Bangkok overrun by huge protest

[binjalin]

My missus is red to the core as are most Issan folk. Not because they are stupid, ill educated and unthinking morons ...no...because they despise everything that the Bangkok wealthy and Amart stand for. I think it was in the late 50's that the Issan dialect was banned from schools... so English is actually their 3rd language. The wealthy in Bangkok send their children to international schools whilst ALL previous governments have purposely put in place practices which disenfranchise the rural poor from a good education. Keep them in their place where they belong ! ... a case in point is the convoluted written languge..poor old Somchai working in the paddy from dawn to dusk has little time left after mastering Thai to explore any other educational routes. The Thai culture of patronage, feudalism, face and respecting a Poo Yai (irrespective of how they got their wealth... I'm thinking Suthep here)... all comes together to explain why the rural poor will take a chance on the Thaksin regime.... He can walk with the people... Abhisit? I think not. So to all you posters who say that Thaksin just 'bought' the votes .. you are being stupid beyond belief. If someone is going to give them 200 B ... they will take it...even from the Democrats...THEN .. go and vote for who they want anyway. The real problem is that the Democrats have consistently shown to be incapable as a strong opposition, as a consequence we have the so called 'democratic dictatorship', this, together with a piss weak judicial system with no real checks and balances and we have what is modern Thailand.

good post and I have made the point about no one sees them vote and they will vote there own choice and take the money (wouldn't you?).

Many yellow posters just don't 'get it' or refuse to 'get it' - take your pick

[whybother]

My missus is red to the core as are most Issan folk. Not because they are stupid, ill educated and unthinking morons ...no...because they despise everything that the Bangkok wealthy and Amart stand for. I think it was in the late 50's that the Issan dialect was banned from schools... so English is actually their 3rd language. The wealthy in Bangkok send their children to international schools whilst ALL previous governments have purposely put in place practices which disenfranchise the rural poor from a good education. Keep them in their place where they belong ! ... a case in point is the convoluted written languge..poor old Somchai working in the paddy from dawn to dusk has little time left after mastering Thai to explore any other educational routes. The Thai culture of patronage, feudalism, face and respecting a Poo Yai (irrespective of how they got their wealth... I'm thinking Suthep here)... all comes together to explain why the rural poor will take a chance on the Thaksin regime.... He can walk with the people... Abhisit? I think not. So to all you posters who say that Thaksin just 'bought' the votes .. you are being stupid beyond belief. If someone is going to give them 200 B ... they will take it...even from the Democrats...THEN .. go and vote for who they want anyway. The real problem is that the Democrats have consistently shown to be incapable as a strong opposition, as a consequence we have the so called 'democratic dictatorship', this, together with a piss weak judicial system with no real checks and balances and we have what is modern Thailand.

Making the assumption that everyone in Bangkok and everyone protesting are wealthy and amart is just as bad as assuming that everyone north of Bangkok is stupid, ill educated and unthinking morons.

[hawker9000]

This is all so simple. Well, not really - genuine substantial reforms are needed, but...

If the PTP (including all formerly elected office-holders and senior appointees) would just repudiate Thaksin (and given the record of the YS incumbency would have to include all of the Shinawatres), openly, individually, irrevocably, and in a manner that would involve clear loss of face if ever put aside, Suthep individually might not be satisfied, but his strength would drain away. (...and BTW, as evidence of their "good faith" - a euphemism to be sure - revoke Thaksin's passport.)

But that won't happen, obviously. You see, it IS all about Thaksin. One man who won't give up his grab for wealth & power - and that man isn't Suthep, no matter what those struggling to deflect attention from Thaksin keep chanting.. And so, all this. It, including Suthep, could be over tomorrow.

Edited December 23, 2013 by hawker9000

[andyww]

Suthep is only the mouthpiece for the slow launch of a miliatry coup. The military with the help of influential others is using Suthep to create an emergency that requires a military intervention to reinstall the loyal subjects, the democrats, as the leading party and at the same time make changes they and the other one in charge favor in the constitution. The democracy of one person one vote is too much of a threat to the traditional institutions in Thailand. A political crisis has to occur in order for the military intervention to appear legitimate locally and internationally. The ongoing use of lese majeste to silence critics is a wonderous thing since the charges can never be revealed. A brilliant way to maintain military control of the country and silence critics while the lapdog democrats provide a democratic cover for the true powers behind the scene.

This is exactly right. Suthep has direct support from very high places, which we are not allowed to mention here. There is in fact a whole aspect of this situation which cannot be mentioned either on this forum or by the Western media who are based in Thailand.

Here in the UK the Thai community probably have a better understanding of exactly whats going on than anyone else and can openly discuss aspects which are prohibited elsewhere.

[almavro]

I keep seeing references to the electoral dominance of the TPT party, and they are in fact the majority. But 52% of the voters voted other-than TPT in 2011 -- 36% for the Democrat Party. I suspect that had nature taken its course and the government remained for its full term, it's a fair guess that enough people would have been offended to make an election a real race. However, when the TPT proposed the amnesty so 'carelessly,' the DP jumped the gun and forced an election now, before the tide had fully turned. This makes the outcome much more iffy. And variable, as many otherwise DP voters could be turned off by the Guinness record street party in Bangkok.

On another but related point, maybe one of the posters with more time to spare could explain to me how the DP withdrawal helps them? In a "normal" parliamentary system the remaining parties would be laughing: "Oh! You don't want to field anyone? Watch while we *really* take over!" Surely one less party the size of the DP helps almost every other party, with voters having one less choice to consider?

To quote the philosopher... "Just sayin'...."

Edited December 23, 2013 by almavro

[SPIKECM]

I agree entirely, but you can't ignore the Rice Pledging Scheme and the Amnesty Bill. It isn't enough to despise the Bangkok Elite. Look at the French revolution. What followed wasn't a very pretty period in France's history. Unfortunately, the intentionally uneducated rural poor know nothing about the French Revolution.

