Thaksin Returns As Pm

[ColPyat]

Strangely again ... this thread isn't about Chamlong ...

and since Chamlong and Sondi are not running for office they are kinda moot ...

(though I think all of Chamlong's behaviour cited was Pre-Santi Asoke)

We will all know so much more on Friday ... so I guess this is all space filler!)

Since Chamlong and Sondhi are the mein instigators of the demonstrations that forced Thaksin to call in new elections they are "kinda" essential to the present political situation, and the topic at hand...

And, no, not all accusations are pre Santi Asoke. The accusation of abetting the drugwar killings and the Tak Bai massacre still stand as Chamlong has never distanced himself from those incidents. Therefore, the wonderful transformation from Saulus into Paulus is not exactly complete, regardless of the carefully nurtured public image.

Edited June 12, 2006 by ColPyat

[jdinasia]

abetting?

you mean not speaking out against a guy that you claim is horribly vindictive? sorry that's a no go argument ...

[ovenman]

Thaksin wont go voluntarily because he is sure to risk jail time and be parted from his fortune.

No doubt that avoiding prison time or having even a single satang of his fortune confiscated is what now keeps him in the game. I'm sure he could leave Thailand tomorrow and hole up forever somewhere like the UK, US, Canada, etc. but the last thing that Mr. Big would want is to be some rich nobody in any of those places.

I don’t think he would go there. Too many laws that can send him back to Thailand. Someplace in South America would be more hospitable. He may even be semi protected by drug lords for knocking out competition. He may feel right at home there.

Theoretically, yes. But the existence of such laws and extradition treaties haven't stopped Rakesh Saxena from hiding out in Vancouver for going on ten years now with his embezzled millions.

[hammered]

Strangely again ... this thread isn't about Chamlong ...

and since Chamlong and Sondi are not running for office they are kinda moot ...

(though I think all of Chamlong's behaviour cited was Pre-Santi Asoke)

We will all know so much more on Friday ... so I guess this is all space filler!)

Since Chamlong and Sondhi are the mein instigators of the demonstrations that forced Thaksin to call in new elections they are "kinda" essential to the present political situation, and the topic at hand...

And, no, not all accusations are pre Santi Asoke. The accusation of abetting the drugwar killings and the Tak Bai massacre still stand as Chamlong has never distanced himself from those incidents. Therefore, the wonderful transformation from Saulus into Paulus is not exactly complete, regardless of the carefully nurtured public image.

To claim the street demos "forced" Thaksin to call new elections is somewhat moot. There is another opinion that goes he called them to avoid parliamentary scrutiny and an impending impeachment.

[jdinasia]

specious would be a better word than moot there Hammered

[John K]

Well for stress management only;

Brazilian women are easy on the eyes and the climate is nice. On the other note, dealing with Canadian, USA, and UK winters can suck of you don’t have a good DVD collection.

Hmmm I guess this is just filler until Friday...

[Donnyboy]

Yes I am sure that is very true, and that is only the tip of the iceberg. It would seem right now he is like a duck. Above the water he appears graceful moving about. Below the water he is paddling like crazy.

I think things in the next 2 weeks will be like cluster bomb going off. Bits and pieces of his empire exploding all around by one of the few laws he forgot to change.

I think this is a good time to make some popcorn then sit back and watch.

maybe a good idea if a major brewery could come up with some tv advertising rights and have the commentary in english

[ColPyat]

abetting?

you mean not speaking out against a guy that you claim is horribly vindictive? sorry that's a no go argument ...

But now, after the Shincorp sale, they appearantly are not overtly intimidated by Thaksin, and not only speak out, but insult him and his family. They even accuse him of overthrowing the monarchy, which, in Thailand, as you know, is most definately the most serious accusation that can be possibly voiced.

Hmmm... and still no comment on the drugwar killings.

Sorry, but all evidence, supported by statistics and opinion polls, speaks for the simple fact that Thaksin's human rights violations are not exactly high on the barometer of the PAD . However you try to distort this with erratic argumentation - it is in plain view, and should lead to a re-evaluation of the protest movement, and their aims.

