Protesters mobilise ahead of planned Thai capital 'shutdown'

[Ozymandias]

You are incorredt. The majority did vote red. You are simply wrong.

Red was not an option in the election. You are simply wrong.

Nice try. A failed one, but a nice try. They got the majority and abused it, but they got the majority. Live with it. Have a nice life, and learn numbers instead of ideologies.....

No the Peu Thai Party did NOT get the majority. They got 48%. Which means the majority didn't vote for Peu Thai.

True majorities are very rare in democracies for the simple reason that there are usually more than two parties polling candidates. An example: Margaret Thatcher won consecutive elections in 1979, 1983 and 1987 without the majority of the electorate voting for her (usually low 40s % if I recall). She was also a very divisive figure (though not corrupt, at least not in the sense that Thaksin and Suthep are, although moral corruption is another issue). People at my end of the political spectrum absolutely loathed her, but conservatives thought her the best thing since sliced bread and even I have to admit that she did make a few changes that were beneficial for the country in the long term (I wonder how many yellows & reds can say that of their respective nemesis?)

The point, however, is that whilst I accept the very obvious differences between Thai poolitics now and UK politics of the 1980s, as much as I despised Thatcher I accepted that she had a political mandate based on the fact that more voted for her party than any other. In a mature democracy, with a mature electorate, there is a clear understanding that disrespecting the majority vote (in this case the majority party vote) and trying to oust an elected government undermines the whole concept of democracy, makes a mockery of the system and ensures only instability and political anarchy.

I realise that Thailand has a whole raft of problems it needs to deal with, namely corruption, but history shows us that they are most effectively tackled within a democratic, accountable process, not in the shadows by unelected 'officials' who would by definition be unaccountable to the public. Talk to many Thais, in any case, and you will discover that they accept that corruption is a part of Thai life. No amount of 'reform' will eradicate it unless the culture of acceptance is tackled and, unless you're particuarly naive, you cannot expect reform efforts to be led by anybody with any history of benefitting from such corrupt practices. Good luck finding Thai politicians without their fingers in the pie.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Ozymandias

[Mackie]

With a turnout of 75.03%, populist Pheu Thai Party won a majority with 265 seats. Its leader Yingluck Shinawatra became the first female prime minister in the history of Thailand. The Democrat Party therefore became the main opposition party with a total of 159 seats.

What's that to do with the topic of this thread? As a matter of fact 32% of eligible voters voted for PTP.

Just got home from the city centre. The crowd started gathering around the MBK. The road is closed. I guess the whole road

in front of Chula university is going to be one big campsite tomorrow.

[Ozymandias]

There is a sense of excitement and empowerment long over due among the many on the streets who have decided to join this movement, and in the coming days. It is good that the administration has decided that the police will be unarmed, as there is no scientific reason why whistles should pose a threat to this administration or any other, for that matter. It is a cause for celebration that the people have decided to express themselves against an administration that - for those that are blessed with the gift of sight - has been mired in the worst forms of corruption practises. The people have finally said enough is enough. A resigned passivity had prevailed for so long, and a lot of politicians have gotten enormously rich as a result of that passivity - not to mention a certain individual in Dubai - certainly under what most Thais would comprehend as a standard of living. But that is about to change. And the shifting sands of change have reached these shores. And they usher the country into an era of public input and involvement, accountability and reform. For those who desperately want to cling to the monolithic importance of this particular election, take comfort. It may very well occur. And then when it becomes apparent that the parliament is woefully underpopulated with MPs and would be unable to convene, leaving the administration in perpetual dissolution and unable to do anything, perhaps you can enlighten us as to how that will take the country forward.

I refer you to my initial post on this thread. Suthep is as corrupt, if not more so, than his nemesis.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Ozymandias

[robblok]

True majorities are very rare in democracies for the simple reason that there are usually more than two parties polling candidates. An example: Margaret Thatcher won consecutive elections in 1979, 1983 and 1987 without the majority of the electorate voting for her (usually low 40s % if I recall). She was also a very divisive figure (though not corrupt, at least not in the sense that Thaksin and Suthep are, although moral corruption is another issue). People at my end of the political spectrum absolutely loathed her, but conservatives thought her the nest thing since sliced bread and even if I have to admit that she did make a few changes that were beneficial for the country in the long term (I wonder how many yellows & reds can say that of their respective nemesis?)

