Shutdown is illegal, govt warns

[jackrich]

I would assume that it's illegal because Suthep has not said it would be a simple protest. He has called on people to block traffic in the entire city, cut electricity and water supply.

Lies, Lies, and more lies and propaganda from yet another red shirt supporter.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/Protest-leader-Suthep-details-January-13-strategy-30223402.html

It's your dear leader Suthep's own words, not mine. He said it, not me.

[MAJIC]

How can any of these government officials be taken seriously when some of them gave moral and financial support to the protesters that shut down Bangkok in 2010?

In 2010, they were forced to resort to such means just in order to win their democratic right to vote because it was clear from all the interviews he was giving on such new channels as CNN and BBC that Abhisit was going to postpone elections for as long as he could using any excuse that he could

And the same thing would happen again if they were to overthrow the democratic process again

Nonsense! Abhisit gave the Red shirts an early election offer within the early part of the 2010 violent/arson fuelled/Anarchists/uprising.which was refused,point blank!

[fish fingers]

win by the rules? like passing a sneakily altered Bill in the final Lower House vote at 4.25am while the nation was asleep, unaware of the coming political nightmare ...

I'm afraid Yingluck deserves what she gets.

They are an elected government, they can pass any bills they win the vote on.

And when the Court rightly ruled it illegal, what did they do?

They dropped it!

They haven't abandoned the Bill as everyone knows,

Even if the Senate rejects the bill, the House can still push it through in xxx days. Its up to people power to stop it.

Edited January 5, 2014 by fish fingers

[fasteddie]

How can any of these government officials be taken seriously when some of them gave moral and financial support to the protesters that shut down Bangkok in 2010?

In 2010, they were forced to resort to such means just in order to win their democratic right to vote because it was clear from all the interviews he was giving on such new channels as CNN and BBC that Abhisit was going to postpone elections for as long as he could using any excuse that he could

And the same thing would happen again if they were to overthrow the democratic process again

Nonsense! Abhisit gave the Red shirts an early election offer within the early part of the 2010 violent/arson fuelled/Anarchists/uprising.which was refused,point blank!

One person's violent/arson fuelled/anarchist, is another person's freedom fighter!

Sent from my LG-P880 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[slipperylobster]

I must say I have never been a fan of Suthep, but today I will join the protests. I will walk out of my living room, march down the hall, into the toilet and take a dump for deader leader Suthep. I strongly urge everyone else to come out and join me.

Do it before they shut down everything (including the water services). You might be careful what you wish for.

[slipperylobster]

[Publicus]

"Shutdown is illegal, govt warns"

Why is it against the law to join the protest? Annoying, disruptive, counter-productive, yes, all of these. But illegal? Is it against the law because it is against PT's wishes?

It's against the law because the leaders of the mobs in the streets have openly declared insurrection for the purpose of overthrowing the legitimately elected government and to prevent a legally called and scheduled election being conducted in accordance with the constitution.

The leaders of the insurrection have openly declared their intent to establish an arbitrarily anointed and still anonymous "People's Council" to rule absolutely over the nation after the negation of democracy and the constitutionally scheduled election.

Any government of the world has the inherent right to defend itself against insurrection of any kind - it is the government's sovereign right to preserve and protect itself in the interests of the nation, its people, the constitution.

Citizens are responsible to themselves and to society to know these facts and to accept responsibility for their decisions and actions in either respect.

Yes in a functioning democracy. But what the govt has done so far with the affair of the nation has not been sign of a functioning democracy. Right now, there is absolutely no Check and Balance in the system. Even citizens right have been violated. The citizens asked for rice figures they are not giving it. So many others violation of ciitizens rights too lengthy to mention. This govt has lost their legitimency and no one can disagree with that.

Your assertions have some considerable credibility and viability.

Whatever credibility and viability exists is due entirely to the current constitution having been written by a body appointed in 2007 by the ruling military coup leaders, which should be a strong lesson to the fascists who are running amok throughout Bangkok trying to force yet another military coup.

It's unfortunate that a number of fahlang have either consciously or unconsciously allowed themselves to become absorbed into the strongly feudal aspects of Thai culture, society, civilization.

[Mackie]

Your assertions have some considerable credibility and viability.

Whatever credibility and viability exists is due entirely to the current constitution having been written by a body appointed in 2007 by the ruling military coup leaders, which should be a strong lesson to the fascists who are running amok throughout Bangkok trying to force yet another military coup.

It's unfortunate that a number of fahlang have either consciously or unconsciously allowed themselves to become absorbed into the strongly feudal aspects of Thai culture, society, civilization.