My missus is red to the core as are most Issan folk. Not because they are stupid, ill educated and unthinking morons ...no...because they despise everything that the Bangkok wealthy and Amart stand for. I think it was in the late 50's that the Issan dialect was banned from schools... so English is actually their 3rd language. The wealthy in Bangkok send their children to international schools whilst ALL previous governments have purposely put in place practices which disenfranchise the rural poor from a good education. Keep them in their place where they belong ! ... a case in point is the convoluted written languge..poor old Somchai working in the paddy from dawn to dusk has little time left after mastering Thai to explore any other educational routes. The Thai culture of patronage, feudalism, face and respecting a Poo Yai (irrespective of how they got their wealth... I'm thinking Suthep here)... all comes together to explain why the rural poor will take a chance on the Thaksin regime.... He can walk with the people... Abhisit? I think not. So to all you posters who say that Thaksin just 'bought' the votes .. you are being stupid beyond belief. If someone is going to give them 200 B ... they will take it...even from the Democrats...THEN .. go and vote for who they want anyway. The real problem is that the Democrats have consistently shown to be incapable as a strong opposition, as a consequence we have the so called 'democratic dictatorship', this, together with a piss weak judicial system with no real checks and balances and we have what is modern Thailand.

[Spare]

My missus is red to the core as are most Issan folk. Not because they are stupid, ill educated and unthinking morons ...no...because they despise everything that the Bangkok wealthy and Amart stand for. I think it was in the late 50's that the Issan dialect was banned from schools... so English is actually their 3rd language. The wealthy in Bangkok send their children to international schools whilst ALL previous governments have purposely put in place practices which disenfranchise the rural poor from a good education. Keep them in their place where they belong ! ... a case in point is the convoluted written languge..poor old Somchai working in the paddy from dawn to dusk has little time left after mastering Thai to explore any other educational routes. The Thai culture of patronage, feudalism, face and respecting a Poo Yai (irrespective of how they got their wealth... I'm thinking Suthep here)... all comes together to explain why the rural poor will take a chance on the Thaksin regime.... He can walk with the people... Abhisit? I think not. So to all you posters who say that Thaksin just 'bought' the votes .. you are being stupid beyond belief. If someone is going to give them 200 B ... they will take it...even from the Democrats...THEN .. go and vote for who they want anyway. The real problem is that the Democrats have consistently shown to be incapable as a strong opposition, as a consequence we have the so called 'democratic dictatorship', this, together with a piss weak judicial system with no real checks and balances and we have what is modern Thailand.

Making the assumption that everyone in Bangkok and everyone protesting are wealthy and amart is just as bad as assuming that everyone north of Bangkok is stupid, ill educated and unthinking morons.

Not everyone. But if you are making a general assumption, it is quite accurate.

For example:

All Icelandic are white is not correct. A general assumption that most Icelandic is white is quite accurate.

[Mosha]

Here we go again!! Another thread where posters are fighting each other about who are "the rightest of the right". Most of them sadly with limited knowledge of Thai society as a whole and even less when it comes to politics!! But good entertainment!!

May I suggest a solution to the political divide:

marieantoinetteexecute-a8b7aa02f3a17f0904724853bbfc83dc2b9c738a-s6-c30.jpg

Bye bye amart!!

With former-DPM/current-Labour Minister Chalerm due to test the mechanism, in just 8 days' time !

Hurry Up, chop chop !

Will it be on telly?

[GarryP]

"The Thai culture of patronage, feudalism, face and respecting a Poo Yai" is as endemic in the sticks as it is in the cities, if not more so. So hardly a valid argument for feeling ignored.

[DocN]

Hello, I will be travelling to Bangkok just after Christmas. Can I check with you guys who are locals, is it safe to travel say during weekdays or will the level escalate? Thank you for your replies. Traveller from Singapore.

Still as safe or unsafe as it always was.

At the moments, everything is easily avoided, if you just don't go there (the demonstrations)

[Roadman]

My missus is red to the core as are most Issan folk. Not because they are stupid, ill educated and unthinking morons ...no...because they despise everything that the Bangkok wealthy and Amart stand for. I think it was in the late 50's that the Issan dialect was banned from schools... so English is actually their 3rd language. The wealthy in Bangkok send their children to international schools whilst ALL previous governments have purposely put in place practices which disenfranchise the rural poor from a good education. Keep them in their place where they belong ! ... a case in point is the convoluted written languge..poor old Somchai working in the paddy from dawn to dusk has little time left after mastering Thai to explore any other educational routes. The Thai culture of patronage, feudalism, face and respecting a Poo Yai (irrespective of how they got their wealth... I'm thinking Suthep here)... all comes together to explain why the rural poor will take a chance on the Thaksin regime.... He can walk with the people... Abhisit? I think not. So to all you posters who say that Thaksin just 'bought' the votes .. you are being stupid beyond belief. If someone is going to give them 200 B ... they will take it...even from the Democrats...THEN .. go and vote for who they want anyway. The real problem is that the Democrats have consistently shown to be incapable as a strong opposition, as a consequence we have the so called 'democratic dictatorship', this, together with a piss weak judicial system with no real checks and balances and we have what is modern Thailand.

Holy jeez... I could not believe I was reading this.

And in your own opening words again...."My missus is red to the core as are most Issan folk. Not because they are stupid, ill educated and unthinking morons ...no...because they despise everything that the Bangkok wealthy and Amart stand for." and " whilst ALL previous governments have purposely put in place practices which disenfranchise the rural poor from a good education"

And Thaksin proxies have been in power for 11 of the last 14 years and the education system is still the primitive mess or worse than it was in the late 50's. Mean while the great champion of the Reds the new Amart the Shinawatra's have in the period that they have been back in power of 2 and a half years have had four different Ministers of Education, each having their turn at the trough.

I guess the irony in your statement will be over their dear little Red Isaan heads and more importantly presuming you have a western education yours. Wonderful thing that "despise". Who needs education when you have despise and the Shinawtra's.

The answer is not in any of them. Not only the the elite but all corrupt and incompetent be it Democrat or Shinawatra or Pheau Thai need cleaned out of politics. Until Isaan can wake up to that the education system will sit where it is now being routed by the latest pig at the trough.

