Abducting my own son

[emibel1]

Hi there!

After 7 years together my son's mother has gone away, back to her mother's town somewhere in Esan, and has taken our son with her.

Facts: We are not married. My son has 2 nationalities and 2 passports (farang and Thai). I have those passports with me. I have the original birth certificate with me, in which I figure as the father. Mother has just left without any talking or agreement. We have had no conversation about the custody, only "I'm leaving and taking our son with me".

My son's name is exactly same as mine (name and surname). My son and I have traveled several times together back to Europe before. He has even attended some school there, is registered in the social security there and is also registered as resident there.

So I plan to drive to this village in Esan with the excuse of visiting him (which the mother agrees), put him in the car, drive back to Suvarnabhumi and leave the same day.

Now...what are the chances that I will be forced to return the kid to Thailand and that I will even get in troubles facing extradition to Thailand under kidnapping charges?

I would appreciate coments.

[Morden]

I think that you should consult a lawyer. Get it wrong and your son could be involved in an international battle for custody. Would you want that for him?

Would your son want to live with you in your own country or would he prefer to live in Thailand? Would he want to suffer the emotional trauma of being used in a fight between his mother and his father? What difficulties might he face restarting his education abroad?

If you ponder on your son's present and future wants, needs and wellbeing you may be able to build a longer list for yourself.

[emibel1]

Thanks for your reply. Most sensible. But as the matter of fact, I have considered all that already and I came to the conclusion that for his future it would be much better if he gets educated abroad rather than in the public school of a lost village somewhere in Esan. Believe me, I've been there once before to visit my X relatives and is not the place one would wish his son to be grown...

Taking him with me represents also a sacrifice for me, because I would have to take care of him on my own and probably I wouldn't be able to return to Thailand, so I would leave behind property, cars and many other assets. But I'm still willing to do it for my sons future.

He is 4 y.o. He speaks 3 languages and with this age he would be able to catch up in the farang country.

My only worries are the fact that I will deprive him from his mother love, and that (and this is what I asked in the forum) we could face legal consecuences.

[benalibina]

I think that you should consult a lawyer. Get it wrong and your son could be involved in an international battle for custody. Would you want that for him?

Would your son want to live with you in your own country or would he prefer to live in Thailand? Would he want to suffer the emotional trauma of being used in a fight between his mother and his father? What difficulties might he face restarting his education abroad?

If you ponder on your son's present and future wants, needs and wellbeing you may be able to build a longer list for yourself.

Your points would be more applicable in a more civilized country and if the kid is older than the likely max of 7 years of age. What does the kid know ?

[nontabury]

1/It depends if your own country is a signature to The Hague convention, and if it upholds that agreement. 2/ in some countries such as the UK there are groups( financed by the tax payer) who will assist your wife in any way possible to obtain a court order, forcing you to return your child to her. In other European countries, such as Germany there are no such organisations,and I'm not sure if the governments of those counties would strictly abide by the rules.

I think the first thing you should do is to think where your child would be best to be brought up.

There are many things to take into consideration. Who will take care of the child, what educational option will be available, are just two amongst many.

[Morden]

Thanks for your reply. Most sensible. But as the matter of fact, I have considered all that already and I came to the conclusion that for his future it would be much better if he gets educated abroad rather than in the public school of a lost village somewhere in Esan. Believe me, I've been there once before to visit my X relatives and is not the place one would wish his son to be grown...

Taking him with me represents also a sacrifice for me, because I would have to take care of him on my own and probably I wouldn't be able to return to Thailand, so I would leave behind property, cars and many other assets. But I'm still willing to do it for my sons future.

He is 4 y.o. He speaks 3 languages and with this age he would be able to catch up in the farang country.

My only worries are the fact that I will deprive him from his mother love, and that (and this is what I asked in the forum) we could face legal consecuences.

I can see your point of view and sympathise with you regarding the situation you are in.

Your son's age and language ability indicate that integration into a Western culture may not be a problem to him. There remains, though, the emotional trauma that he may suffer. Perhaps, in the long run, it may be the better course.

I would guess that an attempt to get legal custody here might end with his mother winning. A lawyer's opinion would, I still suggest, be the right thing to do before acting. You might also attempt to get a legal opinion in your own country. In addition to the risk of a custody battle, you might be faced with having to prove that you can take care of him alone, especially if you work when you get back.

