Poverty Amongst Farangs in Chiang Mai

[sharktooth]

Looking at some of the posts on here, is poverty a real problem with farangs here? No tipping, 20 baht whinges over some red car, common request for cheap services and the latest one... burning candles to keep warm. Are we living in the Middle Ages? The impression I get is that a lot of these folk are either poverty stricken, or tight as a gnats chuff?

[Chiengmaijoe]

The latter. After a year or two of living here a fair few, but by no means all, become obsessive about the cost of everything irrespective of how much money they have. It's a manifestation of Culture Shock, with a hint of Paranoia that leaves them feeling that everyone is out to cheat them, so they over-react, and before you know it 5 baht is a significant amount of money. Their catchphrase is 'It's not the money, it's the principle'.

Technically they are mentally ill so really you should pity them rather than mock them, but sometimes it's hard to resist, partly because they take themselves so seriously but mostly because they're so funny getting all worked up about nothing.

Edited January 18, 2014 by Chiengmaijoe

[wigantojapan]

the other side of the coin is farang who employ maids and domestic workers and wont pay the minimum wage as there is a loop hole in Thai law regarding domestic workers wages

[mesquite]

Observe the Chinese, talk to local business owners, and you will find they are as cheap as they come, putting these "kineow" farangs to shame. The Chinese will demand discounts for Thai massages,180 instead of 200 THB, whereas the cheap farang will pay the full 200 and no tip or maybe 20THB.

I used to tease and give a little crap to cheap farangs who wouldn't tip. Now I say more power to them, and I myself have cut the amount of my tips by quite a bit. Some day I'll join the enlightened few.

Edited January 18, 2014 by mesquite

[Ulysses G.]

A lot of farangs have come here and worked as English teachers, making Thai wages for many years. They had to pay the real prices in order to survive and once they have gotten used to it, they don't want to pay more, simply because they have white skin. Other Westerners have been paying much more than Thais from the time that they arrived here and have accepted it as "normal". If it does not bother them, why should it bother anyone else?

Edited January 18, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Jose]

Looking at some of the posts on here, is poverty a real problem with farangs here?

You may have hit a raw nerve there...

Shhh... Don't disturb the elephant in the room

[Bung]

I've been pondering this myself lately...lots of posts about people having some sort of incident or another on baht buses and sorng toews makes me ask why don't these people just have a car? Can these people seriously not afford to own a car here? It's just 1-200k baht for something reliable enough, a couple of grand, who would come here to live and not be able to afford a car? Or a scooter even! (Although I can understand someone not knowing how to ride a scooter although it's not that different to a bicycle...) I'm not talking about tourists, I see guys walking out of my moo baan in the stinking heat or rain the 2-3 kilometres it takes to get to the main road and catch a bus full of poor locals to get pick pocketed and ripped off then cart all their shopping home later. (No doubt rifling through the specials bin at the supermarket )

[wigantojapan]

Is there for honest Poverty
That hings his head, an' a' that;
The coward slave-we pass him by,
We dare be poor for a' that!
For a' that, an' a' that.
Our toils obscure an' a' that,
The rank is but the guinea's stamp,
The Man's the gowd for a' that.

What though on hamely fare we dine,
Wear hoddin grey, an' a that;
Gie fools their silks, and knaves their wine;
A Man's a Man for a' that:
For a' that, and a' that,
Their tinsel show, an' a' that;
The honest man, tho' e'er sae poor,
Is king o' men for a' that.

Ye see yon birkie, ca'd a lord,
Wha struts, an' stares, an' a' that;
Tho' hundreds worship at his word,
He's but a coof for a' that:
For a' that, an' a' that,
His ribband, star, an' a' that:
The man o' independent mind
He looks an' laughs at a' that.

A prince can mak a belted knight,
A marquis, duke, an' a' that;
But an honest man's abon his might,
Gude faith, he maunna fa' that!
For a' that, an' a' that,
Their dignities an' a' that;
The pith o' sense, an' pride o' worth,
Are higher rank than a' that.

Then let us pray that come it may,
(As come it will for a' that,)
That Sense and Worth, o'er a' the earth,
Shall bear the gree, an' a' that.
For a' that, an' a' that,
It's coming yet for a' that,
That Man to Man, the world o'er,
Shall brothers be for a' that.

[Bung]

^ Bit early for that.....

[Loaded]

the other side of the coin is farang who employ maids and domestic workers and wont pay the minimum wage as there is a loop hole in Thai law regarding domestic workers wages

It's very difficult to find competent and reliable domestic staff. For sure, if you don't pay much more than the legal minimum, you won't have domestic staff.

