Thai northeast vows poll payback to Shinawatra clan

[Publicus]

@Roadman

You wrote -

So what does that make your postings on here? If you are so wisely intelligent and so widely knowledgeable on Thailand's political situation as you proclaim then why are your posts so slanted and prejudice against one group only?

You are proclaiming yourself against me; I've proclaimed nothing consistent with your personalized ad hominem characterizations (and I admit to some indiscretion in this regard as well).

Looking at fascism and democracy, there are two sides in this fight but there are not two sides to this story. There is one side, which is to defend, preserve and extend Thai democracy as the instrument of justice and equality it is designed to be, however imperfect it may be in the former LOS. I'm posting against one side because the one side are fascists with fascist goons doing the dirty work of destroying an election and democracy.

On the one side, however, I've stated a number of times I believe Thaksin is a dictator, that from Bangkok to Dubai I don't like his style. I saw him elected in 2001, exercise dictatorial powers and be forcibly and illegitimately removed in 2006, and all else since then. Yet it's easy to recognize that Thaksin is persecuted by the opposing elite, not because he is a dictator or that he too is massively corrupt, but because he brought the rural dispossessed to the table.

I've posted ad infinitum that the people who vote for the political parties Thaksin's opposing elites detest and despise deserve to be cut in on the deal that is contemporary Thailand, but instead face an array of entrenched and unjust institutional rejection and resistance. The opposition to them has now escalated to the level of militant fascism and I have zero good to say about that. I become vehement in my defense of Thai democracy as it is and all my life hostile against fascism in any shape or form, any time anywhere. My father went to fight against it to defeat it in Europe and so do I fight against it where ever I may be, always.

I've taken time to be clear to you, or as clear as I can be. Key words here are advocacy and principle. It's up to you now to grasp at least the essentials of my exposition in response to your posts, inane and as personalized as your posts may be.

[aimbc]

My father went to fight against it to defeat it in Europe and so do I fight against it where ever I may be, always.

Sorry, I had to make that comment, because I served in the military and I would be offended by this statement if you did not serve in the military yourself.

[Publicus]

My father went to fight against it to defeat it in Europe and so do I fight against it where ever I may be, always.

Sorry, I had to make that comment, because I served in the military and I would be offended by this statement if you did not serve in the military yourself.

I volunteered for Army ROTC at university and served four years active duty and several years after that in the reserves. I was in the Infantry, the Old Guard of the Army, Washington DC, honorably separated from active duty and honorably discharged from military service and obligations.

I later worked as professional staff in the US House of Representatives in Washington for the Committee on Veteran's Affairs, specializing in readjustment programs of Education, Training, Employment, and in VA Medical and Hospital Care.

I've been a member of the American Legion for longer than I like to admit and active in American Legion Baseball.

I make this public post about it because you publically posted in the matter. I'd enjoy a PM with a fellow veteran, one who wore the uniform.

Edited to add that I have nothing but contempt of the Thai military.

Edited January 31, 2014 by Publicus

[chadintheusa]

Brainwashed into believing that any positive development in their area is a result of Thaksin and PTP.

So you reckon that all northerners are stupid, huh? Happily they have the chanting, whistle blowing, independent thinking mob in Bangkok to look after them - once they've finished handing over their savings to a man who has some vague totalitarian concept of a non-elected council, headed by him of course, who will guide the nation. On available evidence, the north seems to be slightly more worldwise.

So a government headed by an non-elected figure is only acceptable if it is the PT being told what to do by Thaksin? Ask the farmers who gave the PT their vote, then gave them their rice whether they feel smart now. You can't say that the reds aren't just as guilty of the same mob mentality. They even need help deciding which color shirt to wear to the polls.

[Roadman]

@Roadman

You wrote -

So what does that make your postings on here? If you are so wisely intelligent and so widely knowledgeable on Thailand's political situation as you proclaim then why are your posts so slanted and prejudice against one group only?

You are proclaiming yourself against me; I've proclaimed nothing consistent with your personalized ad hominem characterizations (and I admit to some indiscretion in this regard as well).

Looking at fascism and democracy, there are two sides in this fight but there are not two sides to this story. There is one side, which is to defend, preserve and extend Thai democracy as the instrument of justice and equality it is designed to be, however imperfect it may be in the former LOS. I'm posting against one side because the one side are fascists with fascist goons doing the dirty work of destroying an election and democracy.

On the one side, however, I've stated a number of times I believe Thaksin is a dictator, that from Bangkok to Dubai I don't like his style. I saw him elected in 2001, exercise dictatorial powers and be forcibly and illegitimately removed in 2006, and all else since then. Yet it's easy to recognize that Thaksin is persecuted by the opposing elite, not because he is a dictator or that he too is massively corrupt, but because he brought the rural dispossessed to the table.

I've posted ad infinitum that the people who vote for the political parties Thaksin's opposing elites detest and despise deserve to be cut in on the deal that is contemporary Thailand, but instead face an array of entrenched and unjust institutional rejection and resistance. The opposition to them has now escalated to the level of militant fascism and I have zero good to say about that. I become vehement in my defense of Thai democracy as it is and all my life hostile against fascism in any shape or form, any time anywhere. My father went to fight against it to defeat it in Europe and so do I fight against it where ever I may be, always.

I've taken time to be clear to you, or as clear as I can be. Key words here are advocacy and principle. It's up to you now to grasp at least the essentials of my exposition in response to your posts, inane and as personalized as your posts may be.

I have been very civil to you right through this thread. Refer back to my previous post where you introduced the personal attack with stupid...see there in the brackets at the end..."stupid". The flaw in your debate which you have built around is that you have applied that Thailand has, or had a democratic government, jeez...this pack of crap that pass as politicians? ..yet you detest Thaksin who is the leader of it for the all of this century. Look at a good chunk of Pheau Thai and the Shinawatra's with honest assessment...democratic? You yourself admit Thaksin is corrupt.. but defend his family as they take over the country...strange sort of democracy that is. Were all before him corrupt? Are a good chunk of the other politicians corrupt? Of course they are. Was corruption here before Thaksin came to power? Of course it was. Difference is the Shianawtra's are taking the whole deal to a different level. Suthep, yes also is a loose canon and may have a fascist element about him. He may have "elite" money with him (same as the other side) but also there where it mattered over the peoples court convicted fugitive criminal in Dubai thinking he was coming home, the people at that point also included everyday people from all walks of life who were waking up to the crap that passes for democracy in Thailand as being out of control. Those people are not fascist they are democratic and have had enough. Suthep and Thaksin should be both held to account when the country politically collapses.

