Organic Farming Studies Are Being Carried Out In The Northeast

[Jai Dee]

Organic farming studies are being carried out in the Northeast

The Agricultural Economics Office (AEO) is gathering data on organic farm products and their production costs in 5 northeastern provinces.

AEO director Udom Sitthidej (อุดม สิทธิเดช) said the studies interview 250 farmers now growing organic rice and vegetables in Nakhon Ratchasima, Surin, Buri Ram, Si Sa Ket and Ubon Ratchathani.

Mr. Udom said the objectives are to compare the production costs of organic and chemical farming and survey the people’s attitude toward organic products.

The cabinet has declared the promotion of organic farming a national agenda.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 17 May 2006

[Korat Correct]

ORGANIC FARMING IS PURE DECADENCE.

The UK Soil Association is a company and a business. It promotes its product and makes money.

The Thai Government should have nothing to do with universities who advocate providing less food from Thai-land. Less than 5% of UK food is Organic and I don't know any inorganic food,and I don't want bugs and slugs in my vegetables.

If this craze takes off more Thai people will get more hungry, and the peasants will not get rich quick. Organic farming is not cost effective on the small farming scale.

What Thailand needs to develop is crop rotation and cheap irrigation schemes. Less of the keeping cattle as status symbols and more converting ruminants into food.

Grow your own garden vegetables with household waste but don't buy animal manure from farmers who need it for their own production systems.

Water soluble nitrates,as urea and nitrogen fixing plants such as alph/alpha and clovers are preferred to using up the worlds minerals,but that is a different issue.

I feel qualified to comment since I retired from UK farming having begun in 1959.

[Korat Correct]

I understand the problem of the Thai peasant problem of getting his produce to market with a fair return.

Rice is about 5bht /kilo at the farm gate, due to over production and lack of market support by Government.

Diversification and better land utilisation as I suggested previously, but what IS needed are cooperatives and guaranteed prices.

To have a market you need buyers and sellers. What has happened is that similar to the UK. Too few buyers and too many sellers.

Government needs to set up Cooperative stations in all areas,to handle small amounts and set prices to encourage farmers to trade with the coop.

In the early days, Government financial support is needed,but as the process settles down, the Coop and market takes care of the peaks and troughs.

What Thailand doesn't need are the rice barons.

Thats what the Agriculture Minister needs to concentrate on the real problem rather than tinkering at the edges, supporting the "Organic" cause.

Not something TRT are renouned for.

[plachon]

I beg to differ Koratcorrect, no matter how long you were involved in UK farming. Thai and UK farming are v. different situations and outlooks, although like farmers everywhere, there are certain similarities, such as the producer often getting the shit end of the stick in terms of prices.

But without wanting to go into detail on the economic end of the argument, to claim that "Organic Farming is Pure Decadence" is pure ignorance, I'm afraid. Organic farming is what all farmers the world over were doing since the dawn of agriculture, and it was only since the mass exploitation of oil reserves and development of chemical fertiliser and pesticides in the early/mid-20th century that inorganic farming became the norm in the Industrialised countries. In the rest of the world, organic farming is still the norm and serves the land and people very well in most instances. No environmental crises or health problems, like has been the case in somany so-called "developed" countries. Why do you think the organic movement has taken off so successfully and rapidly in Britain, for example, during the past 2 decades?

So what if The Soil Association is run partly like a business? What's the problem with that? They've got staff to pay and overheads to cover, just like any other business. The fact that they promote organic products and make some money in the process is quite normal, i would have thought? They also assist farmers in convert to organic practices and lobby government to pay more attention to organic farming and the problems brought by non-organic farming. Is that an isssue with you?

I'm afraid all your points come out garbled and jumbled up and it is hard to make much sense from them. However, I do appreciate that you personally don't appreciate slugs and bugs in your food. That's ok, as it's your personal preference, and I guess you prefer to eat them pesticide laced instead? You've come to the right country for that. But you must also appreciate that many Thai people actually like to eat bugs, and aren't so squeamish as you (were you really a farmer?) and don't mind washing their veg before consumption. That's their perogative. But I doubt very much if Thai people want farangs who most likely can hardly speak two words of Thai, telling them what they "need" or "don't need" in terms of agricultural practices. There are enough Thais doing that already.

If you took a little more time to look and learn, rather than preach, you would find that many of the things you prescribe already exist here and in many cases, have failed dismally. So-called "cheap irrigation" beiung one of them. Govt. run and sanctioned Cooperatives being a second.

Organic farming is not some panacea in itself, but given the realities of dwindling oil supplies, environmental costs of overuse of pesticides and chemical fertiliser and growing health consciousness of consumers, not to promote greater awareness and use of organic techniques would be extremely imprudent by the govt. IMO.

[Korat Correct]

Plachon

I'll stand by what I said, and let readers judge your contribution.

I should clarify

I produced 40000kgs of red meat per year,plus bread making wheat and feed and malting barley in the past.

I reintroduced undersown rye to feed to sheep.

I have been invited to the House of Commons Agricultural Select Committee to contribute to the Beef Industry in the UK.

I gave evidence to the BSE committee, though did not have BSE on my farm

I was invited to sit on the Foot and Mouth Committee

Evidence of my submissions are in Hansard.

I have articles and letters in the Farmers Weekly and Farmers Guardian.

I recently had a meeting with three Associate Professors of Agricultural Economics at Khon Kaen University on the subject of "red meat production in Thailand"

I helped a Thai peasant farmer introduce an irrigation system to help him diversify in to maize, beans and chillie. He wouldn't agree with your argument. He bought a mineral compound as Potash and Phospates are as important as Nitrogen in plant health and growth.

I have visited live cattle markets in this area and the slaughter facilities near Korat to see the situation for myself

Are speaking from experience?

Edited May 22, 2006 by Korat Correct

[raslin]

Plachon

I'll stand by what I said, and let readers judge your contribution.

I should clarify

I produced 40000kgs of red meat per year,plus bread making wheat and feed and malting barley in the past.

I reintroduced undersown rye to feed to sheep.

I have been invited to the House of Commons Agricultural Select Committee to contribute to the Beef Industry in the UK.

I gave evidence to the BSE committee, though did not have BSE on my farm

I was invited to sit on the Foot and Mouth Committee

Evidence of my submissions are in Hansard.

I have articles and letters in the Farmers Weekly and Farmers Guardian.