The point, however, is that whilst I accept the very obvious differences between Thai poolitics now and UK politics of the 1980s, as much as I despised Thatcher I accepted that she had a political mandate based on the fact that more voted for her party than any other. In a mature democracy, with a mature electorate, there is a clear understanding that disrespecting the majority vote (in this case the majority party vote) and trying to oust an elected government undermines the whole concept of democracy, makes a mockery of the system and ensures only instability and poolitical anarchy.

I realise that Thailand has a whole raft of problems it needs to deal with, namely corruption, but history shows us that they are most effectively tackled within a democratic, accountable process, not in the shadows by unelected 'officials' who would by definition be unaccountable to the public. Talk to many Thais, in any case, and you will discover that they accept that corruption is a part of Thai life. No amount of 'reform' will eradicate it unless the culture of acceptance is tackled and, unless you're particuarly naive, you cannot expect reform efforts to be led by anybody with any history of benefitting from such corrupt practices. Good luck finding Thai politicians without their fingers in the pie.

Actually the laws need to be in place to tackle corruption. They clearly are not in place and an updated set of laws and a watchdog with large teeth would help.

The reason people accepted Tatcher is that she had to play by the rules. Here the rules are broken and corruption is too obviousl

I have given the example of the red MP that voted for multiple people and denied this in court and was proven to lie (no consequences) Stuff like that enrages people.

Now Suthep is talking about removing the statue of limitations on corruption, an other great idea

If they can do something about the defamation laws so real investigative reporters could evolve here.

A serious overhaul of the laws making it harder for a government to be corrupt would benefit everyone.

I certainly don't believe Suthep is an angel, i believe he realizes his friends wont be in power for a while so its better to make sure the other side can't steal too much money. That would be a win for Thailand.

Replacing one corrupt government by an other would not be a win and would not be supported by me.

[Ozymandias]

With a turnout of 75.03%, populist Pheu Thai Party won a majority with 265 seats. Its leader Yingluck Shinawatra became the first female prime minister in the history of Thailand. The Democrat Party therefore became the main opposition party with a total of 159 seats.

What's that to do with the topic of this thread? As a matter of fact 32% of eligible voters voted for PTP.

Just got home from the city centre. The crowd started gathering around the MBK. The road is closed. I guess the whole road

in front of Chula university is going to be one big campsite tomorrow.

If you're reducing the % who voted for PT from 48% (of voters) to 32% (of turnout) then what happens to the Dems 35% (of voters)? I'm guessing 19% voted Dem. This means less than 1 in 5 voted for the party that now want to oust the government and replace it with an unelected body (except maybe Korn, who seems to be the only one with any principle in the party at the moment). Given that there won't be 1 in 5 of Thais on the streets tomorrow (sorry Suthep, but you won't get 4 million) this suggests an even poorer claim to the 'will of the people' than even I imagined.

I think you just shot yourself in the foot.

[monkeycountry]

I read part of Suthep's proposal in other news today.

Apparently he wants this "people assembly" which is to propose reforms, to not include any politicians.

The assembly should do their job in about a year, after which an election is to be held.

Further, anyone on the assembly, will automatically be banned from politics for 5 years, preventing those making the reforms from being elected at the subsequent election.

I am no fan of Suthep, but that all sounds good to me!

[thailiketoo]

With a turnout of 75.03%, populist Pheu Thai Party won a majority with 265 seats. Its leader Yingluck Shinawatra became the first female prime minister in the history of Thailand. The Democrat Party therefore became the main opposition party with a total of 159 seats.

What's that to do with the topic of this thread? As a matter of fact 32% of eligible voters voted for PTP.

Just got home from the city centre. The crowd started gathering around the MBK. The road is closed. I guess the whole road

in front of Chula university is going to be one big campsite tomorrow.

If you're reducing the % who voted for PT from 48% (of voters) to 32% (of turnout) then what happens to the Dems 35% (of voters)? I'm guessing 19% voted Dem. This means less than 1 in 5 voted for the party that now want to oust the government and replace it with an unelected body (except maybe Korn, who seems to be the only one with any principle in the party at the moment). Given that there won't be 1 in 5 of Thais on the streets tomorrow (sorry Suthep, but you won't get 4 million) this suggests an even poorer claim to the 'will of the people' than even I imagined.