But in the mean time lets have another election with the same stupid outcomes. The only hope in this country is for the 1/3 of Thais who would not support corruption for their gain start standing up to all the politicians, elite and other general scum who are screwing them over.

[Publicus]

Brainwashed into believing that any positive development in their area is a result of Thaksin and PTP.

So you reckon that all northerners are stupid, huh? Happily they have the chanting, whistle blowing, independent thinking mob in Bangkok to look after them - once they've finished handing over their savings to a man who has some vague totalitarian concept of a non-elected council, headed by him of course, who will guide the nation. On available evidence, the north seems to be slightly more worldwise.

So a government headed by an non-elected figure is only acceptable if it is the PT being told what to do by Thaksin? Ask the farmers who gave the PT their vote, then gave them their rice whether they feel smart now. You can't say that the reds aren't just as guilty of the same mob mentality. They even need help deciding which color shirt to wear to the polls.

"They even need help deciding which color shirt to wear to the polls".

Quite to the contrary, the RS are clear about it. Wearing a red shirt to go to vote in this election is to get the attention of the no election today, or ever, fascist bulls at the polling stations to charge you with their sticks and clubs.

The is the mangled and twisted definition of civil disobedience presented by Suthep and his backers.

Others call it what it is - civil insurrection to establish a fascist state. And all the while people who originate from mature and sophisticated democracies defend the indefensible and advocate the illegal acts of thugs, goons, henchmen.

[Publicus]

@Roadman

You wrote -

So what does that make your postings on here? If you are so wisely intelligent and so widely knowledgeable on Thailand's political situation as you proclaim then why are your posts so slanted and prejudice against one group only?

You are proclaiming yourself against me; I've proclaimed nothing consistent with your personalized ad hominem characterizations (and I admit to some indiscretion in this regard as well).

Looking at fascism and democracy, there are two sides in this fight but there are not two sides to this story. There is one side, which is to defend, preserve and extend Thai democracy as the instrument of justice and equality it is designed to be, however imperfect it may be in the former LOS. I'm posting against one side because the one side are fascists with fascist goons doing the dirty work of destroying an election and democracy.

On the one side, however, I've stated a number of times I believe Thaksin is a dictator, that from Bangkok to Dubai I don't like his style. I saw him elected in 2001, exercise dictatorial powers and be forcibly and illegitimately removed in 2006, and all else since then. Yet it's easy to recognize that Thaksin is persecuted by the opposing elite, not because he is a dictator or that he too is massively corrupt, but because he brought the rural dispossessed to the table.

I've posted ad infinitum that the people who vote for the political parties Thaksin's opposing elites detest and despise deserve to be cut in on the deal that is contemporary Thailand, but instead face an array of entrenched and unjust institutional rejection and resistance. The opposition to them has now escalated to the level of militant fascism and I have zero good to say about that. I become vehement in my defense of Thai democracy as it is and all my life hostile against fascism in any shape or form, any time anywhere. My father went to fight against it to defeat it in Europe and so do I fight against it where ever I may be, always.

I've taken time to be clear to you, or as clear as I can be. Key words here are advocacy and principle. It's up to you now to grasp at least the essentials of my exposition in response to your posts, inane and as personalized as your posts may be.

I have been very civil to you right through this thread. Refer back to my previous post where you introduced the personal attack with stupid...see there in the brackets at the end..."stupid". The flaw in your debate which you have built around is that you have applied that Thailand has, or had a democratic government, jeez...this pack of crap that pass as politicians? ..yet you detest Thaksin who is the leader of it for the all of this century. Look at a good chunk of Pheau Thai and the Shinawatra's with honest assessment...democratic? You yourself admit Thaksin is corrupt.. but defend his family as they take over the country...strange sort of democracy that is. Were all before him corrupt? Are a good chunk of the other politicians corrupt? Of course they are. Was corruption here before Thaksin came to power? Of course it was. Difference is the Shianawtra's are taking the whole deal to a different level. Suthep, yes also is a loose canon and may have a fascist element about him. He may have "elite" money with him (same as the other side) but also there where it mattered over the peoples court convicted fugitive criminal in Dubai thinking he was coming home, the people at that point also included everyday people from all walks of life who were waking up to the crap that passes for democracy in Thailand as being out of control. Those people are not fascist they are democratic and have had enough. Suthep and Thaksin should be both held to account when the country politically collapses.

But in the mean time lets have another election with the same stupid outcomes. The only hope in this country is for the 1/3 of Thais who would not support corruption for their gain start standing up to all the politicians, elite and other general scum who are screwing them over.

You and I are going around in circles because you argue for fascist insurrection and I argue for democracy, voting, and to honor and respect the outcome. That's all democrats seek, to respect and honor the outcome of elections.

So anyway....

Let me advance this proposition, which is to have a national referendum on whether there should be "reforms" before there is a general election. Such a national referendum can be organized in 30 to 45 days tops.

Of course, Suthep would have to reveal the still secret composition of his, ahem, "People's Council," and the Council would have to reveal its still secret agenda of, ahem, "reforms" in specific detail and exactness. That's open, it's democratic, so I could go with it.

There would be too short a time for the public to acquaint itself with the Council membership once it is revealed, and with the many specific "reform" proposals on the Council's agenda, but at least these matters would become public, open, subject to scrutiny, discussion, debate. People would get the essence of it sufficiently to vote on it and reasonably so.

Presently you are demanding - not asking, demanding - the public accept a black box, i.e., a still secret composition of the Council and a still secret agenda of the Council, which is not acceptable when the idea germinates in the mad mind of a militant fascist and his backers.

Forward.

[englishoak]

Only here would a political movement strut around demanding without having the sense to realise you have to negotiate and compromise and accept you can't have everything one way.