Edited December 23, 2013 by Roadman

[DocN]

My missus is red to the core as are most Issan folk. Not because they are stupid, ill educated and unthinking morons ...no...because they despise everything that the Bangkok wealthy and Amart stand for. I think it was in the late 50's that the Issan dialect was banned from schools... so English is actually their 3rd language. The wealthy in Bangkok send their children to international schools whilst ALL previous governments have purposely put in place practices which disenfranchise the rural poor from a good education. Keep them in their place where they belong ! ... a case in point is the convoluted written languge..poor old Somchai working in the paddy from dawn to dusk has little time left after mastering Thai to explore any other educational routes. The Thai culture of patronage, feudalism, face and respecting a Poo Yai (irrespective of how they got their wealth... I'm thinking Suthep here)... all comes together to explain why the rural poor will take a chance on the Thaksin regime.... He can walk with the people... Abhisit? I think not. So to all you posters who say that Thaksin just 'bought' the votes .. you are being stupid beyond belief. If someone is going to give them 200 B ... they will take it...even from the Democrats...THEN .. go and vote for who they want anyway. The real problem is that the Democrats have consistently shown to be incapable as a strong opposition, as a consequence we have the so called 'democratic dictatorship', this, together with a piss weak judicial system with no real checks and balances and we have what is modern Thailand.

Making the assumption that everyone in Bangkok and everyone protesting are wealthy and amart is just as bad as assuming that everyone north of Bangkok is stupid, ill educated and unthinking morons.

Okay...and that is exactly the point: I know many, who walk in the protests and say" I don't like Suthep"- what they don't get is: as long as you walk his walk, cheer his speeches and don't walk out, when the mad man appears YOU ARE BACKING HIM UP!

And another point: they are not the elite, not the amart, agreed!

But they are a) backing their cause and b ) will be used by them and don't even know!

[spirit47]

My missus is red to the core as are most Issan folk. Not because they are stupid, ill educated and unthinking morons ...no...because they despise everything that the Bangkok wealthy and Amart stand for. I think it was in the late 50's that the Issan dialect was banned from schools... so English is actually their 3rd language. The wealthy in Bangkok send their children to international schools whilst ALL previous governments have purposely put in place practices which disenfranchise the rural poor from a good education. Keep them in their place where they belong ! ... a case in point is the convoluted written languge..poor old Somchai working in the paddy from dawn to dusk has little time left after mastering Thai to explore any other educational routes. The Thai culture of patronage, feudalism, face and respecting a Poo Yai (irrespective of how they got their wealth... I'm thinking Suthep here)... all comes together to explain why the rural poor will take a chance on the Thaksin regime.... He can walk with the people... Abhisit? I think not. So to all you posters who say that Thaksin just 'bought' the votes .. you are being stupid beyond belief. If someone is going to give them 200 B ... they will take it...even from the Democrats...THEN .. go and vote for who they want anyway. The real problem is that the Democrats have consistently shown to be incapable as a strong opposition, as a consequence we have the so called 'democratic dictatorship', this, together with a piss weak judicial system with no real checks and balances and we have what is modern Thailand.

Nice post, and when I ask red suporters in my family, they only have one argument: "We love Taksin".

I have to accept, but in the first time, I hear about Taksin, I think the same, what you think about posters, who say that he only buy votes: How stupid this people believe in a rich man, only use them...

So you can answer or not: Where comes his money from?

Ok, if anybody tell me he love "Taksin", its ok, but if he control the country, others have a right to opposite. And he was going to cut the rights of the Opposition. And by the way, on the Protestors side are a lot of Isaan people. I fear the hate, that coming from the reds, and thats what make Taksin dangerous for Thailand, he forces a civil war between North and South. Suthep will unit Thailand.

[harada]

HOT FLASH crowd number update 6,000,000.

[animatic]

My missus is red to the core as are most Issan folk. Not because they are stupid, ill educated and unthinking morons ...no...because they despise everything that the Bangkok wealthy and Amart stand for. I think it was in the late 50's that the Issan dialect was banned from schools... so English is actually their 3rd language. The wealthy in Bangkok send their children to international schools whilst ALL previous governments have purposely put in place practices which disenfranchise the rural poor from a good education. Keep them in their place where they belong ! ... a case in point is the convoluted written languge..poor old Somchai working in the paddy from dawn to dusk has little time left after mastering Thai to explore any other educational routes. The Thai culture of patronage, feudalism, face and respecting a Poo Yai (irrespective of how they got their wealth... I'm thinking Suthep here)... all comes together to explain why the rural poor will take a chance on the Thaksin regime.... He can walk with the people... Abhisit? I think not. So to all you posters who say that Thaksin just 'bought' the votes .. you are being stupid beyond belief. If someone is going to give them 200 B ... they will take it...even from the Democrats...THEN .. go and vote for who they want anyway. The real problem is that the Democrats have consistently shown to be incapable as a strong opposition, as a consequence we have the so called 'democratic dictatorship', this, together with a piss weak judicial system with no real checks and balances and we have what is modern Thailand.

Good post, but what happens when the farmers don't get paid for their rice? Who do they turn to then?

Or as aptly; Who do they turn on...

[animatic]

Amazing the Perception Management tries going on lately.

Almost any tack that will drag a few more unsuspecting gullibles

off to join a 'forceful voice' is deemed good work done for the liege lords team.

And yet the pictures don't show the telltale signs of photoshop in most cases,

but that is anathema to the bosses interests; shoot it down, shoot it down,

maybe there are enough gullible sods to cause a trend. Doubtful. But it's a living.