It is simply laughable that you call out other farangs for picking out sides in this current political impasse taking into account that you clearly stated that you spend number of nights in Central World sleeping with the red shirts, sharing alcohol and food etc...etc...By your own admission you sided with criminals, thieves and terrorists. Nothing to be proud of. Can't you see how hypocritical your statement is?

And just to refresh you memory who those red shirts were.

Descent into Chaos

http://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/reports/thailand0511webwcover_0.pdf

Edited January 6, 2014 by Mackie

[Publicus]

Your assertions have some considerable credibility and viability.

Whatever credibility and viability exists is due entirely to the current constitution having been written by a body appointed in 2007 by the ruling military coup leaders, which should be a strong lesson to the fascists who are running amok throughout Bangkok trying to force yet another military coup.

It's unfortunate that a number of fahlang have either consciously or unconsciously allowed themselves to become absorbed into the strongly feudal aspects of Thai culture, society, civilization.

It is simply laughable that you call out other farangs for picking out sides in this current political impasse taking into account that you clearly stated that you spend number of nights in Central World sleeping with the red shirts, sharing alcohol and food etc...etc...By your own admission you sided with criminals, thieves and terrorists. Nothing to be proud of. Can't you see how hypocritical your statement is?

And just to refresh you memory who those red shirts were.

Descent into Chaos

http://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/reports/thailand0511webwcover_0.pdf

The Thai people I spent time with impressed me as good and decent people, warm, friendly, kind and committed to improving their present and future lives.

Conversely, I wouldn't spend a moment with either Thaksin or Suthep except to seize the occasion to swift kick each of 'em in the nads.

[aimbc]

"Shutdown is illegal, govt warns"

Why is it against the law to join the protest? Annoying, disruptive, counter-productive, yes, all of these. But illegal? Is it against the law because it is against PT's wishes?

It's against the law because the leaders of the mobs in the streets have openly declared insurrection for the purpose of overthrowing the legitimately elected government and to prevent a legally called and scheduled election being conducted in accordance with the constitution.

The leaders of the insurrection have openly declared their intent to establish an arbitrarily anointed and still anonymous "People's Council" to rule absolutely over the nation after the negation of democracy and the constitutionally scheduled election.

Any government of the world has the inherent right to defend itself against insurrection of any kind - it is the government's sovereign right to preserve and protect itself in the interests of the nation, its people, the constitution.

Citizens are responsible to themselves and to society to know these facts and to accept responsibility for their decisions and actions in either respect.

Yes in a functioning democracy. But what the govt has done so far with the affair of the nation has not been sign of a functioning democracy. Right now, there is absolutely no Check and Balance in the system. Even citizens right have been violated. The citizens asked for rice figures they are not giving it. So many others violation of ciitizens rights too lengthy to mention. This govt has lost their legitimency and no one can disagree with that.

Your assertions have some considerable credibility and viability.

Whatever credibility and viability exists is due entirely to the current constitution having been written by a body appointed in 2007 by the ruling military coup leaders, which should be a strong lesson to the fascists who are running amok throughout Bangkok trying to force yet another military coup.

It's unfortunate that a number of fahlang have either consciously or unconsciously allowed themselves to become absorbed into the strongly feudal aspects of Thai culture, society, civilization.

Democracy in itself is a man made ideology and a generally well accepted one. It's framework and workings are innocent. And since it's man made, it is subjected to many flaws. For all its intended purpose it does allow us to govern within certain guidelines. But when government such as this with their blatant abuse the system to a point that no one can stop them, even within the means of the constitution, then something is wrong. The actions of this government is definitely not in the best interest for most of the citizens Consider this, if the protesters did not do their civil duty as any good citizen of this nation, then we would see a criminal walking free, government spending will continue to spiral out of control, the government ignoring the rule of law, the government violating the rights of its citizens.

I am no fan of politician myself. I was happy the YS won, but her leadership or lack of it, has place Thailand on the brink of financial disaster. I work hard everyday and pay my taxes. I want government to be accountable, which they have not been. We can not let politician exploit Thailand. And any concern and responsible citizens who understand the situation must stand up instead of keeping quiet. That is the responsibility of every citizens. This I believe is the right choice, let the citizen repair the framework and guard it against corruption.

So your solution is to let the election go on so that this government can push the resume button and continue with their corrupt ways? How is that protecting democracy? And you know the government is not going to fix the structure. They created it. Just that TS, brought it up to light how flawed the system is. Election works only if people are well informed with truth or can search out the truth and make an informed decision. Not just listen to propaganda. Let me remind you what is at stake if they return to office again, Amnesty for a convicted criminal, out of control and damaging Rice Scheme, Water project and the 2Trillion infrastructure project, which have been pushed through without any oversight. I am not going to trust a government that can not manage their own finance to manage more public debt. The system needs fixing, probably an overhaul, and it has to start now. Better now, then let Thailand become a failed state because of excessive abuse and corruption and uncontrolled spending.

