12 inch vs 14 inch tires/wheels

[indothai]

Hi,

I'm shopping for a new bike and was wondering if anyone knows the pro's and con's of 12 inch vs 14 inch tires/wheels.

Any advice, opinions, comments greatly appreciated.

[bazmlb]

The bigger the wheels the better, i went from 16 to 14 when i got the click, you really notice the difference

[indothai]

bazmlb, thanks for the quick response! I'm assuming bigger in width. What were the differences?

I'm eyeing the Fino, Filano, Scoopy-i, Zoomer X.

[bazmlb]

The 16's were wider as well, extra wide over standard, the click tram tracks badly where the 16's wouldnt, any white line, cat eye, expansion gap the click follows/deviates it must look the the rider is drunk from behind. I am going to see if wider rims can go on the click to reduce the problem.

from memory the zoomer has wide tyres and the problem would be less

[VocalNeal]

Well Scoopy Club and Zoomer have 12" but for comparison Vespa small frame LX has 10" Ok it has different front suspension but...People ride Vespas in Bangkok and Pattaya etc. and go riding up country on the weekends. Bigger Vespas ie. large frame have 12"

Scoopy Club and Zoomer have 100mm wide tires regular Scoopy has 80mm so if you like the 12" one are more like the Vespa

Mostly it's about style and to an extent manoeuvring in traffic.

In practical terms there is really no difference. There is a very slight advantage to larger wheels as the angle of attack if you hit a pothole is slightly less but I mean very slightly. On the other hand if you hit a pothole with 100mm tires you have an advantage because the deeper tire will absorb more of the shock.

Buy which ever one you like. None of your choices really have enough speed for the wheel size to make any considerable difference.

If you absolutely need a tie breaker. 12" Urban, 14" Rural.

Edited January 24, 2014 by VocalNeal

[bazmlb]

One thing i also have noticed with the click, when it gets a puncture they have a lot of trouble getting the tyre off to change the tube as opposed to larger 16", on the wider rims like 100mm it may not be as much of an issue, but at the end of the day i would try to take each for a ride and see which you like the best.

[TT2600]

The bigger the wheels the better, i went from 16 to 14 when i got the click, you really notice the difference

The greater the diameter the more stable. Road international standard is

now 17”, and its for good reason. Dirt bikes often run 18” rear and 21"

front for same reason.

A Dream or a Wave may look crusty but they are actually a far better, far more stable

bike than any Scoopy, Click or twist and go whatever.

Its not just their little wheels on twist and go bikes, its the weight distribution. All the

weight is on the back, not much weight on front. Plus the wheel, trans, and motor

are all suspended in one. Try putting 4 bricks in your hand and move your arm up

and down. Thats called a stupid amount of unsprung weight.

Thats why a Dream/Wave bike is better, as it has motor in middle and only the wheels

are suspended.

Now to width. The wider the tyre, the heavier the steering. Too narrow and its

twitchy, too wide and it will steer like a bus. Many bikes sold in Thailand are

over tyred, meaning too wide. Its all for looks. Often owners put even wider ones

on them. All they do is go slower and use more fuel, as the motor has to work

harder to accelerate the bike and rotate the wheels.

Twist and go Scoopies, Clicks also use more fuel than a Dream or Wave because

of the basic single speed auto transmission which is just a torque converter.

I am 54 and been riding 42 years. I have a racing licence, and used to teach

examine riders applying for a licence. Every experienced rider I know anywhere

in the world will tell you the same as I have said above.

If you think I am wrong. Try this....Get a Scoopy / Click and a Wave/Dream type

bike and ride them both on a bumpy windy road at the same speed on or off

the road. Now realise which is better and why.

This is all called primary safety. The ability of the vehicle to remain safe and

stable. After you do this you will realise that all the makers of twist and go bikes

should be ashamed, as they know what they were building 20 years ago,

(and still make in smaller numbers) are far safer bikes on any road.

[jackcorbett]

It looks like it's time for me to do another motorbike video and put it on you tube. My mission will be to test a Honda Scoopy against my girlfriend's Yamaha Filano over a few speed bumps. I wrote a review on the Filano, another on the Honda Click, and still another on the Yamaha Nouvo SX, Elegance, etc, and there's a lot of good info here on this forum. I suppose it's time to paint an unforgettable picture that will clearly show the difference.

[VocalNeal]

^^

Every experienced rider I know anywhere

in the world will tell you the same as I have said above.