It is no surprise that people who have been used to getting what they want forever expect their demands are met 100%. Unfortunately life isnt like that for real everyday people and Suthep has 30 years of political background to know this. Ie He should and does know better, therefore we can only conclude that to stick 100% to these demands he.

1 Has had some kind of cognitive or mental breakdown

2 Has express orders not to deviate from the protest demands whatever the cost

3 Has an agenda that is both fascist and totalitarian regardless of his claims of voting suspension being temporary

4 All of the above

We have not had one name of his list, not one reform proposal or roadmap, nothing only claims suspending voting would be temporary, the reformers would be hand picked and reforms to date and only are that the Shins be booted out....

This is not reform just a witch hunt nor has any reasonable think tank been set up or proposals given, theres not one even on it yet and the page is blank.

The suspension of voting with an undisclosed timeline, lack of reform ideas or a fair representative group or council with names to scrutinise means he really just wants what he wants, known only to him and certain others..........this is not the answer Thailand so badly needs and if any still think it is and hes to be trusted with his background they seriously should question their gullibility and logic of supporting this very dangerous madman.

Edited February 1, 2014 by englishoak

[Muhendis]

Wasn't the 30 Baht Healtrhcare program initiated by the Democrats?

No, the original 30 baht scheme was another wonder of Thaksin. That likely would have bankrupted the health system.

The Democrats actually made it free - but the Red Shirts in 2010 were actually saying they wanted the 30 baht scheme because they didn't want to be seen as poor.

The 30 Baht health care scheme would have bankrupted the health system, but the Democrats making it free afterwards didn't bankrupt it?

If it didn't go bankrupt free, why would it go bankrupt with 30 Baht?

What kind of logic is that?

I think it wouldn't make much difference to the national coffers either way, but having it free apparently saved on admin costs. It's to the credit of the Abhisit government that they continued the programme, and perhaps indicates that competition between 2 political parties for votes can help the whole country.

The scheme has been widely praised, most recently only the other day:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/opinion/Universal-healthcare-Aids-fight-a-triumph-for-Thai-30225592.html

It is seen as a shining example of health care for middle income countries. However, the World Bank cautions that cost factors are a concern as the Thai population ages:

http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2012/08/20/thailand-sustaining-health-protection-for-all

Same problem as UK. Need for increased govt. spending = need more tax income. Highly unpopular so must reduce services.

[daboyz1]

Looks like Amsterdam got a job as a reporter with AFP.

[Spalpeen]

@Roadman

You wrote -

So what does that make your postings on here? If you are so wisely intelligent and so widely knowledgeable on Thailand's political situation as you proclaim then why are your posts so slanted and prejudice against one group only?

You are proclaiming yourself against me; I've proclaimed nothing consistent with your personalized ad hominem characterizations (and I admit to some indiscretion in this regard as well).

Looking at fascism and democracy, there are two sides in this fight but there are not two sides to this story. There is one side, which is to defend, preserve and extend Thai democracy as the instrument of justice and equality it is designed to be, however imperfect it may be in the former LOS. I'm posting against one side because the one side are fascists with fascist goons doing the dirty work of destroying an election and democracy.

On the one side, however, I've stated a number of times I believe Thaksin is a dictator, that from Bangkok to Dubai I don't like his style. I saw him elected in 2001, exercise dictatorial powers and be forcibly and illegitimately removed in 2006, and all else since then. Yet it's easy to recognize that Thaksin is persecuted by the opposing elite, not because he is a dictator or that he too is massively corrupt, but because he brought the rural dispossessed to the table.

I've posted ad infinitum that the people who vote for the political parties Thaksin's opposing elites detest and despise deserve to be cut in on the deal that is contemporary Thailand, but instead face an array of entrenched and unjust institutional rejection and resistance. The opposition to them has now escalated to the level of militant fascism and I have zero good to say about that. I become vehement in my defense of Thai democracy as it is and all my life hostile against fascism in any shape or form, any time anywhere. My father went to fight against it to defeat it in Europe and so do I fight against it where ever I may be, always.

I've taken time to be clear to you, or as clear as I can be. Key words here are advocacy and principle. It's up to you now to grasp at least the essentials of my exposition in response to your posts, inane and as personalized as your posts may be.

The flaw in your debate which you have built around is that you have applied that Thailand has, or had a democratic government, jeez...this pack of crap that pass as politicians? ........

.

I love it when Farangs get all self righteous about the quality of democracy in Thailand and slag off Thai politicians for being uniquely corrupt. Let's have a look at an average US politician when he's questioned about corruption in his campaign finances and lets the mask slip.

.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/29/us-congressman-michael-grimm-threatens-reporter

[Yunla]

Somsamai said insults by protest leaders in Bangkok have tightened the bond between Thailand's poorest people and its most prominent political outcast.

Suthep's mad schemes have given some of the moral impetus back to PTP, just as they were starting to weaken and get backlash from their support base last November. If I were Yingluck I'd send him a big box of chocolates and a thankyou card.

[daboyz1]

Looking at fascism and democracy, there are two sides in this fight but there are not two sides to this story. There is one side, which is to defend, preserve and extend Thai democracy as the instrument of justice and equality it is designed to be, however imperfect it may be in the former LOS. I'm posting against one side because the one side are fascists with fascist goons doing the dirty work of destroying an election and democracy.

On the one side, however, I've stated a number of times I believe Thaksin is a dictator, that from Bangkok to Dubai I don't like his style. I saw him elected in 2001, exercise dictatorial powers and be forcibly and illegitimately removed in 2006, and all else since then. Yet it's easy to recognize that Thaksin is persecuted by the opposing elite, not because he is a dictator or that he too is massively corrupt, but because he brought the rural dispossessed to the table.

I've posted ad infinitum that the people who vote for the political parties Thaksin's opposing elites detest and despise deserve to be cut in on the deal that is contemporary Thailand, but instead face an array of entrenched and unjust institutional rejection and resistance. The opposition to them has now escalated to the level of militant fascism and I have zero good to say about that. I become vehement in my defense of Thai democracy as it is and all my life hostile against fascism in any shape or form, any time anywhere. My father went to fight against it to defeat it in Europe and so do I fight against it where ever I may be, always.