Only because they are the most vocal force presently against Thaksin, does not mean that they are any more 'democratic' than Thaksin, if you include the upholding of human rights as an essential part of democracy.

Edited June 12, 2006 by ColPyat

[ovenman]

On the other note, dealing with Canadian, USA, and UK winters can suck of you don’t have a good DVD collection.

Not to worry, even if Mr. Big doesn't already have an extensive DVD collection, he's pretty flush and can build up a library fairly fast. He doesn't even need to buy the disks at Panthip Plaza and the like.

[hammered]

abetting?

you mean not speaking out against a guy that you claim is horribly vindictive? sorry that's a no go argument ...

But now, after the Shincorp sale, they appearantly are not overtly intimidated by Thaksin, and not only speak out, but insult him and his family. They even accuse him of overthrowing the monarchy, which, in Thailand, as you know, is most definately the most serious accusation that can be possibly voiced.

Hmmm... and still no comment on the drugwar killings.

Sorry, but all evidence, supported by statistics and opinion polls, speaks for the simple fact that Thaksin's human rights violations are not exactly high on the barometer of the PAD as well. However you try to distort this with erratic argumentation - it is in plain view, and should lead to a re-evaluation of the protest movement, and their aims.

Only because they are the most vocal force presently against Thaksin, does not mean that they are any more 'democratic' than Thaksin, if you include the upholding of human rights as an essential part of democracy.

Well I guess you try to deal with he who ordered all the stuff before you worry about those beneath. Those not connected to it but who may be apologists or excusists come a long way down the list if they are ever dealt with. I would have felt you would be happy if Thaksin is removed if you feel so strongly about those drugwar killings even if he ends up removed for something else. After all it wouldnt be the first time peopkle pay in a roundabout way. For example, Al Capone never went down for murder but died in Jail.

[ColPyat]

I would have felt you would be happy if Thaksin is removed if you feel so strongly about those drugwar killings

I feel very strongly about the drugwar killings.

But - i cannot allow to let my judgement be clouded by personal feelings and notions of revenge, when applying it to political analyses. Thaksin cannot be removed at any cost, especially at the cost of democratic development. The cost of what happened in the last few months is already far too high, even outweighting the harm that Thaksin has done. Additionally, one has to be careful with whom to go into the same bed, and some of the PAD people are not people i would like to be associated with in any form.

And, Thaksin so far is not removed, but Thailand's economy has suffered as a result of the mess incredibly. Thailand's population is polarised, entrenched in bitter feuding camps. And no end in sight.

If Thaksin is 'removed' this way - it will be a Phyrrus victory.

[ando]

Well I guess you try to deal with he who ordered all the stuff before you worry about those beneath. Those not connected to it but who may be apologists or excusists come a long way down the list if they are ever dealt with. I would have felt you would be happy if Thaksin is removed if you feel so strongly about those drugwar killings even if he ends up removed for something else. After all it wouldnt be the first time peopkle pay in a roundabout way. For example, Al Capone never went down for murder but died in Jail.

I think the debate/discussion here has two groups focused on different aspects of the same problem. Not unlike the Thai public I would imagine.

One group is fixated on ridding the world of Thaksin, blind justice and retrebution. The other group is more concerned at how it is being done and what might come after if this mini revolution succeeds.

A question here now for the anti-Thaksin crowd. Do you guys expect life for the people of Thailand will be better or worse off if Thaksin and TRT are forced out of the political picture?

I expect any replies will be heavily qualified with such things as -- provided the constitution is amended, etc...

[John K]

I would have felt you would be happy if Thaksin is removed if you feel so strongly about those drugwar killings

I feel very strongly about the drugwar killings.

But - i cannot allow to let my judgement be clouded by personal feelings and notions of revenge, when applying it to political analyses. Thaksin cannot be removed at any cost, especially at the cost of democratic development. The cost of what happened in the last few months is already far too high, even outweighting the harm that Thaksin has done. Additionally, one has to be careful with whom to go into the same bed, and some of the PAD people are not people i would like to be associated with in any form.

And, Thaksin so far is not removed, but Thailand's economy has suffered as a result of the mess incredibly. Thailand's population is polarised, entrenched in bitter feuding camps. And no end in sight.

