You Don't Understand - Finally Understood!

[atyclb]

Well, one example of very basic critical thinking would be what was pointed out above, understanding the concept of a public discussion forum versus private.

An example of critical thinking in any business where a Thai is employed please. In other words an example of critical thinking that you or your Korean, Chinese and Singapore friends do that a Thai person can not do?

Now for the others reading this thread, I'll tell you in advance my question will not be answered and I will be attacked for broaching one of the sacred cows of Thai Visa pseudo scholars, and that is critical thinking. No one at a level of management posting on Thai Visa actually knows what critical thinking is let alone do some of it.

But I am more than happy to be proved wrong. Just tell me how you, Mr atycib, practice critical thinking at your job in Thailand that a Thai can not do.

First off, the thread topic did not seem to be limited to the workplace. secondly my comments are based upon observations and experiences from living in the country for over 5 years and being fairly proficient in the language including written, thus the so called language barrier is largely removed. essentially on a daily basis i encounter recurring episodes that show lack of basic analytical, critical, logical, thinking. so called inability to connect the dots. much of it is so basic and so simple that it defies sanity, at least my own sanity. the failures of thai education are widelyl known and well documented by thai academics and journalists that think outside the box. i have many such snippets of articles and references posted on some of these forums.

i have never been in a company or factory or office workplace in thailand so i am at a disadvantage in not being able to cite specific examples of lack of critical thinking however it would seem the general status quo of critical thinking would carry over in multiple facets of the workplace. i do not know why it would not.

observations about critical thinking are not to say thais are not capable of it, because i do have thai friends that are quite bright and think very much outside the box and also agree with our korean, japanese, singapore and chinese friends.

i have lectured and put together courses at 2 top tier bkk universities designed to help their medical students and doctors pass the exams for medical licensure / training in the usa. although i am far from being the brightest person, i can recall specific input from a faculty dean that prompted students to analyze and think below the surfaces of what appeared to be cut and dry clinical cases being presented.

unless i am mistaken, was it not you that made the analogy about thai mistreatment of rohynga people to shooting someone breaking into your house? you also accused me of denigrating america because i didnt capitalize (from same thread ref below)

"Royhingas are breaking into Thailand same as a person is breaking into my house. I don't ask him if he is hungry or thirsty before I shoot him. He breaks in he gets shot."

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/692606-no-shameno-morals/page-13

would have replied sooner but there were a lot of dishes to wash.

i really hope you dont have an axe to grind with me because of the the above referenced thread discussion

Edited January 16, 2014 by atyclb

[silent]

Iam a westerner and I do not understand what the hell you are dribbling about.

TL;DR - "you don't understand Thai culture" actually means "our way is the only right way"

But this same attitude is most often exactly the cause of the farang criticizing the Thai way.

I think what it really means is "you are a foreigner so shut up about how you think things could be improved here"

And I think that's a perfectly valid POV

Certainly. There's no improvement necessary for many of whom rarely show, or maybe even really have remorse and profess one thing yet on a regular basis turn around and do another.Similarly, the difficulty sometimes discerning between psychopathy, or culture and religious beliefs. Apparently though, these are all just Farange beliefs and no more appropriate than death before dishonor is when we should hide things to save face and never think of taking a life even to save another's. PLEASE spare me the BPOV

[xen]

I hear the "you don't understand " bit from my 11 year old daughter whenever she wants something, especially money to buy something that is "fashion" and she needs to be just like her friends.

[Thai at Heart]

In my discussions, unless it directly affects me, I rarely take a position; I simply question the proposed position. I am not trying to expound my views; I am trying to understand theirs, and maybe, in the process, re-enforce, or help them understand their own views.

As implied in my post, I, too, think a lot of it is due to the fact that most will simply nod yes and move on. When questioned, many become uncomfortable and simply want to walk away (can't be bothered).

During my schooling, I often took opposing views, sometimes simply to offer a counterpoint. Most teachers were initially offended. But, when I explained that questioning a premise will often lead to actually thinking about it, most - at least the good ones - appreciated the discussions generated.

Rather than establishing who's right, or who's wrong, I prefer to try to understand why. Often "what" is isn't as important as "why" ..

(Hope I didn't lose Spoonman again)

I mean no disrespect when I say this. In a college the educators want a student to take all sides so they may learn to defend or understand both sides. Not everything can be discussed in the real world like that. Not everything in the real world is black or white. ...

The problem I have run into, in many instances, Thais will see things as black or white. Asking why is you when get the "You don't understand."

Yes, it is simply a cop out. But, what I find interesting is how widespread it is in Thailand. Is there anyone reading this that hasn't heard this, often? Have anyone heard it to any great extent anywhere else?

It also can have terrible consequences.

The pooyai has to know what to do and thus will decide in order to be seen to do something when often the best strategy would be to wait and see.

[pxlgirl]

"you not understand thai culture, you farung"

meaning 1: our thai way is the only way and you farungs gotta suck it up

meaning 2: I'm out of arguments to support my claim and need to save my ass

meaning 3: I don't understand anything myself but I don't want you to notice

[Thai at Heart]

"you not understand thai culture, you farung"

meaning 1: our thai way is the only way and you farungs gotta suck it up

meaning 2: I'm out of arguments to support my claim and need to save my ass

meaning 3: I don't understand anything myself but I don't want you to notice

Next week on our Thai culture class

Up too you!

Is this the most loaded phrase in thailand?

[JO1973]

What an absolutely pathetic post. Either you are a Western burnout or a prejudiced Thai with no experience in the West.

Let me look at a couple of quotes:

"Just like every other aspect of our Western culture, much of our education systems have little structure."