Might you have a problem at the passport check here? Perhaps not if you and he have travelled to Europe alone in the past. I assume that the stamps on his European passport are in order for a departure. The last thing you would want is your son to be taken away from you and you extradited.

I wish you and your son well. You must be going through a very bad time.

[GuestHouse]

I suggest the OP reads Scott's post on child abduction, takes not that custody can be got, that the legal system is not against foreigners and takes note too of the hurt and harm that child abduction causes.

[Mario2008]

You would be guilty of kidnapping.

Under Thai law you do not have any parental rights until you legitimise the child, for which you have to go to court. At that time you can also get parental rights together with the mother.

I understand that you want to live in Thailand so it is better to try and settle the custody in Thailand. If you take the child to Europe it will be kidnapping and only the place where you have to fight the custody with the mother will change, while you will have seem to have taken the law in your own hands. Judges don't like that, giving you less chance.

Try to work things out with the mother, she is willing to let you visit the child so that is a good start. if you can't work things out go through a Thai court. You will become the legal father without any difficulty, the mother can at that time object to you getting parental rights together with her but in light of that yu have contact with your child and have travelled with the child etc I see no reason why a judge woudn't grant you parental rights. The only question is how much time the judge awards each parent.

Since you are talking about isaan, I would recommend contacting isaanlawyers. They have a good reputation regarding family law and can give you some good advice.

[eezergood]

Convince her to legitimise your son, tell her the UK govt will give you money if he is your son, then you will not ne guilty of kidnapping as he will be 'your' son.

[nontabury]

Convince her to legitimise your son, tell her the UK govt will give you money if he is your son, then you will not be guilty of kidnapping as he will be 'your' son.

Agree, try and legitimise your child in the first instance,also agree with Mario2008 that you should contact e-sarn lawyers, they are very experienced, and they will lead you through any problems you may encounter, without any bullshit.

Guesthouse mentioned how upsetting this can be for your child, not only for the immediate future but also throughout it's life, unfortunately SOMETIMES it can be the lessor of two evils.

Just remember you are not important, neither is your x, it's your child who must be of paramount importance.

[prighas]

Take your son and go! Then attempt to negotiate with your wife in case she wishes to visit him - directly or through a lawyer.

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

[DiamondKing]

Why drive all the way back to Swampy ? why not go over the border to Vietienne and fly International from there, quicker easier and not what she might expect leave some clues that you are heading to Swampy and throw her off.

[bwalker1973]

1. You cannot get anybody to help you because they can and will be charged with kidnapping.

2. Because your not married you can also be charged with kidnapping.

3. If the child has left Thailand on previous occasions you be ok going through the airport.

4. If not you need a signed letter of the mother. (Get some other Thai girl to write you a letter and put her mobile number on, make sure she knows child's name and date of birth and does not know mother.)

5. First point of stop is main airport, if lives in Issan go across Lao border to Vientiane then flight to Vietnam or Singapore.

6. Once you leave Thailand you are safe.

7. Thailand are not part of the UN protection of children so you will not be chased all over the world.

8. When in UK change both yours and child's surname. That way you will have no problem.

9. Your best bet is to get the mother to spend a night in a hotel, seperate rooms take child to your room. Better on ground floor. Then when mother tucked up on her room alone go go go

10. This advice has worked for many I know in similar situations.

[maidee]

Not married = no rights

[Estrada]

In Thailand the Thai mother has the right of custody not you. You would have to get her to give you legal custody. My wife has a daughter by another Brit who was a layabout, she even paid him for the divorce. We did not have to get legal custody as custody is the mother's legal right in Thailand. Probably because so many Thai men run off after their girlfriends get pregnant.

[bigdod]

Have you tried offering the mother some form of cash settlement...? Not guaranteed to work, but over here, very likely to I'd imagine. That would then save all of the aforementioned legal hassles although you would still have to go through the process of ligitimising your son and also leave you in a position where you could continue to live here and send him to international school..??

[Neeeko]

I can't think of any good advice, but I wish you the best of luck in this situation!