If Thaksin is 'removed' this way - it will be a Phyrrus victory.

Don’t be deceived by him. I see by your comment you are falling to his suggestion that he is the only answer. Trust me when I say I am an expert at spotting hidden suggestions.

He is not the only person who can fix Thailand’s problems. He appears only that way because the people he surrounds himself with many people (cronies) that are not qualified for the office they hold.

Finding qualified people to run the country may be just getting as simple as getting a professor from a good university and placing qualified people in office to support him.

George Bush is an idiot surrounded by qualified educated people. His popularity drops when he does not listen to their expert opinion and allows personal beliefs and religion to dictate his decisions.

Don’t be deceived by Thaksin.

[ColPyat]

A question here now for the anti-Thaksin crowd. Do you guys expect life for the people of Thailand will be better or worse off if Thaksin and TRT are forced out of the political picture?

Given the available alternatives - it won't make any difference.

And given the political and social mess we are in now - i fear that life will be far worse for a considerable time, regardless of Thaksin being removed or not.

[Donnyboy]

That opinion will never change. Lets face it, they see us as ugly stingy millionaires. Give us your money Flang and when its finished, go away.

Most Thais I have meet and the ones I know quite well dont talk like that at all, perhaps Im not hanging around the bar scene as much as you.

I dont mind the duel pricing as long as its within a acceptable level, 5 baht thai/ 10 baht farang for a bus fare isnt too bad to me.

[John K]

A question here now for the anti-Thaksin crowd. Do you guys expect life for the people of Thailand will be better or worse off if Thaksin and TRT are forced out of the political picture?

Given the available alternatives - it won't make any difference.

And given the political and social mess we are in now - i fear that life will be far worse for a considerable time, regardless of Thaksin being removed or not.

I think it will be like a blowout. There will be some down time on the side of the road while the tire is being changed. But sooner or later we will be on the road again. Hopefully driving more to the center of the road to avoid the debris that caused the first blowout.

[hammered]

Well I guess you try to deal with he who ordered all the stuff before you worry about those beneath. Those not connected to it but who may be apologists or excusists come a long way down the list if they are ever dealt with. I would have felt you would be happy if Thaksin is removed if you feel so strongly about those drugwar killings even if he ends up removed for something else. After all it wouldnt be the first time peopkle pay in a roundabout way. For example, Al Capone never went down for murder but died in Jail.

I think the debate/discussion here has two groups focused on different aspects of the same problem. Not unlike the Thai public I would imagine.

One group is fixated on ridding the world of Thaksin, blind justice and retrebution. The other group is more concerned at how it is being done and what might come after if this mini revolution succeeds.

A question here now for the anti-Thaksin crowd. Do you guys expect life for the people of Thailand will be better or worse off if Thaksin and TRT are forced out of the political picture?

I expect any replies will be heavily qualified with such things as -- provided the constitution is amended, etc...

I think Ive posted elsewhere that some kind of compromise is more likely to be the Thai way of resolving the issue. A compromise with no obvious winners or obvious losers. It would probably be better for Thailand if some reconciliation were possible as the country is so heavily divided on this issue. The trouble is what kind of compromise could work? I really cannot see a winner takes all scenario unfolding and I think the people of Thailand would be better off with a carefully worked out compromise.

[jdinasia]

Well I guess you try to deal with he who ordered all the stuff before you worry about those beneath. Those not connected to it but who may be apologists or excusists come a long way down the list if they are ever dealt with. I would have felt you would be happy if Thaksin is removed if you feel so strongly about those drugwar killings even if he ends up removed for something else. After all it wouldnt be the first time peopkle pay in a roundabout way. For example, Al Capone never went down for murder but died in Jail.

I think the debate/discussion here has two groups focused on different aspects of the same problem. Not unlike the Thai public I would imagine.

One group is fixated on ridding the world of Thaksin, blind justice and retrebution. The other group is more concerned at how it is being done and what might come after if this mini revolution succeeds.

A question here now for the anti-Thaksin crowd. Do you guys expect life for the people of Thailand will be better or worse off if Thaksin and TRT are forced out of the political picture?