I've taken time to be clear to you, or as clear as I can be. Key words here are advocacy and principle. It's up to you now to grasp at least the essentials of my exposition in response to your posts, inane and as personalized as your posts may be.

I agree with you that this "people's council" seems very suspicious. OTOH the criminal in Dubai will NOT release his grip on power.

I disagree that Thaskin was illegitimately removed in 2006. He won an election that that was boycotted and never received a royal endorsement. From that point forward he was not the legitimate PM of Thailand. It's unfortunate that the police can't/wont do their job in this country, hence the need for the military to step in and do it for them. The people in Isaan have been played by Thaksin. He gave them some good things back in the day, but you don't help people by simply giving them handouts. You need to give them a path to do well for themselves. Anyone that uses a campaign slogan such as "all Thais will be rich in 6 months" is an obvious fraudster. The rice bribe has failed miserably as well. I could go on and on about Thaksin and is failed policies, but they've been documented here 1000s of times.

I wish there was a 3rd choice. Because Thaksin's sister and Suthep's politburo sure don't seem like they'll resolve anything.

People can't look at this through the lens of American politics or even western politics in general. (I'm American by the way) You need to have the rule of law for a functioning democracy, not the rule of law that suits the highest bidder. Until Thailand has that, it will just be a continuous series of leaders ripping off the people. You can't resolve your legal issues with a donut box full of money.

While it's never good to have the military step in and take power, I thought it was warranted in 2006, and I still today think it was a good thing. .

[tetleythedog]

Brainwashed into believing that any positive development in their area is a result of Thaksin and PTP.

This Isaan lady they spoke to is a financial genius and should be the new Prime Minister. She extended her house and increased her store/ businesss with a 300 dollar micro loan ! Just think what she could do with a 3.2 trillion Baht loan !!!!

[kikoman]

Looking at fascism and democracy, there are two sides in this fight but there are not two sides to this story. There is one side, which is to defend, preserve and extend Thai democracy as the instrument of justice and equality it is designed to be, however imperfect it may be in the former LOS. I'm posting against one side because the one side are fascists with fascist goons doing the dirty work of destroying an election and democracy.

On the one side, however, I've stated a number of times I believe Thaksin is a dictator, that from Bangkok to Dubai I don't like his style. I saw him elected in 2001, exercise dictatorial powers and be forcibly and illegitimately removed in 2006, and all else since then. Yet it's easy to recognize that Thaksin is persecuted by the opposing elite, not because he is a dictator or that he too is massively corrupt, but because he brought the rural dispossessed to the table.

I've posted ad infinitum that the people who vote for the political parties Thaksin's opposing elites detest and despise deserve to be cut in on the deal that is contemporary Thailand, but instead face an array of entrenched and unjust institutional rejection and resistance. The opposition to them has now escalated to the level of militant fascism and I have zero good to say about that. I become vehement in my defense of Thai democracy as it is and all my life hostile against fascism in any shape or form, any time anywhere. My father went to fight against it to defeat it in Europe and so do I fight against it where ever I may be, always.

I've taken time to be clear to you, or as clear as I can be. Key words here are advocacy and principle. It's up to you now to grasp at least the essentials of my exposition in response to your posts, inane and as personalized as your posts may be.

I agree with you that this "people's council" seems very suspicious. OTOH the criminal in Dubai will NOT release his grip on power.

I disagree that Thaskin was illegitimately removed in 2006. He won an election that that was boycotted and never received a royal endorsement. From that point forward he was not the legitimate PM of Thailand. It's unfortunate that the police can't/wont do their job in this country, hence the need for the military to step in and do it for them. The people in Isaan have been played by Thaksin. He gave them some good things back in the day, but you don't help people by simply giving them handouts. You need to give them a path to do well for themselves. Anyone that uses a campaign slogan such as "all Thais will be rich in 6 months" is an obvious fraudster. The rice bribe has failed miserably as well. I could go on and on about Thaksin and is failed policies, but they've been documented here 1000s of times.

I wish there was a 3rd choice. Because Thaksin's sister and Suthep's politburo sure don't seem like they'll resolve anything.

People can't look at this through the lens of American politics or even western politics in general. (I'm American by the way) You need to have the rule of law for a functioning democracy, not the rule of law that suits the highest bidder. Until Thailand has that, it will just be a continuous series of leaders ripping off the people. You can't resolve your legal issues with a donut box full of money.

While it's never good to have the military step in and take power, I thought it was warranted in 2006, and I still today think it was a good thing. .

I have to strongly disagree with your post, if Thaksin violated election laws in the 2001, why did the military wait until 2006 to address your assumptions (realizing maybe you are not more knowledgeable then the legal and judicial system of Thailand).

The elite ordered the military to act as they knew His politics and their domination of the political structure where on a collision course.

The military coup of 2006, and later the non-elected Democrats , represented by Suthep ordered the military to end the Red-shirt demonstrations that likened them to Fascist actions that dominated the political situation in Europe for almost a decade that resulted in ten's of millions of lives lost (23 million in Russia alone) are the root cause of the current unrest.

Thaksin greatest achievement was that of the awakening the less affluent population in the country, to the realization of the "power of their vote" and Thailand will never be the same business as usual that his election forever changed in 2001, be he a hero or a tyrant, the great service he did for the country's "have not's" can not be denied. This was behind the protesters objective of denying the less affluent in the country the right to vote.

The Election will take place as dictated by the royal decree, the yellow's are in the process of 'damage control' Democracy has prevailed in this current challenge, what the future holds, remains unknown!

Cheers

[jocko]

@Roadman

You wrote -

So what does that make your postings on here? If you are so wisely intelligent and so widely knowledgeable on Thailand's political situation as you proclaim then why are your posts so slanted and prejudice against one group only?

You are proclaiming yourself against me; I've proclaimed nothing consistent with your personalized ad hominem characterizations (and I admit to some indiscretion in this regard as well).

Looking at fascism and democracy, there are two sides in this fight but there are not two sides to this story. There is one side, which is to defend, preserve and extend Thai democracy as the instrument of justice and equality it is designed to be, however imperfect it may be in the former LOS. I'm posting against one side because the one side are fascists with fascist goons doing the dirty work of destroying an election and democracy.