[Emster23]

"So you would rather see terrible people voted for in charge than good people not voted in charge. Sick in the head"

Couple problems here: first, it is a false dichotomy. No third choice considered (vote in good people). Second is: why would you assume that good people would be put in charge? Who would decide what makes a person "good"? That they would serve Suthep's and the real rich elite would be my guess. That would not fall in my definition of "good". And how would these new appointed folks stay in power? By election? Already had one, and that group didn't win. They could win a new election if anyone opposing them was not allowed to run, but that defeats basis of democracy, doesn't it?

[Publicus]

@aimbc

You wrote a post above that is well thought through, genuine and which raises the quality of the discourse in general and of this thread's topic in particular. In it you made generalized statements in respect of democracy I easily and readily agree with and which many people would easily agree.

So you and others know that now comes some (at least equally genuine) critique of certain points in the post.

But when government such as this with their blatant abuse the system to a point that no one can stop them, even within the means of the constitution, then something is wrong.

Yes, the something that is wrong rests with the fundamental error that the constitution, itself haphazardly adopted by popular referendum, was written by baleful autocratic feudal elitists anointed by military dictators who had conducted what in international law is defined as a military mutiny, i.e., an extra-constitutional coup d'état. Martial extra-constitutional practitioners joined with feudal elitists writing a civil constitution is a guaranteed self-defeating absurdity in and of itself.

The system needs fixing, probably an overhaul, and it has to start now. Better now, then let Thailand become a failed state because of excessive abuse and corruption and uncontrolled spending

Did you write this circa 1955 or did I read something to the same effect that had been written back then? Or might I have read it in a novel about a future Thailand circa 2030?

People can have honest differences and you and I certainly do have honest divergences.

There's just no way however that I will turn the basic ideals and aspirations you and I essentially have in common for Thailand over to the master of corruption himself, who, whether he's aware or not, is Thailand's Mussolini, nor do I support civil insurrection, which itself is extra-constitutional and conducted/supported by the anti-democracy elements of Thai society that remain adamantly feudal in their nature and character, as evidenced by their advocacy of a still anonymous "People's Council" of anointed autocrats that would rule in place of a constitutionally called and scheduled popular election.

And I reiterate that feudalism stated in modern terms is fascism.

[aimbc]

@aimbc

You wrote a post above that is well thought through, genuine and which raises the quality of the discourse in general and of this thread's topic in particular. In it you made generalized statements in respect of democracy I easily and readily agree with and which many people would easily agree.

So you and others know that now comes some (at least equally genuine) critique of certain points in the post.

But when government such as this with their blatant abuse the system to a point that no one can stop them, even within the means of the constitution, then something is wrong.

Yes, the something that is wrong rests with the fundamental error that the constitution, itself haphazardly adopted by popular referendum, was written by baleful autocratic feudal elitists anointed by military dictators who had conducted what in international law is defined as a military mutiny, i.e., an extra-constitutional coup d'état. Martial extra-constitutional practitioners joined with feudal elitists writing a civil constitution is a guaranteed self-defeating absurdity in and of itself.

The system needs fixing, probably an overhaul, and it has to start now. Better now, then let Thailand become a failed state because of excessive abuse and corruption and uncontrolled spending

Did you write this circa 1955 or did I read something to the same effect that had been written back then? Or might I have read it in a novel about a future Thailand circa 2030?

People can have honest differences and you and I certainly do have honest divergences.

There's just no way however that I will turn the basic ideals and aspirations you and I essentially have in common for Thailand over to the master of corruption himself, who, whether he's aware or not, is Thailand's Mussolini, nor do I support civil insurrection, which itself is extra-constitutional and conducted/supported by the anti-democracy elements of Thai society that remain adamantly feudal in their nature and character, as evidenced by their advocacy of a still anonymous "People's Council" of anointed autocrats that would rule in place of a constitutionally called and scheduled popular election.

And I reiterate that feudalism stated in modern terms is fascism.

Then if this govt continue to press the resume button after the election, then people must come out again to stop the government from abusing its power and another election is called again, then be it. A viscous cycle of non-productive exercise of defending democracy. This is your answer?