I expect any replies will be heavily qualified with such things as -- provided the constitution is amended, etc...

ALL sides have agreed to the constitution needing work ...

But ...

What I see happening is simply the only thing that CAN happpen. Thaksin and the head of TRT are banned ... the rest of the party dissolved ...

This leading to new political parties and a coalition government that relies on the people from ALL parts of Thailand to work.

Better or worse? Long run MUCH better ... when the big boys on all sides realize they can no longer get away with subverting Democracy on any level ... be it vote buying etc ...

Short term? less growth .. slower movement on projects etc ... Thaksin may be erratic but he does get things done ... sadly mostly it seems to help the folks that don't need it.

[John K]

There are too many variables in the equation. The bird flu for one looks like it may have become human to human in Indonesia. That will have a major effect on Thailand politics aside. One thing seems apparent, if the government is purged (hence the reset button) it will take some time for corruption to build up again. Hopefully in that time the anti corruption laws that Thaksin ripped down can be reinstated. Perhaps in just one bill. Then from there growth can start again. There are enough projects like the expanded transit system that will provide some growth as new projects are started. Hopefully some in Isaan too. Perhaps a hub factory.

[Plus]

This is not Democrats vs. TRT battle or pro-Thaksin vs. anti-Thaksin groups - it's crooks against the law. TRT will or will not be dissolved not because Democrats want it - it's because TRT broke the laws. People have taken to the streets not because they had personal reasons but because they saw country's laws trampled upon.

The real winner must be the law, the constition, the country as a whole. Benfits to the "winning" party are secondary.

If next year Democrats start stealing shitloads of money, people will protest against them, as simple as that.

Colpyat, you blame Chamlong not for what he did or said, but what he didn't say, in public, to satisfy you personally, then you blame PAD for THAKSIN's decision to dissolve the parliament instead of resinging outright and subsequent botched elections. You are again on your old anti PAD trip - Thaksin, TRT, EC are of no interest to you and so you are just wasting people's time, again.

Yes, Sondhi is not a democracy torch bearer, and neither is Chamlong, really - never has been, never claimed to be. PAD's goal, in case you forgot, is/was to remove Thaksin, not to establish true democracy, whatever it means. It's not a political movement, you judge them for what they have never taken on themselves.

[jdinasia]

Plus ... a point we have ALL been trying to make for ages ... it just doesn't fit some people's agenda to accept that it is right ...

even the guys screeming that the PAD's actions trying to pressure Thaksin to resign as undemocratic (they were fully democratic peaceful rallies where people exercised their rights of peaceful protest and attempted to educate others as to what was happening ... hel_l the rallies were not even civil disobedience since public safety laws weren't broken)

This is about Thaksin ... not about the PAD ... not about 2 of the PAD leaders that are not out to replace Thaksin as the next PM etc etc ....

[ColPyat]

The real winner must be the law, the constition, the country as a whole.

And the country has already lost badly. And i am certain that in the days to come it will even lose more.

[Martin]

It is possible that we are at the (as usual sluggish and hard to pinpoint exactly) turning of the tide in Thai governmental-power politics.

One way and another, there are a huge number of people who have taken part in this campaigning, and there is still a General Election campaign to come.

I doubt if, in forty years time, there will be a lot of kids asking "What did you do in 2006, Grandad?",

but there will be a lot more who have memories of taking part in political development in their country in 2006 than there were who had memories of taking part in 'making history' in 1932.

And 1932 is where this all comes from.

It is no good introducing the system of representative democracy if there is no learning by the voters of what they are voting for.

Thaksin was very shrewd in working out just what he had to do to get electoral victory in the light of a politically-naive and basically-unconcerned electorate up-country. But he has come well unstuck.

His fall may be messy. But I doubt if anything similar in the way of running the law-making system to one's own benefit will ever be allowed to happen again. Time will tell.

Meanwhile, the rice is getting planted just the same.

[ando]

But there is no future in planting rice! The North needs development to explore more financially productive products.