I think you just shot yourself in the foot.

The PTP won the most House of Representative 265 seats at 53%. This is indeed considered a landslide and a majority. From another thread.

Seems to me every thread a dummy is chosen to try and espouse the belief that the elections were won without a majority. This is of course false and the usual defenders post all the accurate date. Yet still there is one fall guy per thread that tries to post the same nonsense about the party in power not having won a majority. I wonder why?

[robblok]

Seems none of the PTP supporters want to go into measures to reduce corruption and the fact that their side has did not propose anything that would help.

They all seem to want to play a numbers game instead of admitting that corruption should be tackled and that should be done before any election.

I mean who would not be enraged if you look at that red MP voting for multiple people.. then in court denying it and being proven a liar but NOTHING happens. If that is not an example that the laws need to be changed then what is ?? Could anyone answer me that or are you going to keep ignoring this.

[Centrum]

The reality is that it won't be the numbers or the percentage of voters that hit the streets tomorrow that is important.

It's the effect they will have.

They've already forced the 'democratically' elected government to dissolve parliament.

Now if you had the 'will of the people' firmly behind you, you would never cede government. You would stand by democratic principles and remain in power for those who elected you.

Why make concessions?

[robblok]

I read part of Suthep's proposal in other news today.

Apparently he wants this "people assembly" which is to propose reforms, to not include any politicians.

The assembly should do their job in about a year, after which an election is to be held.

Further, anyone on the assembly, will automatically be banned from politics for 5 years, preventing those making the reforms from being elected at the subsequent election.

I am no fan of Suthep, but that all sounds good to me!

Seems like a great proposal

I also like his idea of removing the statue of limitation on corruption.

All great proposals that would benefit Thailand, does not sound like a dictator wanting the power himself.

What has the other side said about tackling corruption ? As I mentioned before no statue of limitation on corruption would be great. But Taksin would not go for it as he has more then a few cases waiting for him he rather have them go away in time. His puppet would of course not do anything that could benefit the country like removing the statue of limitation.. it would hurt her big brother.

Just like the amnesty was only for him and brought us all here.

[Mackie]

With a turnout of 75.03%, populist Pheu Thai Party won a majority with 265 seats. Its leader Yingluck Shinawatra became the first female prime minister in the history of Thailand. The Democrat Party therefore became the main opposition party with a total of 159 seats.

What's that to do with the topic of this thread? As a matter of fact 32% of eligible voters voted for PTP.

Just got home from the city centre. The crowd started gathering around the MBK. The road is closed. I guess the whole road

in front of Chula university is going to be one big campsite tomorrow.

If you're reducing the % who voted for PT from 48% (of voters) to 32% (of turnout) then what happens to the Dems 35% (of voters)? I'm guessing 19% voted Dem. This means less than 1 in 5 voted for the party that now want to oust the government and replace it with an unelected body (except maybe Korn, who seems to be the only one with any principle in the party at the moment). Given that there won't be 1 in 5 of Thais on the streets tomorrow (sorry Suthep, but you won't get 4 million) this suggests an even poorer claim to the 'will of the people' than even I imagined.

I think you just shot yourself in the foot.

As I said that's not the topic of this thread. I simply stated statistics. I don't know where did you study Maths mate, but I've got to tell you that you suck at it. Basically, you divide the number of acquired votes with the number of registered voters and you get the figure. So PTP got around 1/3 of all eligible voters votes, Democrats got around 1/4. Why would I shoot myself in the foot? All I wanted to prove is that PTP does not represent the whole country. One third.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Mackie

[thailiketoo]

As I said that's not the topic of this thread. I simply stated statistics. I don't know where did you study Maths mate, but I've got to tell you that you suck at it. Basically, you divide the number of acquired votes with the number of registered voters and you get the figure. So PTP got around 1/3 of all eligible voters votes, Democrats got around 1/4. Why would I shoot myself in the foot? All I wanted to prove is that PTP does not represent the whole country. One third.

From Geriatrickid another thread.

The government of Thailand does indeed represent a majority of Thailand's electorate. This is because the government is comprised of 5 distinct politcal "groups" representing a cross section of the country. The representation is as follows;;

PTP - 265 seats @ 53%

Chartthaipattana -19 seats @ 3.9%

Chart Pattana Puea Pandin - 7 seats @ 1.4%

Palang Con -7 seats @ 1.4%

Independent- 1 @ .1% approx.