Democracy is based on governance by fair and just people. People are to govern it with high ethical and moral values. Those are the leaders we put in charge and are trusted to do. This is also one of the many basis of Democracy. But I hardly see this government and agendas as fair and just or even ethical. Have you seen it? Maybe I might have missed something. So if you deem election to be an important part of functioning democracy, then you must uphold all basis like Ethical and Moral values of our elected leaders, which is also a part of functioning democracy. They are accountable and transparent in their actions. These govt are far from that. And the system is so broken, they are still not accountable. In the US, you will have new agency over rice scheme so fast and subpoena of documents by various law agency. But here, no. The news are oppressed in fear of slander charges. The law enforcement arm do not serve the people. Because something is fundamentally wrong with the system. I don't claim to have the answer, but this is an option that works best. Thailand is not abandoning democracy I can reassure you. I think citizens of Thailand have been too lazy to police after the politician long enough. That is why they have come out more than ever. And will not let democracy vanish. I am no historian, but I can't recall in my life time this many people coming out in masses to protest against this government.

For the record, I am not about trying to throw TS out. He was just the poster child. And as long as he can exploit the weakness of the system, then he will never stop. But reforming it will prevent/deter other future officials from abusing their power. Yes all politicians even the democrat. This is not about party lines. It's not about north and south. It is about the future of Thailand. About all of Thailand.

[bunuel]

Excellent post, and straight to the point. The alternative to rule of law is chaos - which means rule of the mob.Protests are fine, as long as they are directed in Gandhian fashion towards changing unjust laws.

These protesters are advocating the ad hoc destruction of existing rule of law, hoping to provoke a violent response from supporters of the government which might then justify a military intervention. Their actions have already cost innocent lives and cost the Thai economy billions of baht in lost revenue, and the long term damage to tourism, convention , and other industries is incalculable, but will be severe. It seems they havd no conscience or any consideration for their fellow citizens. They claim they are " saving the country from corruption," , but actions speak louder than words.

They would do well to remember the Buddhist proverb:

When the water runs high, the fish eat the ants;

but when the water runs low, the ants will eat the fish.

When the Red Shirts whom they are so foolishly trying to provoke finally respond, these

protesters will be the first ones to cry to the authorities they have been publicly humiliating.

This is an extremely dangerous game they are playing, and the sooner cooler heads realize

the need for negotiation and compromise, the better.

Surapong is constantly being caught with his trousers around his ankles.

He is supposed to be head of CAPO 'Centre for the Administration of Peace and Order'

Yet their handling of the Dec 26th ruckus with their 'men in black' on rooftops clearly exacerbating the situation and videos of police willfully vandalizing cars and terrorizing a health worker trapped in her pickup... all under the control of CAPO and their so called role to maintain 'Peace and order'. Not to mention releasing a statement saying the 'men on the roof' were protesters knowing full well that they were police (under THEIR) supposed control.

Then we have daily statements using terms such as 'combined force' and 'strong measures' not to mention 'death penalty'. These are not words of peace and order, these are words of 'INTIMIDATION'.

This CAPO bunch of idiots are almost guaranteed to mess these coming major protests up, this time it won't be a few thousand students, it will be a lot more grave.

Police on the rooftop of a government building during a mass riot determined to prevent candidates registering for the scheduled election is hardly the stuff of conspiracies or of government violence - it's normal and routine procedure practiced by any legitimate government.

Your "intimidation" is the government's inherent right to protect and preserve itself, which all governments have and which is the duty of any duly elected government to all of the nation and its people.

The government is facing a declared insurrection by mobs led in this instance by a incipient fascist who wants to overthrow the legitimately elected government in favor of a Mussolini fashioned "People's Council" which admittedly is intended to deliver the absolute rule of the privileged elites in place of a duly scheduled election.

This is now moving beyond incipient fascism as Thailand enters the time and temper of 1930s Europe.

[binjalin]

I would assume that it's illegal because Suthep has not said it would be a simple protest. He has called on people to block traffic in the entire city, cut electricity and water supply.

Lies, Lies, and more lies and propaganda from yet another red shirt supporter.

Facist, Facist, and more Facist defence of the attempted coup against democracy from yet another gullible "deferential amart supporter"

[newcomer71]

Another topic became: you are red, not you are yellow!

It's so boring and discussion level plunged to playschool line.

Would be more easy if everyone would express their opinion without essentially offend everyone else that doesn't agree. Wouldn't be?

[Publicus]

Another topic became: you are red, not you are yellow!

It's so boring and discussion level plunged to playschool line.

Would be more easy if everyone would express their opinion without essentially offend everyone else that doesn't agree. Wouldn't be?

I find your opinion offensive.

So what now???

[Publicus]

@aimbc

You wrote:

Then if this govt continue to press the resume button after the election, then people must come out again to stop the government from abusing its power and another election is called again, then be it. A viscous cycle of non-productive exercise of defending democracy. This is your answer?

My answer? Thanks for asking.

My answer is that in a parliamentary system such as the Westminster System which Thailand has, the minority is sh#t out of luck.

