Buddha Issara : ?

[binjalin]

no politics on this thread please

Does anyone have ANY explanation why the Sangha have not derobed this monk? it is clearly against the 'Monk Act' for any monk to engage in political activity

yet here we find him leading demos - arguing with Police etc.

and he's a Buddhist Monk? any explanations how he possibly, within Buddhist principals, aligns himself with either side and how is he still wearing the robe?

[sabaijai]

He's not the first Thai monk to become involved in politics to this extent. There was the famous case of Phra Kittivutho in the late 70s and 80s, and a number of monks participated in the UDD demos of 2010.

Buddha Issara has come under scrutiny of the National Office of Buddhism, who have filed a police complaint, according to some news sources.

More info here:

http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Regional/2014/01/28/Controversial-monk-at-vanguard-of-Thai-street-protests/

The Sangha council has generally been tolerant of politically active monks, the Santi Asoke movement being an obvious exception.

[binjalin]

He's not the first Thai monk to become involved in politics to this extent. There was the famous case of Phra Kittivutho in the late 70s and 80s, and a number of monks participated in the UDD demos of 2010.

Buddha Issara has come under scrutiny of the National Office of Buddhism, who have filed a police complaint, according to some news sources.

More info here:

http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Regional/2014/01/28/Controversial-monk-at-vanguard-of-Thai-street-protests/

The Sangha council has generally been tolerant of politically active monks, the Santi Asoke movement being an obvious exception.

thank you - in the general context of Buddhism how can this be reconciled? with Buddha's teaching? surely it's inconsistent?

can i ask why a 'Police complaint'? why not disrobe?

[hookedondhamma]

Things just aren't as stringent these days. He won't disrobe unless something grave happens or he has had enough public pressure.

[sabaijai]

He's not the first Thai monk to become involved in politics to this extent. There was the famous case of Phra Kittivutho in the late 70s and 80s, and a number of monks participated in the UDD demos of 2010.

Buddha Issara has come under scrutiny of the National Office of Buddhism, who have filed a police complaint, according to some news sources.

More info here:

http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Regional/2014/01/28/Controversial-monk-at-vanguard-of-Thai-street-protests/

The Sangha council has generally been tolerant of politically active monks, the Santi Asoke movement being an obvious exception.

thank you - in the general context of Buddhism how can this be reconciled? with Buddha's teaching? surely it's inconsistent?

can i ask why a 'Police complaint'? why not disrobe?

Inconsistent? Welcome to Thai Buddhism.

[binjalin]

He's not the first Thai monk to become involved in politics to this extent. There was the famous case of Phra Kittivutho in the late 70s and 80s, and a number of monks participated in the UDD demos of 2010.

Buddha Issara has come under scrutiny of the National Office of Buddhism, who have filed a police complaint, according to some news sources.

More info here:

http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Regional/2014/01/28/Controversial-monk-at-vanguard-of-Thai-street-protests/

The Sangha council has generally been tolerant of politically active monks, the Santi Asoke movement being an obvious exception.

thank you - in the general context of Buddhism how can this be reconciled? with Buddha's teaching? surely it's inconsistent?

can i ask why a 'Police complaint'? why not disrobe?

Inconsistent? Welcome to Thai Buddhism.

ya... but sad though

[sabaijai]

Thailand looks to arrest Buddhist monk for insurrection

Washington Post, Feb 5, 2014

Authorities in Thailand are preparing to arrest and possibly defrock a senior Buddhist monk on charges of insurrection and breach of Buddhist discipline for leading anti-government protests.

Police on Tuesday (Feb. 4) asked a criminal court to authorize the arrest of Luang Pu Buddha Issara for laying siege to government offices in Bangkok’s Lak Si district and obstructing voting during last week’s general elections, the National News Bureau of Thailand reports.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/religion/thailand-looks-to-arrest-buddhist-monk-for-insurrection/2014/02/05/95c963e6-8e7e-11e3-878e-d76656564a01_story.html

[londonthai]

arrest was just granted by the court.

however, issara has with him armed bodyguards

[beautifulthailand99]

If we are going to start de-frocking in Thailand then there will be a huge queue that would fill up the drill yard of Dhammakaya - saw this on a recent trip to Hua Hin.