This comes in at 59.8%

[dinom]

Answer to yourself on 1 question, honestly. If you could make 1 person from this circus to magically disappear and calm things down in this country and let it move forward, who would that be? Honestly.

Thaksin

[Ozymandias]

The reality is that it won't be the numbers or the percentage of voters that hit the streets tomorrow that is important.

It's the effect they will have.

They've already forced the 'democratically' elected government to dissolve parliament.

Now if you had the 'will of the people' firmly behind you, you would never cede government. You would stand by democratic principles and remain in power for those who elected you.

Why make concessions?

You really don't see the big picture. Clue: who do you think Suthep's backers are? It's they who scare the PT, not Suthep or the protesters.

[rametindallas]

Answer to yourself on 1 question, honestly. If you could make 1 person from this circus to magically disappear and calm things down in this country and let it move forward, who would that be? Honestly.

I'll answer where everyone can see. Dr. Thaksin Shinawatra. Without him there would be no UDD, no disruption of the 2009 ASEAN meeting in Pataya, no 2010 Ratchaprasong attempted soft coup of the Abhisit government resulting in 87 dead and many lives destroyed, no changing the constitution to give his party more power, no fake amnesty bill, disguised as reconciliation, that forgives more than 2,500 ongoing corruption cases and absolves Thaksin of all misdeeds convicted of or not yet charged, no government bankrupting Thailand with an unsustainable Rice Scheme resulting in the destruction of the agricultural segment of the Thai economy, and there certainly would be no reason for hoards of people to gather in Bangkok to follow Suthep's lead to overthrow the latest Thaksin puppet government. I could go on but that should be enough for anyone who is not a propagandist or red blind.

[bangkokheat]

shouldnt you boys be out partying instead of punching on

[rametindallas]

Can't argue with dumb people. Better let them believe they're right. Makes them feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Well, if that's the way you feel, I won't argue with you, then. Do you feel all warm and fuzzy now?

[lovetotravel]

The real question here is ...is it really worth destroying Thailand to replace one corrupt politician with another corrupt politician? I have no doubts that Thaksin is corrupt, but Suthep also is. So why destroy the country if in the end we just end up with money flowing into another corrupt pocket?

Abhisit and Suthep have already demonstrated that they had no intentions of changing the laws for the better while they were in power. They did absolutely nothing. Suthep was charged with distributing land to poor people while he was a politician in the South and the land ended up in the hands of Phuket's richest families, not with the poor people.

When the Democrat government was question about this, they dissolved parliament in order not to have to answer and subsequently lost the next elections.

I think you're missing the point of the protesters. They don't want Suthep to be the next PM. They are trying to get rid of Thaksin and all other corrupt government officials (not just politicians). Their goal is not to replace PTP with the dems.

You complain about the dems not doing anything to combat corruption during their very short term several years ago. But what about the current government who has been able to pass pretty much anything they desire, but never did anything to address corruption. Quite the contrary. Passed bills to help themselves only.

Can you provide a link to support your last statement? My understanding is that's not what happened.

[Ozymandias]

The real question here is ...is it really worth destroying Thailand to replace one corrupt politician with another corrupt politician? I have no doubts that Thaksin is corrupt, but Suthep also is. So why destroy the country if in the end we just end up with money flowing into another corrupt pocket?

Abhisit and Suthep have already demonstrated that they had no intentions of changing the laws for the better while they were in power. They did absolutely nothing. Suthep was charged with distributing land to poor people while he was a politician in the South and the land ended up in the hands of Phuket's richest families, not with the poor people.

When the Democrat government was question about this, they dissolved parliament in order not to have to answer and subsequently lost the next elections.

My God, you've convinced me.

Let's get Thaksin back before the elections, which will be postponed, and get him back in the big chair.

Give him back the money he stole, let him have his land, overturn his conviction, let him loose on another 2,000+ extra judicial killings to eradicate drugs, again, give him his heavy-handed approach to the situation in the South (that worked a treat last time, didn't it?), shit let's just make him ***g.

Just one question. When the red-shirts were threatening to 'destroy the country' in 2009 and 2010, and actually doing it, were you as equally vocal in your disapproval?