[vagabond48]

And then there are those who are just plain judgmental just because some people don't follow their particular lifestyle.

How 'bout the old adage, "to each his (her) own" as long as these people don't hurt you.

[worgeordie]

The latter. After a year or two of living here a fair few, but by no means all, become obsessive about the cost of everything irrespective of how much money they have. It's a manifestation of Culture Shock, with a hint of Paranoia that leaves them feeling that everyone is out to cheat them, so they over-react, and before you know it 5 baht is a significant amount of money. Their catchphrase is 'It's not the money, it's the principle'.

Technically they are mentally ill so really you should pity them rather than mock them, but sometimes it's hard to resist, partly because they take themselves so seriously but mostly because they're so funny getting all worked up about nothing.

Hi Chianmaijoe, Always the Philosopher and Psychiatrist in the latter remark.

you seem to know people better than they know themselves,maybe you study

people,listen to their conversations,then pronounce your judgment upon them.

regards Worgeordie

[trainman34014]

What other people want to spend is up to them and none of my business. What other people want to tip is none of my business, although the Yanks are just crazy tippers, seen it there and seen it here. However; it's their money and if they want to chuck it away then so be it. Likewise; what i spend is up to me and nobody else's business, can't understand why people get so worked up about Cheap Charlie's or Loadsamoney's. After all, do we ever worry about it in our own country ?

[eyecatcher]

I am a cheap charlie, I am also very wise with money and hence I am now very well off.

And despite some thinking that's mental illness I assure you I don't have it.

But remember we have to budget for the next 20yrs not the next month so I don't want to be panicking that's its all gone after 5 years....and I am sure you don't either

[chiang mai]

Those of us that over 55 have assets that need to last for the rest of our lives, we don't necessarily have the option of returning to work after a one or two month holiday where we spend like crazy because we've saved for it! And since we don't really know whether we're going to be around for ten more years or forty, it's kind of a moving target. We also have to pay close attention to the global economy, the crash in 2007 came as a surprise to many, what other surprises lurk around the corner!

For my part I have cut back on my expense over and above what I was spending ten years ago, but I don't want for anything and I live very comfortably.

[cardinalblue]

Why should I leave more than 20 baht if Thais leave nothing? Shouldn't we do what the Thais do to experience their culture?

Besides tips should be based on service and restaurant ranges from ave to poor...

And anyone want to debate 10% service charge at specific places? It's like the recent addition of adding the word "green" to their name, the greenery the green mall the green villa the green plaza etc...nothing green about them as a complete lack of understanding exhibited...same same with service...and yes there are exceptions like Dukes where the staff has actually been trained about service but it is so rare otherwise...

[Impkenai]

There are many farangs living and surviving just on their pension. And we know pensions are rather meagre so they have to make it last. Anyway it's a better life living in Thailand than in their home country on the pension they're receiving.

Of course there are those whose nature is miserly. So to each his own.

[Ricardo]

I think one becomes more aware of value-for-money, when the Pound (or Dollar, or whatever) buys 42 Baht instead of 75 Baht !

[Genericnic]

Observe the Chinese, talk to local business owners, and you will find they are as cheap as they come, putting these "kineow" farangs to shame. The Chinese will demand discounts for Thai massages,180 instead of 200 THB, whereas the cheap farang will pay the full 200 and no tip or maybe 20THB.

I used to tease and give a little crap to cheap farangs who wouldn't tip. Now I say more power to them, and I myself have cut the amount of my tips by quite a bit. Some day I'll join the enlightened few.

The Chinese were known to be cheap long ago. About 15 years ago, I was in Pokhara in central Nepal. I had been hanging out for the day with a group of about 5 or 6 young Chinese that were traveling in Nepal. We were in a small shop and I watched the group do some hard bargaining with the shop owner. After about 20 minutes of bargaining, we left and they had bought nothing despite the hard bargaining. I was staying in Pokhara for a few days and went by the shop again a couple of days later. I spoke to the owner about what I had seen and he said he always hated to have Chinese come to his shop because they always wanted to bargain to get to the last rupee and then seldom bought anything. From what I have seen of the Chinese tourists in Chiang Mai, they haven't changed much in the past decade plus.

David

[Oscar2]

Observe the Chinese, talk to local business owners, and you will find they are as cheap as they come, putting these "kineow" farangs to shame. The Chinese will demand discounts for Thai massages,180 instead of 200 THB, whereas the cheap farang will pay the full 200 and no tip or maybe 20THB.

I used to tease and give a little crap to cheap farangs who wouldn't tip. Now I say more power to them, and I myself have cut the amount of my tips by quite a bit. Some day I'll join the enlightened few.