I recently had a meeting with three Associate Professors of Agricultural Economics at Khon Kaen University on the subject of "red meat production in Thailand"

I helped a Thai peasant farmer introduce an irrigation system to help him diversify in to maize, beans and chillie. He wouldn't agree with your argument. He bought a mineral compound as Potash and Phospates are as important as Nitrogen in plant health and growth.

I have visited live cattle markets in this area and the slaughter facilities near Korat to see the situation for myself

Are speaking from experience?

Uk breadmaking wheat!! Was this for the sliced bread/french bread market?

[plachon]

I never really doubted that you were a farmer, but rather your absolutist and extreme judgement of organic farming. You basically dismissed it out of hand, as "pure decadence" whether for UK farming or Thai farming. That to me is ignorance and denial of reality.

Organic farming exists the world over, is economically viable the world over, and is a less environmentally damaging and more health-promoting form of agriculture than chemical-based farming with which you are familiar. The fact that chemical or non-organic forms of farming have become the norm in the "developed" countries is largely as a result of govt. subsidies which distorted the markets, both in terms of production and consumption. Now the effects of 50 years of subsidies and price distortions are starting to become apparent, environmental legislation is being tightened up at the same time as finite resources are starting to dwindle (especially oil), chemical hungry and polluting farmers are starting to feel the pinch, especially as subsidies are now starting to swing towards organic and other resource conserving forms of agriculture.

Organic agriculture is the future, not the past. Your style of energy-hungry agriculture is the past, not the future. This doesn't mean to say that all agriculture will be organic, as there is still a place for limited use of agrichemicals, and I am not against them per se. But they should only be used in moderation, where there is little or no external impact to the wider environment and consumer health. All things in moderation.

You say you started farming in 1959 right? I imagine you got some healthy govt. subsidies in your time for such things as hedge removal, fertliser, possibly even pesticide. Nothing like a bit of DDT, eh? The post-War years bred a brave New World feeling amongst British farmers, but it was a mirage right? Now Uk farming employs less than 2 % of the working population and has one of the highest suicide rates and losses of any job category, if the stats are to be believed. I can't blame you for wanting to retire to Thailand in that case. Did you pass on your farm to your son I wonder? Pretty bleak prospects being a farmer these days or so I hear, unless you own 5,000 acres of prime arable land.

One thing about organic farms is they employ a lot more people per unit of land area. They bring back jobs to the countryside and recover chemical-damaged land. They produce healthy food. I know you don't like bugs in your veg., but many people are not too keen on pesticide residues either. Still, it's your choice, but no need to tell Thai farmers what they "need", on the basis of working with one Thai farmer, visiting a few cattle markets and having strong opinions about organic farming.

[ayakiawe]

Hello Plachon I myself do doubt “korat correct” (more like Korat “pathetic” if you ask me) was a real farmer.

In actuality such ……… (Can’t print it sorry) are “miners” not farmers.

They extract from the Earth until there is nothing left to take. Raping the Earth until there is nothing to take is a high crime in my book.

They don’t give back like a real farmer does.

He is not a man either, more like a pathetic rip-off artist.

His techniques are relatively "new", toxic and thankfully are becoming passé.

Organic farming is the only future there is I am happy to report.

Thailand had organic farming here sense the beginning until recently and this helped create the wonderful Thai culture and people which sadly today we can only see remnants of due to the modern toxic food growing systems that are in place here mostly now.

Yep so they are miners (and polluters) not farmers.

I must give you credit for your responses though and am relieved this web site actually has a few thinkers and educated folks like yourself.

Thanks for holding up consciousness as there is few like yourself on the net.

The King of Thailand is a big proponent of organic agriculture and holds the consciousness of this understanding for the country to this day.

I wish more people would listen, study and follow his examples here before it’s too late.

[Korat Correct]

Organic farming IS pure decadence. it is immoral and its produce is bought by people just for the pleasure of having paid more in the belief it will be better for them and the environment.

I do not like to see people being conned.

The perception is that organic is more healthy,but this is not the case.There is little evidence to suggest that organic fruit and vegetables are any healthier than conventional produce. In fact some forms of organic farming may introduce natural toxins into consumers food.

In blind tests most can't tell the difference between organic and conventionally grown food,though people say organic tastes better. Yes,if it is fresh,or from your own garden. Furthermore 70% of organic food is imported and is not "fresh" and since most is imported by air,it is not exactly environmentally friendly.

Less than 2% of European farming is organic and it is not going to be a panacea for the future of food production and the costly fraud that is organic foods main contribution will be to sustain poverty and malnutrition.

Organic farming is a billion pound industry,promoted by a company that makes a profit out of promoting it, and which the Food Standards Agency,set up to safeguard our welfare,refuses to endorse the claims made for it.It said said" On the basis of current evidence organic food is not significantly different in terms of food safety and nutrition from food produced conventionally.

It is promoted by a stream of propaganda from the green lobby groups and is subsidised by government.

Supermarkets like it because premium prices increase profits.

To question claims by the organic lobby(and some contributors here) is not just akin to doubting the virtues of motherhood,but to reveal indifference to the poisoning of the nation and the fate of the planet.There argument is based on the belief that nature knows best and science is dangerous.

Our health is threatened not by chemicals and GM crops but the eco fundamentalists and their crusade against intensive farming.

Of course by definition organic farming is meaningless as all food is organic.

When a complaint was made to the Advertising Agency that recruiting leaflets produced by the Soil Association made misleading statements,claiming that organic food tastes better,is healthier, and is better for the environment, the Authority found no evidence to support this claim and the leaflets were withdrawn.

In the days before intensive farming,when farmers did not use pesticides or artificial fertilizers,food supplies were constantly endangered through climatic and environmental fluctuations and crops were frequently lost to pests and disease.

Agriculture was associated with grinding poverty,intensive labour and low yield.

Thailands politicans should take serious note that the organic route spells disaster for their farmers who need crop diversification,farm Coops and guaranteed prices.

While there may be food surpluses in some areas,we need to treble food production in the next 50 years to feed 3 billion extra people and meet higher living standards at the same time.All the time we are facing increasing shortages of water and of good agricultural land.In many places the only way inefficient organic farmers can feed an expanding population is by cutting down more tropical forests.

The most telling indictment of organic farming is its inefficiency,its high costs and wasteful use of land.The facts cannot be seriously disputed; yields of most crops from organic farms are about 20-50% lower than from conventioal farming. That is why it costs more.