[whybother]

My missus is red to the core as are most Issan folk. Not because they are stupid, ill educated and unthinking morons ...no...because they despise everything that the Bangkok wealthy and Amart stand for. I think it was in the late 50's that the Issan dialect was banned from schools... so English is actually their 3rd language. The wealthy in Bangkok send their children to international schools whilst ALL previous governments have purposely put in place practices which disenfranchise the rural poor from a good education. Keep them in their place where they belong ! ... a case in point is the convoluted written languge..poor old Somchai working in the paddy from dawn to dusk has little time left after mastering Thai to explore any other educational routes. The Thai culture of patronage, feudalism, face and respecting a Poo Yai (irrespective of how they got their wealth... I'm thinking Suthep here)... all comes together to explain why the rural poor will take a chance on the Thaksin regime.... He can walk with the people... Abhisit? I think not. So to all you posters who say that Thaksin just 'bought' the votes .. you are being stupid beyond belief. If someone is going to give them 200 B ... they will take it...even from the Democrats...THEN .. go and vote for who they want anyway. The real problem is that the Democrats have consistently shown to be incapable as a strong opposition, as a consequence we have the so called 'democratic dictatorship', this, together with a piss weak judicial system with no real checks and balances and we have what is modern Thailand.

Making the assumption that everyone in Bangkok and everyone protesting are wealthy and amart is just as bad as assuming that everyone north of Bangkok is stupid, ill educated and unthinking morons.

Okay...and that is exactly the point: I know many, who walk in the protests and say" I don't like Suthep"- what they don't get is: as long as you walk his walk, cheer his speeches and don't walk out, when the mad man appears YOU ARE BACKING HIM UP!

And another point: they are not the elite, not the amart, agreed!

But they are a) backing their cause and b ) will be used by them and don't even know!

Ditto for anyone supporting red shirts, and therefore supporting Thaksin.

[SOTIRIOS]

...that she just ran away as far as possible is how she has 'run' the country all along......

....(.....is it any surprise.....zero experience...just a name....and an agenda that has nothing to do with actually improving the country,,,in any way...)

[HerIndoors]

My missus is red to the core as are most Issan folk. Not because they are stupid, ill educated and unthinking morons ...no...because they despise everything that the Bangkok wealthy and Amart stand for. I think it was in the late 50's that the Issan dialect was banned from schools... so English is actually their 3rd language. The wealthy in Bangkok send their children to international schools whilst ALL previous governments have purposely put in place practices which disenfranchise the rural poor from a good education. Keep them in their place where they belong ! ... a case in point is the convoluted written languge..poor old Somchai working in the paddy from dawn to dusk has little time left after mastering Thai to explore any other educational routes. The Thai culture of patronage, feudalism, face and respecting a Poo Yai (irrespective of how they got their wealth... I'm thinking Suthep here)... all comes together to explain why the rural poor will take a chance on the Thaksin regime.... He can walk with the people... Abhisit? I think not. So to all you posters who say that Thaksin just 'bought' the votes .. you are being stupid beyond belief. If someone is going to give them 200 B ... they will take it...even from the Democrats...THEN .. go and vote for who they want anyway. The real problem is that the Democrats have consistently shown to be incapable as a strong opposition, as a consequence we have the so called 'democratic dictatorship', this, together with a piss weak judicial system with no real checks and balances and we have what is modern Thailand.

Making the assumption that everyone in Bangkok and everyone protesting are wealthy and amart is just as bad as assuming that everyone north of Bangkok is stupid, ill educated and unthinking morons.

Okay...and that is exactly the point: I know many, who walk in the protests and say" I don't like Suthep"- what they don't get is: as long as you walk his walk, cheer his speeches and don't walk out, when the mad man appears YOU ARE BACKING HIM UP!

And another point: they are not the elite, not the amart, agreed!

But they are a) backing their cause and b ) will be used by them and don't even know!

Yep..they are all being used...just the New Amart v the Old Amart. Don't think for a moment that Thaksin has the interests of the country at heart..nor do the Democrats. My point is that Thai culture supports these types of 'tribal' allegiances.

But heh..it's their country to with as they please.

[steveromagnino]

My missus is red to the core as are most Issan folk. Not because they are stupid, ill educated and unthinking morons ...no...because they despise everything that the Bangkok wealthy and Amart stand for. I think it was in the late 50's that the Issan dialect was banned from schools... so English is actually their 3rd language.

So to all you posters who say that Thaksin just 'bought' the votes .. you are being stupid beyond belief.

Out of interest, which province?

Almost all Isaan provinces have continued to elect the same scumbags, year in year out for 20+ years, since they got the right to vote post 1992. The party name changes, the promises change, but the family name of who they vote for does not. To actually choose a candidate would require confidence that your vote was cast and could not be seen by someone else (unlikely in rural Thailand), a solid understanding of what you are voting for (or against) - impossible in today's environment, an actual valid choice - difficult when all parties are basically offering much the same thing (popularism) so you go with the one you like the most and the one you know, even if that's the bloke/woman who has skimmed most of the money that should have gone to schools, roads, infrastructure and rooks you on money loans, lottery, retail and rice milling in the area.

The only difference, is now they vote for part of a whole, (PT) rather than an isolated godfather/clan. You will note the language: Thaksin "gave" them 30b healthcare; an airport; OTOP; village funds etc; there is a fundamental struggle to understand (and I know this from doing research for a political party) in both rural and urban Thailand, when a government gives something, who is actually paying for it and what it is actually costing.

If ANYONE should be accused of being an amartaya, it should be the very clans that each province/zone the Isaan people keep choosing, year in year out, to elect. Those godfather clans are for the most part, the ones directly responsible for ensuring that the people in their area are kept in their place, far more than this idiotic claim that it is some faceless powerful people in Bangkok. When the garlic farmers were screwed with the China FTA, when all of Thai rice farmers will eventually suffer massively when the country runs out of money to keep paying them to produce rotting landfill, when the chicken flu crisis kicked in wiping out the industry.....who suffered and who won? Oh most certainly the farmers suffered. But who didn't? The large associated companies with a direct connection to the government. Whose relationships work on both sides of the house. And the various godfathers, who make their money on the government infrastructure projects which should really be a benefit to all Thais, not just them.

As for buying his way to victory, it is clear that Thaksin bought his way to victory multiple times, he didn't need to focus on paying for the end vote. He instead bought the right candidates, using transfer fees. They delivered victories where he needed them. That's all a matter of public record and not really up for debate. He's doing it again for the next election.