[fabianfred]

Although there is a precept about not handling gold or silver (money) for a long time in these present days it has been ignored. When on alms-round quite often somebody meeting a monk who has not prepared any food will still take the opportunity to make merit by giving money. Some give food and water and still add a few coins or a 20 baht note.

At the temple i was ordained, on a Buddha day (weekly observance day) the abbot led the line of monks receiving alms from the people who come to the temple to join in the morning service, and the people would all put any money they intended to give in his bowl, and the following monks and novices got rice and other stuff. Probably so as to not get it all mixed up...he then gave it to a committee member to count and sort.

In these days there are only a few forest monks, particularly the Ajarn Chah temples, who will not accept money. They do have it set up for a lay person to do all the transactions and banking etc.

If I had tried to go without any money it would have been very awkward and difficult when all the other monks and novices in our temple handled it. It is often necessary to use public transport, and for us foreign monks we still do visas at the immigration and need to handle money then.

The way we looked at it was that we should not accumulate money just for the sake of it, nor enter into any kind of business.

[beautifulthailand99]

Many thanks for the insightful observations Fred and I'm sure as you say there are many monks who handle money without compromising their beliefs and attitudes in any way. That said my Thai family were shocked to see it so widespread that morning (a nun walked along the beach doing the same ) and they had associated the practice with 'bad' monks. They come from the South and the practice anecdotally doesn't seem at all widespread down there.

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhistworld/faqmonks.htm

FAQ. 5: The Vinaya rules disallow monks from touching or handling money. As such, in Buddhist countries monks must have a Kappiya [attendant] to handle money for them. However, if a monk has to travel and does not have a Kappiya, under such circumstances do the Vinaya rules allow him to handle money personally? This is a problem especially in non-Buddhist countries.

A: While it may be a problem or inconvenience, the rules are there to protect and remind the monk about dangerous, unskilful actions. If the monk becomes increasingly involved with money there is a tendency for the whole of his bhikkhu-life to be compromised — and that would be a far greater problem. Soon after the Final Passing Away of the Lord Buddha this sort of question had already become a major controversy and it is now even more complex under modern conditions. However, modern conditions also have brought their own assistance to keeping these rules. For instance, a bhikkhu can be given an air ticket and travel around the world (if need be) without having any money or attendant. He will need to be met at the airport and helped in the normal way, but that should be natural if he has been invited to come by the lay group. (He should not really be travelling otherwise.) And, of course, a monk can use postage stamps and 'telephone-cards' that add convenience to communicating — when it is appropriate.

[sabaijai]

I've lived here 37 years and have seen monks all over Thailand, including southern provinces, accepting alms money. It is supposed to be passed on to the funds manager/trustee at the home temple at the end of pindabat.

[hookedondhamma]

I've lived here 37 years and have seen monks all over Thailand, including southern provinces, accepting alms money. It is supposed to be passed on to the funds manager/trustee at the home temple at the end of pindabat.

And it does for the most part. Thais are aware of the vinaya to an extent, and many will ask beforeplacing it in the bowl - many of those that do then place it in a plastic sleeve or envelope, to which the laymen will take out and put it in the donatio box for projects, electricity (of course there are exceptions but doesn't mean all do as such - it sure does give the busybodies some stuff to gossip about for a while though)

It's fascinating that some get so fed up with it - accepting things as how they are is better than going out of ones way to be angry. Thailand isn't perfect by any means nor is anywhere else.

[binjalin]

he calls himself Lord Buddha? (Issara = Lord) hardly the sign of a humble monk? any thoughts???

[hookedondhamma]

I thought his name meant 'freedom' but I haven't seen his name in thai yet.

It's common for monks to take on some pretty high names.

I know a phra vinaya, a phra moggala and a phra tep.

It doesn't necessarily reflect their habits and or personality though.

It's kind of similar to parents that name their sons after the holy angels, and they turn out to be the little hell-on-wheels.

[binjalin]

I thought his name meant 'freedom' but I haven't seen his name in thai yet.

It's common for monks to take on some pretty high names.

I know a phra vinaya, a phra moggala and a phra tep.

It doesn't necessarily reflect their habits and or personality though.

