Unfair Pricing

[Ulysses G.]

How long how hard does an average thai have to work to earn 10baht?

How long how hard do you have to work to earn 200baht?

Sorry, but, when I was a teacher, many Thais were earning more than me, but I still had to pay 20 times more that they did.

Right now, I make fairly good money, but there are an awful lot of rich Thais who make much, much more. Why do they only have to pay 10 baht when I pay 200?

Because I'm a honky and that is racism.

Edited May 21, 2006 by Ulysses G.

[leftcross]

so what happens when you get some so-called hi-so thai pull up in his BMW (wheelspinning dirt into an isaan roadside stall vendor's face) to get into Dreamworld while a poor farang backpacker walks up to the kiosk at the same time???

cheap for rich thai, expensive for poor farang. that aint right.

[ZZZ]

People throw around racism around way to easily, by definition people can argue that countries who charge overseas students triple the price then a local (like they do all over the world) is racism, but its not.

Dual pricing is in no way based on racism

Dual pricing is based on appearance. If you appear to be Thai you pay the Thai price - if you appear to be not Thai you pay the farang price. It might not be racism but it's not far off.

I think you've got it a bit mixed-up there.

What dual pricing is based on is economics/business considerations, got nothing what so ever to do with racism.

How the dual pricing system is deployed can probably sometimes seem racist. It's all up to how the staff at the entrance to these places have been trained and instructed. Sometimes they have been told Farang pay more and sometimes non Thai pay more, either way it's open for interpretation for the poor worker at the gate.

Anyway, racism (the belief that one race is superior to another) has nothing to do with it.

[Nawtilus]

Well Donz, I was expecting the peacefull one to answer, but you will do.

There are 70 odd million Thais in this country.

At any time when I go to a national park, I am by far the minority in relation to Thai/farang visitors.

In all reality, what benefit do you really think the park gets from an extra 150 baht from a few foreigners each week.

I am not saying thais should pay 200b, but foreigners should not be made to pay 4 to 10 times the price either.

The national parks are for the protection of the national flora and fauna for the people of thailand heritage and culture. Should they not have the main interest here in providing this protection for their generations to come.

Why should they be hounered with a cheap price to save their heritage.

It is a blatant ripoff and they know it, why do they know it, cos when you ask any of them they have no explanation other than 'because they are farangs and they can afford it' simple stupidity and ignorance.

I am not sure what the policies are around the world for entry into various national treasures, but in Oz the nationals pay the same as the tourists and that is the way it should be.

I have always thought that a far better system if they cared to think about it and operate it, would be to charge the same price for all and offer a donation alternative for those that can afford it, make it in your face as much as possible and i would expect they would get some good income from it.

Blatant pricing like this alienates people and just creates far more problems than the extra cash it generates.

Goodwill is not a word known well here.

[meemiathai]

Whenever I'm in HK I don't get charged more for being a gweilo - why should I?

This is not entirely true. You just didn't know. HK people are much more cunning and skillful at it. You will walk out the door thinking you have been given special price.

[Donz]

Well Donz, I was expecting the peacefull one to answer, but you will do.

There are 70 odd million Thais in this country.

At any time when I go to a national park, I am by far the minority in relation to Thai/farang visitors.

In all reality, what benefit do you really think the park gets from an extra 150 baht from a few foreigners each week.

I am not saying thais should pay 200b, but foreigners should not be made to pay 4 to 10 times the price either.

The national parks are for the protection of the national flora and fauna for the people of thailand heritage and culture. Should they not have the main interest here in providing this protection for their generations to come.

Why should they be hounered with a cheap price to save their heritage.

It is a blatant ripoff and they know it, why do they know it, cos when you ask any of them they have no explanation other than 'because they are farangs and they can afford it' simple stupidity and ignorance.

I am not sure what the policies are around the world for entry into various national treasures, but in Oz the nationals pay the same as the tourists and that is the way it should be.

I have always thought that a far better system if they cared to think about it and operate it, would be to charge the same price for all and offer a donation alternative for those that can afford it, make it in your face as much as possible and i would expect they would get some good income from it.

Blatant pricing like this alienates people and just creates far more problems than the extra cash it generates.