You can read about exactly how Thaksin won in 2001 on a platform of "Think new do new", but in fact the politicians representing Isaan it is hard to imagine a more innappropriate name; relative to Bangkok TRT clearly placed their faith in just buying candidates either from other parties or from local politics - this one in English - you can check out some of the work of Duncan McCargo, the bits that aren't banned here as well as Baker et al:

http://robinlea.com/pub/JCA-Thailand-the_good_coup/05-The_thai_rak_thai_party_and_elections_in_north-eastern_thailand.html

Looking at 2005, it is clear that TRT increased its vote mostly by buying up politicians from other parties; i.e. the MOST prostitute like candidates were how they increased their share of the total vote to get the landslide victory (from the same source):

"One way to locate the sources of TRTs success in the 2005 election is to look at its new MPs. If we take a close look at the new TRT MPs for Isan we find that the majority of them were former MPs from other political parties. 41 of them came from those political parties that merged with TRT after the 2001 general election: NAP (16), CPP (14) and Seri Tham party (11). Five defected from CTP and one from the Democrats. Only 8 were newcomers and all of these were local politicians or relatives of MPs. The number of the TRT MPs increased mainly because it sucked MPs from other parties. Since both these new MPs and the re-elected TRT MPs were all old-style politicians, their success surely would have been based, in part, on money power and the political patronage they had nurtured for years."

How many times do we see the red shirts speaking out against this rampant raping and pillaging which is ongoing in EVERY Isaan province on a daily basis by their representatives? not many. if any.

Fat chance, those instigators of the corruption are the very people the red shirts are choosing at the polls!

Perhaps you should discuss this point with your wife; I will guess she is from the same roots as my family (poor illiterate rice farmers). Our difference is I believe that politicians are elected to serve us, not to 'give us stuff'.

Each person in a democracy is allowed to keep voting in the same morons and no doubt they will given the sorry state of Thai politics at the moment.

I don't personally place any real faith in a Chinese monopolist walking around in a Fendi robe with poor people as proof he knows how to connect to the poor, or worse still, her sister who has zero credentials to run a country who is backed up by the icecream gang and a guy who flaunted the law hiding his son to escape a murder charge - in fact its hard to think of people more suited to the title 'amartaya' than this lot.

[Roadman]

Excellent post just above steveromagnino.

Edited December 23, 2013 by Roadman

[metisdead]

An inflammatory insulting post has been removed

[Thai at Heart]

It becomes more and more a Thai soap opera, with bad actors. On one side a PM remote controlled but legally appointed and on the other side a corrupt politician with personnel hate towards TS claiming that he speaks for the Thai population. If this would be the case why not facing the election and than with a democrat lead government all the changes could be implemented. He can't agree to that because he knows he would loose the election. Now he wants to block the election and ensure that nobody goes for voting taking away the basic right of each Thai to express their will. What is wrong with the people that they don't understand that on the end it could only mean a total split of the Thai society, ideas of unelected government different voting rights for different classes of Thai people is far from Democracy.

Perhaps the people are tired of being ruled by a self exiled criminal. As long as Yingluck stays, the police general stays, Tarit stays and the cabinet has a hard time "trying to balance how much influence Thaksin should have" the people will not be happy, and i don't blame them. If they quit i would think that people would leave the streets, return to their homes, but the man in Dubai can't spell lose.

I think in general the people might be getting a little tired that the politicians think they are ruling over the people.

Governments govern. Quite apt considering that Suthep wants a council to rule over the people, and most politicians don't see much need to listen to the electorate.

Rulers rule.. Governments govern. A biiiig difference.

[animatic]

My missus is red to the core as are most Issan folk. Not because they are stupid, ill educated and unthinking morons ...no...because they despise everything that the Bangkok wealthy and Amart stand for. I think it was in the late 50's that the Issan dialect was banned from schools... so English is actually their 3rd language.

So to all you posters who say that Thaksin just 'bought' the votes .. you are being stupid beyond belief.

Out of interest, which province?

Almost all Isaan provinces have continued to elect the same scumbags, year in year out for 20+ years, since they got the right to vote post 1992. The party name changes, the promises change, but the family name of who they vote for does not. To actually choose a candidate would require confidence that your vote was cast and could not be seen by someone else (unlikely in rural Thailand), a solid understanding of what you are voting for (or against) - impossible in today's environment, an actual valid choice - difficult when all parties are basically offering much the same thing (popularism) so you go with the one you like the most and the one you know, even if that's the bloke/woman who has skimmed most of the money that should have gone to schools, roads, infrastructure and rooks you on money loans, lottery, retail and rice milling in the area.

The only difference, is now they vote for part of a whole, (PT) rather than an isolated godfather/clan. You will note the language: Thaksin "gave" them 30b healthcare; an airport; OTOP; village funds etc; there is a fundamental struggle to understand (and I know this from doing research for a political party) in both rural and urban Thailand, when a government gives something, who is actually paying for it and what it is actually costing.

If ANYONE should be accused of being an amartaya, it should be the very clans that each province/zone the Isaan people keep choosing, year in year out, to elect. Those godfather clans are for the most part, the ones directly responsible for ensuring that the people in their area are kept in their place, far more than this idiotic claim that it is some faceless powerful people in Bangkok. When the garlic farmers were screwed with the China FTA, when all of Thai rice farmers will eventually suffer massively when the country runs out of money to keep paying them to produce rotting landfill, when the chicken flu crisis kicked in wiping out the industry.....who suffered and who won? Oh most certainly the farmers suffered. But who didn't? The large associated companies with a direct connection to the government. Whose relationships work on both sides of the house. And the various godfathers, who make their money on the government infrastructure projects which should really be a benefit to all Thais, not just them.

As for buying his way to victory, it is clear that Thaksin bought his way to victory multiple times, he didn't need to focus on paying for the end vote. He instead bought the right candidates, using transfer fees. They delivered victories where he needed them. That's all a matter of public record and not really up for debate. He's doing it again for the next election.