It's kind of similar to parents that name their sons after the holy angels, and they turn out to be the little hell-on-wheels.

but Buddha??? that's pretty 'aspiring' and this guy really let's the side down anyway

[casualbiker]

Binjalin (27 year Buddhist). Why don't you come on back and make more posts like the "He is not a 'real' monk who lives by the Buddhas teachings and the Sanghas rules" your famous for over in the phra-buddha-issara-criticised-for-jumping-the-gun thread.

AND leave these nice people alone. There's a good fellow.

[binjalin]

Binjalin (27 year Buddhist). Why don't you come on back and make more posts like the "He is not a 'real' monk who lives by the Buddhas teachings and the Sanghas rules" your famous for over in the phra-buddha-issara-criticised-for-jumping-the-gun thread.

AND leave these nice people alone. There's a good fellow.

oh hello - are you a trainee mod? I am asking a genuine question in the appropriate place - now go away there's a nice chap if you have nothing (as usual) to contribute

[sabaijai]

Buddhist Monks Join Protests in Thailand

High-Profile Activism by Clergy Unusual for Buddhism

JAMES HOOKWAY and

WILAWAN WATCHARASAKWET

March 5, 2014 7:12 p.m. ETBANGKOK— Luang Pu Buddha Issara doesn't fit the usual picture of a Buddhist monk.

Sure, his hair is shorn and he wears the clergy's distinctive saffron robes. But Phra Buddha Issara (Phra is a religious title) is also a leader of the street protests seeking to oust Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra.

His high-profile activism reflects how in Thailand, as well as some other predominantly Buddhist parts of Asia, the faith is taking on an increasingly political form.

Phra Buddha Issara is often seen prowling the perimeter of his protest camp with a walkie-talkie, accompanied by tough-looking bodyguards. Last week he led a picket against a pro-government television station to persuade it to lend more favorable coverage to protesters; station executives quickly complied.

A few days earlier, he launched a boycott campaign against businesses linked to the prime minister's family, including one of Asia's most profitable cellular phone networks. He and his followers also marched to a hotel owned by the Shinawatra clan to demand compensation for reservations that hotel managers had abruptly canceled; the monk pocketed the equivalent of $3,700.

The losses on the Thai stock market were much heavier: In just a few days, firms perceived to be linked to the Shinawatras lost a combined $2 billion of their market value.

Traditionally, Buddhist monks have seldom intervened in secular affairs. The religion emphasizes rising above the world of desire and suffering, with soft chanting and quiet meditation, and generally lacks the confrontational zeal that helped propel the spread of Christianity and Islam. There is no tradition of jihad or crusade in Buddhism.

But decades of economic mismanagement in Myanmar led some Buddhist monks to take a stand against that country's former military leaders in the so-called Saffron Revolution in 2007. After the arrival of a quasi-civilian government in 2011, some militant Buddhists began violently opposing what they see as the spread of foreign beliefs, especially Islam.

In Sri Lanka, the end of the civil war in 2009 has given fresh impetus to Sinhalese Buddhist nationalists to push back against what they perceive as the influence of Christianity and Islam among the minority ethnic-Tamil population.

Buddhism is also tied up in Tibetan ideas of nationhood and the Dalai Lama continues to play a prominent role internationally, as China's outrage over President Barack Obama's meeting with the exiled dissident last month showed.

In Thailand, one of the spiritual centers of Buddhism, factional rivalries within the faith are amplifying a political battle that has claimed 22 lives since early November.

Broadly put, the contest is between a new wave of populist politicians such as Ms. Yingluck and her elder brother, former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, and the royalist old guard, which has customarily held veto power over the actions of elected leaders.

Additional spice is provided by the uncertainty over who or what will fill the gap left when the reign of the ailing, 86-year-old King Bhumibol Adulyadej ends.

The competing factions have used monks to add a measure of spiritual legitimacy to their cause, and Phra Buddha Issara is just one of several taking sides.

In 2010, hundreds of clerics quietly lent their support to pro-Shinawatra "Red Shirt" protesters, dozens of whom were shot dead by security forces in Bangkok while pushing for new elections.

A dozen senior monks were placed on the then-government's security watch list. Some, including monks who, like many of the Red Shirts, come from the northeast of the country, joined protests as a kind of human shield to deter action from security forces.

"Monastic politics in Thailand are a mirror image of the country's secular politics, characterized by deep divisions and uncertainties about the future," academic and author Duncan McCargo wrote in a study about the growing politicization of Buddhist monks here.