Are you serious? What 'Western' culture are you refering to? EVERY aspect of Western culture is structured and has been since the Industrial Revolution. The biggest complaints about Western education today is that it's too structured. If this is your belief than you have very little experience with Western education.

"Here, in Thailand, people are taught in a structured atmosphere. Thai people are fortunate to have teachers that know what should be learned. The academics are nice enough to decide what is proper to learn and what is not to be allowed. This helps the educated society think the proper thought."

Thais flock to Western educational institutions because of the lack of quality in the Thai educational system -- and that includes structure. And the teachers 'know what should be learned' and 'decide what is proper'? Who put them in charge of determining what is 'proper'? And what happens when someone thinks outside of what others determine is 'proper'? Academics aren't solely in charge of determining what people should learn. If you think they are then you certainly haven't learned anything about the West or Thailand.

"So, in the end, we Westerners are, once again, a rude, crude, undisciplined bunch. We are liable to believe or disbelieve just about anything There is no way we will ever understand. We have not had a proper education."

Wow, this is truly pathetic. I guess those Thais running and patronizing the millions of massage parlors are not part of this group. Or all riotous rabble occupying the streets, for that matter. Obviously only these people have a 'proper education' and not the Westerners working, living their lives, and minding their own business in Thailand.

The reason why Thais say 'You don't understand' is the same reason why every other person around the world says that when confronted with a logical question regarding something they do without reflection. They can't explain it because they never considered it and become frustrated when asked to explain a part of their culture they may not fully understand themselves. They fear losing face and looking silly -- especially in front of a foreigner. So instead of trying to analyze it -- which may require asking serious and uncomfortable questions -- they take the easy way out: 'You don't understand.'

It would be very easy for a Westerner to say the same thing to a Thai in their country. And it would also be easy for a Westerner to conclude, based on their cultural differences, that Thais living abroad were a 'rude, crude, undisciplined bunch' because they didn't understand a particular aspect of a Western culture.

As I said before, you sound like a Thai spouting off another deluge of ethnocentric nationalism, or a Western burnout who has burned every bridge back home and now has nowhere else to go. Either way you have a lot to learn about the world -- Western and Thai.

[pxlgirl]

Next week on our Thai culture class

Up too you!

Is this the most loaded phrase in thailand?

meaning 1: I don't give a shit!

[Curt1591]

What an absolutely pathetic post. Either you are a Western burnout or a prejudiced Thai with no experience in the West.

Let me look at a couple of quotes:

"Just like every other aspect of our Western culture, much of our education systems have little structure."

Are you serious? What 'Western' culture are you refering to? EVERY aspect of Western culture is structured and has been since the Industrial Revolution. The biggest complaints about Western education today is that it's too structured. If this is your belief than you have very little experience with Western education.

"Here, in Thailand, people are taught in a structured atmosphere. Thai people are fortunate to have teachers that know what should be learned. The academics are nice enough to decide what is proper to learn and what is not to be allowed. This helps the educated society think the proper thought."

Thais flock to Western educational institutions because of the lack of quality in the Thai educational system -- and that includes structure. And the teachers 'know what should be learned' and 'decide what is proper'? Who put them in charge of determining what is 'proper'? And what happens when someone thinks outside of what others determine is 'proper'? Academics aren't solely in charge of determining what people should learn. If you think they are then you certainly haven't learned anything about the West or Thailand.

"So, in the end, we Westerners are, once again, a rude, crude, undisciplined bunch. We are liable to believe or disbelieve just about anything There is no way we will ever understand. We have not had a proper education."

Wow, this is truly pathetic. I guess those Thais running and patronizing the millions of massage parlors are not part of this group. Or all riotous rabble occupying the streets, for that matter. Obviously only these people have a 'proper education' and not the Westerners working, living their lives, and minding their own business in Thailand.

The reason why Thais say 'You don't understand' is the same reason why every other person around the world says that when confronted with a logical question regarding something they do without reflection. They can't explain it because they never considered it and become frustrated when asked to explain a part of their culture they may not fully understand themselves. They fear losing face and looking silly -- especially in front of a foreigner. So instead of trying to analyze it -- which may require asking serious and uncomfortable questions -- they take the easy way out: 'You don't understand.'

It would be very easy for a Westerner to say the same thing to a Thai in their country. And it would also be easy for a Westerner to conclude, based on their cultural differences, that Thais living abroad were a 'rude, crude, undisciplined bunch' because they didn't understand a particular aspect of a Western culture.

As I said before, you sound like a Thai spouting off another deluge of ethnocentric nationalism, or a Western burnout who has burned every bridge back home and now has nowhere else to go. Either way you have a lot to learn about the world -- Western and Thai.

Look up "sarcasm". I am still presenting a point of view, but in a sarcastic tone.

… you sound like … a Western burnout who has burned every bridge back home and now has nowhere else to go.

What could possibly bring you to that conclusion?

Actually, I burned out decades ago. It's been getting better and better ever since.

Searching for understanding is building bridges, not burning them. There are no chains that bind me.

No disrespect but except in fru fru disciplines in college the instructors want you to learn a set of facts and apply them in the same way you are taught. In other words, you do not need to reinvent the wheel to get a degree. A BS degree in petroleum geology is about finding stuff underground. The college professor will tell you how to do that. You don't tell the professor anything.

Unfortunately, I think that contemporary education has become a bit of a "mill" for many systems, as mentioned in one reply, pretty much "trade schools".