Not been on many scooter forums lately then?

From memory the largest in a scooter is about 16, many have 14 or even 13. Yes i know Wave has 17 but is it a scooter or a small motorcycle?

BMW scooter BTW have 15 inch wheels. Honda Silverwing 600 14 front , 13 rear. Both these manufactures make motorcycles with 17" wheels. But on scooters they use smaller. They must know something I don't.

As I said Vespa still after all these years use 10 and 12' but yes the company does make scooters with bigger wheels.

It's all about different horses for different courses.

[jackcorbett]

TT2600---You are overgeneralizing. First off, Yamaha Nouvos and Suziki Hayates use 16 inch wheels. Although it is true that a Honda Wave uses a 17 inch wheel, most Waves come with skinny little tires. There is a reason why very few Waves and their ilk will even begin to keep up with my Nouvo Elegance with its one size larger than stock tires. You have made a point about the perfect 50/50 weight distribution of a Honda Wave due to its central placement of the engine. But a Yamaha Nouvo Elegance or SX has an engine position that's not that far off from center. A Porsche 911 has its engine in the rear but by the time the engineers finally got done with this car its rear end bias has been compensated for by engineering advances through the years. A Mazda Miata has a perfect 50 50 weight distribution and its a terrific handling car, but the much more expensive Porsche 911 will still out handle it to some extent. In other words things are not so simple as you suggest. My Nouvo Elegance in the real world will absolutely trounce nearly every Wave out there.

You have also made some rather nonsensical claims re fuel economy of a Wave vs a twist and go. One of our fellow condo owners here has a 110 c.c. Honda automatic. This is the model that uses a chain final drive. He gets 50 to 55 kpl in CITY DRIVING. Bikes such as the Honda PCX 150, a Yamaha 125 SX and many others will get over 50 kpl once they get out on the road. I have the figures to prove this on a number of bikes, going from Pattaya to Rayong for example. We are talking about 125 miles to the gallon territory here. That's hardly the kind of thirsty fuel consumption you want to dump on all twist and go bikes. And although you have not touched on it, there is the maintenance issues. With a good Nouvo Elegance or something similar you typically don't even touch the transmission or drive belt until you reach 30,000 kilometers or so. How many drive chains will you be replacing, tightening or oiling by that time?

You have raised some interesting points re tire width however. Certainly all other things equaled a 16 inch wheel is going to give you more straight forward stability than smaller diameter tires. There is a mathematical formula for this that considers the radius or diameter of the wheel, and the value of Pi....3.14 but there are also other variables in the formula that encompass weight and width I seem to recall. But that's where I start to get confused. My last big bike was a BMW K 100 RS and it had rather skinny tires compared to even 650's today. But that bike was dead stable all the way up to its top speed of over 220 kph and hardly felt as if it was moving until one took it up to up to around 130 kph.

[TT2600]

It looks like it's time for me to do another motorbike video and put it on you tube. My mission will be to test a Honda Scoopy against my girlfriend's Yamaha Filano over a few speed bumps. I wrote a review on the Filano, another on the Honda Click, and still another on the Yamaha Nouvo SX, Elegance, etc, and there's a lot of good info here on this forum. I suppose it's time to paint an unforgettable picture that will clearly show the difference.

A comparison of Scooters on video. Sounds great...Why not make it a REAL comparo. (Top Gear eat your heart out).

A REAL comparo...And here I throw down the gauntlet...

How about you include a Wave or Dream with the Scoopy, Filano and Nuevo, not just over a few speed bumps in a car park. Thats a bit lame. Instead, a real road test comparison. Do it on smooth windy roads, bumpy roads and bumpy curvy roads, maybe even an MX track to accentuate how the massive unsprung weight of the Scoopy and Filano and Nuevo rear ends get wildly out of control when pushed hard. Because it will. I’d be happy to provide my Wave 125 and / or my Dream for the comparison.

In racing there is an old saying...When the flag drops, the bull$%^& stops. I say that smiling. I’d really like to do this, and if you are going to do this you may as well do it properly.

[TT2600]

^^

Every experienced rider I know anywhere

in the world will tell you the same as I have said above.

Not been on many scooter forums lately then?

From memory the largest in a scooter is about 16, many have 14 or even 13. Yes i know Wave has 17 but is it a scooter or a small motorcycle?