In the United States Congressional System the majority has a moral and ethical obligation to have an appreciable respect of the rights of the minority. This is true in the US House of Representatives, however, the US Senate has radically different rules that allow one Senator to stop the whole of the show across a broad range of matters - in other words, the Senate institutionalizes the rights of not only the minority but of any one individual Senator in either the minority or the majority.

Still, in the US House the minority is entirely dependent on the majority for anything it gets. This is the real world of democracy, not a la-la land construction of democracy that is created to suit the interests of the elites in Thailand and their mobs in the street that believe in the rule of the mob or, if not by the mob, then after the mob in a still anonymous "People's Council" of autocrats who would be arbitrarily seated by a summary process and procedure that would be separated and distant from the people over and in whose name they rule.

You also wrote:

Democracy is based on governance by fair and just people. People are to govern it with high ethical and moral values. Those are the leaders we put in charge and are trusted to do.

Who are the "fair and just" people of Thailand? Not Thaksin and certainly not Suthep.

Would the still anonymous "People's Council" consist of fair and just people of "high ethical and moral values" and would the members of the council be appointed by a fair and just means by people of high ethical and moral values?

Are the members of the Thai Senate in parliament the people of high ethical and moral values the people can trust to be fair and just in nominating Council members when half of the appointing Senators are themselves appointed and thus not directly or at all accountable or attentive to the people?

Will Suthep go home to Surat Thani after the Council is anointed? Will Suthep promise to stay off the phone and internet while he's in Surat Thani and promise not to meet with members of the Council or involve himself in politics, or will Suthep pull strings from afar and direct the Council as if he were a power broker in a distant capital of an emerate.

If Suthep in Surat Thani thinks, will the People's Council act?

It's past time Suthep and his shadowy backers anted up to publish the list of who would sit on this People's Council in theirs and Suthep's people's republic, as it were, so the people can know who would be ruling over them and have an open and free discussion of it, and to pass judgement on them and it.

In a democracy and in democratic elections processes the list of those who seek public office is published and the candidates present themselves to the people well before the voting occurs so that the people may know for whom they will vote and why. Who shall sit on this mysterious council and by what democratic means that is moral and just will they be anointed, er, appointed - same thing actually.

Then you wrote:

This is not about party lines. It's not about north and south. It is about the future of Thailand. About all of Thailand.

Once again, you and I share the same concern and focus. Yet, we couldn't disagree more.

[daboyz1]

Who are the "fair and just" people of Thailand? Not Thaksin and certainly not Suthep.

Thaksin is running the country through his sister. This has been proven about 100 times, 100 different ways. He's said so himself. I can't see how anyone is fine with that.

[meand]

I love how Suthep says "I will keep a lane open for certain traffic". As a taxpayer here, I take some serious offense to that. I helped pay for the roads, gee, thanks ahole, you will keep a lane open for me.

[GeorgeO]

How can any of these government officials be taken seriously when some of them gave moral and financial support to the protesters that shut down Bangkok in 2010?

As the saying goes 'i'ts water under the bridge'one must look forward not back wards.

I see you have totally embraced the essence of "Thainess"...!!

[GeorgeO]

I would assume that it's illegal because Suthep has not said it would be a simple protest. He has called on people to block traffic in the entire city, cut electricity and water supply.

Lies, Lies, and more lies and propaganda from yet another red shirt supporter.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/Protest-leader-Suthep-details-January-13-strategy-30223402.html

It's your dear leader Suthep's own words, not mine. He said it, not me.

It's one thing to quote Suthep:

He has called on people to block traffic in the entire city, cut electricity and water supply.

it's quite a different thing to quote him accurately:

"Reiterating that the protesters will cut electricity and tap water at government offices, Suthep insisted that such measures would not affect private housing".

[GeorgeO]

How can any of these government officials be taken seriously when some of them gave moral and financial support to the protesters that shut down Bangkok in 2010?

In 2010, they were forced to resort to such means just in order to win their democratic right to vote because it was clear from all the interviews he was giving on such new channels as CNN and BBC that Abhisit was going to postpone elections for as long as he could using any excuse that he could

And the same thing would happen again if they were to overthrow the democratic process again

Nonsense! Abhisit gave the Red shirts an early election offer within the early part of the 2010 violent/arson fuelled/Anarchists/uprising.which was refused,point blank!

One person's violent/arson fuelled/anarchist, is another person's freedom fighter!

Sent from my LG-P880 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

So presumably, you also support the current protests?!

[Publicus]

Who are the "fair and just" people of Thailand? Not Thaksin and certainly not Suthep.

Thaksin is running the country through his sister. This has been proven about 100 times, 100 different ways. He's said so himself. I can't see how anyone is fine with that.