Where I was working, there was a guy that was studying for his MBA. He had me take a look at his "thesis". The paper was a a bunch run ons. misspellings and a grammatical mess. I offered to straighten a little grammar, do some spell checking, and add some punctuation. He replied that it didn't matter - "This isn't an English class!"

I guess his paper provided the appropriate number of buzz words. He received his MBA. He's also really good at golf and has climbed well up the corporate ladder.

[Curt1591]

In school I also took opposing views, to not be segregated in separate Hispanic classes in Arizona. I took apposing views when tracked into Manuel arts classes and not college prep courses.

I believe we are talking different concepts of "opposing views".

[thailiketoo]

Well, one example of very basic critical thinking would be what was pointed out above, understanding the concept of a public discussion forum versus private.

An example of critical thinking in any business where a Thai is employed please. In other words an example of critical thinking that you or your Korean, Chinese and Singapore friends do that a Thai person can not do?

Now for the others reading this thread, I'll tell you in advance my question will not be answered and I will be attacked for broaching one of the sacred cows of Thai Visa pseudo scholars, and that is critical thinking. No one at a level of management posting on Thai Visa actually knows what critical thinking is let alone do some of it.

But I am more than happy to be proved wrong. Just tell me how you, Mr atycib, practice critical thinking at your job in Thailand that a Thai can not do.

First off, the thread topic did not seem to be limited to the workplace. secondly my comments are based upon observations and experiences from living in the country for over 5 years and being fairly proficient in the language including written, thus the so called language barrier is largely removed. essentially on a daily basis i encounter recurring episodes that show lack of basic analytical, critical, logical, thinking. so called inability to connect the dots. much of it is so basic and so simple that it defies sanity, at least my own sanity. the failures of thai education are widelyl known and well documented by thai academics and journalists that think outside the box. i have many such snippets of articles and references posted on some of these forums.

i have never been in a company or factory or office workplace in thailand so i am at a disadvantage in not being able to cite specific examples of lack of critical thinking however it would seem the general status quo of critical thinking would carry over in multiple facets of the workplace. i do not know why it would not.

observations about critical thinking are not to say thais are not capable of it, because i do have thai friends that are quite bright and think very much outside the box and also agree with our korean, japanese, singapore and chinese friends.

i have lectured and put together courses at 2 top tier bkk universities designed to help their medical students and doctors pass the exams for medical licensure / training in the usa. although i am far from being the brightest person, i can recall specific input from a faculty dean that prompted students to analyze and think below the surfaces of what appeared to be cut and dry clinical cases being presented.

unless i am mistaken, was it not you that made the analogy about thai mistreatment of rohynga people to shooting someone breaking into your house? you also accused me of denigrating america because i didnt capitalize (from same thread ref below)

"Royhingas are breaking into Thailand same as a person is breaking into my house. I don't ask him if he is hungry or thirsty before I shoot him. He breaks in he gets shot."

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/692606-no-shameno-morals/page-13

would have replied sooner but there were a lot of dishes to wash.

i really hope you dont have an axe to grind with me because of the the above referenced thread discussion

You wrote, "My japanese, korean, chinese, singapore friends that live in thailand say the same things westerners say. basically little or no reason, logic, analytical, critical thinking skills nor reliability, punctuality, hindsight, foresight."

I wrote, "An example of critical thinking in any business where a Thai is employed please. In other words an example of critical thinking that you or your Korean, Chinese and Singapore friends do that a Thai person can not do?"

You wrote, "i have never been in a company or factory or office workplace in thailand so i am at a disadvantage in not being able to cite specific examples of lack of critical thinking however it would seem the general status quo of critical thinking would carry over in multiple facets of the workplace. i do not know why it would not."

You wrote, "i do not know why it would not." The US Army staff college teaches critical thinking. They teach it because they think the people in the US Army don't have it. There are about a million and a half people in the US Army. Less than one tenth one percent go to the staff college. Mostly people who have the potential to be Generals go to the staff college. It's the same in Thailand. A very small percent of folk at the top of the ladder are taught critical thinking. In an academic sense very few people need critical thinking.

Looking at the performance of the US Army in Iraq and Afghanistan how would you say they have done with the critical thought process?

[thailiketoo]

But I am more than happy to be proved wrong. Just tell me how you practice critical thinking at your job in Thailand that a Thai can not do.

Sure. Job I had in an international IT services company, required upward/downward 360 degree staff performance reviews. Production staff had to objectively review the job performance of their peers, support staff and most importantly, management immediately above and two more levels up.

The bottom performers, between 8 and 15% of the company was sacked each year to make room for fresh blood and to trim the deadwood, including from upper management, as the result of reviews given by their subordinates. Top performers got bonuses, promotions and/or schedule/location first choice, and each staff member got a clear list of areas needing improvement and concrete performance goals for the following year.

This was done strictly from the POV of objective value added aimed at improving the overall performance of the company, no personality politics or favoritism allowed or you were out.

I don't see any of this being possible in a Thai business environment.

Now let's talk about original research being conducted in universities, technology innovations coming from Thai companies.

You wrote, "This was done strictly from the POV of objective value added aimed at improving the overall performance of the company, no personality politics or favoritism allowed or you were out."

There is a drug dealer who works in Pattaya on a very busy corner of Soi Buakhow. He does this every Chinese New Year. And when he says you are out he really means out.

You wrote, "Now let's talk about original research being conducted in universities, technology innovations coming from Thai companies."

Malaysia does not have the infrastructure to produce a car. After 15 years it is still not making money. You can google Malaysia's car industry, Proton bomb.

Thailand does not have the infrastructure to do the original research and make the technological innovations that are coming out of the West. It would be a stupid waste of time. Silicon Valley is doing a fine job. Thailand Walking street. California Silicon Valley.