The Chinese were known to be cheap long ago. About 15 years ago, I was in Pokhara in central Nepal. I had been hanging out for the day with a group of about 5 or 6 young Chinese that were traveling in Nepal. We were in a small shop and I watched the group do some hard bargaining with the shop owner. After about 20 minutes of bargaining, we left and they had bought nothing despite the hard bargaining. I was staying in Pokhara for a few days and went by the shop again a couple of days later. I spoke to the owner about what I had seen and he said he always hated to have Chinese come to his shop because they always wanted to bargain to get to the last rupee and then seldom bought anything. From what I have seen of the Chinese tourists in Chiang Mai, they haven't changed much in the past decade plus.

David

i disagree. i know quite a few business people here in C.M. they are quite pleased with the Chinese tourism at the moment. yes the Chinese do drive a hard bargain but they do end up purchasing in the end. they buy a great deal of souvenirs to take back to China to give friends and family. they buy literally everything there is to buy. i was in the Post Office the other day and they were buying postage stamps depicting the King as souvenirs. the guy at the Post Office said he figured he had sold close to 20K Bath worth of stamps so far that morning to Chinese tourists. they buy large amounts of everything.

[Chiengmaijoe]

The latter. After a year or two of living here a fair few, but by no means all, become obsessive about the cost of everything irrespective of how much money they have. It's a manifestation of Culture Shock, with a hint of Paranoia that leaves them feeling that everyone is out to cheat them, so they over-react, and before you know it 5 baht is a significant amount of money. Their catchphrase is 'It's not the money, it's the principle'.

Technically they are mentally ill so really you should pity them rather than mock them, but sometimes it's hard to resist, partly because they take themselves so seriously but mostly because they're so funny getting all worked up about nothing.

Hi Chianmaijoe, Always the Philosopher and Psychiatrist in the latter remark.

you seem to know people better than they know themselves,maybe you study

people,listen to their conversations,then pronounce your judgment upon them.

regards Worgeordie

That's very perceptive of you, well done. I'll reserve my judgement on you till later, as Geordies can be a bit Schizophrenic with occasional Delusions of Grandeur often related to the achievements, or lack thereof, of their football team.

[worgeordie]

The latter. After a year or two of living here a fair few, but by no means all, become obsessive about the cost of everything irrespective of how much money they have. It's a manifestation of Culture Shock, with a hint of Paranoia that leaves them feeling that everyone is out to cheat them, so they over-react, and before you know it 5 baht is a significant amount of money. Their catchphrase is 'It's not the money, it's the principle'.

Technically they are mentally ill so really you should pity them rather than mock them, but sometimes it's hard to resist, partly because they take themselves so seriously but mostly because they're so funny getting all worked up about nothing.

Hi Chianmaijoe, Always the Philosopher and Psychiatrist in the latter remark.

you seem to know people better than they know themselves,maybe you study

people,listen to their conversations,then pronounce your judgment upon them.

regards Worgeordie

That's very perceptive of you, well done. I'll reserve my judgement on you till later, as Geordies can be a bit Schizophrenic with occasional Delusions of Grandeur often related to the achievements, or lack thereof, of their football team.

Hi Chiangmaijoe, You seem to be the perceptive one,knowing everything about everyone,then forming your

opinion,please don't judge me without knowing me,Schizophrenic and Psychopathic I may be, but it has nothing ,

to do with been a Geordie,and to criticize a mans football team is a very low blow,even though they can be <deleted>.

sometimes.

Regards Worgeordie

[anonymouse]

(No doubt rifling through the specials bin at the supermarket )

Well I'm guilty of this.. I picked up some nice Waitrose Cheddar Cheese 70 baht and some half price lasagne at Central Festival the other day, I don't drive a car here either,,this probably makes me some sort of hobo in your eyes

[uptheos]

(No doubt rifling through the specials bin at the supermarket )

Well I'm guilty of this.. I picked up some nice Waitrose Cheddar Cheese 70 baht and some half price lasagne at Central Festival the other day, I don't drive a car here either,,this probably makes me some sort of hobo in your eyes

Makes you bloody sensible!

[HaleySabai]

Are we living in the Middle Ages?

......Im surrounded by the 19th century....but with internet I don't mind... the price is right!

[NancyL]

There is a certain portion of the resident foreign population who are retirees living on very small pensions. It doesn't help that the internet is full of websites that promote Chiang Mai as a place where you can live like a king for less than $500 per month -- websites run by people who make their living preying on these poor unfortunate souls. Add to that the many magazine articles that always seem to list Chiang Mai as one of the top ten global retirement havens -- low cost of living is always one of the top selling points.