On the one side, however, I've stated a number of times I believe Thaksin is a dictator, that from Bangkok to Dubai I don't like his style. I saw him elected in 2001, exercise dictatorial powers and be forcibly and illegitimately removed in 2006, and all else since then. Yet it's easy to recognize that Thaksin is persecuted by the opposing elite, not because he is a dictator or that he too is massively corrupt, but because he brought the rural dispossessed to the table.

I've posted ad infinitum that the people who vote for the political parties Thaksin's opposing elites detest and despise deserve to be cut in on the deal that is contemporary Thailand, but instead face an array of entrenched and unjust institutional rejection and resistance. The opposition to them has now escalated to the level of militant fascism and I have zero good to say about that. I become vehement in my defense of Thai democracy as it is and all my life hostile against fascism in any shape or form, any time anywhere. My father went to fight against it to defeat it in Europe and so do I fight against it where ever I may be, always.

I've taken time to be clear to you, or as clear as I can be. Key words here are advocacy and principle. It's up to you now to grasp at least the essentials of my exposition in response to your posts, inane and as personalized as your posts may be.

I have been very civil to you right through this thread. Refer back to my previous post where you introduced the personal attack with stupid...see there in the brackets at the end..."stupid". The flaw in your debate which you have built around is that you have applied that Thailand has, or had a democratic government, jeez...this pack of crap that pass as politicians? ..yet you detest Thaksin who is the leader of it for the all of this century. Look at a good chunk of Pheau Thai and the Shinawatra's with honest assessment...democratic? You yourself admit Thaksin is corrupt.. but defend his family as they take over the country...strange sort of democracy that is. Were all before him corrupt? Are a good chunk of the other politicians corrupt? Of course they are. Was corruption here before Thaksin came to power? Of course it was. Difference is the Shianawtra's are taking the whole deal to a different level. Suthep, yes also is a loose canon and may have a fascist element about him. He may have "elite" money with him (same as the other side) but also there where it mattered over the peoples court convicted fugitive criminal in Dubai thinking he was coming home, the people at that point also included everyday people from all walks of life who were waking up to the crap that passes for democracy in Thailand as being out of control. Those people are not fascist they are democratic and have had enough. Suthep and Thaksin should be both held to account when the country politically collapses.

But in the mean time lets have another election with the same stupid outcomes. The only hope in this country is for the 1/3 of Thais who would not support corruption for their gain start standing up to all the politicians, elite and other general scum who are screwing them over.

You and I are going around in circles because you argue for fascist insurrection and I argue for democracy, voting, and to honor and respect the outcome. That's all democrats seek, to respect and honor the outcome of elections.

So anyway....

Let me advance this proposition, which is to have a national referendum on whether there should be "reforms" before there is a general election. Such a national referendum can be organized in 30 to 45 days tops.

Of course, Suthep would have to reveal the still secret composition of his, ahem, "People's Council," and the Council would have to reveal its still secret agenda of, ahem, "reforms" in specific detail and exactness. That's open, it's democratic, so I could go with it.

There would be too short a time for the public to acquaint itself with the Council membership once it is revealed, and with the many specific "reform" proposals on the Council's agenda, but at least these matters would become public, open, subject to scrutiny, discussion, debate. People would get the essence of it sufficiently to vote on it and reasonably so.

Presently you are demanding - not asking, demanding - the public accept a black box, i.e., a still secret composition of the Council and a still secret agenda of the Council, which is not acceptable when the idea germinates in the mad mind of a militant fascist and his backers.

Forward.

Your so anyway proposition just about sums it up that's what I was thinking but couldn't put it down as well as you.

Dreading next week.

[Ricardo]

Brainwashed into believing that any positive development in their area is a result of Thaksin and PTP.

This Isaan lady they spoke to is a financial genius and should be the new Prime Minister. She extended her house and increased her store/ businesss with a 300 dollar micro loan ! Just think what she could do with a 3.2 trillion Baht loan !!!!

Or even a loan of B2.2-trillion, plus interest, with repayments over 50 years, like the proposed infrastructure-spending.

[daboyz1]

I agree with you that this "people's council" seems very suspicious. OTOH the criminal in Dubai will NOT release his grip on power.

I disagree that Thaskin was illegitimately removed in 2006. He won an election that that was boycotted and never received a royal endorsement. From that point forward he was not the legitimate PM of Thailand. It's unfortunate that the police can't/wont do their job in this country, hence the need for the military to step in and do it for them. The people in Isaan have been played by Thaksin. He gave them some good things back in the day, but you don't help people by simply giving them handouts. You need to give them a path to do well for themselves. Anyone that uses a campaign slogan such as "all Thais will be rich in 6 months" is an obvious fraudster. The rice bribe has failed miserably as well. I could go on and on about Thaksin and is failed policies, but they've been documented here 1000s of times.

I wish there was a 3rd choice. Because Thaksin's sister and Suthep's politburo sure don't seem like they'll resolve anything.

People can't look at this through the lens of American politics or even western politics in general. (I'm American by the way) You need to have the rule of law for a functioning democracy, not the rule of law that suits the highest bidder. Until Thailand has that, it will just be a continuous series of leaders ripping off the people. You can't resolve your legal issues with a donut box full of money.

While it's never good to have the military step in and take power, I thought it was warranted in 2006, and I still today think it was a good thing. .

I have to strongly disagree with your post, if Thaksin violated election laws in the 2001, why did the military wait until 2006 to address your assumptions (realizing maybe you are not more knowledgeable then the legal and judicial system of Thailand).

The elite ordered the military to act as they knew His politics and their domination of the political structure where on a collision course.

The military coup of 2006, and later the non-elected Democrats , represented by Suthep ordered the military to end the Red-shirt demonstrations that likened them to Fascist actions that dominated the political situation in Europe for almost a decade that resulted in ten's of millions of lives lost (23 million in Russia alone) are the root cause of the current unrest.

Thaksin greatest achievement was that of the awakening the less affluent population in the country, to the realization of the "power of their vote" and Thailand will never be the same business as usual that his election forever changed in 2001, be he a hero or a tyrant, the great service he did for the country's "have not's" can not be denied. This was behind the protesters objective of denying the less affluent in the country the right to vote.