As far as I remember, nobody did 'destroy the country', unless you really do equate Central World with Thailand. There were other buildings set fire to, to be fair, but a number of these were suspicious in the sense that they seemed likely to be opportunistic arson for insurance money. Even some of the major fires were less than thoroughly investigated and, whiilst it is admittedly likely that some of the more extreme redshirts were behind at least some of the fires, as far as I can remember there was little if any evidence that came to light as to who was actually guilty.

Having said that, I was living off Rama IV at the time, and on that day a bunch of hooligans on motorbikes came down and ransacked and looted the 7/11. The question is, just like the riots in England two years back, how much of this was politically motivated and how much just opportunistic mayhem? Look at the history of social disorder in any country and you can see how soon one blends into another. You see it with the yellows now - remember the bus torched a few weeks back, the taxi driver beaten unconscious, etc? Same mindless thuggery, if you take a more balanced view and avoid being an apologist for violence on any side.

[rametindallas]

What other country would the police stand an watch as "protestors" blocked a main city centre intersection.as I witnessed tonight at MBK SIAM. Barricades and deciding who goes where.what a joke the country is becoming ,Surely the military will need to step in? Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Ukraine, Turkey, Egypt

[Spartakos]

Answer to yourself on 1 question, honestly. If you could make 1 person from this circus to magically disappear and calm things down in this country and let it move forward, who would that be? Honestly.

I'll answer where everyone can see. Dr. Thaksin Shinawatra. Without him there would be no UDD, no disruption of the 2009 ASEAN meeting in Pataya, no 2010 Ratchaprasong attempted soft coup of the Abhisit government resulting in 87 dead and many lives destroyed, no changing the constitution to give his party more power, no fake amnesty bill, disguised as reconciliation, that forgives more than 2,500 ongoing corruption cases and absolves Thaksin of all misdeeds convicted of or not yet charged, no government bankrupting Thailand with an unsustainable Rice Scheme resulting in the destruction of the agricultural segment of the Thai economy, and there certainly would be no reason for hoards of people to gather in Bangkok to follow Suthep's lead to overthrow the latest Thaksin puppet government. I could go on but that should be enough for anyone who is not a propagandist or red blind.

Spot on, i don't understan why people are still talking about suthep, yingluck, charlem, 3rd party provocatuers , amart, udd, ptp etc, if this one persone goes away he will take all the above crap with him. This country will be a better place without this 1 guy tearing it apart.

[kingalfred]

Answer to yourself on 1 question, honestly. If you could make 1 person from this circus to magically disappear and calm things down in this country and let it move forward, who would that be? Honestly.

I'll answer where everyone can see. Dr. Thaksin Shinawatra. Without him there would be no UDD, no disruption of the 2009 ASEAN meeting in Pataya, no 2010 Ratchaprasong attempted soft coup of the Abhisit government resulting in 87 dead and many lives destroyed, no changing the constitution to give his party more power, no fake amnesty bill, disguised as reconciliation, that forgives more than 2,500 ongoing corruption cases and absolves Thaksin of all misdeeds convicted of or not yet charged, no government bankrupting Thailand with an unsustainable Rice Scheme resulting in the destruction of the agricultural segment of the Thai economy, and there certainly would be no reason for hoards of people to gather in Bangkok to follow Suthep's lead to overthrow the latest Thaksin puppet government. I could go on but that should be enough for anyone who is not a propagandist or red blind.

summarised succinctly

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Cnxforever]

I read part of Suthep's proposal in other news today.

Apparently he wants this "people assembly" which is to propose reforms, to not include any politicians.

The assembly should do their job in about a year, after which an election is to be held.

Further, anyone on the assembly, will automatically be banned from politics for 5 years, preventing those making the reforms from being elected at the subsequent election.

I am no fan of Suthep, but that all sounds good to me!

and on which authority does he propose - or better impose or dictate this to the Thai people?

Who will "choose" this assembly and who will scrutinize what they come up with?

And how on earth does he think he can change part of the culture of this country and the mindset of an entire nation in a year!!!???

It would take decades to root out corruption and nepotism in this country - assuming the political will is there and country wide participation. Rules and laws mean nothing if they are not enforced or only selectively enforced.

What if another "Suthep" gathers enough people next year and says if he can break the law and do whatever he wants I can too! All I need to do is gather enough people and shout "Corruption" and "Reforms" loud enough.