BMW scooter BTW have 15 inch wheels. Honda Silverwing 600 14 front , 13 rear. Both these manufactures make motorcycles with 17" wheels. But on scooters they use smaller. They must know something I don't.

As I said Vespa still after all these years use 10 and 12' but yes the company does make scooters with bigger wheels.

It's all about different horses for different courses.

I come from the motorcycle industry. Manufacturers make scooters and motorcycles styled often to follow fashion. Lets face it, the Scoopy etc is a neo-retro rendition of a Vespa. The Vespa has always been cool, and thats what Honda emulated. The Click was a futuristic version of same. All the others of this ilk are following similar paths.

Let me put all this in really simple terms and accentuate what we are talking about. Try riding a bicycle with 16” wheels down a steep hill with plenty of bumps and a few curves. Then try it on a 27” bike. Try it and you will really get the picture.

'They must know something I don’t’ Its called marketing to a group of people who want what they buy, to look like they expect. In this case the group of people want it to look like a scooter. That means smaller wheels.

Ask yourself. If little wheels are so great, Motard, WSB all run 17” as their smallest wheel size. MotoGP is generally 17” and MX is generally about 18” with a larger front wheel often 21”. This is national and global racing fact.

I’m talking primary safety here. The ability of the motorcycle’s engineering to avoid an accident. So, if Jack is willing, why don’t you bring your scooter along for the scooter comparo video? This will be fun.

[indothai]

Thanks all for the comments !!!

I picked up a Honda Scoopy i Club 12. The last last bike I rode was a 1997 CBR 900, it's definitely different. Very different.

The main reason why I wanted to get a scooter was because of the traffic, I live in downtown Bangkok and commuting 5km to work which takes about 1 hour was just too much. So took the plunge and decide to try scooters.

I did go with the 12 inch wheels instead of the 14 inch, honestly.... compared to the CBR 900, lost for words. The roads here in Bangkok just plain suck! Cracks, cat eyes, drain grates, etc.. roads here just utter crap!!!

That said.. thanks all for the comments.

My next thread, where to get some "hip" helmets to go with my new ride !

[brfsa2]

Wider will not necessarily use more fuel and go slower. it depends how much winder and air pressure.

all you have to do is have the correct air pressure all the time and not use a too wide tire.

Clicks are 14' I see a lot of kids changing it to wider and thiner.. looks like shit to me. must be very unstable.

For example, the Honda Click 110 from 2010 came with rear tire 80 and front 70 dunlop.

I changed both rear and front tires to 90 and 80, michelin brand (1600-1700 Baht the pair). HUGE difference, more stable on wet roads and specially with many holes, and cornering is definitely better.

even with traffic you can still have a bigger bike and get less tired. I find a CB500F much less tiring to ride on traffic than on a Click or Wave.

Edited January 24, 2014 by brfsa2

[TT2600]

I use the name TT2600 because I own one in my home country. Its a Ducati. Just do a Google Image search on it. Its a pure GP race bike from the 80s’. These bikes were the last 2V two cylinder motorcycles able to beat the Japanese 4 Cyl bikes at places like the TT. The TT is on a real road, not a race track. These bikes won 2 world championships, and to many who have ridden them are the one of the sweetest handling bikes ever built; really special like a Norton Manx. This bike was also the first Ducati to have a trellis frame or space frame, the tubular exterior frame around the motor that has becomes Ducati’s signature. I know about this because I’ve sold new Ducatis, fixed them, raced them, and built parts for them for a living for many years. So I know about handling, weight distribution, and what works. But lets get back to scooters....

I’ll pitch my 2007 Dream with 2P disc front end against your Nuevo anywhere anytime. Sure you will win a straight line drag, but like the TT2 Ducati the Dream will out handle your Nuevo over real world roads and distance, the more corners the better. I’m talking about roads like the mountain road next to Thap Phut, the 1148 in North Thailand, or the Mai Hong Song Loop. While we are at it, I’ll also happily pitch my Dream against your Nuevo on Phu Ta Jo Mountain. A 14km totally off road technical climb to the top of one of the tallest mountains in Phang Nga Province. The Dream is a better all round proposition.

While we are in Phang Nga I’ll introduce you to a few men who own scooter hire shops who rent bikes like yours, and scoopies etc, but in their own time far prefer the Dream or Wave for its stability and safety. They hire out what the market wants, and thats twist and go...Thats business.