The Election will take place as dictated by the royal decree, the yellow's are in the process of 'damage control' Democracy has prevailed in this current challenge, what the future holds, remains unknown!

Cheers

I'm talking about the election in 2006. Not sure what the 2001 election has to do with it?

Non-elected democrats? They didn't win their seats in parliament? Thai voters don't directly elect the PM. The voters elect MPs and then the MPs elect the PM. Abhisit was voted PM by a majority of the MPs. The same way all other PMs are elected in Thailand, and for that matter in all other parliamentary democracies around the world.

What yellows are you talking about? That movement ended about 5 years ago.

Generally in order for democracy to prevail, the first step is to have an election. That first step hasn't even taken place yet.

[chadintheusa]

Brainwashed into believing that any positive development in their area is a result of Thaksin and PTP.

So you reckon that all northerners are stupid, huh? Happily they have the chanting, whistle blowing, independent thinking mob in Bangkok to look after them - once they've finished handing over their savings to a man who has some vague totalitarian concept of a non-elected council, headed by him of course, who will guide the nation. On available evidence, the north seems to be slightly more worldwise.

So a government headed by an non-elected figure is only acceptable if it is the PT being told what to do by Thaksin? Ask the farmers who gave the PT their vote, then gave them their rice whether they feel smart now. You can't say that the reds aren't just as guilty of the same mob mentality. They even need help deciding which color shirt to wear to the polls.

"They even need help deciding which color shirt to wear to the polls".

Quite to the contrary, the RS are clear about it. Wearing a red shirt to go to vote in this election is to get the attention of the no election today, or ever, fascist bulls at the polling stations to charge you with their sticks and clubs.

The is the mangled and twisted definition of civil disobedience presented by Suthep and his backers.

Others call it what it is - civil insurrection to establish a fascist state. And all the while people who originate from mature and sophisticated democracies defend the indefensible and advocate the illegal acts of thugs, goons, henchmen.

"BANGKOK, Jan 31 – Pro-government activists were today discouraged from wearing red clothing to avoid violence before and during the general elections, scheduled for Sunday."

It's interesting how people are trying to label the anti government protesters as thugs, goons, and henchmen when those are the exact tactics that have always been used by the UDD. The UDD developed this sort of street theater and now are upset that anyone else would play the same game. They showed in 2010 that you can unseat the government with protracted street protests. The current group just learned not to get hemmed into one city block where they could be surrounded. The problem is that neither side is worth supporting. The Thaksin regime will continue to loot the public purse if allowed. The anti-government protesters will seek to install a government that is favorable to their interests. I don't believe that this conflict has much to do with democracy at all, its just an excuse to claim legitimacy for a corrupt regime. The protesters know that under the current population distribution that they can't win (unless they come up with even more ludicrous popular policies like paying triple the market value of rice). Since they have the money, the connections, and a sense of entitlement they aren't going to allow the tyranny of the majority. Simple democracy will not advance their agenda. Anyone who has lived through the Thaksin years knows that his way of doing things isn't always democratic, and is always in his own interest. Thai politics is very complicated and has many layers and can't be expected to operate like a western democracy, it just isn't realistic.

[daboyz1]

It's interesting how people are trying to label the anti government protesters as thugs, goons, and henchmen when those are the exact tactics that have always been used by the UDD. The UDD developed this sort of street theater and now are upset that anyone else would play the same game. They showed in 2010 that you can unseat the government with protracted street protests.

That small detail is lost on many.

[Mackie]

It is astonishing that some people here lecture Thais on fascism and poverty while their own home countries are taken over by the very same clique they claim to be fighting in Thailand.

Their posting here is utter tosh. If they cared about poverty and rights, they would fight against back in the USA, if they cared about ever rising fascism, they would fight it back in the USA, if they cared about their fellow servicemen, they would fight for their rights back in the USA (the highest suicide rate ever) etc...etc...So their excuses for posting here are just absolute nonsense and the testament of their hypocrisy.

My message to them is rather simple. Go home cowards, and fight your battles in your own backyard, let Thais sort it out between themselves. In your country there are 50+ million people who are officially poor. Sort out your own house first, then preach the gospel. Losers.

http://www.worldhunger.org/articles/Learn/us_hunger_facts.htm

[LarryBird]

"Even in Isaan some farmers now grumble about late payments for rice delivery, but so far there are few signs of a mass defection from the Shinawatras".

Written by someone who has no idea what is going on.

Written by someone who has no idea what is going on.

I work with small-scale farmers (agricultural extension) and have done so for 15 years. If you think the farmers are "happy" about not being paid you're completely disconnected from the reality.

The statement you quoted said the farmers were NOT going to vote against PTP et al. Both the quote and you indicated "some farmers" now grumble about late payments. Now in your reply immediately above you expand to use the word "happy" to reiterate the mood of the farmers presented in the statement you quote. The statement essentially says no "mass defections."

You might want to leave this where it is now because you're getting convoluted in addition to already being obtuse.

Andy Dufresne is the only one allowed to use obtuse...

[77Dan]

That sleepy, sun-baked village of Baan Dong Yaang in Udon Thani province highlights to me that education is the key to a true democracy. There is also a sun baked village in North Korea that feel that their leader is the savor to them as well. It doesn't mean he is. It means that the propaganda machine is very powerful and their minds are easily molded. Constant Kim Jong Un rhetoric pumped through the airwaves would make Obama love him. It worked on Dennis Rodman!! Admiration is not a sign of being right or being good. Hitler was admired and loved, Mugabe was admired and loved. Thaksin is admired and loved, but like Hitler and Mugabe they are also very very naughty boys.

No one said it would be easy to bring the people back from voting for a toxic cancerous PTP that spreads quicker than a bangkok hooker. That is the journey these poor

gullible uneducated souls must take now; to destroy in their minds the myth that there is no outside. To accept that yes, they have been the fuel to this dictatorship and that they can indeed change their circumstances of being perpetually poor due to welfare populism that will never empower them to stand alone. It is through a deliberate albeit slow effort of changing their minds that is an enabler to a better democratic future.