Goodwill is not a word known well here.

I said thats the way of thinking and is an old system, i do not agree with it but thats what its based on, I believe it should be done another way like something like consession cards (but too hard to handle at the moment as other things need to be addressed first)

I just think people who just rant out it racism is are just arrogant and have no idea about Thai people as MOST are not racist.

[meemiathai]

Dual pricing is in no way based on racism

Of course it is.

We all know Japanese people who pay as locals, even though they have plenty of money and stand out to Thais as foreigners very easily.

Dual pricing is for WHITE PEOPLE.

[meemiathai]

I apologize... The task turned into a rather daunting one given the number of threads and the length of them on this often-discussed topic on racism and double-pricing.

A not-all-inclusive list for starters to peruse... Most likely, anything to be added in this will have been already covered in one or more of these:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=6012&hl=

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=777&hl=

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=8110&hl=

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=25027&hl=

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=52179&hl=

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=192&hl=

after perusing through 100+ posts on 8 pages of this thread looking for something... anything... that differs from what has already been said on one of these 7 previous threads.... and not finding any....

re-hash ... after re-hash... but please, everyone, proceed.... with a few dozen more pages of posts, we might even surpass some of the lengthier threads already in the archives...

I suppose that the racism involved in this issue is just too important and endearing not to pass along from one TV generation to another....

I had rice yesterday and I had rice today. They are the same rice and yes they taste differently each time.

[ColPyat]

Sorry, but i believe this post has escaped you, so i repost it:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think you have a few slightly warped ideas about farang in Thailand and confuse those rather negative stereotypes with this issue here.

First of all, in your first post on the topic you reason that because Thais in their own country are exploited that double prizing is permissable. blink.gif

Those are two different issues, and none of them are right. I concede that the issue of Thais being underpaid for their labor is a far more serious issue than our gripes about double prizing. Nevertheless - these issues are independent of each other.

Secondly, you allege that farang would not try to help improving those injustices for Thais. blink.gif

You cannot expect tourists to help change these inherent problems of Thai society. Expats though, especially the ones with Thai family generally have no other choice than trying to improve those injustices, as they directly effect our immediate environment. So yes, not just out of some mistaken altruism we do help improve things.

One of many resident farang gripes (mine especially) is that the Thai governments are not helping their own countrymen. If you are so fixed on personal experiences, listen to to one of my regular experiences: if my wife, her family, or one of my Thai friends from the under priviledged classes need to get something done in an official environment, very often i, a Thai speaking farang, have to accompany them as this cuts the burocratic terror they would otherwise experience down to a minimum.

Back to double prizing.

Two years ago i had a massive argument (in Thai) with some temple guards in Ayuthaya as i was refused the Thai price even though i produced my workpermit and tax card. Most definately i would have, as i do in most temples, have spent far more money by making a donation that what the entry would have cost. Which i didn't because i did not enter.

The issue here is not the money, it is the insulting attitude of this policy and especially the people guarding this policy.

I may have more money to spend than the average Thai citicen, that though puts me in Thai standards not much above middle class. The double tier prizing policy is not in relation to income or spending power. Otherwise the many Thais with more money than me would automatically have to pay more than me. Which they don't. They pay the same as the poorest of their fellow citizens has to pay.

I don't really care if it is racist, xenophic or whatever label one may attach to it - it is unfair and insulting, especially considering that expats like me do pay mostly far larger amounts of tax than the average Thai citicen, and in addition to that have to shoulder many burdens that should be in an ideal world the responsibility of the Thai government.

Yet though we are still singled out as being foreigners having to spend more more money than Thais because,... well, ... why exactly?

Care to explain coherently?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[samran]

A couple of observations:

Racism? Not really in my experience. I have a Thai ID card, but don't look at all Thai. I tried to get an Australian-Malaysian friend of mine into a Erawan National Park once, saying that she was born in thailand but couldn't speak thai...but that didn't fly...200 baht for her. My blond wife who lives he in BKK however, no problem on presentation of any of the ID mentioned, or presentation of a Tax ID card.

But they are just personal expereinces.