Phra Buddha Issara, 46 years old, is one of staunchest opponents of the Red Shirt movement.

In an interview at his heavily fortified protest camp on the northern outskirts of Bangkok, he called democracy a "poison fruit," and said Buddhists should stand firm to rein in the influence of populist leaders such as Ms. Yingluck and Mr. Thaksin.

The Buddhist clergy, or sangha, was largely sidelined from political life after the end of the absolute monarchy in 1932, and since then, too many monks have been free riders, he said, content to let secular leaders run Thailand.

Some Buddhist organizations have tried to put the brakes on Phra Buddha Issara's activism, warning him that he is violating clerical rules by taking such a public, political stance in a country where monks aren't even allowed to vote.

The country's highest Buddhist authority, the Supreme Sangha Council, though, has been rudderless since the death of its supreme patriarch at the age of 100 in October. It could be months before a new leader is chosen.

That leaves plenty of time for Phra Buddha Issara and other activist monks to reshape the role that monks play in Thailand's increasingly bloody politics.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304834704579402350661992292?mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424052702304834704579402350661992292.html

[hookedondhamma]

It's a headache.

At one time things were probably in order to an extent for the sangha council, but as time went on they were to afraid to correct their friends when they were obviously in the wrong.

Now it's somewhat late to try and stop things ... that is if they wanted to try.

I highly doubt things will change; the world sees more and more of this but they don't really care about how they are percieved from the outside.

Can't even count how much nationalistic drivel I have heard in the form of 'Dhamma' talks but it is often what puts a smile on faces here.

What is even more odd are the people that support him (or any other monk involved with acts that deviate from what they supposedly tested on in the Dhamma exams). Many say corrupt monk this and corrupt monk that, but both these laypeople and monks both are apples from the same tree.

the good thing is not all of them are like that, though, but no attention is given to those who are a little more stern in practice.

[Tchooptip]

I have personally nothing against him, on the contrary I have a certain sympathy, I believe his intentions are honest... it is only a feeling of course I could be wrong as he could be himself, but we are not perfect, nor are the monks.

[moonao]

Earlier I posted these questions in another thread, apologies, I was unaware this thread existed.
A lot has happened regarding this monk recently, in light of this I have 3 questions,

These 3 questions are directed at former monks, or those with good knowledge of Monk rules according to Thai Buddhism.

Firstly, from what I understand, for a monk to title himself as "Buddha" is a major offense, claiming he is enlightened (Buddha means enlightened one). It is one of the rules that can cause immediate expulsion, together with murder. Would this apply ?

Secondly, from Access to Insight,

Quote

A bhikkhu's wrong mode of livelihood also includes:

"running messages and errands for kings, ministers of state, householders, etc. A modern example would be participating in political campaigns." (BMC p.152)

http://www.accesstoi...ide.html#fn-116. would this apply ? I believe 100% yes.

Thirdly, does a monks status end immediately after committing a major rule breach, or does this happen after he is formally defrocked by his seniors ?

From what I understand, he loses his status immediately after committing a disrobing offense.

Cheers.

[moonao]

@sabaijai, is it possible to merge hookedondhammas response ?

[sabaijai]

Do you mean this thread?

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/725303-is-buddha-issara-pcad-leader-a-real-monk/

[Curt1591]

Has anyone noticed Luang Pu Buddha Issara's name on any of the General's invites?

[sabaijai]

Phra Buddha Issara was detained with Suthep et al.

Along with others, he was charged with insurrection and released on bail today to await trial.

http://www.fm91bkk.com/home91/index.php/2011-12-29-10-37-03/7040--1---25---

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[lungmi]

Binjalin and Moonao

The duties of monks are different in Asian contries.

In Myanmar the "saffran revolution" was made by social engaged monks. (They followed the Teaching of the Buddha 100%, supported

by the International Network of Engaged Buddhists, (the Dalai Lama, Thích Nhất Hạnh and Tan Buddhadasa were the founder)

against their corrupt junta payed high sangha.

I cannot say the same for Buddha Issara (lack of correct information), but he is on the same w

My name is Jiradammo.

I disrobed 24 years ago.

But I can use this name devoid any other addition.

Edited May 28, 2014 by lungmi