I would love to visit that sleepy, sun-baked village of Baan Dong Yaang in Udon Thani province and hug that lady. I would have a tear in my eye knowing that the cycle of despair and the perception that they need the govt to survive can be broken. You don't need the govt good lady in Baan Dong Yaang. You can stand on your own 2 feet, but the person you are voting for is stopping you with one hand while giving you hand outs with the other.

Beautiful article that shows the merciless grip on Thailand is strong.

Thai school children are taught that the king is semi-devine, not that Thaksin is god. And the reason North Koreans obey their leader is probably fear more than love. But of course, you are right, education (and freedom of speech) are essential to a real democracy

[kikoman]

I agree with you that this "people's council" seems very suspicious. OTOH the criminal in Dubai will NOT release his grip on power.

I disagree that Thaskin was illegitimately removed in 2006. He won an election that that was boycotted and never received a royal endorsement. From that point forward he was not the legitimate PM of Thailand. It's unfortunate that the police can't/wont do their job in this country, hence the need for the military to step in and do it for them. The people in Isaan have been played by Thaksin. He gave them some good things back in the day, but you don't help people by simply giving them handouts. You need to give them a path to do well for themselves. Anyone that uses a campaign slogan such as "all Thais will be rich in 6 months" is an obvious fraudster. The rice bribe has failed miserably as well. I could go on and on about Thaksin and is failed policies, but they've been documented here 1000s of times.

I wish there was a 3rd choice. Because Thaksin's sister and Suthep's politburo sure don't seem like they'll resolve anything.

People can't look at this through the lens of American politics or even western politics in general. (I'm American by the way) You need to have the rule of law for a functioning democracy, not the rule of law that suits the highest bidder. Until Thailand has that, it will just be a continuous series of leaders ripping off the people. You can't resolve your legal issues with a donut box full of money.

While it's never good to have the military step in and take power, I thought it was warranted in 2006, and I still today think it was a good thing. .

I have to strongly disagree with your post, if Thaksin violated election laws in the 2001, why did the military wait until 2006 to address your assumptions (realizing maybe you are not more knowledgeable then the legal and judicial system of Thailand).

The elite ordered the military to act as they knew His politics and their domination of the political structure where on a collision course.

The military coup of 2006, and later the non-elected Democrats , represented by Suthep ordered the military to end the Red-shirt demonstrations that likened them to Fascist actions that dominated the political situation in Europe for almost a decade that resulted in ten's of millions of lives lost (23 million in Russia alone) are the root cause of the current unrest.

Thaksin greatest achievement was that of the awakening the less affluent population in the country, to the realization of the "power of their vote" and Thailand will never be the same business as usual that his election forever changed in 2001, be he a hero or a tyrant, the great service he did for the country's "have not's" can not be denied. This was behind the protesters objective of denying the less affluent in the country the right to vote.

The Election will take place as dictated by the royal decree, the yellow's are in the process of 'damage control' Democracy has prevailed in this current challenge, what the future holds, remains unknown!

Cheers

I'm talking about the election in 2006. Not sure what the 2001 election has to do with it?

Non-elected democrats? They didn't win their seats in parliament? Thai voters don't directly elect the PM. The voters elect MPs and then the MPs elect the PM. Abhisit was voted PM by a majority of the MPs. The same way all other PMs are elected in Thailand, and for that matter in all other parliamentary democracies around the world.

What yellows are you talking about? That movement ended about 5 years ago.

Generally in order for democracy to prevail, the first step is to have an election. That first step hasn't even taken place yet.

What is this the rewrite of Thai history !01,

The importance of 2001, Thaksin won the election and according to the yellows, began the era of corruption in Thailand with his election victory.

In 2006 election election that the Democrats ,boycotted, which cause a constitutional crises, Thaskin call another round of election for October, 2006, one month before the election the military seized power and cancelled the October Election!

After the military coup of 2006, the Army ran the government until the election of 2007 TRT reformed into the PPP, who won the election. In the 2008 political crisis and the Pad occupied both. airports, PAD declared the only person they would except to lead the Government was Abhisit of the democratic party, The occupation of the airports ended after the Constitutional Court banned the PPP.

In a widely accepted story was that General Anupong Poachinda, leader of the coup, coerced the "friends of Newin group" to endorse the Democrats to lead the coalition, which resulted in Abhisit of the Democrats as PM by a vote of 235-198.

Sad but true!

Cheers

Edited February 1, 2014 by kikoman

[Publicus]

It is astonishing that some people here lecture Thais on fascism and poverty while their own home countries are taken over by the very same clique they claim to be fighting in Thailand.

Their posting here is utter tosh. If they cared about poverty and rights, they would fight against back in the USA, if they cared about ever rising fascism, they would fight it back in the USA, if they cared about their fellow servicemen, they would fight for their rights back in the USA (the highest suicide rate ever) etc...etc...So their excuses for posting here are just absolute nonsense and the testament of their hypocrisy.

My message to them is rather simple. Go home cowards, and fight your battles in your own backyard, let Thais sort it out between themselves. In your country there are 50+ million people who are officially poor. Sort out your own house first, then preach the gospel. Losers.

http://www.worldhunger.org/articles/Learn/us_hunger_facts.htm

Talking about fahlang in Thailand that oppose the onset of fascism here, saying such fahlang and only those fahlang should retreat to their native countries to straighten out their own countries, applies to each and every fahlang, all of us in respect of our own countries, because no democracy or social system is perfect or without major and serious flaws.

The only question all fahlang face in respect of their native countries is how to improve and rectify the naturally occurring flaws that always have existed. In 1966, for instance, when as a uni student I first became deeply involved in the Civil Rights Movement in the United States for equal rights for black skinned Americans, it was inconceivable a black man could be elected president in my lifetime or even in my children's lifetime.

And I expect very soon to see another social movement in which many of us participated for decades come to fruition when a woman is elected president. It's good finally at long last to see one's labors of a lifetime come to fruition, one after another of them. Some others, reactionaries, have always opposed these social movements.

So self-righteous and scolding lectures by the arrogantly self-appointed resolve nothing, throw more heat than light on things, and reflect poorly on those who presume to be in the superior position of issuing arbitrary and summary demands.

Indeed, that people from mature and sophisticated democracies go abroad to advocate fascism is beyond my comprehension. I suppose I should be relieved they're not back home and doing it there. Come to think about it, they know from having found out that their native countries reject both them and their alien social and political philosophies.