What we are witnessing is simply a very crude and blunt form of what economists call price descrimination. We actually see it every day in the west. There are seperate prices for entrance fees, cinema tickets etc. for children, adults, pensioners and others on benefits.

Price decrimination is all about squeezing as much out of a segment of customers without pricing them out of the market. You maximise the possible revenue out of every section of the market, and overall, your firm maximises the entire revenue possible.

If you have the luxury that only the top end segment/type of consumer consumes all of the goods you supply (or fills your national park to capacity), then you charge the highest price possible. But if they don't, well then you have to take into account the purchasing power of others, so that they do have to price lower so that they buy your product.

As I said, what happens in thailand is a blunt form of this. Thai = Cheap Price, Foreigners = Expensive price.

I guess if the central Thai civil service burecracy even cared about the issue, then something might happen one day. But I can guarantee you that they probably don't, and it would need one of the ever changing rota of ministers to actually push the reform through. But they don't hang around long enough anyway, given that a ministerial position is seen as a reward rather than a job here.

'At best' for good or bad, the situation you have at present is the one that you are going to have to live and work with.

As others have said time and again, if you can learn to speak a bit of Thai, get your hands on a Thai DL or tax ID, then the gate keepers to the national parks etc (most who I beleive think the policy is rediculous) will do anything to turn a blind eye.

As for private companies, well it is a tougher one to get around, but, you have choice, you can boycott ones that enforce such a policy. There isn't a monopoly on hotels and privately owened tourist attractions last time I looked. Sites like 'guesthouses' will help the way on that one.

[Ulysses G.]

Dual pricing is in no way based on racism

Of course it is.

We all know Japanese people who pay as locals, even though they have plenty of money and stand out to Thais as foreigners very easily.

Dual pricing is for WHITE PEOPLE.

Sniffing glue does that.

[ColPyat]

As others have said time and again, if you can learn to speak a bit of Thai, get your hands on a Thai DL or tax ID, then the gate keepers to the national parks etc (most who I beleive think the policy is rediculous) will do anything to turn a blind eye.

This is not necessarily true. I have come across the opposite even at times, that as soon as some of those gatekeepers heard me speaking Thai they became especially rude (and i know how to use polite Thai). It leaves us at the random attitudes of those gate keepers.

Anyhow, you are probably right that this policy is not going to change in the forseeable future, and we have to live with it. Fortunately the double pricing policy is not as all pervasive here as in places such as China.

It still ain't right though.

Edited May 21, 2006 by ColPyat

[Ulysses G.]

It still ain't right though.

[Donz]

As others have said time and again, if you can learn to speak a bit of Thai, get your hands on a Thai DL or tax ID, then the gate keepers to the national parks etc (most who I beleive think the policy is rediculous) will do anything to turn a blind eye.

This is not necessarily true. I have come across the opposite even at times, that as soon as some of those gatekeepers heard me speaking Thai they became especially rude (and i know how to use polite Thai). It leaves us at the random attitudes of those gate keepers.

Anyhow, you are probably right that this policy is not going to change in the forseeable future, and we have to live with it. Fortunately the double pricing policy is not as all pervasive here as in places such as China.

It still ain't right though.

Dual pricing would be right if done properly, like consession cards etc but alot of other things need to be fixed first because getting a fake one would be too easy.

Its just the country is not advanced enough yet for it to be effective

[meemiathai]

Sorry, but i believe this post has escaped you, so i repost it:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think you have a few slightly warped ideas about farang in Thailand and confuse those rather negative stereotypes with this issue here.

//

No it hasn't.

As I have said, english is not my language. So it requires a lot of concentration to try to understand a long post and to reply to it. But ok I'll try.

First of all, in your first post on the topic you reason that because Thais in their own country are exploited that double prizing is permissable. blink.gif

Those are two different issues, and none of them are right. I concede that the issue of Thais being underpaid for their labor is a far more serious issue than our gripes about double prizing. Nevertheless - these issues are independent of each other.

Did I say anything otherwise? Should it be difficult to understand that there is little we can do to change the situation of Thais exploiting Thais?

Independent of each other? Yes but inseparable. This is a whole package.

Secondly, you allege that farang would not try to help improving those injustices for Thais. blink.gif

You cannot expect tourists to help change these inherent problems of Thai society.