It may be a major export for Thailand at the moment, but rice production is basically a waste of human resources for the country. I am sure the wealthy elite would like to see the inequities continue as it provides a flow of cheap labour for such things as servants and brothel workers.

Leaving the North alone, same same as before may preserve a quaint way of life that was more suited to the last century, but it wont help the country to prosper as a whole. It is actually in the city folks best interest long term to help the north develop. Thaksin may be corrupt but at least he was doing something to stimulate the north and help them move out of living standards way behind city dwellers.

[chownah]

But there is no future in planting rice! The North needs development to explore more financially productive products.

It may be a major export for Thailand at the moment, but rice production is basically a waste of human resources for the country. I am sure the wealthy elite would like to see the inequities continue as it provides a flow of cheap labour for such things as servants and brothel workers.

Leaving the North alone, same same as before may preserve a quaint way of life that was more suited to the last century, but it wont help the country to prosper as a whole. It is actually in the city folks best interest long term to help the north develop. Thaksin may be corrupt but at least he was doing something to stimulate the north and help them move out of living standards way behind city dwellers.

This is a very important issue. What steps are taken to help alleviate the poverty in rural Thailand could be the end of Thai culture as we know it if handled poorly. H.M. The King is promoting self sufficiency (among other things) to help in this endeavor. I think that self sufficiency is one of the best prospects for helping to improve the standard of living and at the same time to preserve the culture. In the last few weeks the gov't has distributed seedlings for mai pradoo and mai cah. These trees produce valuable wood used in fine wood working and these trees will be quite valuable when they mature....which admittedly does take a long time. These trees have always been valued in the local culture so helping to re-establish them will help to rekindle the native culture...also it will create cash for rural people in the future....and perhaps an often overlooked but critical aspect of this is that it will help to encourage people to have a better appreciation for long term planning and goal setting rather than the "make a buck today and forget the future" which is prevelant in modern agriculture and silvaculture.........also it might actually help to make rural living more economically viable into the 21st century.

Chownah

[lukamar]

What steps are taken to help alleviate the poverty in rural Thailand could be the end of Thai culture as we know it if handled poorly.

Why should the poor impoverished rural farmer have to shoulder the cost of preserving Thai culture? Why not the urban middle class or another group that could handle that cost with less strain? I hope you will think about the poor rural folk next time you unlock your door and enter your home knowing that you live better than 90% of rural Thailand, who should preserve the Thai culture by remaining poor.

Planting trees is a wonderful idea and one that should be practiced but the truth is that illegal logging is stripping the forest areas of Northern Thailand at an alarming rate. The majority of the illegal loggers are from poor rural communities trying to earn a living. I'm sure they won't mind waiting until the baby is out of High School to cut that tree so they can finally put food on the table.

.

[John K]

Plus;

You are dead on the bulls eye with post #500. It’s the casual disregard of the law at all levels for personal gain that has apparently lead to this. The street cop pulling over cars for no reason except to line his pockets, or the PM paying impotent political parties to meet the election requirement. It’s all the same.

In the states few people obey the speed limit, but that is not for personal gain. That is to help compensate for the rush rush hurry up society that the USA has become. Wanting to have some down time at home before going out the door again back into the rat race is the most common motivation to speed.

Ando;

you are right too, but there are options for Isaan. The world oil supply will fall below demand in the next 5 years. That’s not what the can harvest, simply the crop will be drying up. Alternate sources of energy such as solar electric farms, resorts, and a few other things are all feasible in the short term. The tree planting project is a good thought but on small scale. The money the country could save on energy with the solar electric farms could be reinvested into Isaan. Once the money is available, the local governments along with parliament can best decide what to do.

Yes Isaan living is not the same as the rest of the world. But there they don’t need to deal with rushing around like in the states. It is also not our place to decide what to do with Isaan.

To embrace culture and preserve it, or let it evolve is a choice only the Thais can make. That decision must come in the form of collective wisdom in a fair and honest vote, village meetings and other such democratic methods.

The TRT has attempted to remove that process along with several other things that remove the people from deciding their own future. That is what the educated people are seeing. The ones that are not educated see only the short term gain of some money in their hand. Simply because their life is day to day and not year to year.