[hstnasia]

So if the Asian in a western countries try to voice out our concerns and thoughts, we are told we are un-Asian and we should just staying silently without resentment BUT when a westerners comes to Asia and think that they understand Asia well enough are encouraged to voice out their concern and thoughts freely. Aha.... Since I am an Asian in Asia, Can I only say "we should all just keep our mouth shut and keeping our faces down and continue to suck up to many westerners with superior complex?" Well, just when I thought westerns are civilized and value equality, I probably need to rethink this. Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

What what? You make about as much sense as the OP.. ZERO

See, I just help proving your point. You can never understand Thai people because what we do is, if we can't win the argument we just confuse you I.e. Can't win them, confuse them. Lol.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[I knew this would happen]

So if the Asian in a western countries try to voice out our concerns and thoughts, we are told we are un-Asian and we should just staying silently without resentment BUT when a westerners comes to Asia and think that they understand Asia well enough are encouraged to voice out their concern and thoughts freely. Aha.... Since I am an Asian in Asia, Can I only say "we should all just keep our mouth shut and keeping our faces down and continue to suck up to many westerners with superior complex?" Well, just when I thought westerns are civilized and value equality, I probably need to rethink this. Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

I have no superiorty complex, I deeply respect the Koreans, Japanese, HK-Chinese, Singaporeans and the Chinese for their astonishing efforts they made in getting almost equal or better than us. Thailand is not on my list.......dunno why........

[atyclb]

Well, one example of very basic critical thinking would be what was pointed out above, understanding the concept of a public discussion forum versus private.

An example of critical thinking in any business where a Thai is employed please. In other words an example of critical thinking that you or your Korean, Chinese and Singapore friends do that a Thai person can not do?

Now for the others reading this thread, I'll tell you in advance my question will not be answered and I will be attacked for broaching one of the sacred cows of Thai Visa pseudo scholars, and that is critical thinking. No one at a level of management posting on Thai Visa actually knows what critical thinking is let alone do some of it.

But I am more than happy to be proved wrong. Just tell me how you, Mr atycib, practice critical thinking at your job in Thailand that a Thai can not do.

First off, the thread topic did not seem to be limited to the workplace. secondly my comments are based upon observations and experiences from living in the country for over 5 years and being fairly proficient in the language including written, thus the so called language barrier is largely removed. essentially on a daily basis i encounter recurring episodes that show lack of basic analytical, critical, logical, thinking. so called inability to connect the dots. much of it is so basic and so simple that it defies sanity, at least my own sanity. the failures of thai education are widelyl known and well documented by thai academics and journalists that think outside the box. i have many such snippets of articles and references posted on some of these forums.

i have never been in a company or factory or office workplace in thailand so i am at a disadvantage in not being able to cite specific examples of lack of critical thinking however it would seem the general status quo of critical thinking would carry over in multiple facets of the workplace. i do not know why it would not.

observations about critical thinking are not to say thais are not capable of it, because i do have thai friends that are quite bright and think very much outside the box and also agree with our korean, japanese, singapore and chinese friends.

i have lectured and put together courses at 2 top tier bkk universities designed to help their medical students and doctors pass the exams for medical licensure / training in the usa. although i am far from being the brightest person, i can recall specific input from a faculty dean that prompted students to analyze and think below the surfaces of what appeared to be cut and dry clinical cases being presented.

unless i am mistaken, was it not you that made the analogy about thai mistreatment of rohynga people to shooting someone breaking into your house? you also accused me of denigrating america because i didnt capitalize (from same thread ref below)

"Royhingas are breaking into Thailand same as a person is breaking into my house. I don't ask him if he is hungry or thirsty before I shoot him. He breaks in he gets shot."

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/692606-no-shameno-morals/page-13

would have replied sooner but there were a lot of dishes to wash.

i really hope you dont have an axe to grind with me because of the the above referenced thread discussion

You wrote, "My japanese, korean, chinese, singapore friends that live in thailand say the same things westerners say. basically little or no reason, logic, analytical, critical thinking skills nor reliability, punctuality, hindsight, foresight."

I wrote, "An example of critical thinking in any business where a Thai is employed please. In other words an example of critical thinking that you or your Korean, Chinese and Singapore friends do that a Thai person can not do?"

You wrote, "i have never been in a company or factory or office workplace in thailand so i am at a disadvantage in not being able to cite specific examples of lack of critical thinking however it would seem the general status quo of critical thinking would carry over in multiple facets of the workplace. i do not know why it would not."

You wrote, "i do not know why it would not." The US Army staff college teaches critical thinking. They teach it because they think the people in the US Army don't have it. There are about a million and a half people in the US Army. Less than one tenth one percent go to the staff college. Mostly people who have the potential to be Generals go to the staff college. It's the same in Thailand. A very small percent of folk at the top of the ladder are taught critical thinking. In an academic sense very few people need critical thinking.

Looking at the performance of the US Army in Iraq and Afghanistan how would you say they have done with the critical thought process?

Lets se, in the last few days at local restaurants (guess that would be a thai business) no foreign staff. I get so used to these things that you could say i am desensitized.

experience 1; I enter, maybe 4 tables, no apparent customers however all the chairs at the apparently patron-less tables are occupied by shopping bags and/or pocketbooks/ backpacks. After standing and browsing for an available seat a woman emerges from the back (kitchen area?) and directs the 3 employees in my area to remove their stuff from the chairs. Lets analyze this scenario. 3 apparent staff members, no customers(based on my subsequent observation from eating there) and customer seats unavailable due to bags etc on them.