It is claimed that organic food is more natural and its reliance on natural chemicals makes it safer than food grown with the help of synthetics ones. This is nonsense.There is nothing wholesome about natural chemicals like ricin,aflatoxin or botulinum. There is little danger about synthetic chemicals like the sulphonamides that cure TB or the painkiller paracetamol.

We are told that pesticides residues harm us.As the Food Standard Agency has pointed out there is a disparity between public fears and the facts.

Dietary contributions to the cardiovascular disease and cancer probably account for more than 100,000 deaths a year,food poisoning for between 50-300. There are no known deaths from pesticide residues or GM foods.

To be concluded shortly.

[Korat Correct]

Conclusion

FACT

A cup of coffee contains natural carcinogens equal to at least a years worth of carcinogenic synthetic residues in the diet.

Tests showed that synthetic residues and natural chemical residues, such as organic pesticides are produced roughly equal amounts of carcinogens.

It is said that organic farming benefits wildlife. TRUE, many people become organic farmers for environmental reasons and achieve their aim.

However, studies show, and from personal experience as a farmer,that environmental effects depend on the style of management,NOT the farming system.

An integrated farm management system achieves the best results and has been sustaining modern agriculture for centuries.

What most benefits birds and wildlife is low-til farming,and permanent grass as opposed to ploughing regularly.

Organic farming depends on the plough which disturbs the soil ecology,releases more carbon dioxide,uses more fossil fuel and drives out nesting birds.

Indian biologist CJ Prakash says that organic farming's only contribution to sustainable agriculture will be "to sustain poverty and malnutrition"

Thailand should enter the "organic" movement with extreme caution and know where it will lead.

Plachon says my argument is "pure ignorance". He has been brainwashed and he is not the only one.He says all my points come out garbled and jumbled up and he calls me ignorant?

Sometimes the truth hurts Plachon but there is no need to be offensive by suggesting I got Govt support to destroy land, when only farmers in less favoured areas get support and many get nothing.Countryside Premium Schemes to manage grassland for birds, create ponds for wildlife and create new shelter belts were supported.

Ayaklawe says I am pathetic and insulting but I can live with that.

I am always ready to respond to intelligent debate but I think this reasoned and logical contribution will conclude my comment on the subject and I hand over the stage to the real actors.

[plachon]

I am always ready to respond to intelligent debate but I think this reasoned and logical contribution will conclude my comment on the subject and I hand over the stage to the real actors.

And who are the "real actors", if I might be so bold?

While you may be concluded, I'm not, so here goes a few more arguments for organic farming IN THAILAND.

Thailand has both organic and non-organic farmers. The organic farmers may be so by accident or design. The ones who are by accident are mostly those living in remote areas, not fully opened up to market economics practising semi-subsistence farming and are in quite a minority. The vast majority are using agri-chemicals to a greater or lesser extent. If you stay here any length of time, or do your research (away from the soft-handed, theoretically-speaking professors in the Universities preferably) in the fields and farms, you will find that the Thai farmer is generally speaking in-debt, lacking effective extension services, often just following his neighbour or what the govt. happens to be promoting that week (e.g. rubber plantations in the part of Isaan at the moment), and has little regard to his/her own health, safety or the environment, let alone the health of the consumer. "If the plants grow and the bugs die, then use it", would be a general maxim for a large section of Thai farmers these days.

A lot are also sick, dying or dead already from overuse or misuse of pesticides. FACT. Thailand has a pretty poor reputation as being a dumping ground for "Dirty Dozen" type pesticides, and the use of highly dangerous pesticides like Folidon (Parathion methyl), Tamaron (highly toxic organophospate cholinesterase inhibitor) and Lennate (methomyl) are commonplace amongst small farmers. There are reguarly articles or newsclips in the Bangkok Post or Nation covering the issue of pesticide poisoning in Thailand, and several NGO's have websites relating to the dangers, issues involved and alternative farming practices). Thailand is also a favoured testing ground of agribusiness keen on promoting GMO crops, with the famous case of GM papaya still sending ripples around the country, region and further afield (Germany threatened to cease imports of all Thai fruit products, if it found GM contamination in Thai papaya). Hence, as you can imagine, irresponsible inorganic and GMO-based farming can be not only dangerous to the environment and health of farmers/consumers, but can also lead to withdrawal of valuable markets. I wouldn't call the desire by the government to promote organic farming "decadent", but an imperative if it is to stay competitive and sustainable into the future, especially with rising oil prices.

But, as you still seem to think that the arguments I present are without basis, (and I could give you many examples of successful British and Thai organic farms if I chose to), I happened to read the following article today from the Grauniad (the British farmer's favourite read! ), which disproves your line of reasoning for a case study in Belize, how organic and traditional farming is both viable for local farmers, it also is in increasing demand (thanks to decadent chocolate eaters in Europe and US ).

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/foodmonthly...1781908,00.html

Sorry if this debate is not intelligent enough for you, but then you are the one that thinks organic farming is "decadent" and "immoral". Try telling that to the Mayan cacao farmers or Surin jasmine rice farmers, using organic methods and doing better than their energy-hungry, resource destroying neighbours.

[username45]

Hi, It is interesting to read about the Organic farming projects for NE Thailand. Later this year I will be looking at getting an Organic fertiliser plant up and opperating in the area. My Australian partner Ken, an Organic agronomist, has been working in the organics field for more than a decade and has been developing a range of organic fertilisers that are the equivelant of any commecial fertiliser. We expect that a production plant in Isan would make the proposition extremely cost effective too. Regards, Hugh

[plachon]

Organic farming IS pure decadence. it is immoral and its produce is bought by people just for the pleasure of having paid more in the belief it will be better for them and the environment.

I do not like to see people being conned.

In the days before intensive farming,when farmers did not use pesticides or artificial fertilizers,food supplies were constantly endangered through climatic and environmental fluctuations and crops were frequently lost to pests and disease.

Agriculture was associated with grinding poverty,intensive labour and low yield.

Thailands politicans should take serious note that the organic route spells disaster for their farmers who need crop diversification,farm Coops and guaranteed prices."

There you go again telling Thailand's farmers what they "need". According to whom? According to a retired British farmer whose been to a few cattle markets and reckons he has the joint cased - is that it? Overnight experts, can't beat 'em. It's easier to teach a dog a new trick, than it is a British ex-farmer with a bee in his bonnet about organic farming, which "spells disaster for Thai farmers", but here goes............