If it rains today we can plant tomorrow. If it does not rain today we will find something else to do. Simply the unsophisticated logic of nature taken day to day. No need to worry about the stock market and trends, no need to worry about anything that is not in eyesight.

The economy in Isaan is remarkable stable, in fact it is the most stable in the world. Isaan is built on the food industry. The food industry will survive even a nuclear war simply because the survivors must eat. Everything else will fail.

The path of Thailand will be decided in the next few weeks. If everyone in the TRT gets burned guilty or not then it will serve as an example to others. If a few are untouched, it sends the message that it’s OK if you don’t get caught. That message is deeply engraved in Thai society now and is very possibly the root of the problem.

Lets see what courage the courts have.

[ColPyat]

Yes Isaan living is not the same as the rest of the world. But there they don’t need to deal with rushing around like in the states. It is also not our place to decide what to do with Isaan.

If it rains today we can plant tomorrow. If it does not rain today we will find something else to do. Simply the unsophisticated logic of nature taken day to day. No need to worry about the stock market and trends, no need to worry about anything that is not in eyesight.

The economy in Isaan is remarkable stable, in fact it is the most stable in the world. Isaan is built on the food industry. The food industry will survive even a nuclear war simply because the survivors must eat. Everything else will fail.

I believe i have pointed this out to you already, but you have a very mistaken idea about upcountry Thailand. Therefore you completely misunderstand and misjudge present political situation.

Isaarn and the North is everything else than a stable economy. People are debt ridden, working in a, for them, mosty unprofitable agriculture. The amount of small scale farmers and landless farm labourers is rising, most of the land is owned by city people. The only way vast parts of the poplation can sustain themselves there is by family members migrating to the cities, working in often despicable conditions 16 to 20 hours a day in order to make enough money. More and more villages move into the profitable business of prostitution.

The already mentioned "sittakit por pueang", a Royally sponsored selfsufficient farming method, is theoretically a viable method in attempting to repair the damage that has been done over the last decades. It has the potential to help the poorest of the poor. The problems though are that there is no political will to introduce this systhem on a large and more than symbolic scale as it would take vast profits away from the rice mills and the exporters. I know that it works on many levels, as we do this on our farm.

Neverthess, it is highly idealistic, and unrealistic, that this will ever work on a large, nationwide scale. People do not want to remain on their farms, if they have the option - they want the modern luxuries that only money can buy.

On village grassroots level Thaksin has actually strengthened basic democratic institutions, as opposed to the national level where indeed he has weakened and undermined democracy. He has woken up a previously apathetic and complacent village population with his populistic programs. This does not mean that his populistic programs, such as large scale agroschemes and easy loans, will not have catastrophic results a few years down the line. Which i am convinced that they will.

From an educated city viewpoint it sounds all logical to talk about things like *the law*, and *corruption*, you and many other singleminded posters here completely neglect the fact that the vast majority of the population has only the most basic education and often not even this. There, it is already a huge step forward that their vote actually counts, that they are part of the democratic process, as faulty as it is.

The demonstrations are to a large part city based people, who talk from a city viewpoint. And as such are they viewed by Thaksin's powerhouse in the impoverished regions of the North and Isaarn. If Thaksin is removed now but what this impoverished majority views as rich people taking away the first PM who has spend attention to the villages, then the emerging democracy of Thailand will most likely be more damaged than by a continued rule of Thaksin. Because the most basic democratic process is taken away - the power of the vote of the majority of the people.

The recent demonstrations have already added to this vast gap between richand poor, between city and countryside, and have polarised to population tremendously.

Your next miscalculation is viewing Thaksin somehow as the root of all evil, as the center of corruption. Corruption is embedded in Thailand on all levels of society, and Thaksin is only a product of this condition. Admittedly, he has intrduced completely new forms of corruption, nevertheless, corruption will not disappear, or even be significantly reduced with the demise of Thaksin.

Only slow and steady social development will do this. And to ensure this slow and steady development the whole population has to be allowed to take part in this process, and has to be allowed to make mistakes, such as electing Thaksin, and learn from those mistakes.

It is only counterproductive when the sort of educated classes take this right away from the lesser educated ones.