Thaksin has been running in place for a long time and I think after the amnesty fiasco he might be beginning to realize he's going to continue running in place for a very long time to come. It's highly doubtful Thaksin can return to Thailand in this lifetime.

[aimbc]

@aimbc

You wrote:

Then if this govt continue to press the resume button after the election, then people must come out again to stop the government from abusing its power and another election is called again, then be it. A viscous cycle of non-productive exercise of defending democracy. This is your answer?

My answer? Thanks for asking.

My answer is that in a parliamentary system such as the Westminster System which Thailand has, the minority is sh#t out of luck.

In the United States Congressional System the majority has a moral and ethical obligation to have an appreciable respect of the rights of the minority. This is true in the US House of Representatives, however, the US Senate has radically different rules that allow one Senator to stop the whole of the show across a broad range of matters - in other words, the Senate institutionalizes the rights of not only the minority but of any one individual Senator in either the minority or the majority.

Still, in the US House the minority is entirely dependent on the majority for anything it gets. This is the real world of democracy, not a la-la land construction of democracy that is created to suit the interests of the elites in Thailand and their mobs in the street that believe in the rule of the mob or, if not by the mob, then after the mob in a still anonymous "People's Council" of autocrats who would be arbitrarily seated by a summary process and procedure that would be separated and distant from the people over and in whose name they rule.

You also wrote:

Democracy is based on governance by fair and just people. People are to govern it with high ethical and moral values. Those are the leaders we put in charge and are trusted to do.

Who are the "fair and just" people of Thailand? Not Thaksin and certainly not Suthep.

Would the still anonymous "People's Council" consist of fair and just people of "high ethical and moral values" and would the members of the council be appointed by a fair and just means by people of high ethical and moral values?

Are the members of the Thai Senate in parliament the people of high ethical and moral values the people can trust to be fair and just in nominating Council members when half of the appointing Senators are themselves appointed and thus not directly or at all accountable or attentive to the people?

Will Suthep go home to Surat Thani after the Council is anointed? Will Suthep promise to stay off the phone and internet while he's in Surat Thani and promise not to meet with members of the Council or involve himself in politics, or will Suthep pull strings from afar and direct the Council as if he were a power broker in a distant capital of an emerate.

If Suthep in Surat Thani thinks, will the People's Council act?

It's past time Suthep and his shadowy backers anted up to publish the list of who would sit on this People's Council in theirs and Suthep's people's republic, as it were, so the people can know who would be ruling over them and have an open and free discussion of it, and to pass judgement on them and it.

In a democracy and in democratic elections processes the list of those who seek public office is published and the candidates present themselves to the people well before the voting occurs so that the people may know for whom they will vote and why. Who shall sit on this mysterious council and by what democratic means that is moral and just will they be anointed, er, appointed - same thing actually.

Then you wrote:

This is not about party lines. It's not about north and south. It is about the future of Thailand. About all of Thailand.

Once again, you and I share the same concern and focus. Yet, we couldn't disagree more.

I understand your point of view a little better now.

• You like to take things out of context to debate your point.
• And you are just point out the facts and offer no solutions, which is very well your style. Anyone can do that. No one really does that accept you, because if they thought like you, then US will still have Slavery. But I don't want to have a civil war over an issue that can be handled in a different way. Remember, this government somehow are not accountable and transparent to anyone. They abuse their power to a point of bankrupting the country. You seem to have studied the system well, can you find anything in the framework that will allow them to be accountable and transparent?

[aimbc]

Yes please go on...and what about the Rice Scheme, the water bill, the 2 trillion baht infrastructure project, the tablet. BTW, the amnesty bill, was not voluntarily rejected. It is just on hold. And it had to be forced by the public. This govt has conducted so much illegal acts that it can't be trusted.

Sorry you stated there "is absolutely NO checks and balances" (sic). I proved you wrong. I can embarass you further if you wish;

Rice Scheme?

"The National Anti-Corruption Commission is expected to wrap up its probe into alleged corruption in the government’s rice pledging scheme by mid-January."

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/probe-result-alleged-corruption-rice-scheme-expected-mid-january/

Water Bill? (presumably you mean flood management plans and funding and not your domestic water bill though the PTP are probably at fault there as well)

Details of Plans and expected expenditure here http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/19/us-thailand-flood-fb-idUSTRE80I0C320120119

"EC puts brakes on 350-billion baht water project"

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/692258-ec-puts-brakes-on-350-billion-baht-water-project/

2 Trillion Baht Infrastructure Scheme?

" 2-trillion-baht loan bill under scrutiny of charter court"

http://thaifinancialpost.com/2013/12/12/2-trillion-baht-loan-bill-under-scrutiny-of-charter-court/

So about these "Checks and Balances that Absolutely Do Not Exist".....................