I did NOT say that 'perfect 50/50 weight distribution' of a Honda Wave. I did say its engine is in the middle. Sure a Porsche 911 is a great car, but talk to those who race them. Because they have more weight in the rear, when cornered hard they reach a point some call the snapping point. Thats when the rear gets so out of control to the point where the car cannot be saved, its weight imbalance makes it really difficult to bring back into control. I know this because a mate of mine races them in Targa races. But I really like Porches too!!

'My Nouvo Elegance in the real world will absolutely trounce nearly every Wave out there'. If you are talking straight line drag that is true. But I’m not talking about using your right hand, I’m talking about the whole rideability of the motorcycle.

Your words. 'You have also made some rather nonsensical claims re fuel economy of a Wave vs a twist and go'.

My fuel consumption concepts are based on what I have been told by 3 scooter hire shop owners I know personally. They are mates of mine who have 20-30 bikes each. Get real. These guys pay to fill all these bikes. They know. Ask yourself which uses more fuel. An Automatic or a Manual car or motorcycle...anything. In all these vehicles the engine has to fight a torque converter to get things moving. The more gears an auto has the better, thus we now have 4,5,6 and more gear auto cars out there on the market, all in search of fuel economy. Meanwhile, the twist and go has one gear. One lonely gear.

But the twist and go can produce more power than the crusty old 4 speeds. I know a Thai man with a race team of 4 bikes in 4 classes of Thai country bike races. His bikes and riders often win or finish in the top 3. I asked him which is faster. He said the twist and go motors can produce more power, and once moving can lead any 4 speed on a racetrack. The Twist and go engine design is after all, decades after the Dream motor. But thats on a smooth race track. Make it a real road with bumps, and the game changes. He knows that too.

Certainly all other things equaled a 16 inch wheel is going to give you more straight forward stability than smaller diameter tires. True.

Where does using radius to calculate the circumference of a circle come into this? What is your point?

I too owned a K100, great high speed tourer, but they run out of brakes at high speed with a light passenger and luggage. Yes they had skinny tyres. In reference to narrow tyres I used the word twitchy, I should have said they give ‘quicker' steering, which can also be provided by a steeper steering head angle. Thats the issue I have with the Nuevo really. To me its steering head angle is too steep, and like all twist and go’s, because its got all that unsprung weight of the transmission case, torque converter / belt drive etc going up and down with the back wheel, it lacks weight on the front. That plays havoc with braking as 70% of braking on a motorcycle is in the front. Its also not a great situation on wet roads, or roads with dust or gravel on them. Thats what I mean about primary safety.

But in the end, you like your Nuevo, and good luck to you. Just remember theres a guy in Phuket who’d like to do the real world comparo, if you want to find out how good your Nuevo really is.

[VocalNeal]

But the twist and go can produce more power than the crusty old 4 speeds.

Very interesting

With the greatest respect the reason the CVT is superior is because of the transmission not how much power the engine develops. I would suggest that the Scoopy 110i produces the same or less than the Wave 110i as an example yet the Scoopy will walk all over the Wave say on a kart track because the transmission is superior not because the engine produces more power.

Top speed would be a factor of overall gearing and aerodynamics.

indothai, on 24 Jan 2014 - 20:45, said:

I picked up a Honda Scoopy i Club 12.

Best of luck with the new ride. You will have to decide whether you want a real helmet or a local one. There is an Index shop on the corner of Rama IV and 42. If you fancy a carbon fibre (sic) Harley-esque helmet there is a small kiosk near Soi 44.

Edited January 24, 2014 by VocalNeal

[jackcorbett]

any years. So I know about handling, weight distribution, and what works. But lets get back to scooters....

I’ll pitch my 2007 Dream with 2P disc front end against your Nuevo anywhere anytime.

'My Nouvo Elegance in the real world will absolutely trounce nearly every Wave out there'. If you are talking straight line drag that is true. But I’m not talking about using your right hand, I’m talking about the whole rideability of the motorcycle.

My fuel consumption concepts are based on what I have been told by 3 scooter hire shop owners I know personally.

Please read very carefully what I wrote. Most Waves have skinny tires whereas my Elegance has tire widths that are approximately 33 percent wider. Yeah, if you increase the tire size of a wave, that's another ballgame, but I'm talking about most Waves out there and most Wave owners have these very narrow tires that cannot possibly handle well at higher speeds. And as for your fuel consumption concepts, mine are not someone else's opinion. I have tested the bikes myself, and in the case of the Nouvo SX I rented the first one for three days but my results were more highway mileage figures so I rented a second Nouvo SX for another three days to get much better numbers for city mileage. IT is not enough for me to get a motorbike shop owner's opinion or a friend's, I must get the data myself because only then do I know the figures are real.