Many retirees have a pension income of about 25,000 - 32,000 baht/month. That's their sole source of income. They'd be hard pressed to live on that in the their home countries, undoubtedly working as a greeter at Walmart if they were able to make ends meet. Here they can have a pretty nice life, but don't have much extra. Certainly can't afford to buy a car and probably not even a scooter. Often they're in huge trouble if they have a major medical problem. The smart ones have some savings they carefully guard for emergencies like a broken hip, but many live month-to-month, spending their entire pension check, like they have their entire life.

Edited January 19, 2014 by NancyL

[FiftyTwo]

Tipping is not a Thai custom (the country we are in).

Tipping is not an English custom (the country I am from).

You do what your culture tells you, and leave the rest of us alone.

America almost destroyed the world (cold war), and is still doing it's best to ruin what is left (killing Muslims, using the earth's resources), we don't need you telling us how to behave abroad.

Edited January 19, 2014 by FiftyTwo

[onthedarkside]

Tipping is not a Thai custom (the country we are in).

Tipping is not an English custom (the country I am from).

You do what your culture tells you, and leave the rest of us alone.

I would agree with that .... in the distant past.

When i arrived in Thailand (a long time ago) all the travel books said that tipping was not necessary in Thailand. Even these days my Thai wife tells me to leave only 20 baht maximum no matter the price on the bill. But 'these' days I leave at least 10% of the bill value (assuming no service charge - then I leave nothing). If service and food quality exceptional then I up to 20%

[Sparkles]

There is a certain portion of the resident foreign population who are retirees living on very small pensions. It doesn't help that the internet is full of websites that promote Chiang Mai as a place where you can live like a king for less than $500 per month -- websites run by people who make their living preying on these poor unfortunate souls. Add to that the many magazine articles that always seem to list Chiang Mai as one of the top ten global retirement havens -- low cost of living is always one of the top selling points.

Many retirees have a pension income of about 25,000 - 32,000 baht/month. That's their sole source of income. They'd be hard pressed to live on that in the their home countries, undoubtedly working as a greeter at Walmart if they were able to make ends meet. Here they can have a pretty nice life, but don't have much extra. Certainly can't afford to buy a car and probably not even a scooter. Often they're in huge trouble if they have a major medical problem. The smart ones have some savings they carefully guard for emergencies like a broken hip, but many live month-to-month, spending their entire pension check, like they have their entire life.

Nancy Agree and would suggest that it's a growing number of resident foreign population that live here as they simply can't afford to live in their own country unless they want to live a very demeaning,depressing ,week to week, existence. Many people find themselves in this position through job losses, business failures, divorces ,ill health and many other reasons.

Australian expats on this forum would be well aware that the cost of living back home has sky rocketed and from being one of the cheapest places to live its elevated itself to one of the most expensive, hence the fall in tourist visitations and people moving here, and other parts of Asia ,simply to live out their declining years in relative comfort. I meet them all the time.

My Thai wife and I live a frugal lifestyle and by that I mean we don't go to 5 star hotels for the 4,000 baht Christmas lunch nor are we interested in expensive restaurants/staying at boutique hotels etc,been there, done that.However by living frugally doesn't mean going without its just adjusting your lifestyle to your budget and enjoying every day.

There are those that tend to sneer at people who adapt to a frugal living pattern, that is contrary to living as they do, I hear so often "I can't live on less than 60,000 baht a month" well you can and many do and dare I say are no less happier doing so.

[northernjohn]

Tipping is not a Thai custom (the country we are in).

Tipping is not an English custom (the country I am from).

You do what your culture tells you, and leave the rest of us alone.

I would agree with that .... in the distant past.

When i arrived in Thailand (a long time ago) all the travel books said that tipping was not necessary in Thailand. Even these days my Thai wife tells me to leave only 20 baht maximum no matter the price on the bill. But 'these' days I leave at least 10% of the bill value (assuming no service charge - then I leave nothing). If service and food quality exceptional then I up to 20%

Yes times change and cultures change. I am not as generous as you but I do agree with your wife. To not leave it I feel like I am in the wrong. People talk about how much money we add to the economy. Well it is really felt more by the tips we leave. The rest is just to support an existence economy. I can afford it so why not. I will on occasion leave more if the bill is large. It means a lot to the people who receive it and it really doesn't cost me enough money to make a difference in the way I live.

How ever as Nancy pointed out there are a lot of teachers here earning 20,000 to 30,000 per month plus expats living here on small pensions who it would make a difference to. Myself as an expat meeting the financial requirements can obviously afford it.

It is part of my culture that I have brought over with me and so far no Thai has got upset with me for using it and I have to admit that I have changed. 20 baht is cheap compared to what I paid at home.