Marriage contracts.. are they worth anything?

[RoyEngland]

What's people experience with having martial contracts? Can you protect assets with a UK wedding?

[Mario2008]

In Thailand you can protect your asstes with it perfectly, in the UK it is a bit more difficult as the High Court just seem to be starting to recognise such contracts so there is no clear rule yet. Nrmally protecting your asstes is Ok, but completely leaving your spouse in the cold not.

It all depends on where you want to protect your assets with a prenuptial agreement.

Under Thai law everything you had before the marriage is and stays your upon divorce by default, both parties only share what was acquired during the marriage (which includes debts).

[RoyEngland]

In Thailand you can protect your asstes with it perfectly, in the UK it is a bit more difficult as the High Court just seem to be starting to recognise such contracts so there is no clear rule yet. Nrmally protecting your asstes is Ok, but completely leaving your spouse in the cold not.

It all depends on where you want to protect your assets with a prenuptial agreement.

Under Thai law everything you had before the marriage is and stays your upon divorce by default, both parties only share what was acquired during the marriage (which includes debts).

Thanks Mario. The only things I'm looking to protect is my home of residence and future inheritance all within the UK with a UK prenuptial. Would this be within the law and sustainable?

[Mario2008]

Your current assets are already protected under Thai law. Your future inheritence can be protected by the person willing it to you making out the inheritence specifically to you and state that it will not fall into the common property of the marriage. otherwise a prenuptial in Thailand.

But as that is probably an inheritance in the UK, best to ask advice about how to go about that in the UK. Will etc are best made in the contry where the property is located.

[RoyEngland]

Your current assets are already protected under Thai law. Your future inheritence can be protected by the person willing it to you making out the inheritence specifically to you and state that it will not fall into the common property of the marriage. otherwise a prenuptial in Thailand.

But as that is probably an inheritance in the UK, best to ask advice about how to go about that in the UK. Will etc are best made in the contry where the property is located.

Thanks Mario, here's hoping the same applies to the UK. Since the Radmacher case things have changes lightly.

[rct99q]

Just curious then as reading some papers on UK marriages and such....it appears that a person would be better off getting married here (in thailand). As in the UK and other places are more likely to distribute the wealth to the spouse regardless of when it was acquired (ie before marriage etc)...

[Mario2008]

I believe that waht you keep what you had before the marriage is the norm in many if not most countries, as is the rule you can will something to a person with the provision that it doesn't fall in the communal property.

What is true in many countries is that they will not allow a person to be left out in the cold upon divorce.

[RoyEngland]

Just curious then as reading some papers on UK marriages and such....it appears that a person would be better off getting married here (in thailand). As in the UK and other places are more likely to distribute the wealth to the spouse regardless of when it was acquired (ie before marriage etc)...

I'm hoping you can protect it with a UK prenuptial, however having one you can use is a different matter if you're both living in the UK.

[7by7]

In the UK a marriage is lawful if it is lawful in the country where it took place; this has been the case since 1899.

If you divorce in the UK it doesn't matter where you married and UK law would apply.

Pre nups are not legally recognised in the UK and so cannot be enforced. However, the court may take the terms of one into consideration when considering the division of assets, maintenance etc.

See SUMMARY OF THE CURRENT LAW.*

See also Money and property when a relationship ends from Gov.uk.

Where your assets came from, e.g. an inheritance, is irrelevant as is which of those assets you owned before the marriage.

If you divorced in Thailand then Thai law would apply.

However, your wife could sue you in the UK for her share of your UK assets.

See Overseas divorce disaster: Agbaje v Agbaje from this document*.

* Note; these are commercial sites which I am using as sources of information. I am not recommending them nor their services. Other lawyers are available.

[DoctorG]

I thought this thread was about karate.

[Donnie Brasco]

I thought this thread was about karate.

More like Thai Kwan Doe, actually.

[Suradit69]

I thought this thread was about karate.

Per the emailed link:

What's people experience with having martial contracts?

Yes, although in some cases the distinction between martial arts and marital arts is probably not that great.

[rct99q]

I believe that waht you keep what you had before the marriage is the norm in many if not most countries, as is the rule you can will something to a person with the provision that it doesn't fall in the communal property.

What is true in many countries is that they will not allow a person to be left out in the cold upon divorce.

Certainly agree. But the courts have wide discretion (if an agreement can not be reached before going to court) on what is the definition of being "left out in the cold". The following link for divorce aid in UK is in my opinion a good reference (in layman's terms) on what could happen.

http://www.divorceaid.co.uk/financial/index2.html

[klauskunkel]

I thought this thread was about karate.

I thought he wanted to hire some mercenaries...

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Under Thai law everything you had before the marriage is and stays your upon divorce by default, both parties only share what was acquired during the marriage (which includes debts).

I'm not a UK person, but rather an American... But the issues here parallel those I have in another thread on marriage issues for Americans.

Yes, Thailand law provides for separate property prior to marriage to remain separate during and after any marriage. But, does Thailand family law and court jurisdiction apply to assets held OUTSIDE Thailand, such as in the UK or U.S.??? Or in this OP's instance, override very different laws that apply in the UK?

I don't know...but I'd sure like to know.

Same with prenuptual agreements. Yes, a person can do a prenup agreement in Thailand. But is that legal document going to have any meaning for assets held outside Thailand? And is a UK court, where prenups apparently aren't considered legal, going to pay any attention to a Thailand prenup?