As you seem to think pesticides are so benign and bonny, then take a look at this website, dealing specifically with Thailand:

http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p8.htm

However, if you don't want to read the whole thing, here is an excerpt which might just interest you.

Health hazards

The rate of pesticide use in Thailand inevitably has consequences for human health, though identifying the true extent of these is difficult. Many poisoning cases are never reported and do not appear in statistics. For example, a 1985 study concluded that only 2.4% of workers with poisoning incidents consult a hospital. Statistics from the Ministry of Public Health on occupational poisoning show a decrease from a high of 5,154 in 1989 to 3,165 in 1994, although there has been no change in the type and hazard of pesticides used, or the application technology. For the first half of 1996, 1,760 people were admitted to hospital and 16 people died.

There are indications that farmers generally do not care or are not aware of potential pesticide hazards, or if they are it does not modify their actions in handling pesticides. About half Thai farmers apply higher than recommended concentrations, do not pay attention to labels, wear no protective clothing, and do not observe recommended intervals between spraying and harvest. On the other hand, increasing numbers of farmers hire labour to spray, and wages for spraying pesticides are about twice as high as other farm jobs.

Many of the sprayers are women, and in one survey 80% of women reported pesticide poisoning, with acute effects including dizziness, muscular pain, headache, nausea, weakness, and difficulty breathing. The study estimated there could be 39,600 pesticide poisoning cases a year, with total annual health costs of about 13 million Baht (US$507,800).

So, 16 people died from pesticide poisoning in the first half of 1996 alone and only 2.4 % of workers with poisoning even get to a hospital. Sounds pretty disastrous to me, and quite a high price to pay so KC won't have any little grubs in his veggies.

By denying a well-documented problem, which is fairly well legislated against in Europe, but rather poorly legislated against in Thailand (where many farmers face your so-called "grinding poverty" in spite of being non-organic, pesticide-crunching, chemical fertiliser toting dudes), suggests to a "brainwashed" old fish like myself, that organic farming might be a slightly safer road to travel along for Thailand, than the existing chemical-soup application on everything, favoured by agribusiness, some politicians and certain corners of govt. nowadays.

[plachon]

Hugh,

Not sure where or what type of composting facility you intend to set up, but I would do your homework pretty well and find out what already exists in the market. There are quite a few composting plants being set up at the moment, and it is actually becoming a policy to have "one composting station per tambon", although like many centrally-conceived projects it may nose-dive and die a natural death in a few months time. We'll see, but you want to be sure about what the competition and market is, before committing any funds to a scheme wherever.

[RamdomChances]

Hmmm, Iv'e been reading this from the stard but have'nt commented until now. I think both Plachon and korat Correct have some valid points. Any way heres some of my views.

Pesticides there's very little awarness of how much, when to use and the application measures are appauling. We don't used much of it unless we are growing peanuts, which seem to require lots of the stuff. Saying that we've done 3 peanut crops, the first just 10 rai as a trial, did everything "wrong" very little weed killer and hardly any pesticide/fungiside about 2000 bhat/rai profit. 2nd/3rd time 50 odd rai, had advice off one of the more sucsessful peanut growers on what to put on the land, regular pesticide/fungiside spraying, about 3 lots of fertiliser ended up with about 1000 bhat/rai profit. We sub all the spraying out as I dont want my own staff getting sick !!

I must add that most other farms had poor crops that year as well, maily blamed on the rain, to much/little at the wrong times. As I wanted to use the plants to supplement my cow food I was'nt really happy with the level of spraying required or the returns againts the cost of growing it cost about 3 times as much to grow peanuts than Maize. So by no means take it as some sort of study. So in summary there's probably too much used, with to little knowlage as next to no saftey precautions for application.

Fertiliser, I dont really see as that much of a problem. Most of the farms here make pretty heavy use of chicken manure and also use urea and one of those proprietory phosporous/nitrogen/and something else things. There seems to be little training on what/when to use. Crop rotation is not really that practical for many areas, non irrigated land will only have one possibly two growing season's a year and the crop planted has to be sutible for the soil and the ammount of rainfall in the season. Rice paddies dont really lend themselfs to crop rotation. Maize/sunflower seems to be the most popular around here, with sugar cane second (I'n not in a rice growing area)

Market's/certification. At present there is next to no local market for organic produce,the vast majority of it going for export. There is no market for organic meat. From what I can see of the organic sector in Thailand, it is little better, than some of the stuff the big agro componies try to pull off. You have to join some sort of scheme/consortium with the relevent companiy, who will stipulate how you have to grow "stuff" and you will be obliged to sell your produce to, seems very much like "contract farming" to me. There is to my knowlage no Goverment standerds for organic farming. There seems to be a lot writen on the net about organic farming in thailand, but mainly by various NGO's who seem to have little feel for the plight of the average farmer. Organic farming IMO is always going to be a niche market as the majority of people want cheap redily avalible produce and are unwliing to pay a premium.

Whats needed IMO is better education on the use/application of pesticides/fertilisers, better water managment, more irrigation schemes and a willingness of the goverment to try to help the farmer rather than the intrests of big business and potential exports.

I could lay a pretty good claim to producing organic milk, no growth hormones, production enhancers, feeding fresh pestiside free forage ect and most other farms could claim the same thing, is there a market ....no way, we still have to compete with cheap powdered milk imports from Austrailia.

[Gary A]

I live in the boonies and we eat mostly organic vegetables. Most people in the villages also eat organic vegetables. I have gotten used to eating vegetables full of worm holes. Was it my decision, NO! My wife is of the opinion that if the bugs don't want to eat the nice looking vegetables, she doesn't want to eat them either.

[Aitit]

I live in the boonies and we eat mostly organic vegetables. Most people in the villages also eat organic vegetables. I have gotten used to eating vegetables full of worm holes. Was it my decision, NO! My wife is of the opinion that if the bugs don't want to eat the nice looking vegetables, she doesn't want to eat them either.

What kills the bugs also kills the humans, just a bit slower....

Check out EM - Effective Microorganisms

if you have a chance, visit EM-Kyusei in Saraburi, you will be surprised,

btw, if not wrong informed, it has royal support

EM in Thailand

ps, couple of years ago i've posted more about EM,

it appeared to be in a not for all understandable english

but some of the links for non thai readers should do their job.....