It is not new laws this country needs - it is proper law enforcement for ALL - law enforcement is a farce in this country - it is selective and if you are rich and powerful you get away with murder. Courts are swayed by those "above the law" to come up with rulings that are ridiculous to say the least!

And who does Suthep think would win the "subsequent" elections? We would be back to square one again wouldn't we?

Suthep is now in a very good position to sit down and negotiate for a few more days - then the point of no return will be reached - if Suthep is serious about reforms he should now work with the government - they should work together on a long term strategy to implement reforms - and the rule of law - for ALL Thais!

The reforms have to go along with a functioning elected government - anything else is not acceptable to a majority of Thais.

Many Thais I talk to feel disenfranchised again by the demonstrations which have in their eyes only one goal - not reforms but to topple this (their elected) government - telling me "who does Suthep think he is? Just another corrupt politician who thinks he is above the law!"

He personally should step aside - and hand over the negotiations to one of his deputies and legal advisers - as he will never be acceptable to most Thais.

If this government - and this is very likely - will be elected again in the next elections breaks their promise of reforms they agree on - THEN he can call on all reasonable Thai people to demonstrate - and I am sure many more would follow his call then!

The biggest hurdle of all of course is - all this talk about reforms is very likely just a smoke-screen. Why would anybody in this country in a powerful position want any reforms?

Why would the rich and powerful give up what the believe is rightfully theirs without a fight? They own the military and the courts - Money, power, being above the law, trampling on the poor and uneducated calling them stupid - why would they want reforms?

[robblok]

I read part of Suthep's proposal in other news today.

Apparently he wants this "people assembly" which is to propose reforms, to not include any politicians.

The assembly should do their job in about a year, after which an election is to be held.

Further, anyone on the assembly, will automatically be banned from politics for 5 years, preventing those making the reforms from being elected at the subsequent election.

I am no fan of Suthep, but that all sounds good to me!

and on which authority does he propose - or better impose or dictate this to the Thai people?

Who will "choose" this assembly and who will scrutinize what they come up with?

And how on earth does he think he can change part of the culture of this country and the mindset of an entire nation in a year!!!???

It would take decades to root out corruption and nepotism in this country - assuming the political will is there and country wide participation. Rules and laws mean nothing if they are not enforced or only selectively enforced.

What if another "Suthep" gathers enough people next year and says if he can break the law and do whatever he wants I can too! All I need to do is gather enough people and shout "Corruption" and "Reforms" loud enough.

It is not new laws this country needs - it is proper law enforcement for ALL - law enforcement is a farce in this country - it is selective and if you are rich and powerful you get away with murder. Courts are swayed by those "above the law" to come up with rulings that are ridiculous to say the least!

And who does Suthep think would win the "subsequent" elections? We would be back to square one again wouldn't we?

Suthep is now in a very good position to sit down and negotiate for a few more days - then the point of no return will be reached - if Suthep is serious about reforms he should now work with the government - they should work together on a long term strategy to implement reforms - and the rule of law - for ALL Thais!

The reforms have to go along with a functioning elected government - anything else is not acceptable to a majority of Thais.

Many Thais I talk to feel disenfranchised again by the demonstrations which have in their eyes only one goal - not reforms but to topple this (their elected) government - telling me "who does Suthep think he is? Just another corrupt politician who thinks he is above the law!"

He personally should step aside - and hand over the negotiations to one of his deputies and legal advisers - as he will never be acceptable to most Thais.

If this government - and this is very likely - will be elected again in the next elections breaks their promise of reforms they agree on - THEN he can call on all reasonable Thai people to demonstrate - and I am sure many more would follow his call then!

The biggest hurdle of all of course is - all this talk about reforms is very likely just a smoke-screen. Why would anybody in this country in a powerful position want any reforms?

Why would the rich and powerful give up what the believe is rightfully theirs without a fight? They own the military and the courts - Money, power, being above the law, trampling on the poor and uneducated calling them stupid - why would they want reforms?

This government has proven to be corrupt and for 1 man only (look at the amnesty and where it got us)

Just one example.. the PTP Mp voting for mutiple people then lying in court... no punishment.

That just shows we need change and new laws. This government shown it can't do it.

It is good to see that at least you support change and want to make thai politicians accountable.