So you are a tourist? And so are most members here?

Sorry I tried. I can't respond as I'm not quite sure what I'm suppose to respond to. My incapability I suppose. If all the posts I have made did not answer you in any way. Then let it be.

Yet though we are still singled out as being foreigners having to spend more more money than Thais because,... well, ... why exactly?

I really don't know how much more more money you are spending? You mean the 180 baht extra to enter national parks? My stupid answer then is TiT. This is reality.

[monochaser]

Jdinasia, yes I did omit the last part since they are two different things; "Most of the places with dual pricing are built for the tourists..." vs "As for venues paid for with tax money, like nature reserves..."

I hardly consider a restaurant paid by tax money, yet, some restaurants do have dual pricing. One place actually refused a few of us service since one person had simply asked why the food was double the price for "foreigners." Looking around, the servings were the same for everyone. No problem, we won't go back, and we tell people about the incident and let them decide.

Hotels, clinics, nightclubs, resorts, photo shops, travel agencies, or crocodile farms. Not all of these were built for tourists, nor did they require tax money to build. I'm certainly not cheap, but each incident I view in its own merit. Do I mind paying an extra 20 baht? Usually, no. Again, it depends on what it is for that extra 20 baht. Fresh baked bread from a vendor in Bang Kapi 15baht, for me, 45baht. No thanks. Bang Kapi is not a tourist destination, the vendor did not "build" her business for foreigners and no tax money used. Word of mouth to colleagues and she loses business in the end. That's okay as well.

All of us differ in our views, and that's fine, but personally I disagree with dual pricing. About Dusit Zoo, my bag on that one.

I love a thread like this so the Thailand is perfect crown can come out and gripe about pennies, showing their true stars. I have something to say to these people, the same thing they say to so many others who complain about other things in this country; GO HOME if you dont like it. LOL. Finally the Thais and I agree on something; stick it to these cheapskates. I love it

[monochaser]

It ought to be pointed out that EVERYONE who spends any money in Thailand is a taxpayer as they'e paying 7% VAT.

Utter nonsense

[monochaser]

Foreigners are never made to pay more, it is Thais that are paying a bit less.

very good post on explaining to cheapskates how this system works.

'kinell, it's like banging yer head against a brick wall. ZZZZZZ, so how do you explain the price for national park entry going up 10-fold for foreigners and Thai price staying the same? Nothing to do with them grabbing what they can?

Mono; not wanting to pay way over the odds has got bugger all to do with being a cheapskate, it's called not enjoying taking one up the ass

LOL, now that last comment I will not argue with.

[monochaser]

Another thing: I suppose Ladies Night at the local bar is racist and unfair

[scotsman]

Do you think farangs act the same in Thailand as they do in their own countries?

My observation is they don't. They feel free to lose their temper here with the thai people whilst they are like goose in their own countries. Coz farangs take no shit from farangs.

I think you have a few slightly warped ideas about farang in Thailand and confuse those rather negative stereotypes with this issue here.

First of all, in your first post on the topic you reason that because Thais in their own country are exploited that double prizing is permissable.

Those are two different issues, and none of them are right. I concede that the issue of Thais being underpaid for their labor is a far more serious issue than our gripes about double prizing. Nevertheless - these issues are independent of each other.

Secondly, you allege that farang would not try to help improving those injustices for Thais.

You cannot expect tourists to help change these inherent problems of Thai society. Expats though, especially the ones with Thai family generally have no other choice than trying to improve those injustices, as they directly effect our immediate environment. So yes, not just out of some mistaken altruism we do help improve things.

One of many resident farang gripes (mine especially) is that the Thai governments are not helping their own countrymen. If you are so fixed on personal experiences, listen to to one of my regular experiences: if my wife, her family, or one of my Thai friends from the under priviledged classes need to get something done in an official environment, very often i, a Thai speaking farang, have to accompany them as this cuts the burocratic terror they would otherwise experience down to a minimum.

Back to double prizing.

Two years ago i had a massive argument (in Thai) with some temple guards in Ayuthaya as i was refused the Thai price even though i produced my workpermit and tax card. Most definately i would have, as i do in most temples, have spent far more money by making a donation that what the entry would have cost. Which i didn't because i did not enter.

