with me, I didn't say I was planning on using it to work with.

I am a music teacher and I currently have a work permit

Also, if you would be so kind as to read my thread again you will notice that I used the word "here" indicates that I am currently in the country and have already passed through customs.

Maybe now you will realize your own limitations with regards to giving advice and criticism

Think a little more before you type next time as you may end up looking stupid

Thanks

It was a joke..don't forget to pack your sense of humor

[FolkGuitar]

Did you pay for your condo in one go?

I was hoping to get one eventually but I would have to pay every month

Is this possible?

Thanks

I believe he was making a joke based on what had been said previously in this thread about guitars and guitar playing.

[AJ Alex]

Ahh i'm glad it was a joke as your thread at the top was funny

I did wonder if what i said would end up coming back to bite me as it clearly has

Fair play

Unfortunately my first 9 months in this country have been quite stressful, hence the slight resonance of an attitude problem

But i'm hoping everything is gonna change once I move up there

A: Whats E.T short for?

B: Extra Terrestrial

A: No, it's because he's got little legs

[FolkGuitar]

Ahh i'm glad it was a joke as your thread at the top was funny

I did wonder if what i said would end up coming back to bite me as it clearly has

This is ThaiVisa.

If you post that you liked something, people will call you naive.

But if you post that you didn't like something, people will call you jaded.

If you post that you enjoyed an encounter with Thais, people will tell you that you are too new to see their ulterior motive.

But if you say that you've been treated unfairly by a Thai, people will tell you it's because you are a foreigner.

If you say that you meet a wonderful woman/man, people here will tell you that they ALL only want your money.

But if you say that you met a real con-artist woman, people will say that you are bashing the Thais.

If the police ask you for your identification, people will tell you that they are looking for a bribe.

If you post that the police helped you, people will say that they were only looking for a hand-out.

Huh?

No matter what you post here, it's going to come back and bite you. Especially as some of the above may well be real...

[cnxkoolpunt9]

Another happy camper here. I've been fortunate to have lived in Chiang Mai for over 20 years. During that time the physical appearance has changed with all the infrastructure improvements and gated communities going up, etc. I've got a beautiful family in Chiang Mai and couldn't imagine a better place to live.

[anto]

Am also pretty happy in Chiang Mai .Am now here close to 4 years .Today i ran out of petrol on my motorcycle close to the City center .Within 10 seconds of me starting to push my bike ,a young Thai lad pulled up offering help .He pushed my bike with his foot with me on it to the close by petrol station he was aware of .

I can tell similar storyies of being offered help in many different Countryies ,but the speed of the help being offered today blew my mind away .;-)

Edited December 27, 2013 by anto