You can read about exactly how Thaksin won in 2001 on a platform of "Think new do new", but in fact the politicians representing Isaan it is hard to imagine a more innappropriate name; relative to Bangkok TRT clearly placed their faith in just buying candidates either from other parties or from local politics - this one in English - you can check out some of the work of Duncan McCargo, the bits that aren't banned here as well as Baker et al:

http://robinlea.com/pub/JCA-Thailand-the_good_coup/05-The_thai_rak_thai_party_and_elections_in_north-eastern_thailand.html

Looking at 2005, it is clear that TRT increased its vote mostly by buying up politicians from other parties; i.e. the MOST prostitute like candidates were how they increased their share of the total vote to get the landslide victory (from the same source):

"One way to locate the sources of TRTs success in the 2005 election is to look at its new MPs. If we take a close look at the new TRT MPs for Isan we find that the majority of them were former MPs from other political parties. 41 of them came from those political parties that merged with TRT after the 2001 general election: NAP (16), CPP (14) and Seri Tham party (11). Five defected from CTP and one from the Democrats. Only 8 were newcomers and all of these were local politicians or relatives of MPs. The number of the TRT MPs increased mainly because it sucked MPs from other parties. Since both these new MPs and the re-elected TRT MPs were all old-style politicians, their success surely would have been based, in part, on money power and the political patronage they had nurtured for years."

How many times do we see the red shirts speaking out against this rampant raping and pillaging which is ongoing in EVERY Isaan province on a daily basis by their representatives? not many. if any.

Fat chance, those instigators of the corruption are the very people the red shirts are choosing at the polls!

Perhaps you should discuss this point with your wife; I will guess she is from the same roots as my family (poor illiterate rice farmers). Our difference is I believe that politicians are elected to serve us, not to 'give us stuff'.

Each person in a democracy is allowed to keep voting in the same morons and no doubt they will given the sorry state of Thai politics at the moment.

I don't personally place any real faith in a Chinese monopolist walking around in a Fendi robe with poor people as proof he knows how to connect to the poor, or worse still, her sister who has zero credentials to run a country who is backed up by the icecream gang and a guy who flaunted the law hiding his son to escape a murder charge - in fact its hard to think of people more suited to the title 'amartaya' than this lot.

You don't post often,

but when you do it is ALWAYS the best post to come out in ages.

And based on solid knowledge and real experience.

I appreciate ALL your posts Kuhn Steve, as you know.

[Robby nz]

My missus is red to the core as are most Issan folk. Not because they are stupid, ill educated and unthinking morons ...no...because they despise everything that the Bangkok wealthy and Amart stand for. I think it was in the late 50's that the Issan dialect was banned from schools... so English is actually their 3rd language. The wealthy in Bangkok send their children to international schools whilst ALL previous governments have purposely put in place practices which disenfranchise the rural poor from a good education. Keep them in their place where they belong ! ... a case in point is the convoluted written languge..poor old Somchai working in the paddy from dawn to dusk has little time left after mastering Thai to explore any other educational routes. The Thai culture of patronage, feudalism, face and respecting a Poo Yai (irrespective of how they got their wealth... I'm thinking Suthep here)... all comes together to explain why the rural poor will take a chance on the Thaksin regime.... He can walk with the people... Abhisit? I think not. So to all you posters who say that Thaksin just 'bought' the votes .. you are being stupid beyond belief. If someone is going to give them 200 B ... they will take it...even from the Democrats...THEN .. go and vote for who they want anyway. The real problem is that the Democrats have consistently shown to be incapable as a strong opposition, as a consequence we have the so called 'democratic dictatorship', this, together with a piss weak judicial system with no real checks and balances and we have what is modern Thailand.

There is no doubt that education must be a key part in any reforms.

But do you realize that the only ones who have tried to do anything in that direction were the Dems in the brief time they were in power ?

They raised the age of free education and started to put reforms in place, reforms which were dumped in favor of tablets when PT took over.

You seem to think that all the poor are rural, well look around any city and you will see that there are plenty of poor around, probably a vast majority, you see them with their small stalls, sweeping the roads, picking up empty bottles scraping a living any way they can with many living in hovels and some even under bridges.

That the wealthy and some of the not so wealthy can send their kids overseas to get a good education is what is keeping this country going.

These kids will grow up to be the leaders in business and society and because of their experience with other countries will be able to see the faults in Thai society.

The country needs those kids as without them it will stay insular and never be able to move ahead.

Sure we could both fill pages with whats wrong with education in this country, but not right here.

As for Thaksin walking with the people ; when did he ever do that ?

Take 2010 for instance, in his phone ins he said that 'as soon as the first shot is fired I will be there to lead you', what happened, did he come to lead them, no way.

Yet we now see Suthep, and Abhsit at times, walking with the people, leading from the front.

In the past two years the Dems have had no chance to be an effective opposition, they have been ignored, refused the right to speak and even laughed at when they exposed corruption in the rice scheme at the 2 censure motions.

" as a consequence we have the so called 'democratic dictatorship', this, together with a piss weak judicial system with no real checks and balances and we have what is modern Thailand. "

Couldn't agree more, however look how PT have been trying to dismantle the checks and balances by putting their own people in top positions and cutting budgets even refusing to accept the decision of the Constitution Court, all taking the country closer to a 'democratic dictatorship' as you call it.

[MJP]

My missus is red to the core as are most Issan folk. Not because they are stupid, ill educated and unthinking morons ...no...because they despise everything that the Bangkok wealthy and Amart stand for. I think it was in the late 50's that the Issan dialect was banned from schools... so English is actually their 3rd language.

So to all you posters who say that Thaksin just 'bought' the votes .. you are being stupid beyond belief.

Out of interest, which province?