The issue here is not the money, it is the insulting attitude of this policy and especially the people guarding this policy.

I may have more money to spend than the average Thai citicen, that though puts me in Thai standards not much above middle class. The double tier prizing policy is not in relation to income or spending power. Otherwise the many Thais with more money than me would automatically have to pay more than me. Which they don't. They pay the same as the poorest of their fellow citizens has to pay.

I don't really care if it is racist, xenophic or whatever label one may attach to it - it is unfair and insulting, especially considering that expats like me do pay mostly far larger amounts of tax than the average Thai citicen, and in addition to that have to shoulder many burdens that should be in an ideal world the responsibility of the Thai government.

Yet though we are still singled out as being foreigners having to spend more more money than Thais because,... well, ... why exactly?

Care to explain coherently?

[/quote

I agree with a lot of what is said in this post If you have principles then you will not pay the double or more price and walk away. If you dont care about the double or more price then you will pay its up to you. I choose to walk when I am asked to pay double or more even on baht taxis in pattaya and its not the money its the principle but thats just what I was taught in my family.

[GuestHouse]

Once again the answer to someone disagreeing with you on a point regarding life in Thailand is to tell them "to go home".

The utter worst of expatriates in Thailand, biggots who would deny other's their opinions.

I guess its easier than having an inteligent well thought out response.

[chuchok]

Once again the answer to someone disagreeing with you on a point regarding life in Thailand is to tell them "to go home".

The utter worst of expatriates in Thailand, biggots who would deny other's their opinions.

I guess its easier than having an inteligent well thought out response.

Couldn't agree more.monochaser seems to enjoy using the old "don't like it go home" bs.

[meemiathai]

Once again the answer to someone disagreeing with you on a point regarding life in Thailand is to tell them "to go home".

The utter worst of expatriates in Thailand, biggots who would deny other's their opinions.

I guess its easier than having an inteligent well thought out response.

I thought telling one "to go home" was also an opinion? No?

[frodo]

Jdinasia, yes I did omit the last part since they are two different things; "Most of the places with dual pricing are built for the tourists..." vs "As for venues paid for with tax money, like nature reserves..."

I hardly consider a restaurant paid by tax money, yet, some restaurants do have dual pricing. One place actually refused a few of us service since one person had simply asked why the food was double the price for "foreigners." Looking around, the servings were the same for everyone. No problem, we won't go back, and we tell people about the incident and let them decide.

Hotels, clinics, nightclubs, resorts, photo shops, travel agencies, or crocodile farms. Not all of these were built for tourists, nor did they require tax money to build. I'm certainly not cheap, but each incident I view in its own merit. Do I mind paying an extra 20 baht? Usually, no. Again, it depends on what it is for that extra 20 baht. Fresh baked bread from a vendor in Bang Kapi 15baht, for me, 45baht. No thanks. Bang Kapi is not a tourist destination, the vendor did not "build" her business for foreigners and no tax money used. Word of mouth to colleagues and she loses business in the end. That's okay as well.

All of us differ in our views, and that's fine, but personally I disagree with dual pricing. About Dusit Zoo, my bag on that one.

I love a thread like this so the Thailand is perfect crown can come out and gripe about pennies, showing their true stars. I have something to say to these people, the same thing they say to so many others who complain about other things in this country; GO HOME if you dont like it. LOL. Finally the Thais and I agree on something; stick it to these cheapskates. I love it

A perfect crown? I beg to differ, it was merely a statement about something called principles and honesty. I could care less if it is about a small amount or a large amount. Rather, it is the principle of the matter. I can never figure out why people assume that when anyone brings up a point, no matter how significant or insignificant, one of the first things written is, "...complain about other things in this country; GO HOME if you dont like it." Read it again and you'll see there are no complaints, only a few single incidents and an opinion shared. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not always about money, but the principle behind it. Once again, views differ, that's fine. I don't really care how you spend your money, and you needn't be concerned how I spend mine.

[Guest endure]

It ought to be pointed out that EVERYONE who spends any money in Thailand is a taxpayer as they'e paying 7% VAT.