Exactly how much analytical thinking ability is required to realize customers need to sit so they can eat? Then the fact that it took an additional person to actually direct them to remove the objects since I was standing there looking for an empty seat. This is "mind boggling stuff" even though i am somewhat desensitized and accept reality.

example 2; also restaurant. woman comes to my table and takes my order, leaves. 20 minutes later another employee comes to my table wanting to take my order. i tell her already given to "that woman (pointing at her) at which point the second woman tells me "she is young" referring to the first waitress that i guess never gave the order to the kitchen. once again, how many functional brain cells are needed to conclude an order must be submitted to the kitchen in a restaurant?

example 3; kind of stands out since my thinking thai friends were also intrigued more than standard levels. At apple computer store, hi end shopping mall. here supposedly staff are uni students or grads.

i hold my hand to a monitor and ask the salesperson what is the price of this monitor. he answers "out of stock"

next i ask him what is the usual price/ normal price. answer; out of stock. next i ask him "imagine you have it in stock, what would the price be? he sighs "ohhhhhh" then gives me the price. even thai customers in the store are watching us and seem amazed at this guy.

after that as i was doubting my own sanity i met with one thai friend that did a masters in england after abac uni. i repeated my sentences to her and asked her if my thai was correct and understandable. she said very clearly understandable.

in my entire life have not experienced such mind boggling events at japanese, korean, taiwanese places of business nor anything close.

now i wonder if you have any thoughts/ comments that might shed some light on this? within the framework of the said societies; japan, korea, taiwan, thailand.

how about thais that simply stop at the base of an escalator to check or send sms messages, even at rush hour. how many functional neurons needed to know other people need to use the escalator. i have never seen this in tokyo, seoul, or taipei. once i saw a man and a woman walking very very slow at taipei national station. as i passed them guess what language they were speaking?

regarding us military performance in iraq and afganistan i honestly do not have the expertise or background to make objective critique.

Edited January 17, 2014 by atyclb

[thailiketoo]

Lets se, in the last few days at local restaurants (guess that would be a thai business) no foreign staff. I get so used to these things that you could say i am desensitized.

experience 1; I enter, maybe 4 tables, no apparent customers however all the chairs at the apparently patron-less tables are occupied by shopping bags and/or pocketbooks/ backpacks. After standing and browsing for an available seat a woman emerges from the back (kitchen area?) and directs the 3 employees in my area to remove their stuff from the chairs. Lets analyze this scenario. 3 apparent staff members, no customers(based on my subsequent observation from eating there) and customer seats unavailable due to bags etc on them.

Exactly how much analytical thinking ability is required to realize customers need to sit so they can eat? Then the fact that it took an additional person to actually direct them to remove the objects since I was standing there looking for an empty seat. This is "mind boggling stuff" even though i am somewhat desensitized and accept reality.

example 2; also restaurant. woman comes to my table and takes my order, leaves. 20 minutes later another employee comes to my table wanting to take my order. i tell her already given to "that woman (pointing at her) at which point the second woman tells me "she is young" referring to the first waitress that i guess never gave the order to the kitchen. once again, how many functional brain cells are needed to conclude an order must be submitted to the kitchen in a restaurant?

example 3; kind of stands out since my thinking thai friends were also intrigued more than standard levels. At apple computer store, hi end shopping mall. here supposedly staff are uni students or grads.

i hold my hand to a monitor and ask the salesperson what is the price of this monitor. he answers "out of stock"

next i ask him what is the usual price/ normal price. answer; out of stock. next i ask him "imagine you have it in stock, what would the price be? he sighs "ohhhhhh" then gives me the price. even thai customers in the store are watching us and seem amazed at this guy.

after that as i was doubting my own sanity i met with one thai friend that did a masters in england after abac uni. i repeated my sentences to her and asked her if my thai was correct and understandable. she said very clearly understandable.

in my entire life have not experienced such mind boggling events at japanese, korean, taiwanese places of business nor anything close.

now i wonder if you have any thoughts/ comments that might shed some light on this? within the framework of the said societies; japan, korea, taiwan, thailand.

regarding us military performance in iraq and afganistan i honestly do not have the expertise or background to make objective critique.

I go to a Japanese restaurant chain owned and operated by Thai people. I have been to this restaurant 100 times. The food has only been delivered to my table in the correct order 2 times.

It is because they don't have an expediter or an automatic expediter computer order system. It saves money and is not a lack of critical thinking. I don't agree and think they should spend the money.

I have discovered an answer like this to every difference in the Thai way as opposed to the Western way when I encounter things that seem odd to me. I was a visitor to Taiwan and Japan 40 years ago and must say I found similar odd occurrences.

What I have observed is Thailand is about 50 years behind the other industrial nations in Asia in many things and still relies on the peasant system of family labor in many businesses where it is inappropriate.

[Somsrisonphimai]

Iam a westerner and I do not understand what the hell you are dribbling about.

And I am Thai and I have no idea what is OP talking about, oh wait...Thai people cannot think for themselve. Thai people do not have a mind of their own...oh wait...

[Curt1591]

Iam a westerner and I do not understand what the hell you are dribbling about.

And I am Thai and I have no idea what is OP talking about, oh wait...Thai people cannot think for themselve. Thai people do not have a mind of their own...oh wait...

No;

It's just that you are aren't a farang; you don't understand ...

[Nokbkk]

We, western people, know all better than eastern (Thai) people ? Many call Thai people different, not smart, not willing to understand the way we think, live, etc.