[username45]

Hugh,

Not sure where or what type of composting facility you intend to set up, but I would do your homework pretty well and find out what already exists in the market. There are quite a few composting plants being set up at the moment, and it is actually becoming a policy to have "one composting station per tambon", although like many centrally-conceived projects it may nose-dive and die a natural death in a few months time. We'll see, but you want to be sure about what the competition and market is, before committing any funds to a scheme wherever.

The organic fertiliser plant would initially be set up for the international market, rather than domestic. The organic fertiliser fomulae developed by Ken are currently being produced in Australia with short term projected production figues running at about 2000 Tonne a week. The market for these products far exceeds the current production facilities caperbilities and with the quite possibly large reduction in production costs by situating a plant in Isan that market can only grow further.

Other projects, including work in organics with local farmers, including training and education are something that would come up after the first production facillity is open.

Regards, Hugh

[plachon]

Hugh,

Not sure where or what type of composting facility you intend to set up, but I would do your homework pretty well and find out what already exists in the market. There are quite a few composting plants being set up at the moment, and it is actually becoming a policy to have "one composting station per tambon", although like many centrally-conceived projects it may nose-dive and die a natural death in a few months time. We'll see, but you want to be sure about what the competition and market is, before committing any funds to a scheme wherever.

The organic fertiliser plant would initially be set up for the international market, rather than domestic. The organic fertiliser fomulae developed by Ken are currently being produced in Australia with short term projected production figues running at about 2000 Tonne a week. The market for these products far exceeds the current production facilities caperbilities and with the quite possibly large reduction in production costs by situating a plant in Isan that market can only grow further.

Other projects, including work in organics with local farmers, including training and education are something that would come up after the first production facillity is open.

Regards, Hugh

You're going to export organic fertiliser from Thailand right? A couple of questions spring to mind. 1/ Where's your market? 2/ How are you going to get it there? 3/ By building in Isaan, you're further from the ports, so what extra margin will that add on? 4/ What's going to be your raw materials and do you know they're sufficient for 2000 tonnes/week? 5/ Where is the finance for this little venture coming from?

hope you don't mind me saying, but it all sounds a bit back of an envelope-ish at present, so just curious about these basic issues which you must have covered by now.

If everyone and his mate is getting into composting at the same time, there will soon be a shortage of raw material, which interestingly is one of the limitations of organic farming. On-farm residues are usually not sufficient for a farm's needs, so non-organic farms with excess organic wastes are actually essential to keep the organic farms going. This raises questions of sustainability in the long term. However, by judicious use of manures and composts (on mixed farms), and practising crop rotations and use of legumes, then the need for off-farm wastes can be greatly reduced. It is monoculture farms which are most vulnerable and least sustainable, but unfortunately monoculture is an increasing trend in Thailand, seen most vividly in Isaan with certain cash crops like sugar cane and rubber/eucalyptus plantations.

[plachon]

Hey Random, long time no hear mate! At last, a real "actor" joins the debate. Can't fault your observations, although would question your methods over some issues. Like all that spraying herbicides on your nuts! Do you feed the cattle the leaves and sell the nuts or keep the nuts themselves for feed supplements?

I think I warned you a long time back about what was happening with pulling the subsidies on domestic milk and how small Thai dairy farmers were going to get screwed by Australian imports. You big(ish) guys will survive I guess, but it was the small farmers who were initially encouraged to get into dairy farming 15 years back, and are now all falling by the wayside as the rug is being pulled from under their feet by the same govt. that encouraged them to start dairying in the first place. Cruel world, if you're a small farmer wherever, but especially Thailand.

Not sure who is going to carry on all these small Issaan farms (<25 rai) when the current generation get too old to farm, but am sure there is a crisis creeping up here, especially if they are taken over by agribusiness-related interests who are only interested in strip-mine crop farming or super-intensive livestock farms. What's the average size of farm in your area these days and are villages depopulating?

Cheers,

plachon

[username45]

Hugh,

Not sure where or what type of composting facility you intend to set up, but I would do your homework pretty well and find out what already exists in the market. There are quite a few composting plants being set up at the moment, and it is actually becoming a policy to have "one composting station per tambon", although like many centrally-conceived projects it may nose-dive and die a natural death in a few months time. We'll see, but you want to be sure about what the competition and market is, before committing any funds to a scheme wherever.

The organic fertiliser plant would initially be set up for the international market, rather than domestic. The organic fertiliser fomulae developed by Ken are currently being produced in Australia with short term projected production figues running at about 2000 Tonne a week. The market for these products far exceeds the current production facilities caperbilities and with the quite possibly large reduction in production costs by situating a plant in Isan that market can only grow further.

Other projects, including work in organics with local farmers, including training and education are something that would come up after the first production facillity is open.

Regards, Hugh

You're going to export organic fertiliser from Thailand right? A couple of questions spring to mind. 1/ Where's your market? 2/ How are you going to get it there? 3/ By building in Isaan, you're further from the ports, so what extra margin will that add on? 4/ What's going to be your raw materials and do you know they're sufficient for 2000 tonnes/week? 5/ Where is the finance for this little venture coming from?

hope you don't mind me saying, but it all sounds a bit back of an envelope-ish at present, so just curious about these basic issues which you must have covered by now.

If everyone and his mate is getting into composting at the same time, there will soon be a shortage of raw material, which interestingly is one of the limitations of organic farming. On-farm residues are usually not sufficient for a farm's needs, so non-organic farms with excess organic wastes are actually essential to keep the organic farms going. This raises questions of sustainability in the long term. However, by judicious use of manures and composts (on mixed farms), and practising crop rotations and use of legumes, then the need for off-farm wastes can be greatly reduced. It is monoculture farms which are most vulnerable and least sustainable, but unfortunately monoculture is an increasing trend in Thailand, seen most vividly in Isaan with certain cash crops like sugar cane and rubber/eucalyptus plantations.

OK without going into too many details, yes exporting from Isan world-wide.

Re costs for transportation, even adding road freight to BKK with the much lower labour and raw material costs the price per Tonne here would be more than signicantly cheaper than the same product produced in Queensland and landed at say, Brisbane port for transport elsewhere.

Remember a Thai labourer will work a full day for the same money as an Australian labourer will work for 15 minutes. The tax breaks offered in the this region also make it very viable.