We dont seem to agree about your idea of people controlling the constitution court, they are the only thing that stand in the way of red dictatorship.

Chance should come and the government should be kept honest and in check.. not remove checks and balances (like they were doing)

How can you think a government that was removing these checks and balances is going to place them. Sutheps idea is great combined with the fact the peope making the changes cant be in politics for 5 years.

[robblok]

I read part of Suthep's proposal in other news today.

Apparently he wants this "people assembly" which is to propose reforms, to not include any politicians.

The assembly should do their job in about a year, after which an election is to be held.

Further, anyone on the assembly, will automatically be banned from politics for 5 years, preventing those making the reforms from being elected at the subsequent election.

I am no fan of Suthep, but that all sounds good to me!

and on which authority does he propose - or better impose or dictate this to the Thai people?

Who will "choose" this assembly and who will scrutinize what they come up with?

And how on earth does he think he can change part of the culture of this country and the mindset of an entire nation in a year!!!???

It would take decades to root out corruption and nepotism in this country - assuming the political will is there and country wide participation. Rules and laws mean nothing if they are not enforced or only selectively enforced.

What if another "Suthep" gathers enough people next year and says if he can break the law and do whatever he wants I can too! All I need to do is gather enough people and shout "Corruption" and "Reforms" loud enough.

It is not new laws this country needs - it is proper law enforcement for ALL - law enforcement is a farce in this country - it is selective and if you are rich and powerful you get away with murder. Courts are swayed by those "above the law" to come up with rulings that are ridiculous to say the least!

And who does Suthep think would win the "subsequent" elections? We would be back to square one again wouldn't we?

Suthep is now in a very good position to sit down and negotiate for a few more days - then the point of no return will be reached - if Suthep is serious about reforms he should now work with the government - they should work together on a long term strategy to implement reforms - and the rule of law - for ALL Thais!

The reforms have to go along with a functioning elected government - anything else is not acceptable to a majority of Thais.

Many Thais I talk to feel disenfranchised again by the demonstrations which have in their eyes only one goal - not reforms but to topple this (their elected) government - telling me "who does Suthep think he is? Just another corrupt politician who thinks he is above the law!"

He personally should step aside - and hand over the negotiations to one of his deputies and legal advisers - as he will never be acceptable to most Thais.

If this government - and this is very likely - will be elected again in the next elections breaks their promise of reforms they agree on - THEN he can call on all reasonable Thai people to demonstrate - and I am sure many more would follow his call then!

The biggest hurdle of all of course is - all this talk about reforms is very likely just a smoke-screen. Why would anybody in this country in a powerful position want any reforms?

Why would the rich and powerful give up what the believe is rightfully theirs without a fight? They own the military and the courts - Money, power, being above the law, trampling on the poor and uneducated calling them stupid - why would they want reforms?

This government has proven to be corrupt and for 1 man only (look at the amnesty and where it got us)

Just one example.. the PTP Mp voting for mutiple people then lying in court... no punishment.

That just shows we need change and new laws. This government shown it can't do it.

It is good to see that at least you support change and want to make thai politicians accountable.

We dont seem to agree about your idea of people controlling the constitution court, they are the only thing that stand in the way of red dictatorship.

Chance should come and the government should be kept honest and in check.. not remove checks and balances (like they were doing)

How can you think a government that was removing these checks and balances is going to place them. Sutheps idea is great combined with the fact the peope making the changes cant be in politics for 5 years.

[DMG333]

The protester who wants the government to stop being corrupt might want to look at the man on the stage, who::

• redistributed Phuket land meant for the poor to 11 of its richest families, to gain political influence
• artificially inflated the value of palm oil shares whilst in power, so he and his family could make a killing on the stock market
• was such an embarrasment to other Dem MPs that many complained of his corrupt practices when they were in power in 2011

This is the man who leads you in your fight for clean politics

Disquietude actions of his to cover pusillanimity and avarice. Consternation in awe of desperatation.

[DMG333]

The protester who wants the government to stop being corrupt might want to look at the man on the stage, who::

• redistributed Phuket land meant for the poor to 11 of its richest families, to gain political influence
• artificially inflated the value of palm oil shares whilst in power, so he and his family could make a killing on the stock market
• was such an embarrasment to other Dem MPs that many complained of his corrupt practices when they were in power in 2011

This is the man who leads you in your fight for clean politics

Disquietude actions of his to cover pusillanimity and avarice. Consternation in awe of desperation. Edited January 12, 2014 by DMG333

[bkksteviejai]

I read part of Suthep's proposal in other news today.