I give you all one other example. This one is between the western people: North America versus West-Europe: (I live in a West-European country)

Many times North-America has incidents where a guy shoots his machine gun empty in school, at his workplace, etc. 5 to 25 people die, every time.

In Europe: we don't understand. Why America allows guns ? Why America has the fundamental right to own guns for almost everyone ? Fathers teach their 10 year old kid to shoot a gun ...

In Europe, we also have violent acts of criminals. Our cities also have high criminal rates. We don't understand why America is so naïve: the more guns on the street, the more people will be shot.

America answer: do not interfere, you don't understand, you are not American.

This is between two western countries, so close to each other. Stupid example ? I have one thousand more.

Why do you think your way is better than the Thai way. Why you are discontent when a Thai tells you to shut up because you are not Thai ?

If you want to understand, you have to think as a Thai. Not easy, you where born elsewhere.

It's not your county. Have some respect as a visitor in a foreign countrie, it's not yours. Don't enforce your western habbits.

Next time, ask her with respect. She will answer you. Not defending herself and Thailand by telling you to shut up.

Maybe now she is tired to tell you because you enforced your western way to her to many times. Then you need a long talk with her. Gain respect, show her you want to understand, instead of attacking her country, family, friends,or whatever.

Meanwhile, don't worry. Many Thai people think the same way about us as we do to them. We are the stupid ones, we are living the wrong way. And from their point of view, I think they are more on the right side than us, western people.

If you don't like it, stay home. Don't enforce Thailand your western way of life. See what happened (happens) in Pattaya or Phuket. That's us, Our interfering made it the biggest shitwhole of the world.

And we all laugh about it. Critisize it.

[thailiketoo]

We, western people, know all better than eastern (Thai) people ? Many call Thai people different, not smart, not willing to understand the way we think, live, etc.

I give you all one other example. This one is between the western people: North America versus West-Europe: (I live in a West-European country)

Many times North-America has incidents where a guy shoots his machine gun empty in school, at his workplace, etc. 5 to 25 people die, every time.

In Europe: we don't understand. Why America allows guns ? Why America has the fundamental right to own guns for almost everyone ? Fathers teach their 10 year old kid to shoot a gun ...

In Europe, we also have violent acts of criminals. Our cities also have high criminal rates. We don't understand why America is so naïve: the more guns on the street, the more people will be shot.

America answer: do not interfere, you don't understand, you are not American.

This is between two western countries, so close to each other. Stupid example ? I have one thousand more.

Why do you think your way is better than the Thai way. Why you are discontent when a Thai tells you to shut up because you are not Thai ?

If you want to understand, you have to think as a Thai. Not easy, you where born elsewhere.

It's not your county. Have some respect as a visitor in a foreign countrie, it's not yours. Don't enforce your western habbits.

Next time, ask her with respect. She will answer you. Not defending herself and Thailand by telling you to shut up.

Maybe now she is tired to tell you because you enforced your western way to her to many times. Then you need a long talk with her. Gain respect, show her you want to understand, instead of attacking her country, family, friends,or whatever.

Meanwhile, don't worry. Many Thai people think the same way about us as we do to them. We are the stupid ones, we are living the wrong way. And from their point of view, I think they are more on the right side than us, western people.

If you don't like it, stay home. Don't enforce Thailand your western way of life. See what happened (happens) in Pattaya or Phuket. That's us, Our interfering made it the biggest shitwhole of the world.

And we all laugh about it. Critisize it.

Osaka School Massacre Knife wielding man kills or severely wounds 21 children.

The Osaka School Massacre took place on June 8, 2001, at Ikeda Elementary School, an elite primary school affiliated with Osaka Kyoiku University in Osaka Prefecture, Japan.

Welcome Nobkk san to Thai Visa.

Edited January 17, 2014 by thailiketoo

[atyclb]

We, western people, know all better than eastern (Thai) people ? Many call Thai people different, not smart, not willing to understand the way we think, live, etc.

I give you all one other example. This one is between the western people: North America versus West-Europe: (I live in a West-European country)

Many times North-America has incidents where a guy shoots his machine gun empty in school, at his workplace, etc. 5 to 25 people die, every time.

In Europe: we don't understand. Why America allows guns ? Why America has the fundamental right to own guns for almost everyone ? Fathers teach their 10 year old kid to shoot a gun ...

In Europe, we also have violent acts of criminals. Our cities also have high criminal rates. We don't understand why America is so naïve: the more guns on the street, the more people will be shot.

America answer: do not interfere, you don't understand, you are not American.

This is between two western countries, so close to each other. Stupid example ? I have one thousand more.

Why do you think your way is better than the Thai way. Why you are discontent when a Thai tells you to shut up because you are not Thai ?

If you want to understand, you have to think as a Thai. Not easy, you where born elsewhere.

It's not your county. Have some respect as a visitor in a foreign countrie, it's not yours. Don't enforce your western habbits.

Next time, ask her with respect. She will answer you. Not defending herself and Thailand by telling you to shut up.

Maybe now she is tired to tell you because you enforced your western way to her to many times. Then you need a long talk with her. Gain respect, show her you want to understand, instead of attacking her country, family, friends,or whatever.

Meanwhile, don't worry. Many Thai people think the same way about us as we do to them. We are the stupid ones, we are living the wrong way. And from their point of view, I think they are more on the right side than us, western people.

If you don't like it, stay home. Don't enforce Thailand your western way of life. See what happened (happens) in Pattaya or Phuket. That's us, Our interfering made it the biggest shitwhole of the world.

And we all laugh about it. Critisize it.