[BrooklynNY]

I feel for you. I have read many posts by Thai women who have children with foreign men that most of them are concerned about how to financial gain from child's father by keeping the child/children all to herself as a sole custody right. Only few mothers who are financially secured, they would not care to demand for child support from the child's father but to some women for being a sole custody is an advantage to demand for child support and most likely will be granted by the family judge whether the child support law suit held in Thailand or in the country you live in.

At this moment, your son is like a commodity (trophy child) to your ex g/f and her family for being look kreung that your ex wants to enjoy him while he is still young. Your ex knows that she could use her son to financial gain from you as long as she has the control of her son is in Thailand. Supposedly you take her to court for a full custody of your son, you would probably not win because Thai judge most likely is in a favor to the mother. She has the upper hand as long she has the son with her.

If I were the father of the son who was in this situation, I would do the same thing as you have planned.

Good luck.

[simple1]

Thailand is a signatory to and ratified the Hague Convention on Child Abduction & an overview for enforcement in Thai legislation at the URL below. The legislation may have been updated from the date of the review in 07/2012

http://abpworldgroup.com/2012/07/14/parental-abduction-thailand-child-abduction-law-2/

Edited January 8, 2014 by simple1

[SPIKECM]

It is a nightmare for you I know. A friend of mine did exactly the same thing and his son is doing very well in the UK now. His mother though was neglecting him badly and there is no doubt that he did the right thing. Your situation is different in that the mother cares for her son. The most obvious thing is for you to offer her money to take custody of your son. You can get Amphur custody or a Provincial Court custody agreement. At less than 8 years old the Amphuer custody (if you can get one) isn't worth much legally and the Provincial Court custody will take time and a solicitor. Forget fighting her for custody. You won't win. I tried for one year and had to give up before it killed me. I just waited (well, 8 years it took me) until her mother agreed a cash settlement for me to gain custody. She's been with me now for only three months and I don't need any legal documents now. She'd bite and kick and scratch and scream if anyone tried to take her back to where she came from. Her mother for her part respects a deal. She hasn't called her daughter once in the three months I've had her.

The trouble is that your wife will have the extended family to look after your kid and it may be a long wait for you if you don't do as you suggest.

The decision for you is that your son goes to a brain washing school where he will be taught to be happy with his not-a-lot in life, to sing and to dance and never ever dare to think outside of the box. Or your alternative. Between that and your own personal sacrifice in life looking after him, I can appreciate that this is not a happy time for you.

[SPIKECM]

No matter the legalities, by the time the child was "returned" it would be an absolute trauma for him. As Isaan people have a healthy disdain for lawyers and courts there would very unlikely be any recourse to this channel.

Thailand is a signatory to and ratified the Hague Convention on Child Abduction & an overview for enforcement in Thai legislation at the URL below. The legislation may have been updated from the date of the review in 07/2012

http://abpworldgroup.com/2012/07/14/parental-abduction-thailand-child-abduction-law-2/

Edited January 8, 2014 by SPIKECM

[ericthai]

This is a difficult place to be. If you take your son it will be kidnapping which can cause you all type of problems including not being able to get custody of your son in the future.

Your best bet is to work with your wife. See your son on a set schedule. Then speak to your wife that you feel it's best he goes to the UK for education and try and work out he comes home for summers. To have both his mother and father in his life is best. It seems if she is allowing you to see your son not all is lost and she seems to be a reasonable person.

As stated best is to speak to a lawyer to review all your options. This is a big decision that will effect you and your sons life forever so nothing to rush, take you time and make sure you are doing what is best for your son and not what you want. Good Luck, and please post back your end results.

[realenglish1]

I would think the mother may be using the child as a pawn. In reality she will give him up if you offer her money. She knows you can give the child a better life in the UK so she is just being typically Thai and I am sure if you offer money to take him to the UK with her having rights to visit then she will agree

Try this abduction is not the answer You and your child will be looking over their shoulder your whole life if you abduct. Try money especially if they are poor and isaan

[yourauntbob]

You need to really think about this and set a side your personal feelings for your ex. IMO, it really depends on what type of woman you are dealing with here. If she is a good woman, resonable, hard working, loving (to the kid), then work with her on this. If she is kind and caring to your kid, then you taking them away is no better than her taking them away from you. She has a right to see her kid, and her kid has a right to be with her. If she is an unreasonalbe, unloving, lazy peice of sh!t nut job or would mistreat the kid in any way; grab and dash. If this is just a meal ticket to her and the kid would be set back years of development you owe it to your kid to say screw the law and do whats best for your family.

the big word is IF , What kind of woman is she?