Please get rid of the romantic notion of the happy Land of Smile, the beauty of the Thai villages. This is only a product of a clever marketing campaign that has nothing whatsoever in common with a far more dire reality.

You might find yourself in for a rude awakening very soon if those demonstrations are not stopped before they start again, and faulty as it is, the basic democratic process of voting for a party people want is hindered by following the letter of the law without regard to complex realities. Thailand is still basically a feudal society to a large extend, in the process of change, and highly instable, regardless what the spectacle of unity of the present celebrations seem to suggest to the outside world, and the romantically challenged inside.

[John K]

I think both you and I have differing view point because of our different geographical locations. I see what you are saying and if I missed the post forgive me but this thread is getting up there in length. Over 500 post in 23 days is a lot.

I think you have to agree that corruption has skimmed money meant for Isaan over they years. That money could easily be used to subsidize rice thus helping the farmers out of debt.

You mention prostitution as a source of cash flow. If you ask bar managers and mama sans at the go-go bars they will tell you that the negative effects of corruption on the poor is why many girls from Isaan head for the bars. What money should be flowing down to the families is being diverted into the pockets of people who least need the money.

Yes it is a complex and difficult situation so say the least, but between both of us we are in fact saying the people of Isaan are Pawns in a game of chess. The educated people in Bangkok are more like Knights, Rooks, and Bishops. The King and Queen are as they are. This team is fighting for the good of Thailand and it’s people. The other team is the corruption team. You can decide for yourself who is what on the board and what side is white and what side is black. Based on several dozen news stories it is clear to see that every move is countered. It would appear the possibility of a checkmate is near. When that happens the game is reset and starts over.

As the situation seems to be dire, drastic and decisive action must be taken. I added the post #64 below in the thread “TRT targeted for dissolution.” Read the post above it and I think you will see what must be done.

If everyone gets burned from the top down, it will encourage self policing of the next group. That will in turn encourage responsible voting thus minimizing the need for similar future action.

Is it drastic, perhaps. Is it effective, absolutely.

The people who should get burned are the people in elected TRT offices. When the new government is seated they will remove who they must from the appointed offices.

Think about it for a moment and you will understand how it works. If your job and source of income depended on someone else following the law, would you not do everything in your power to see they stay straight? Policing from the inside is easier than from the outside. All this does is give the added incentive.

Corruption is like cancer. You can’t expect to go into surgery and have the surgeon remove some hoping the rest will go away on it’s own. You need to remove as much as you can without killing the host in the process. Simply there is no other answer.

[jdinasia]

Yes Isaan living is not the same as the rest of the world. But there they don’t need to deal with rushing around like in the states. It is also not our place to decide what to do with Isaan.

If it rains today we can plant tomorrow. If it does not rain today we will find something else to do. Simply the unsophisticated logic of nature taken day to day. No need to worry about the stock market and trends, no need to worry about anything that is not in eyesight.

The economy in Isaan is remarkable stable, in fact it is the most stable in the world. Isaan is built on the food industry. The food industry will survive even a nuclear war simply because the survivors must eat. Everything else will fail.

I believe i have pointed this out to you already, but you have a very mistaken idea about upcountry Thailand. Therefore you completely misunderstand and misjudge present political situation. ((Yes ... anyone that sees things differently than ColPyat is just wrong!))

Isaarn and the North is everything else than a stable economy. People are debt ridden, working in a, for them, mosty unprofitable agriculture. The amount of small scale farmers and landless farm labourers is rising, most of the land is owned by city people. The only way vast parts of the poplation can sustain themselves there is by family members migrating to the cities, working in often despicable conditions 16 to 20 hours a day in order to make enough money. More and more villages move into the profitable business of prostitution. ((Directly contradicting gov't statistics AND common knowledge .. when all claims say that the 3's involved in prostitution are stagnant or diminishing))

The already mentioned "sittakit por pueang", a Royally sponsored selfsufficient farming method, is theoretically a viable method in attempting to repair the damage that has been done over the last decades. It has the potential to help the poorest of the poor. The problems though are that there is no political will to introduce this systhem on a large and more than symbolic scale as it would take vast profits away from the rice mills and the exporters. I know that it works on many levels, as we do this on our farm.((From the machete wielding gun toting industrial estates of Samut Prakarn to running his farm in Isaan??))