Re the market, not withstanding some of the comments in this forum, Organic products are very well regarded in the open market place and generaly receive a higher per kilo price than std farming produce. So consequently the demand for organic fertilisers and pesticide/herbicides is growing exponentially. The 2000 Tonnes currently being produced in Oz does not fulfill the demand and further production facillities are required.

Raw materials for the fertiliser would not be a problem, however I cannot at this stage go into what the main ingredients are, for the normal reasons.

I completed a full study of the feasibility for this project last year, taking into account all the points raised and can tell you that it is extremely viable.

Regarding the investors for the project, the main ones are the current manufacturer, my partner Ken (who currently receives a royalty per Tonne for his formulae of Aus$100 a Tonne, an income of some $200,000 per week) and a group of large scale Organic farmers in both Australia and Japan. So I don't think money will be too much of a problem.

Hoping to get discussions underway towards the end of this year with the facility up and running by mid next year. This is a project that has been in the pipeline for some 18 months now and we are just about ready to take it to the next stage.

Hope this answers some of your points.

All the best, Hugh

[RamdomChances]

Can't fault your observations, although would question your methods over some issues. Like all that spraying herbicides on your nuts! Do you feed the cattle the leaves and sell the nuts or keep the nuts themselves for feed supplements?

Hi Pla, Sell the nuts and feed the plants to the cattle. Peanuts do require a lot of looking after, and I was'nt happy with the ammout of "stuff" we were using, but probably for different reasons from you. I was'nt happy as I was concerned with the levels of pestiside for feeding the plants to the cows, on top of that I sub all of the work out so it really does cut into the profits and I had no way of really storing and using all the plants, so I had a glut for a while and a lot of wastage, you cant feed just peanut plants as all the cows get the runs It's good as a suplenent for forage at about 10-20%. After trying various cash crops, I've finaly just gone over to growing forage sohgram (yaa jumbo), no pestiside/fungiside cow manure and a bit of urea as fertiliser. I think I'll try some ruzi grass next year for grazing as the Jumbo does'nt lend itself well to grazing but is great for "cut and carry".

I think I warned you a long time back about what was happening with pulling the subsidies on domestic milk and how small Thai dairy farmers were going to get screwed by Australian imports.

Yes I remember, we've never had any subsidies on the milk so thats not the problem and to be honest the prob with the Austrailian milk has'nt goten any worse than before, the real prob has been the rise in fuel costs. It's driven the price of food and hay up cutting into profits, while we still have to compete price wise with the imported stuff that has stayed the same price, plus the fuel cost to get your milk to the co-op. At our local co-op there have been about 25 farms close down this year, many of them the larger operations. The price of milking cows has droped to about 20,000 a head from 35,000 a year or so ago and thats for prime milkers anything less than prime now usually being sold for beef.

The problem with the bigger operations is the reliance on hay (rice straw) or bought in fresh forage Fresh forage has all but priced itself out of the market IMO, and if just feeding hay the milk yield drops buy about 30% making the large farms less profitable/head than the smaller ones who can usuall find some grass either from a few rai of their own or just cut and carry from the roadside.

Last year we were at our peak in terms of the ammount of cows we had, but due to the reliance on hay and the increased price of fuel we were actually running at a loss for a large percentage of the year, the first time ever since opening. We've had to downsize to the ammount that we can grow our own food for hence the conversion to growing forage, luckly we have a fair ammount of land to do it and can support about 50-60 head ourselfs (I recon you need about 1 rai/head for dairy to produce enogh forage). Actually at the moment we are the most profitable/head of cattle that we have ever been, although with less cows.

A worrying aspect is that virtually no farms are raising cattle any more, with the glut of cow's on the market it's just not worth it, it takes about 3 years to raise a milker to its first calf and would cost about 20,000 bhat in food to do so. You can buy in prime milkers second or third calf for 20,000 at the moment, and young cows in their first pregnancy say about 6-7 months in for about 14-17,000. with older cows going just for the price of the beef. The price will probably shoot up in a couple of years as the ammount of dairy cattle on the market dries up.

Not sure who is going to carry on all these small Issaan farms (<25 rai) when the current generation get too old to farm, but am sure there is a crisis creeping up here, especially if they are taken over by agribusiness-related interests who are only interested in strip-mine crop farming or super-intensive livestock farms. What's the average size of farm in your area these days and are villages depopulating?

Around here I'd say the average was more like 50-60 rai, either owned or rented (or a bit of both). Most people with smaller ammounts of land working elswhere as well to suplement their income. I was talking to a few of my mate the other day (all with land) and they reconed that to live "sabai sabai" just off farming then you would need around 120 rai working it yourself with your own tractor. We dont seem to get that much involvment for the large agribuisiness here although they do give credit for buying seed/fertiliser most farms are'nt "contracted" to them still being able to sell their produce at best price.

I would'nt say the the villiges are depopulating, but they are'nt growing either, most people I know want their children to get a uni education and a good job. That invariably means leaving although one of the offspring will usually take over the farm. Talking to a lot of people around here, if you go back 50 odd years there were many large farms 2-300 rai (back when you just cleared the land and grew stuff on it) most have just been split down to the remaining children, but there is only so many times that split can occur and still be left with a viable farm.

We are probably in a better position than many areas of thailand, large flat fields, no flooding (no rice production), enough regular rain for two crops a year. Most of the people without land finding seasonal work, in fact most of the actual farm labour having to be "imported" from Issarn during the harvesting seasons, there is an increasing amount of mechnisation ie combine harvesters being used at harvest time, but at the moment these are'nt really any cheaper that labor teams and there is a higher percentage of wastage with them the only benifit is speed. The rice producing areas around Nakhorn, Chia Nat, Supan seem to be pretty affulant many areas doing three crops a year as most of the land has irrigation. The big agri companies seem to be pushing pig farming now, with many new pig farms opening, in lieu of chicken farms which are still pretty big buissines here.

It's only a matter of time I'm afraid before the small farms get sucked up, unless the owner is using it to suplement his income/grow food fro personal use. Most people I know with thier own land have some sort of morgage on it and there is always land avalible at knock down prices where the bank is due to reposses. What can be done, I dont know. I can't see how growing bulk crops on <25 rai farms will ever produce a sustanible income the profit/rai just is'nt there. Diversification, niche markets i.e organic (in some circumstances), fresh fruit and veg may help(better profit/rai), better water managment more irrigation, more education on farm managment.