Almost all Isaan provinces have continued to elect the same scumbags, year in year out for 20+ years, since they got the right to vote post 1992. The party name changes, the promises change, but the family name of who they vote for does not. To actually choose a candidate would require confidence that your vote was cast and could not be seen by someone else (unlikely in rural Thailand), a solid understanding of what you are voting for (or against) - impossible in today's environment, an actual valid choice - difficult when all parties are basically offering much the same thing (popularism) so you go with the one you like the most and the one you know, even if that's the bloke/woman who has skimmed most of the money that should have gone to schools, roads, infrastructure and rooks you on money loans, lottery, retail and rice milling in the area.

The only difference, is now they vote for part of a whole, (PT) rather than an isolated godfather/clan. You will note the language: Thaksin "gave" them 30b healthcare; an airport; OTOP; village funds etc; there is a fundamental struggle to understand (and I know this from doing research for a political party) in both rural and urban Thailand, when a government gives something, who is actually paying for it and what it is actually costing.

If ANYONE should be accused of being an amartaya, it should be the very clans that each province/zone the Isaan people keep choosing, year in year out, to elect. Those godfather clans are for the most part, the ones directly responsible for ensuring that the people in their area are kept in their place, far more than this idiotic claim that it is some faceless powerful people in Bangkok. When the garlic farmers were screwed with the China FTA, when all of Thai rice farmers will eventually suffer massively when the country runs out of money to keep paying them to produce rotting landfill, when the chicken flu crisis kicked in wiping out the industry.....who suffered and who won? Oh most certainly the farmers suffered. But who didn't? The large associated companies with a direct connection to the government. Whose relationships work on both sides of the house. And the various godfathers, who make their money on the government infrastructure projects which should really be a benefit to all Thais, not just them.

As for buying his way to victory, it is clear that Thaksin bought his way to victory multiple times, he didn't need to focus on paying for the end vote. He instead bought the right candidates, using transfer fees. They delivered victories where he needed them. That's all a matter of public record and not really up for debate. He's doing it again for the next election.

You can read about exactly how Thaksin won in 2001 on a platform of "Think new do new", but in fact the politicians representing Isaan it is hard to imagine a more innappropriate name; relative to Bangkok TRT clearly placed their faith in just buying candidates either from other parties or from local politics - this one in English - you can check out some of the work of Duncan McCargo, the bits that aren't banned here as well as Baker et al:

http://robinlea.com/pub/JCA-Thailand-the_good_coup/05-The_thai_rak_thai_party_and_elections_in_north-eastern_thailand.html

Looking at 2005, it is clear that TRT increased its vote mostly by buying up politicians from other parties; i.e. the MOST prostitute like candidates were how they increased their share of the total vote to get the landslide victory (from the same source):

"One way to locate the sources of TRTs success in the 2005 election is to look at its new MPs. If we take a close look at the new TRT MPs for Isan we find that the majority of them were former MPs from other political parties. 41 of them came from those political parties that merged with TRT after the 2001 general election: NAP (16), CPP (14) and Seri Tham party (11). Five defected from CTP and one from the Democrats. Only 8 were newcomers and all of these were local politicians or relatives of MPs. The number of the TRT MPs increased mainly because it sucked MPs from other parties. Since both these new MPs and the re-elected TRT MPs were all old-style politicians, their success surely would have been based, in part, on money power and the political patronage they had nurtured for years."

How many times do we see the red shirts speaking out against this rampant raping and pillaging which is ongoing in EVERY Isaan province on a daily basis by their representatives? not many. if any.

Fat chance, those instigators of the corruption are the very people the red shirts are choosing at the polls!

Perhaps you should discuss this point with your wife; I will guess she is from the same roots as my family (poor illiterate rice farmers). Our difference is I believe that politicians are elected to serve us, not to 'give us stuff'.

Each person in a democracy is allowed to keep voting in the same morons and no doubt they will given the sorry state of Thai politics at the moment.

I don't personally place any real faith in a Chinese monopolist walking around in a Fendi robe with poor people as proof he knows how to connect to the poor, or worse still, her sister who has zero credentials to run a country who is backed up by the icecream gang and a guy who flaunted the law hiding his son to escape a murder charge - in fact its hard to think of people more suited to the title 'amartaya' than this lot.

You don't post often,

but when you do it is ALWAYS the best post to come out in ages.

And based on solid knowledge and real experience.

I appreciate ALL your posts Kuhn Steve, as you know.

Seconded. It's a proper old reality check.

[benny1616]

hahaha, overun by a huge protest with tens of thousends makes me really laughing. everybody can see the number of the supporters from this corrupt, criminal and unscuplelous politicans suthep and abhisit and so on goes everytime more down and down. they know exactly why this so called opposition will boycott the coming elections. its because they will loose again :-D

[khunken]

My missus is red to the core as are most Issan folk. Not because they are stupid, ill educated and unthinking morons ...no...because they despise everything that the Bangkok wealthy and Amart stand for. I think it was in the late 50's that the Issan dialect was banned from schools... so English is actually their 3rd language.

So to all you posters who say that Thaksin just 'bought' the votes .. you are being stupid beyond belief.

Out of interest, which province?

Almost all Isaan provinces have continued to elect the same scumbags, year in year out for 20+ years, since they got the right to vote post 1992. The party name changes, the promises change, but the family name of who they vote for does not. To actually choose a candidate would require confidence that your vote was cast and could not be seen by someone else (unlikely in rural Thailand), a solid understanding of what you are voting for (or against) - impossible in today's environment, an actual valid choice - difficult when all parties are basically offering much the same thing (popularism) so you go with the one you like the most and the one you know, even if that's the bloke/woman who has skimmed most of the money that should have gone to schools, roads, infrastructure and rooks you on money loans, lottery, retail and rice milling in the area.

The only difference, is now they vote for part of a whole, (PT) rather than an isolated godfather/clan. You will note the language: Thaksin "gave" them 30b healthcare; an airport; OTOP; village funds etc; there is a fundamental struggle to understand (and I know this from doing research for a political party) in both rural and urban Thailand, when a government gives something, who is actually paying for it and what it is actually costing.