Utter nonsense

Well? Is that it? Aren't you going to tell us why it's 'utter nonsense? Are you going to explain that perhaps VAT isn't charged at 7% on purchases made in Thailand and thus EVERYONE who makes a purchase in Thailand is a taxpayer?

[Guest endure]

What does also bother me is the claim of racism on this issue. Come on, farangs! Give me a break! Most farangs sub-consciously or conciously think they are better than asians. So.... this is racism.

No - what you just said is racism. You're making generalisations about a whole group of people based on their race.

[mark45y]

It is rare that I agree with moonchaser.

In this case he has the principle correct. If you want something in Thailand pay the price, pay the bribe, pay the lady, pay the clerk, pay the officer or whoever. The operative word is pay.

If you are looking for fair and equal or quotas or affirmative action go somewhere where those values have some meaning.

Perhaps there has been an Indian or black person on this forum talking about Thais not being racist but I doubt it.

As a Farang you are going to be the object of dual pricing. As an Indian or black person you are going to be the object of discrimination. As a Farang, white guy, you will be the object of adoration (rock star status) by a large number of Thai females. As a Farang female you will be the object of adoration (rock star status) by a large number of Thai males. The whiteness of your skin and the bridge of your nose subtracts 20 pounds from your frame and 20 years from your age and adds a few pennies to the bill when you enter national institutions.

As a Farang in the same day you may be discriminated against in the morning and asked to join the board of a prestigious company in the afternoon based on the whiteness of your skin and your suit and what kind of pen you are carrying.

You don’t ever get fair and equal treatment in Thailand. Sometimes you get more and sometimes you get less but rarely do you get the same.

Why do you complain?

You get unequal treatment every day in Thailand.

There are scores of places in Thailand where a Farang can go that a Thai can’t.

I belong to two clubs that would never admit a Thai, in point of fact they had a two day debate whether to admit an American.

There are thousands of places in Thailand where men can go that women are prohibited from going. There are hundreds of places in Thailand where a Japanese male can go that a white guy can not go.

It Thailand. It is not the UK or the US.

Is this your first time away from home?

Some of you people remind me of the male friend of mine who walked into the lesbian leather bar in LA and was surprised he got beat up.

Edited May 21, 2006 by mark45y

[Guest endure]

People throw around racism around way to easily, by definition people can argue that countries who charge overseas students triple the price then a local (like they do all over the world) is racism, but its not.

Dual pricing is in no way based on racism

Dual pricing is based on appearance. If you appear to be Thai you pay the Thai price - if you appear to be not Thai you pay the farang price. It might not be racism but it's not far off.

That isn't necessary true. I'm Thai and the Ambassador hotel still asked me to pay premiums

There are always exceptions but most double pricing decisions are made on the appearance of the customer.

[Guest endure]

Citizens should get into their own parks at a reduced price.

Why is this, what reasoning do you have for this kind of thought ?

Its because most of the country was dirt poor and couldnt afford it while tourists definately can, its more important letting the poor people see there country then it is about thr rich paying 2 different prices.

I personally think they should do it a different way but thats the reasoning behind that

Do Thai Mercedes owners pay the tourist price?

[Guest endure]

So what is fair pricing?

To me fair pricing would be when I think that the work I have to do to earn the price I have to pay is worth it. It has nothing to do with what enyone else have to pay as their criterias are different.

I feel sorry for anyone who can not live with the fact that someone else is paying less than them for something as this is actually happening with everything you buy, no matter what you buy or pay for there is someone, somewhere paying less.

Please let me buy you a drink, ZZZ.

Exactly what I am talking about. The amount of work one has done in exchange for the amount of things one gets in return. Fair enough?

So if it's fair pricing for a Thai to pay 10bt to enter a national park what extra work has to be done so that it's necessary to charge a farang 200bt?

How long how hard does an average thai have to work to earn 10baht?

How long how hard do you have to work to earn 200baht?

How much does it cost to prepare the park for a visit by a Thai?

How much does it cost to prepare the park for a visit by a farang?

How do you think Thais here in the UK would react if they were told they had to pay 10 times as much to visit a UK national park or twice as much to stay in a UK hotel?