RC

[bina]

hey ramdom, plachon,

no pestiside/fungiside cow manure

just had an argument w/the gardner on the kibbutz about using donkey/goat/alpaca dry manure in our veggie gardens.... he claims that dry manure thats not been composted is too strong for the veggies (too many salts, etc), and also the organic apples guy here says same thing: we used to use the dried cow manure from the dairy in the orchards etc... now they compost every thing first....btw they also compost the chicken wastes plus the dead chickens (although with the avian flue there are new rules for disposal of dead chickens)... and now we are going over to new 'natural raised' (no antibiotic etc) chicken coops..

like farmers every where, going for the niche i guess...doesnt matter what country your in.

whats your all take on the dry animal manure thingy?????

pig farms should really ruin the farming since the waste is a real pollutant (dont they have that problem in the states w/pig farms???)

Edited June 1, 2006 by bina

[RamdomChances]

Bina I'm not sure on the manure issue, we usually just skim the paddock a couple of times in the dry season then rent a spreader. It's more dry and powdery then like compost by then fresh manure.

[teletiger]

hey ramdom, plachon,

no pestiside/fungiside cow manure

just had an argument w/the gardner on the kibbutz about using donkey/goat/alpaca dry manure in our veggie gardens.... he claims that dry manure thats not been composted is too strong for the veggies (too many salts, etc), and also the organic apples guy here says same thing: we used to use the dried cow manure from the dairy in the orchards etc... now they compost every thing first....btw they also compost the chicken wastes plus the dead chickens (although with the avian flue there are new rules for disposal of dead chickens)... and now we are going over to new 'natural raised' (no antibiotic etc) chicken coops..

like farmers every where, going for the niche i guess...doesnt matter what country your in.

whats your all take on the dry animal manure thingy?????

pig farms should really ruin the farming since the waste is a real pollutant (dont they have that problem in the states w/pig farms???)

The reason manure is composted is to rid it of unwanted weed seeds, intestinal worms, various fly eggs and larvae and various other bacterial, viral or fungal elements it may contain. The compost heap (if built correctly) will get very hot. Fresh manure, on an NPK scale is usually about 3-3-3

as opposed to urea which is 46-0-0, or an average fruit tree fertiliser of 15-15-15.

Where there salts come from is a mystery. Most animals use the majority of the salts fed them.

Anyone ever seen a grazed pasture that's suffered? scorch marks? dead grass? lack of grass maybe, but that comes back sooner rather than later, due to the amount of plop on it

I was taught that a 10 acre/rai field, should first be grazed by cows, then a flock of sheep immediately afterwards, followed by horses. (they really get the bum-end of the plop deal )

the reason being that their worms aren't interchangable and the different levels at which they graze. In the vegetable garden, the composting just saves you time weeding.

As for the pigs, what comes out the back is less than what goes in the front. So maybe it's the feed thats the pollutant. Enjoy your next moo lave

regards

Edited June 1, 2006 by teletiger

[bina]

thanks teletiger, thats the same reasons he gave for composting: the funguses etc....

as for grazing: sheep it head down, goats eat head up, so get less parasites, the other parasites do move from one to an other actually though not all...

horses' hooves trample and flatten the land much more hten cows et al... and their plob is different cause theya rent ruminants... so maybe the manure quality is different (big and floppy rather then dry and straw filled or round pellets?)...

i suppose the plop quality is only as good as what went in the front end as well? organic in, organic out??? or does the feed quality change the dung quality? i'm serious in asking (curiuous actually, having tonnes litereally of donkey and deer dung , non composted) which means that organic compost has to come from organically raised animals so their dung is clear of trace pesticides, etc etc...

the organic compost market in israel is filled with lots of slightly crooked suppliers, can just imagine thailand certifying composters as organic! how much under the table money could exchange hands...

Edited June 1, 2006 by bina

[plachon]

Can't fault your observations, although would question your methods over some issues. Like all that spraying herbicides on your nuts! Do you feed the cattle the leaves and sell the nuts or keep the nuts themselves for feed supplements?

Hi Pla, Sell the nuts and feed the plants to the cattle. Peanuts do require a lot of looking after, and I was'nt happy with the ammout of "stuff" we were using, but probably for different reasons from you. I was'nt happy as I was concerned with the levels of pestiside for feeding the plants to the cows, on top of that I sub all of the work out so it really does cut into the profits and I had no way of really storing and using all the plants, so I had a glut for a while and a lot of wastage, you cant feed just peanut plants as all the cows get the runs It's good as a suplenent for forage at about 10-20%. After trying various cash crops, I've finaly just gone over to growing forage sohgram (yaa jumbo), no pestiside/fungiside cow manure and a bit of urea as fertiliser. I think I'll try some ruzi grass next year for grazing as the Jumbo does'nt lend itself well to grazing but is great for "cut and carry".

I think I warned you a long time back about what was happening with pulling the subsidies on domestic milk and how small Thai dairy farmers were going to get screwed by Australian imports.

Yes I remember, we've never had any subsidies on the milk so thats not the problem and to be honest the prob with the Austrailian milk has'nt goten any worse than before, the real prob has been the rise in fuel costs. It's driven the price of food and hay up cutting into profits, while we still have to compete price wise with the imported stuff that has stayed the same price, plus the fuel cost to get your milk to the co-op. At our local co-op there have been about 25 farms close down this year, many of them the larger operations. The price of milking cows has droped to about 20,000 a head from 35,000 a year or so ago and thats for prime milkers anything less than prime now usually being sold for beef.

Thanks for your extensive direct observations RC, which are all interesting. However, I have to go back to our old discussion about subsidies, as I disagree that dairy operations have not been subsidised by govt. I'm not talking about direct subsidy put on the price of milk, but lots of indirect subsidies that dairy farmers have received over the years which has been paid by govt. (i.e. the good ol' taxpayer or thru' bilateral aid projects) which have skewed the market and production of milk products in Thailand. Not so many years ago, when it was govt. policy to promote dairy farming, farmers were the beneficiaries of millions of baht in subsidies, whether it was free training courses, free vetinary care, cheap imported cows, cheap (free?) artificial insemination for a period, coop and pasteurising equipment support and lots besides. Not only that, but they found markets (e.g. milk in schools project), spent millions on advertising and milk promotion campaigns and bought milk from farmers at premium prices for the state dairy enterprise. Those were the good years, but still lots of farmers went bust on the backs of failed dairying even with all the support, at least here in Isaan.