[TT2600]

But the twist and go can produce more power than the crusty old 4 speeds.

Very interesting

With the greatest respect the reason the CVT is superior is because of the transmission not how much power the engine develops. I would suggest that the Scoopy 110i produces the same or less than the Wave 110i as an example yet the Scoopy will walk all over the Wave say on a kart track because the transmission is superior not because the engine produces more power.

Top speed would be a factor of overall gearing and aerodynamics.

indothai, on 24 Jan 2014 - 20:45, said:

I picked up a Honda Scoopy i Club 12.

Best of luck with the new ride. You will have to decide whether you want a real helmet or a local one. There is an Index shop on the corner of Rama IV and 42. If you fancy a carbon fibre (sic) Harley-esque helmet there is a small kiosk near Soi 44.

What vocal Neil says makes sense re the scoopy vs 110 wave in theory and he may be right, but I’d love to test that on a race track. Wheres the track? Lets try it!

[TT2600]

any years. So I know about handling, weight distribution, and what works. But lets get back to scooters....

I’ll pitch my 2007 Dream with 2P disc front end against your Nuevo anywhere anytime.

'My Nouvo Elegance in the real world will absolutely trounce nearly every Wave out there'. If you are talking straight line drag that is true. But I’m not talking about using your right hand, I’m talking about the whole rideability of the motorcycle.

My fuel consumption concepts are based on what I have been told by 3 scooter hire shop owners I know personally.

Please read very carefully what I wrote. Most Waves have skinny tires whereas my Elegance has tire widths that are approximately 33 percent wider. Yeah, if you increase the tire size of a wave, that's another ballgame, but I'm talking about most Waves out there and most Wave owners have these very narrow tires that cannot possibly handle well at higher speeds.

Absolute total <deleted>. Look at a classic racing 1960’s or 1970’s 125cc GP bike, (which would totally hose your Nuevo). They run similar size tyres eg 17” super skinny.

And as for your fuel consumption concepts, mine are not someone else's opinion. I have tested the bikes myself, and in the case of the Nouvo SX I rented the first one for three days but my results were more highway mileage figures so I rented a second Nouvo SX for another three days to get much better numbers for city mileage. IT is not enough for me to get a motorbike shop owner's opinion or a friend's, I must get the data myself because only then do I know the figures are real.

I’m not buying bikes from these guys Jack. I ride with them, have dinner with them, drink coffee and beer with them. These guys are my mates, and they each own many twist and goes, and a few waves. Guess what they ride in their own time...if they want to ride a scooter to the shop or next town....Waves and Dreams. What they say about the Nuevo is this...Goes like stink (for a scooter), but is scary at speed, and does not inspire confidence especially in the front. I’ve ridden 3, and I totally agree. Like me these guys have ridden many bikes for decades in many countries.

Jack. Think about it. The torque converter belt is slipping all the way up to the throttle setting the rider has chosen, and that will be its cruising speed. When it reaches that point it gets to as close to direct drive as its going to get. At that speed it may show its most economical traits. But the more stop start you do with lights, corners and up and down hill, on and off the throttle the more the torque converter is slipping, and its sucking fuel. My girlfriend has a Scoopy and when I thrash it it is horrendous on fuel. But I’m not basing my view on one bike, I base it on my girlfriends bike, 3 x rental shop owners view, and the Thai man with 4 race bikes view, and also the mechanics I know here and back in my country. Guys I have known 30 years. Not the view of someone in a Condo who may or may not actually even know how to test fuel consumption.

How About We Get Real Here. Anyone can type this stuff, but the proof is in the pudding.

To show i am not all talk, (and that you are not all talk), lets add a fuel test to the Scooter video equation at the same time, while we road test the bikes on curvy roads, bumpy curvy roads, an MX track and up a mountain. I’m willing to take the flack face to face 'live’ on video if I am wrong.

The Scooter test of the century on video! On Jacks Camera no less!