Neverthess, it is highly idealistic, and unrealistic, that this will ever work on a large, nationwide scale. People do not want to remain on their farms, if they have the option - they want the modern luxuries that only money can buy.

On village grassroots level Thaksin has actually strengthened basic democratic institutions, as opposed to the national level where indeed he has weakened and undermined democracy. He has woken up a previously apathetic and complacent village population with his populistic programs. This does not mean that his populistic programs, such as large scale agroschemes and easy loans, will not have catastrophic results a few years down the line. Which i am convinced that they will.((Completely inaccurate! ... TRT has strengthened the political machines in rural areas .. strengthening both the kanman system AND patronage ... ColPyat in other posts tells how even education scholarships have been corrupted))

From an educated city viewpoint it sounds all logical to talk about things like *the law*, and *corruption*, you and many other singleminded posters here completely neglect the fact that the vast majority of the population has only the most basic education and often not even this. There, it is already a huge step forward that their vote actually counts, that they are part of the democratic process, as faulty as it is. ((Yes! ignore the rule of law ... ignore the corruption ... ignore everything! Just let ColPyat have his way! <<which of course seems to mean keeping Dr.T and TRT>>))

The demonstrations are to a large part city based people, who talk from a city viewpoint. And as such are they viewed by Thaksin's powerhouse in the impoverished regions of the North and Isaarn. If Thaksin is removed now but what this impoverished majority views as rich people taking away the first PM who has spend attention to the villages, then the emerging democracy of Thailand will most likely be more damaged than by a continued rule of Thaksin. Because the most basic democratic process is taken away - the power of the vote of the majority of the people. ((Again ... TONS of people including the Santi Asoke people are NOT rich ... though Dr T certainly is! Ignore that ColPyat's version of emerging democracy is about bought votes .. political serfdom in the poorest areas and the rest of the insanity!! not to mention that paying off poliitical parties if/when TRT is found guilty is a TOTAL subversion of democracy))

The recent demonstrations have already added to this vast gap between richand poor, between city and countryside, and have polarised to population tremendously. <<yes there is some polarization ... yet it will be FAR less if the courts are allowed to straighten the problem out as HM directed!>>

Your next miscalculation is viewing Thaksin somehow as the root of all evil, as the center of corruption. Corruption is embedded in Thailand on all levels of society, and Thaksin is only a product of this condition. Admittedly, he has intrduced completely new forms of corruption, nevertheless, corruption will not disappear, or even be significantly reduced with the demise of Thaksin. <<Start with the worst offender against real democracy and corruption and work down!! A great start for Thailand that normally works from the bottom and rarely ever gets the folks in power!>>

Only slow and steady social development will do this. And to ensure this slow and steady development the whole population has to be allowed to take part in this process, and has to be allowed to make mistakes, such as electing Thaksin, and learn from those mistakes.

It is only counterproductive when the sort of educated classes take this right away from the lesser educated ones.<<The process of learning from these mistakes is apparent when someone that has subverted Democracy is found guilty of it and forced out of politics>>

Please get rid of the romantic notion of the happy Land of Smile, the beauty of the Thai villages. This is only a product of a clever marketing campaign that has nothing whatsoever in common with a far more dire reality.

You might find yourself in for a rude awakening very soon if those demonstrations are not stopped before they start again, and faulty as it is, the basic democratic process of voting for a party people want is hindered by following the letter of the law without regard to complex realities. Thailand is still basically a feudal society to a large extend, in the process of change, and highly instable, regardless what the spectacle of unity of the present celebrations seem to suggest to the outside world, and the romantically challenged inside. << So Thailand in Isaan is NOT what ColPyat claims earlier ... a hotbed of grassroots democracy ... rather it is a Feudal society? ... this post like many is filled with no internal logic .. it is just a same ole same ole attempt to scare people and convince people of doom and gloom if democracy were to take a step forward and deal with the political machines that control voting here>>

my commentary in GREEN