Apparently he wants this "people assembly" which is to propose reforms, to not include any politicians.

The assembly should do their job in about a year, after which an election is to be held.

Further, anyone on the assembly, will automatically be banned from politics for 5 years, preventing those making the reforms from being elected at the subsequent election.

I am no fan of Suthep, but that all sounds good to me!

Unless one of the reforms includes votes from the north and northeast only counting as half a vote how will they avoid the same scenario again?. Bottom line, if Suthep has his way he will disenfranchise the millions that did vote this current government in. It'll take some serious reform to placate them I'd think.

[robblok]

I read part of Suthep's proposal in other news today.

Apparently he wants this "people assembly" which is to propose reforms, to not include any politicians.

The assembly should do their job in about a year, after which an election is to be held.

Further, anyone on the assembly, will automatically be banned from politics for 5 years, preventing those making the reforms from being elected at the subsequent election.

I am no fan of Suthep, but that all sounds good to me!

Unless one of the reforms includes votes from the north and northeast only counting as half a vote how will they avoid the same scenario again?. Bottom line, if Suthep has his way he will disenfranchise the millions that did vote this current government in. It'll take some serious reform to placate them I'd think.

It is about corruption.. it is quite likely that PTP gets in power again. Nobody minds that unless they can steal as much as they do now. If strong laws are in place preventing the corruption (for a large part not all of it its will be too hard) Then people dont mind PTP in power.

People only rose up against this government once it was so clear they were corrupt and only wanted Taksin back (the amnesty started it all). If this government had been honest and not tried to get budgets off the book without checks and balances and would not have tried to remove those all of this would not have happened.

New strong laws keeping whatever government (probably PTP) in check keeping them honest and accountable would make sure the people are satisfied.

I think we can all agree that things like the PTP mp voting for multiple people and then lying in court and not getting punished for that is a great example that laws should have teeth and corruption and lying should be rooted out.

[Centrum]

The real question here is ...is it really worth destroying Thailand to replace one corrupt politician with another corrupt politician? I have no doubts that Thaksin is corrupt, but Suthep also is. So why destroy the country if in the end we just end up with money flowing into another corrupt pocket?

Abhisit and Suthep have already demonstrated that they had no intentions of changing the laws for the better while they were in power. They did absolutely nothing. Suthep was charged with distributing land to poor people while he was a politician in the South and the land ended up in the hands of Phuket's richest families, not with the poor people.

When the Democrat government was question about this, they dissolved parliament in order not to have to answer and subsequently lost the next elections.

My God, you've convinced me.

Let's get Thaksin back before the elections, which will be postponed, and get him back in the big chair.

Give him back the money he stole, let him have his land, overturn his conviction, let him loose on another 2,000+ extra judicial killings to eradicate drugs, again, give him his heavy-handed approach to the situation in the South (that worked a treat last time, didn't it?), shit let's just make him ***g.

Just one question. When the red-shirts were threatening to 'destroy the country' in 2009 and 2010, and actually doing it, were you as equally vocal in your disapproval?

As far as I remember, nobody did 'destroy the country', unless you really do equate Central World with Thailand. There were other buildings set fire to, to be fair, but a number of these were suspicious in the sense that they seemed likely to be opportunistic arson for insurance money. Even some of the major fires were less than thoroughly investigated and, whiilst it is admittedly likely that some of the more extreme redshirts were behind at least some of the fires, as far as I can remember there was little if any evidence that came to light as to who was actually guilty.

Having said that, I was living off Rama IV at the time, and on that day a bunch of hooligans on motorbikes came down and ransacked and looted the 7/11. The question is, just like the riots in England two years back, how much of this was politically motivated and how much just opportunistic mayhem? Look at the history of social disorder in any country and you can see how soon one blends into another. You see it with the yellows now - remember the bus torched a few weeks back, the taxi driver beaten unconscious, etc? Same mindless thuggery, if you take a more balanced view and avoid being an apologist for violence on any side.

And as far as I can see, no one has destroyed the country this time around and there is no evidence that the country will be destroyed or any worse off than 2010.

Which was the point jackrich was trying to make.