Need I go on?

Do you happen to know if all the reference you made above trying to proof to me that check and balance exist for the above cases, was it before or after the protest? It seems that all your links, you mentioned had a positive impact after the protest. Am I correct? So it is working now after the protest? Where was the positive impact of check and balance back then before the protest? Maybe you should provide me that instead of just taking credit for what the protesters have done for the country. And why did it take a protest to get seriously looked at? So I guess my "Checks and Balances that Absolutely Do Not Exist" was not that far off. Maybe spot on! But again, we are not debating before congress or arguing a case in court. But if we were, I can strikeout that word.

Need I go on?

Since you asked, do you have any proof that some sort of "check and balance" would have stopped the Amnesty bill from passing senate? I recalled it was the protester that was the "check and balance" that made Senate not pass it. And it's only on hold, so it can pass again. Does that mean the protester have to come out again? Since the protesters are the check and balance? Now, I can only speak for myself, but I see a pattern here.

BTW, the water bill and and 2 trillion was already pass. I believe the 2 Trillion bill was just ready to be submitted to the king. So it very well could have been a fully functioning bill. Where the governing system was not successful in bringing these issue to light, the citizens (protesters) had to do it for them. But this is not a job for the citizens, so the check and balance must not be there or not functioning. So do we keep it the same? Is it always going to be the citizens as the "Check and Balances"

Edited January 7, 2014 by aimbc

[fish fingers]

Yes please go on...and what about the Rice Scheme, the water bill, the 2 trillion baht infrastructure project, the tablet. BTW, the amnesty bill, was not voluntarily rejected. It is just on hold. And it had to be forced by the public. This govt has conducted so much illegal acts that it can't be trusted.

Sorry you stated there "is absolutely NO checks and balances" (sic). I proved you wrong. I can embarass you further if you wish;

Rice Scheme?

"The National Anti-Corruption Commission is expected to wrap up its probe into alleged corruption in the government’s rice pledging scheme by mid-January."

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/probe-result-alleged-corruption-rice-scheme-expected-mid-january/

Water Bill? (presumably you mean flood management plans and funding and not your domestic water bill though the PTP are probably at fault there as well)

Details of Plans and expected expenditure here http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/19/us-thailand-flood-fb-idUSTRE80I0C320120119

"EC puts brakes on 350-billion baht water project"

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/692258-ec-puts-brakes-on-350-billion-baht-water-project/

2 Trillion Baht Infrastructure Scheme?

" 2-trillion-baht loan bill under scrutiny of charter court"

http://thaifinancialpost.com/2013/12/12/2-trillion-baht-loan-bill-under-scrutiny-of-charter-court/

So about these "Checks and Balances that Absolutely Do Not Exist".....................

Need I go on?

Do you happen to know if all the reference you made above trying to proof to me that check and balance exist for the above cases, was it before or after the protest? It seems that all your links, you mentioned had a positive impact after the protest. Am I correct? So it is working now after the protest? Where was the positive impact of check and balance back then before the protest? Maybe you should provide me that instead of just taking credit for what the protesters have done for the country. And why did it take a protest to get seriously looked at? So I guess my "Checks and Balances that Absolutely Do Not Exist" was not that far off. Maybe spot on! But again, we are not debating before congress or arguing a case in court. But if we were, I can strikeout that word.

Need I go on?

Since you asked, do you have any proof that some sort of "check and balance" would have stopped the Amnesty bill from passing senate? I recalled it was the protester that was the "check and balance" that made Senate not pass it. And it's only on hold, so it can pass again. Does that mean the protester have to come out again? Since the protesters are the check and balance? Now, I can only speak for myself, but I see a pattern here.

BTW, the water bill and and 2 trillion was already pass. I believe the 2 Trillion bill was just ready to be submitted to the king. So it very well could have been a fully functioning bill. Where the governing system was not successful in bringing these issue to light, the citizens (protesters) had to do it for them. But this is not a job for the citizens, so the check and balance must not be there or not functioning. So do we keep it the same? Is it always going to be the citizens as the "Check and Balances"

The backbone of the protests is the Amnesty Bill; all the upset farangs on thaivisa complaining about this elitist movement to destroy democracy, like to claim the Bill was dropped etc etc. But thats not the case, anyone with a brain knows Thaksin needs that Bill to succeed.

[Publicus]

@aimbc

You posted in full above:

I understand your point of view a little better now.

• You like to take things out of context to debate your point.
• And you are just point out the facts and offer no solutions, which is very well your style. Anyone can do that. No one really does that accept you, because if they thought like you, then US will still have Slavery. But I don't want to have a civil war over an issue that can be handled in a different way. Remember, this government somehow are not accountable and transparent to anyone. They abuse their power to a point of bankrupting the country. You seem to have studied the system well, can you find anything in the framework that will allow them to be accountable and transparent?