But one by one, all those direct and indirect subsidies have been removed and now you guys are left competing with huge dairy operations in Aus/NZ/Europe and elsewhere, with no govt. support and FTAs undercutting your livelihoods. It's questionable, given the challenges of tropical dairying, whether most farmers will survive in the long run, as imports will be cheaper for any processed dairy products, although locally savvy integrated coops will probably be able to hang on supplying the limited market for fresh milk into the future. It's a bit like UK trying to compete with Spain for tomatoes and early veg. It can be done, but it's never going to be a huge enterprise, which begs the question why did govt. build up such an unsustainable industry in the first place, only to allow it to wither on the stem once up and running? Given the history of centralised Thai agricultural decision-making, maybe not hard to answer.

There's one more subsidy not mentioned which you've been receiving on and off for the last few years, along with most other farmers and owners of diesel-powered engines. Yep, fuel has been heavily subsidised, but that era is now at an end, which is hurting farmers badly. Can expect a lot more bankrupticies in the next few years methinks. But smart savvy farmers that don't put all their eggs in one basket, diversify, find niche markets and cut external energy costs will survive and prosper, so I have no doubt that you will find new ways to stay afloat. But it's all those small farmers in Isaan that I feel sorry for, trying to hang on to their land and make a living, while outside forces conspire against them, not least politicians (who just want their votes and dosh) and agribusiness companies who want their land, money, cheap labour and even shirts off their backs, before they're satisfied. I know, it's a tough, dog-eat-dog world and all that, but that doesn't stop me from being concerned for the future of a people and place I love and can see is being dragged down by uncontrolled greed.

That's my rant for the day! Now, time for a beer to cool down my frayed nerves!

Take it easy RC and good luck on building up the herd.

[chownah]

Fresh manure, on an NPK scale is usually about 3-3-3

If you look on the internet I thinkyou will find that fresh cow manure is more like 0.6-0.2-0.5 (NPK).

Chownah

Bina,

I think you should try some of that dried but uncomposted manure on a small section of vegies and see if it works......it works for me just fine. When using uncomposted manure and you grow vegetable that are likely to come into contact with the soil (lettuce and carrots for sure and also probably tomatoes and peppers etc.) then certified organic practices (in some jurisdictions) require a minimum of 120 days between applying fresh manure and harvest and 90 days for crops that are not likely to touch the soil (tree fruits etc.). If you use composted manure (the method required for composting is usually called out in the specifications) then there is no minimum waiting period. This means that for lettuce (for instance) using fresh manure you could get only three crops per year but using composted manure you could get six crops a year or even more if planting early maturing varities and tranplanting. I personally don't worry about this when farming in Thailand because fresh manure placed in the soil without composting will compost in the soil very rapidly here all year round because it is alway warm.....in a temperate climate it becomes more critical...this is just my opinion only.

Chownah

[bina]

hi chownah

all those chinese cabbages and thai green leaves of various sorts did really really well with the manure (and we didnt wait those amount of days before eating, they went from field to pot or animal yard very quickly )

the mak naam (those long gourds aith the gigantic leaves) do really really well if watered every day (a big no no but we do it anyhow, they double in use as a roof cover for the aviaries and provide shade, and later, food) and the dried manure seems to work wonders since the thing grows like a monster plant from that little shop on the corner

our sugar cane didnt do too well (not tasty, maybe not enough water?)or too much manure?

the thai veggies that did well were from seeds taken from plants that grew here one season (the originals were seeds brought from thailand); the packaged seeds given to me had a higher failure rate - but maybe it was the brand that was purchased

[udon]

New topic, or leave it here?

GE papaya in the dock in Thailand court case

01 June 2006

Greenpeace Thai activists seal off the GE papaya at the Khon Kaen agricultural research station of the Department of Agriculture.

Bangkok, Thailand —

The trial of two Greenpeace activists at the Bangkok Criminal Court closed today with the activists facing three criminal counts and up to five years jail time if convicted. Their alleged crime? Exposing the role of the Thai Department of Agriculture (DOA) in the illegal sale and distribution of GE papaya.

In 2004, Greenpeace revealed the DOA GE papaya field trials in their Khon Khan research station was the source of widespread genetic contamination and that the department had illegally distributed GE contaminated seeds to 2,669 farmers in 37 provinces.

The DOA refused to act and clean up the GE contamination so the activists decontaminated one of the sites themselves, the very job that the DOA should have been doing.

Instead of praising the efforts of the activists in cleaning up the contamination, DOA officials sued the Greenpeace activists, Ms Patwajee Srisuwan, a Greenpeace campaigner, and Dr Jiragorn Gajaseni, former Executive Director of Greenpeace Southeast Asia, hoping to intimidate and silence them.

On the final day of testimony, Melanie Bondera, a papaya farmer from the Big Island of Hawaii, told the court about experiences of massive GE papaya contamination in her home state and its widespread effects. She told the court of the loss of income after GE papaya was released and the continued economic and environmental threats GE posed to Hawaii.

"To us farmers, GE papaya brought more negative impacts than positive. Farmers could not grow the same crops if GE organisms are found in their farm, and therefore lose their livelihood. Also farmers in Hawaii weren't able to export their papayas to Japan anymore," said Melanie.

Hawaii, the only place in the world where GE papaya has been grown commercially, has now damaged its export markets and organic and conventional growers have suffered due to GE contamination. Hawaii exports were flourishing until the introduction of GE papaya in 1998. Most of the countries importing papaya from Hawaii including the EU, Japan, and China have rejected GE crops and foods. Once GE contamination started in Hawaii, the doors quickly closed on Hawaii's papaya exports.

Whilst Thailand has an existing ban on the planting and sale of genetically engineered crops, this ban has been under constant assault from the agro-chemical industry, which is trying to make GE inroads into Thailand's lucrative non-GE agriculture market.

"Genetic pollution caused by GE organisms has irreversible effects on the environment, therefore we must stop the widening GE papaya contamination in our country. The Constitution empowers every Thai citizen the right to protect our environment," said Patwajee.

It has been over a year since the criminal charges of theft, trespassing and destruction of property were lodged against the Greenpeace activists. The GE court trial ended on the 30 May with a verdict on the court case expected towards the end of this year.

A Greenpeace South East Asia report "Contamination by Genetically Engineered Papaya in Thailand" gives an overview of the GE papaya scandal.

Source: http://www.greenpeace.org/international/ne...-papaya-010606#