If you live in BKK, I’d suggest we meet in Bang Saphan, (as thats about half way from Phuket to BKK) for the Scooter Video Challenge . So Jack, are you prepared to put your money, bike and and camera where your mouth is? Do you have the 'moral fortitude’.. to put it politely, or do you just want to talk loud on social media? If you live in Phuket, fine lets do it here and in Phang Nga.

I threw down the gauntlet but you are so very sheepish on your ‘acceptance’ (read total silence) of my challenge to do all this for real on video. I have the bikes, the time and the inclination. To use some Thai...Hang Jute Tood? Na Khai Na! Do you want to prove how good the wonderful Nuevo is on camera, and how right you are, or are you just going to bench race? So take that challenge and invite all on this page.

Cat got your tongue?

[paz]

Well Scoopy Club and Zoomer have 12" but for comparison Vespa small frame LX has 10" Ok it has different front suspension but...People ride Vespas in Bangkok and Pattaya etc. and go riding up country on the weekends. Bigger Vespas ie. large frame have 12"

Scoopy Club and Zoomer have 100mm wide tires regular Scoopy has 80mm so if you like the 12" one are more like the Vespa

Mostly it's about style and to an extent manoeuvring in traffic.

In practical terms there is really no difference. There is a very slight advantage to larger wheels as the angle of attack if you hit a pothole is slightly less but I mean very slightly. On the other hand if you hit a pothole with 100mm tires you have an advantage because the deeper tire will absorb more of the shock.

Buy which ever one you like. None of your choices really have enough speed for the wheel size to make any considerable difference.

If you absolutely need a tie breaker. 12" Urban, 14" Rural.

Absolutely disagree, for the exact reasons given by others, plus having seen people riding on small wheels crashing when a tall wheel wouldn't have.

Vespa wheels are particularly bad and in fact the entire thing is known for its poor stability and inherent danger.

On a scooter, a 16" inches wheel is optimal, for example Honda SH150, or even front/read unequal size, like Piaggio Liberty that is 16"/14", now 15"/14" for the 2014 model.

Edited January 24, 2014 by paz

[seedy]

Meanwhile, the twist and go has one gear. One lonely gear.

You could also say that the CVT transmission, between full stop and max speed, has an infinite number of 'gears'

[coobah666]

John Holmes V Mandingo

[BSJ]

I don't like the feeling of falling when you lean into the turn at slow speed on the Scoopy we have with 12" wheels. The PCX and the Fino have bigger wheels and I don't get that feeling.

[VocalNeal]

I don't like the feeling of falling

Please lie on the couch. This is in your hippocampus and is a throw back to when we all used to live and sleep in trees.

On a more serious note if you don't come back home with grass on your helmet you haven't been leaning far enough!

Edited January 25, 2014 by VocalNeal

[MW72]

I don't like the feeling of falling

Please lie on the couch. This is in your hippocampus and is a throw back to when we all used to live and sleep in trees.

The creationists amongst us won't like that statement!

[JoePai]

Absolutely disagree, for the exact reasons given by others, plus having seen people riding on small wheels crashing when a tall wheel wouldn't have.

Vespa wheels are particularly bad and in fact the entire thing is known for its poor stability and inherent danger.

On a scooter, a 16" inches wheel is optimal, for example Honda SH150, or even front/read unequal size, like Piaggio Liberty that is 16"/14", now 15"/14" for the 2014 model.

If Vespa's are as bad as you say why do they keep making them and why are they so popular !

[BirdsandBooze]

I've got fat 12 inch tubeless on my SYM Fiddle 11 and it actually rides better than my previous Fino and Scoopy running on bigger wheels, although this is probably in large part to the superior damping of the SYM. It certainly handles the pot holes and uneven surfaces of BKK better than the Honda and Yamaha ever did. The SYM steers quicker too on it's 12 inchers.

[paz]

If Vespa's are as bad as you say why do they keep making them and why are they so popular !

Because quality and safety of a product often has little to do with it's popularity and success.

Edited January 25, 2014 by paz

[TT2600]

John Holmes V Mandingo

A man with no idea, who does not care, does not know the subject

is such an expert on who we are. Is anyone in your world allowed

to have an opinion, and debate it? Your world is beige. Damn glad

I am not you, your poor miserable sod.

Do you even know what Mandingo was? I doubt it.

[TT2600]

If Vespa's are as bad as you say why do they keep making them and why are they so popular !

Because quality and safety of a product often has little to do with it's popularity and success.

I agree. They are cool, that does not make them a good vehicle.