Wrong again, dude.

My solution is to have the constitutional election as it has been scheduled for Feb 2nd and to have it in a calm and civil environment in which insurrection is not being pressed to instead create a Feudal Council being advanced by Thailand's shameless and open autocratic elitists who would be equally as delighted to see an extra constitutional coup d'état, i.e., a military mutiny against constituted civil authority and government.

My solution is the normal order of things in a constitutional fashion absent a mob rule on the streets that cynically seeks instead to preclude the further development of democracy, rule of law, constitutionalism in Thailand.

I don't know where you are coming from in your post above to include desperately trying to associate me with slavery in the United States, which means you certainly are ignorant of my record in respect of civil rights in the US dating back to 1963.

You've certainly lost it at this point in all of this madness so your retiring from further discussion between you and I is a good idea and decision.

Time to move on.

[aimbc]

@aimbc

You posted in full above:

I understand your point of view a little better now.

• You like to take things out of context to debate your point.
• And you are just point out the facts and offer no solutions, which is very well your style. Anyone can do that. No one really does that accept you, because if they thought like you, then US will still have Slavery. But I don't want to have a civil war over an issue that can be handled in a different way. Remember, this government somehow are not accountable and transparent to anyone. They abuse their power to a point of bankrupting the country. You seem to have studied the system well, can you find anything in the framework that will allow them to be accountable and transparent?

Wrong again, dude.

My solution is to have the constitutional election as it has been scheduled for Feb 2nd and to have it in a calm and civil environment in which insurrection is not being pressed to instead create a Feudal Council being advanced by Thailand's shameless and open autocratic elitists who would be equally as delighted to see an extra constitutional coup d'état, i.e., a military mutiny against constituted civil authority and government.

My solution is the normal order of things in a constitutional fashion absent a mob rule on the streets that cynically seeks instead to preclude the further development of democracy, rule of law, constitutionalism in Thailand.

I don't know where you are coming from in your post above to include desperately trying to associate me with slavery in the United States, which means you certainly are ignorant of my record in respect of civil rights in the US dating back to 1963.

You've certainly lost it at this point in all of this madness so your retiring from further discussion between you and I is a good idea and decision.

Time to move on.

Yes time to move on. But as I said earlier in our debate, you answer was to just continue voting. And you said it was not, but now you said that it is.

Posted 2014-01-07 04:30:49

Quote

Then if this govt continue to press the resume button after the election, then people must come out again to stop the government from abusing its power and another election is called again, then be it. A viscous cycle of non-productive exercise of defending democracy. This is your answer?

@Pulicus You posted:

My answer? Thanks for asking.

My answer is that in a parliamentary system such as the Westminster System which Thailand has, the minority is sh#t out of luck.

When I posed that question to you rejected my statement, but now, you just confirmed it that my statement was correct. You want to process through the normal democratic way, but when the government is abusing the system, why would they want to fix it? So if your election goes as planed, then they will be back doing the same again. And no one can let the government abuse it's power any longer. So you answer doesn't solve the problem.

Regarding the slavery thing, I am not saying that you are for slavery. If you look at the constitution, when they posed the question of "All men are equal..." some people saw slave as property, so they were not free men. So they don't fit that definition. So in a sense it was not at all illegal. That is why the civil war was such a tragedy in US history. They couldn't talk it out, because it was so contentious. So they fought instead. But that is what I was trying to point out, that there can be flaw too, and depends who holds power will abuse the flaw. But do we keep quite and let it continue to run and take the nation to ruins? Again it's up to one ideology. And as you say, we each have our views.

But thanks for the debate. Moving on.

[daboyz1]

Regarding the slavery thing, I am not saying that you are for slavery. If you look at the constitution, when they posed the question of "All men are equal..." some people saw slave as property, so they were not free men. So they don't fit that definition. So in a sense it was not at all illegal. That is why the civil war was such a tragedy in US history. They couldn't talk it out, because it was so contentious. So they fought instead. But that is what I was trying to point out, that there can be flaw too, and depends who holds power will abuse the flaw. But do we keep quite and let it continue to run and take the nation to ruins? Again it's up to one ideology. And as you say, we each have our views.

But thanks for the debate. Moving on.

That brings up a good point. Simply because a majority of voters elects a party into office, doesn't mean that gives them carte blanche to do whatever they want. I.E. pardoning your brother of all crimes. They tried to pull the wool over the people's eyes at 5 am and now they're paying for it. Now little sis acts all shocked with tears in her eyes wondering why this is happening.