If ANYONE should be accused of being an amartaya, it should be the very clans that each province/zone the Isaan people keep choosing, year in year out, to elect. Those godfather clans are for the most part, the ones directly responsible for ensuring that the people in their area are kept in their place, far more than this idiotic claim that it is some faceless powerful people in Bangkok. When the garlic farmers were screwed with the China FTA, when all of Thai rice farmers will eventually suffer massively when the country runs out of money to keep paying them to produce rotting landfill, when the chicken flu crisis kicked in wiping out the industry.....who suffered and who won? Oh most certainly the farmers suffered. But who didn't? The large associated companies with a direct connection to the government. Whose relationships work on both sides of the house. And the various godfathers, who make their money on the government infrastructure projects which should really be a benefit to all Thais, not just them.

As for buying his way to victory, it is clear that Thaksin bought his way to victory multiple times, he didn't need to focus on paying for the end vote. He instead bought the right candidates, using transfer fees. They delivered victories where he needed them. That's all a matter of public record and not really up for debate. He's doing it again for the next election.

You can read about exactly how Thaksin won in 2001 on a platform of "Think new do new", but in fact the politicians representing Isaan it is hard to imagine a more innappropriate name; relative to Bangkok TRT clearly placed their faith in just buying candidates either from other parties or from local politics - this one in English - you can check out some of the work of Duncan McCargo, the bits that aren't banned here as well as Baker et al:

http://robinlea.com/pub/JCA-Thailand-the_good_coup/05-The_thai_rak_thai_party_and_elections_in_north-eastern_thailand.html

Looking at 2005, it is clear that TRT increased its vote mostly by buying up politicians from other parties; i.e. the MOST prostitute like candidates were how they increased their share of the total vote to get the landslide victory (from the same source):

"One way to locate the sources of TRTs success in the 2005 election is to look at its new MPs. If we take a close look at the new TRT MPs for Isan we find that the majority of them were former MPs from other political parties. 41 of them came from those political parties that merged with TRT after the 2001 general election: NAP (16), CPP (14) and Seri Tham party (11). Five defected from CTP and one from the Democrats. Only 8 were newcomers and all of these were local politicians or relatives of MPs. The number of the TRT MPs increased mainly because it sucked MPs from other parties. Since both these new MPs and the re-elected TRT MPs were all old-style politicians, their success surely would have been based, in part, on money power and the political patronage they had nurtured for years."

How many times do we see the red shirts speaking out against this rampant raping and pillaging which is ongoing in EVERY Isaan province on a daily basis by their representatives? not many. if any.

Fat chance, those instigators of the corruption are the very people the red shirts are choosing at the polls!

Perhaps you should discuss this point with your wife; I will guess she is from the same roots as my family (poor illiterate rice farmers). Our difference is I believe that politicians are elected to serve us, not to 'give us stuff'.

Each person in a democracy is allowed to keep voting in the same morons and no doubt they will given the sorry state of Thai politics at the moment.

I don't personally place any real faith in a Chinese monopolist walking around in a Fendi robe with poor people as proof he knows how to connect to the poor, or worse still, her sister who has zero credentials to run a country who is backed up by the icecream gang and a guy who flaunted the law hiding his son to escape a murder charge - in fact its hard to think of people more suited to the title 'amartaya' than this lot.

You don't post often,

but when you do it is ALWAYS the best post to come out in ages.

And based on solid knowledge and real experience.

I appreciate ALL your posts Kuhn Steve, as you know.

Totally agree.

[DocN]

My missus is red to the core as are most Issan folk. Not because they are stupid, ill educated and unthinking morons ...no...because they despise everything that the Bangkok wealthy and Amart stand for. I think it was in the late 50's that the Issan dialect was banned from schools... so English is actually their 3rd language. The wealthy in Bangkok send their children to international schools whilst ALL previous governments have purposely put in place practices which disenfranchise the rural poor from a good education. Keep them in their place where they belong ! ... a case in point is the convoluted written languge..poor old Somchai working in the paddy from dawn to dusk has little time left after mastering Thai to explore any other educational routes. The Thai culture of patronage, feudalism, face and respecting a Poo Yai (irrespective of how they got their wealth... I'm thinking Suthep here)... all comes together to explain why the rural poor will take a chance on the Thaksin regime.... He can walk with the people... Abhisit? I think not. So to all you posters who say that Thaksin just 'bought' the votes .. you are being stupid beyond belief. If someone is going to give them 200 B ... they will take it...even from the Democrats...THEN .. go and vote for who they want anyway. The real problem is that the Democrats have consistently shown to be incapable as a strong opposition, as a consequence we have the so called 'democratic dictatorship', this, together with a piss weak judicial system with no real checks and balances and we have what is modern Thailand.

Making the assumption that everyone in Bangkok and everyone protesting are wealthy and amart is just as bad as assuming that everyone north of Bangkok is stupid, ill educated and unthinking morons.

Okay...and that is exactly the point: I know many, who walk in the protests and say" I don't like Suthep"- what they don't get is: as long as you walk his walk, cheer his speeches and don't walk out, when the mad man appears YOU ARE BACKING HIM UP!

And another point: they are not the elite, not the amart, agreed!

But they are a) backing their cause and b ) will be used by them and don't even know!

Ditto for anyone supporting red shirts, and therefore supporting Thaksin.

I didn't say anything different...only that was just not the question here!

[whybother]

This just in from the American embassy site:

Good news. The US embassy just sent a list of 14 Democrats, including Suthep to blacklisted them to enter USA territory to the US government:

Here is the name of the 14

1- Suthep Tuaksuban

2- Sathit Wongnantoei

3- Chumpon Julasai

4- Putapong Wunnakam

5- Issara Somchai

6- Witthaya Keowpraedai

7- Tawon Sengniam

8- Nattaporn Tepsuwan

9- Ekkana Prompan

10- Ms Anchalee Parirak

11- Nittitorn Lamlua

12- Uthai Yodmanee

13- Samdin Leurdbook

14- General Preecha Yiemsuphan

Or not:

US Embassy Bangkok dismisses anti-govt leaders blacklist reports

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/691349-us-embassy-bangkok-dismisses-anti-govt-leaders-blacklist-reports/