I am born in usa. i never liked guns, never was interested in guns, never owned one. the only gun i ever used is referred to as a semi-gun, slang name for a surfboard designed for bigger waves but not the huge ones.

washington, d.c. has perhaps the strictest gun control laws yet has one of the highest crime rates. stats show amazingly that place where legal gun ownership is common, crime is down.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/08/27/Harvard-Study-Shows-No-Correlation-Between-Strict-Gun-Control-And-Less-Crime-Violence Harvard University study no less

the reason guns are so prevalent in the usa and even part of the constitution (2nd amendment) is not for deer hunting or committing crimes. the history of the usa was one of needing to go to war against tyrannical british rule. democracy was not a gift but something fought for. the founding fathers had the foresight to guaranty the right to bear arms as a "doomsday clause" if you will, should tyranny ever return.

military and law enforcement all swear oaths to uphold and protect the constitution. more foresight. a sad thing to ponder but a reality none the less.

it seems there are a lot of guns in thailand also?

personally i dont try to help thais understand other styles because they have their own ways. they dont seem very open to discussion or debate or analysis (exceptions noted) imo the discussions here are not about changing them but understanding them.

pattaya and phuket have a lot of outside influence however there is a balance/acceptance of national vice very eager and able to share and contribute in the mix hence final product.

Edited January 17, 2014 by atyclb

[Nokbkk]

Thailiketo:

Osaka School Massacre Knife wielding man kills or severely wounds 21 children.

The Osaka School Massacre took place on June 8, 2001, at Ikeda Elementary School, an elite primary school affiliated with Osaka Kyoiku University in Osaka Prefecture, Japan.

Welcome Nobkk san to Thai Visa.

Sure, you can attack me on one word or one sentence out of the context. You are right, many other bad things happens in other countries. I guess I wrote: "Stupid example ? I have a (one) thousand more."

I hope you saw my point. Many won't like it, I know. Please comment on the whole picture, not just one sentence.

Thanks anyway for your welcome, even if I'am not a newbe. Had to take again and again another registration. Mods don't like my attitude, parts of my posts got censored. My answer all that time: I deleted my whole post, if censored.

For you: it's been 25 years since I first visited Thailand. Believe me, all those negative things about Thailand you see here on Thaivisa, makes me sick.

I like Thailand. I hate Pattaya, as so many other Thai people do.

[thailiketoo]

Thailiketo:

Osaka School Massacre Knife wielding man kills or severely wounds 21 children.

The Osaka School Massacre took place on June 8, 2001, at Ikeda Elementary School, an elite primary school affiliated with Osaka Kyoiku University in Osaka Prefecture, Japan.

Welcome Nobkk san to Thai Visa.

Sure, you can attack me on one word or one sentence out of the context. You are right, many other bad things happens in other countries. I guess I wrote: "Stupid example ? I have a (one) thousand more."

I hope you saw my point. Many won't like it, I know. Please comment on the whole picture, not just one sentence.

Thanks anyway for your welcome, even if I'am not a newbe. Had to take again and again another registration. Mods don't like my attitude, parts of my posts got censored. My answer all that time: I deleted my whole post, if censored.

For you: it's been 25 years since I first visited Thailand. Believe me, all those negative things about Thailand you see here on Thaivisa, makes me sick.

I like Thailand. I hate Pattaya, as so many other Thai people do.

I like Thailand. I like Pattaya. I like the USA. I got here in 1968. In case you wondered.

If you want to bash the USA or USA gun laws there are other forums to do that.

[wym]

We, western people, know all better than eastern (Thai) people ? Many call Thai people different, not smart, not willing to understand the way we think, live, etc.

I give you all one other example. This one is between the western people: North America versus West-Europe: (I live in a West-European country)

Many times North-America has incidents where a guy shoots his machine gun empty in school, at his workplace, etc. 5 to 25 people die, every time.

In Europe: we don't understand. Why America allows guns ? Why America has the fundamental right to own guns for almost everyone ? Fathers teach their 10 year old kid to shoot a gun ...

In Europe, we also have violent acts of criminals. Our cities also have high criminal rates. We don't understand why America is so naïve: the more guns on the street, the more people will be shot.

America answer: do not interfere, you don't understand, you are not American.

This is between two western countries, so close to each other. Stupid example ? I have one thousand more.

Why do you think your way is better than the Thai way. Why you are discontent when a Thai tells you to shut up because you are not Thai ?

If you want to understand, you have to think as a Thai. Not easy, you where born elsewhere.

It's not your county. Have some respect as a visitor in a foreign countrie, it's not yours. Don't enforce your western habbits.

Next time, ask her with respect. She will answer you. Not defending herself and Thailand by telling you to shut up.

Maybe now she is tired to tell you because you enforced your western way to her to many times. Then you need a long talk with her. Gain respect, show her you want to understand, instead of attacking her country, family, friends,or whatever.

Meanwhile, don't worry. Many Thai people think the same way about us as we do to them. We are the stupid ones, we are living the wrong way. And from their point of view, I think they are more on the right side than us, western people.

If you don't like it, stay home. Don't enforce Thailand your western way of life. See what happened (happens) in Pattaya or Phuket. That's us, Our interfering made it the biggest shitwhole of the world.

And we all laugh about it. Critisize it.

Excellent post.

However as an American I will answer your question about guns with a bit more logic.

The most fundamental principle of US politics is that the common people have the right to rise up in violent revolt against a bad government.

To make sure this is always possible in practice, we make sure it's illegal for the government to disarm the population. We realize that the price we pay for that is thousands of deaths per year, but we pay the same price for the right to drive private automobiles, drink alcohol, smoke cigarettes, eat junk food not have universal health care, it's a price we're willing to pay for all those things.