And, from what 7By7 posted above, it certainly seems that UK family law doesn't currently honor the same "separate pre-marital property" concept as applies in Thailand.

All the assets of the marriage whether in the sole name of one or other of the spouses or joint names and whether acquired before, during or after the marriage are susceptible to the court’s discretionary jurisdiction.

Although there is no entitlement to any fixed percentage share when a marriage breaks down certainly after a long marriage it would be unusual not to divide all the family assets equally and to make an order for maintenance to a former wife, which often continues indefinitely unless she remarries or until one of the couple dies. This is known as a “joint lives” spousal maintenance order.

And likewise, the UK divorce link posted by RCT above:

What is the law regarding the division of assets?

There are no laws or rules about how assets should be divided. There is no absolute law as the 50/50 law. There are no rules about how much ongoing money, if any, should be paid to a spouse, wife or husband. The law isn't there to penalise one for bad behaviour. Many people think that because the other left, the law will be more favourable to the other. This is not so. The court does not apportion blame except in extreme cases.

Many people also assume that you both get half of the house if it is in joint names. No, this is not true. The court has wide powers to make financial orders as it sees fit. The court can divide assets and even order a property to be signed over to the other spouse even if that name was not on the original deeds. It can make orders regarding children, pensions, businesses and trust funds. Courts have wide and far reaching powers which can be enforced.

Edited January 11, 2014 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[ozyjon]

In Thailand you can protect your assets with it perfectly, in the UK it is a bit more difficult as the High Court just seem to be starting to recognize such contracts so there is no clear rule yet. Normally protecting your assets is OK, but completely leaving your spouse in the cold not.

It all depends on where you want to protect your assets with a prenuptial agreement.

Under Thai law everything you had before the marriage is and stays your upon divorce by default, both parties only share what was acquired during the marriage (which includes debts).

Exactly the same law in Australia now (thank god)

[ozyjon]

Could someone start a new thread

Not married - living together,, the implications and laws ?

Thank you

[Mario2008]

Could someone start a new thread

Not married - living together,, the implications and laws ?

Thank you

You can start a new thread on this yourself with any questions you have.

[wolfmanjack]

From what I understand the property in Thailand is covered by thai law and the property in another country is covered by that countries law for the most part. After all there is no way a state court in the USA could enforce a judgement on property in Thailand and vice versa. However the court could take into consideration the total properties owned when making their decision.

I also want to point out that even though the property owned prior to marriage remains the property of the original owner during and after the marriage the revenue generated from that property may not. For example the rent received from a property owned before marriage is community property if it is received during the marriage even though the property itself isn't.

[Mario2008]

There are several treaties concerning marriage and the applicable law. Normally the law of the country where one is married applies to the division of assets in case of divorce, regardless of where the divorce is and judges recognizes each others rulings.

It all depend on the country where gets married and where one gets a divorce and which treaties they signed.

For the US an additional problem is that marriage is governed by state law, so it depend on the laws of the state in question.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

From what I understand the property in Thailand is covered by thai law and the property in another country is covered by that countries law for the most part. After all there is no way a state court in the USA could enforce a judgement on property in Thailand and vice versa. However the court could take into consideration the total properties owned when making their decision.

Actually, that's kind of true... I've been reading a lot on the subject lately, and if you really want to get a headache, read the attorney publications on trying to get a U.S. court judgment enforced in Thailand or getting a Thai judgment enforced in the U.S. There is no reciprocal treaty between the two countries on this subject.

So, it still can be done, but as best as I can distill down the advice given, basically, the moving party has to start off with a new case in the second country and then introduce as evidence the ruling issued in the original verdict country.

Provided the process of service and other procedural issues have been complied with in a manner that satisfies the court in the second country, and unless there's something really against the grain from the original country's court ruling, supposedly, the second country court will be inclined to go along.

But, at least in the U.S., I believe, it also does require the moving party to be physically present and have some residence status there in order to bring an action in state court. For example, I was reading, in order to file for divorce in Californa or Texas State courts, at least one of the parties has to be a qualified resident there, which means having lived there in state for the prior few months at a minimum.

So, an agrieved spouse from Thailand supposedly can't just remote hire a U.S. attorney or pop over on a tourist visa in order to initiate a state court action. But all in all, having read more than I wish to on the subject, it sounds pretty messy and complicated....with no sure guarantee of the outcome.

And nowhere in all that I could find to read, did I find any mention of an actual case about a Thai family law / divorce property order getting enforced against property in the U.S. or the reverse, a U.S. divorce court judgment getting enforced against property in Thailand.

I also want to point out that even though the property owned prior to marriage remains the property of the original owner during and after the marriage the revenue generated from that property may not. For example the rent received from a property owned before marriage is community property if it is received during the marriage even though the property itself isn't.

In the Thai family law code, at least in English translation, they call it the "fruits" of the pre-marital property/assets, and the post-marriage fruits of those separate, pre-marital assets are considered community property.

Now, from what I read, for example, you could renew a bank CD or sell one property and buy another with separate funds and keep the title as separate. And as long as you don't co-mingle those with any community property accounts, then the new property stays separate property. But I'm guessing any profit on the sale itself would become community property.

But as with your example about rent from a separate property owned prior to marriage, the property ownership would remain separate, but the income earned from the property post-marriage would be community property.

I'd assume, but haven't confirmed yet, that community asset "fruits" in Thailand would also be deemed to be things like the gains in a stock market account or dividends paid post-marriage.