Edited January 8, 2014 by yourauntbob

[epicstuff]

Thanks for your reply. Most sensible. But as the matter of fact, I have considered all that already and I came to the conclusion that for his future it would be much better if he gets educated abroad rather than in the public school of a lost village somewhere in Esan. Believe me, I've been there once before to visit my X relatives and is not the place one would wish his son to be grown...

Taking him with me represents also a sacrifice for me, because I would have to take care of him on my own and probably I wouldn't be able to return to Thailand, so I would leave behind property, cars and many other assets. But I'm still willing to do it for my sons future.

He is 4 y.o. He speaks 3 languages and with this age he would be able to catch up in the farang country.

My only worries are the fact that I will deprive him from his mother love, and that (and this is what I asked in the forum) we could face legal consecuences.

I'm sure if you are willing to leave behind property and vehicles you would probably be able to arrange with the mum to trade.... she gets the property and stuff you get the kid then no laws broken and everybody happy...

[epicstuff]

Thanks for your reply. Most sensible. But as the matter of fact, I have considered all that already and I came to the conclusion that for his future it would be much better if he gets educated abroad rather than in the public school of a lost village somewhere in Esan. Believe me, I've been there once before to visit my X relatives and is not the place one would wish his son to be grown...

Taking him with me represents also a sacrifice for me, because I would have to take care of him on my own and probably I wouldn't be able to return to Thailand, so I would leave behind property, cars and many other assets. But I'm still willing to do it for my sons future.

He is 4 y.o. He speaks 3 languages and with this age he would be able to catch up in the farang country.

My only worries are the fact that I will deprive him from his mother love, and that (and this is what I asked in the forum) we could face legal consecuences.

I'm sure if you are willing to leave behind property and vehicles you would probably be able to arrange with the mum to trade.... she gets the property and stuff you get the kid then no laws broken and everybody happy...

[Ulic]

Talk to the mother, don't know the reason why she left but it may be possible to buy her off. A small lump some

and monthly payment. Come to an arrangement. Don't kidnap and run off with him. Stay in Thailand which is

what you want to do anyway. Best of luck in whatever you decide to do.

[hgma]

All stories have 2 sides to consider, except when children are involved.

Children are often more capable of making decisions of their own (5+) is my honest opinion.

And for sure doesn't want to give up any of you, so indeed seek reality lawyer and sort out whats best for the kid.

The fact that a passport is issued means that your country already recognized your child as legitimate son or daughter.

Thai law i do not know ...a Foreign Lawyer in Thailand does!!

All the best, to all parties involved.

[Showbags]

Thanks for your reply. Most sensible. But as the matter of fact, I have considered all that already and I came to the conclusion that for his future it would be much better if he gets educated abroad rather than in the public school of a lost village somewhere in Esan. Believe me, I've been there once before to visit my X relatives and is not the place one would wish his son to be grown...

Taking him with me represents also a sacrifice for me, because I would have to take care of him on my own and probably I wouldn't be able to return to Thailand, so I would leave behind property, cars and many other assets. But I'm still willing to do it for my sons future.

He is 4 y.o. He speaks 3 languages and with this age he would be able to catch up in the farang country.

My only worries are the fact that I will deprive him from his mother love, and that (and this is what I asked in the forum) we could face legal consecuences.

I'm sure if you are willing to leave behind property and vehicles you would probably be able to arrange with the mum to trade.... she gets the property and stuff you get the kid then no laws broken and everybody happy...

She will get all that anyway...so why will she be bothered to trade ?

[FiestyFarang]

Is such action necessary? You explain you have money therefore can you talk to the mother and say you would like to put your son in private day school in Thailand near you and she can have him in the holidays or some other more reasonable solution. Also remember even with the possible criminal implications what will your son think when he grows up that you kidnapped him. He will almost certainly for natural reasons want to see his mother and if he comes back to Thailand to live will you be able to enter the country, or if you did would you be placed in jail? Offer to "take care" by giving her money if she let's you have the above.

Edited January 8, 2014 by FiestyFarang