It's also the reason we make sure the leadership of the military is not allowed to interfere with politics, nor are soldiers at the beck and call of individual politicians.

Sure it's not a perfect system, but so far has ensured that the tyrannical dictatorship ruling the common people is a relatively diffuse group of rational capitalists rather than a single possibly insane despot.

[Curt1591]

If you want to bash the USA or USA gun laws there are other forums to do that.

It's OK; we're used to it!

However, it has nothing to do with the subject.

[dighambara]

ROTFLMAO...!!!

Humanity is insane - truly stated...LOL

[jamhar]

"You are not Thai; you don't understand."

My thai friends have never made that statement to me.

maybe a case of ymmv?

[Curt1591]

"You are not Thai; you don't understand."

My thai friends have never made that statement to me.

maybe a case of ymmv?

You must be extremely agreeable.

[LaraC]

I'm going to guess it means something more like "I can't be bothered to explain it to you."

Or "I don't have the capasity to explain it to you", "I've never questioned it, don't hurt my brain", "I have no idea what this farang is on about", "crazy farang go blah blah blah why I'm trying to work out what I want to eat".

Try asking more educated Thai, many are in fact happy to discuss deeper issues and attempt to explain. They too feel a sense of frustration that their general culture consists of a don't question attitude.

[atyclb]

Lets se, in the last few days at local restaurants (guess that would be a thai business) no foreign staff. I get so used to these things that you could say i am desensitized.

experience 1; I enter, maybe 4 tables, no apparent customers however all the chairs at the apparently patron-less tables are occupied by shopping bags and/or pocketbooks/ backpacks. After standing and browsing for an available seat a woman emerges from the back (kitchen area?) and directs the 3 employees in my area to remove their stuff from the chairs. Lets analyze this scenario. 3 apparent staff members, no customers(based on my subsequent observation from eating there) and customer seats unavailable due to bags etc on them.

Exactly how much analytical thinking ability is required to realize customers need to sit so they can eat? Then the fact that it took an additional person to actually direct them to remove the objects since I was standing there looking for an empty seat. This is "mind boggling stuff" even though i am somewhat desensitized and accept reality.

example 2; also restaurant. woman comes to my table and takes my order, leaves. 20 minutes later another employee comes to my table wanting to take my order. i tell her already given to "that woman (pointing at her) at which point the second woman tells me "she is young" referring to the first waitress that i guess never gave the order to the kitchen. once again, how many functional brain cells are needed to conclude an order must be submitted to the kitchen in a restaurant?

example 3; kind of stands out since my thinking thai friends were also intrigued more than standard levels. At apple computer store, hi end shopping mall. here supposedly staff are uni students or grads.

i hold my hand to a monitor and ask the salesperson what is the price of this monitor. he answers "out of stock"

next i ask him what is the usual price/ normal price. answer; out of stock. next i ask him "imagine you have it in stock, what would the price be? he sighs "ohhhhhh" then gives me the price. even thai customers in the store are watching us and seem amazed at this guy.

after that as i was doubting my own sanity i met with one thai friend that did a masters in england after abac uni. i repeated my sentences to her and asked her if my thai was correct and understandable. she said very clearly understandable.

in my entire life have not experienced such mind boggling events at japanese, korean, taiwanese places of business nor anything close.

now i wonder if you have any thoughts/ comments that might shed some light on this? within the framework of the said societies; japan, korea, taiwan, thailand.

regarding us military performance in iraq and afganistan i honestly do not have the expertise or background to make objective critique.

I go to a Japanese restaurant chain owned and operated by Thai people. I have been to this restaurant 100 times. The food has only been delivered to my table in the correct order 2 times.

It is because they don't have an expediter or an automatic expediter computer order system. It saves money and is not a lack of critical thinking. I don't agree and think they should spend the money.

I have discovered an answer like this to every difference in the Thai way as opposed to the Western way when I encounter things that seem odd to me. I was a visitor to Taiwan and Japan 40 years ago and must say I found similar odd occurrences.

What I have observed is Thailand is about 50 years behind the other industrial nations in Asia in many things and still relies on the peasant system of family labor in many businesses where it is inappropriate.

It seems dairy queen may need an expediter system also. yesterday i am the only customer. i ask her what flavor ice cream do you have.

A; vanilla and chocolate

Q; how many scoops are in a banana split

A; 3

Q; please give 2 scoops vanilla krap.

employee delays....... then asks me what flavor for 3rd scoop

at this point i feel like a primary school teacher that just gave a homework assignment.

# if johnny goes to the ice cream shop and they only have vanilla and chocolate ice cream, and a banana split has 3 scoops, if johnny orders 2 scoops vanilla what flavor will the 3rd scoop be, likely be, probably be, possibly be.

A) vanilla

chocolate

ok, i didn't want to be a cruel unfair person so i told her the answer.

i then ask for hot fudge (sauce chocolate raun) is the way to say in thai. she becomes suddenly frozen. no reply. doesn't say if that have hot sauce or dont have it. or say she does not know. finally another employee heard my mind boggling question and said they dont have it. fair enough.

Now I recall that seeing mrt / bts passengers not uncommonly placing their personal belongings, plastic shopping bags, cardboard boxes on adjacent passenger seats thereby depriving other people a seat. i have seen this during busy hours also. one even really takes the cake. a woman probably in her mid 30-s giving her umbrella 2 seats. yes, laying it down laterally so it's long axis was parallel to the back of the seats.

the above with many people standing. how many functional neurons does it take to realize humans are more important than a shopping bag on the seat.

Edited January 18, 2014 by atyclb