[Snig27]

Yes it won Thaksin the election and has made him a hero in the eyes of many of those brainwashed by his network of organizers.

It has also created this current division in Thailand which is killing people and causing so much heartache ... and basically ruining the future.

The political power base is founded on hatred and anger. JUst look at the Red Shirt movement. And use your brain.

Yes indeed Thaksin deserves all the credit for introducing this to ISSAN and for introducing this anger and hatred methodology to the political system in Thailand.

You've really worked hard on this theory that some human beings are inferior to you it seems. These 'brainwashed' people, as defined by you, are they allowed to exist in your new order or will you be re-educating them?

[Snig27]

Brainwashed into believing that any positive development in their area is a result of Thaksin and PTP.

So you reckon that all northerners are stupid, huh? Happily they have the chanting, whistle blowing, independent thinking mob in Bangkok to look after them - once they've finished handing over their savings to a man who has some vague totalitarian concept of a non-elected council, headed by him of course, who will guide the nation. On available evidence, the north seems to be slightly more worldwise.

So a government headed by an non-elected figure is only acceptable if it is the PT being told what to do by Thaksin? Ask the farmers who gave the PT their vote, then gave them their rice whether they feel smart now. You can't say that the reds aren't just as guilty of the same mob mentality. They even need help deciding which color shirt to wear to the polls.

I guess the more important question is whether the people that voted for PT knew that Thaksin had involvement when they voted for the party? So, what do you reckon? Did they know or was it a big surprise? If they knew and accepted that and voted for the party headed by his sister then that's called democracy and absolutely trumps your 'acceptable' question.

PT had a mandate for several years, in the same way Obama does, whether you like his policies or not. If they've messed up, you express that at the booth. The whistle mob have none at all. Not sure of your logic calling people that voted for PT a mob? Because they voted in some numbers for PT?

And the rice farmers? They get their vote tomorrow like everyone else and they get their say. I agree, it's a shitty situation for many of them but I bet a great many will still vote for the party that they think best represents them - like the ones interviewed in the BP a few days back who were upset about the rice payments but said they would still vote PT because at least the party did something for their regions, which was a first.

It's called democracy - I note from your name that you are in the USA. An idea: walk out the door and ask someone how it works. Pretty much anyone will do.

Edited February 1, 2014 by Snig27

[HaleySabai]

Wasn't the 30 Baht Healtrhcare program initiated by the Democrats?

...the Dems, lacking the social-program savy that Thaksin did simply took over the existing programs he developed and laid claim to them. If you really look at it, the Dems did absolutely nothing for the people/country while in office.

By the way, I am NOT on either political-side.

Edited February 1, 2014 by HaleySabai

[Publicus]

"They even need help deciding which color shirt to wear to the polls".

Quite to the contrary, the RS are clear about it. Wearing a red shirt to go to vote in this election is to get the attention of the no election today, or ever, fascist bulls at the polling stations to charge you with their sticks and clubs.

The is the mangled and twisted definition of civil disobedience presented by Suthep and his backers.

Others call it what it is - civil insurrection to establish a fascist state. And all the while people who originate from mature and sophisticated democracies defend the indefensible and advocate the illegal acts of thugs, goons, henchmen.

"BANGKOK, Jan 31 – Pro-government activists were today discouraged from wearing red clothing to avoid violence before and during the general elections, scheduled for Sunday."

It's interesting how people are trying to label the anti government protesters as thugs, goons, and henchmen when those are the exact tactics that have always been used by the UDD. The UDD developed this sort of street theater and now are upset that anyone else would play the same game. They showed in 2010 that you can unseat the government with protracted street protests. The current group just learned not to get hemmed into one city block where they could be surrounded. The problem is that neither side is worth supporting. The Thaksin regime will continue to loot the public purse if allowed. The anti-government protesters will seek to install a government that is favorable to their interests. I don't believe that this conflict has much to do with democracy at all, its just an excuse to claim legitimacy for a corrupt regime. The protesters know that under the current population distribution that they can't win (unless they come up with even more ludicrous popular policies like paying triple the market value of rice). Since they have the money, the connections, and a sense of entitlement they aren't going to allow the tyranny of the majority. Simple democracy will not advance their agenda. Anyone who has lived through the Thaksin years knows that his way of doing things isn't always democratic, and is always in his own interest. Thai politics is very complicated and has many layers and can't be expected to operate like a western democracy, it just isn't realistic.

The 2010 street protesters wanted a new election, nothing more.

As wild as some in 2010 were, the vast majority were seeking democratic goals by democratic means.

The present mob, almost all of them, are hell bent on ending democracy by means of violently preventing the people voting in a legitimate democratic process. Most of us don't yet know how the purposes and means of the present mob will play out, what it involves or what they will most immediately do towards their nefarious ends. What we have seen of the present mob strongly suggests we can expect much worse from them, as if their present militancy isn't awful enough already.

That Thai democracy isn't Western democracy is patently obvious and beggars the point. There's nothing wrong with Thai democracy that more Thai democracy wouldn't improve. The Thais, as with other Eastern democracies, and those elsewhere outside the West, have the inherent sovereign right to define their own democracy and its precepts and ideally to continually improve on them and it.

Parliamentary democracy under the Westminster model, which is the Thai system, is often a cobbled majority of a more dominant party in coalition with another or other parties and which by its nature leaves the minority out in the cold. Yet the Westminster model is predicated on the minority being the official minority, the loyal opposition. The Thai DP has instead morphed itself into the disloyal opposition that supports insurrection by means of an unprecedented street anarchy, ie at the polling stations.

Those among us who lived through the Thaksin years are in fact continuing to live through the Thaksin years. Thaksin had an increasingly tumultuous premiership which was ended illegitimately by a coup d'état, which is a military mutiny against civilian authority, and a military mutiny is never constitutional or by any standard lawful or legal, ie acceptable. South Korea, which experienced one too many of a military mutiny, finally tried its generals in 1996, issuing the death sentence to its military mutineers so hasn't had the hint of a military mutiny since. Thai democracy would be well served to adopt that model and its precedent.

Edited February 1, 2014 by Publicus

[Mentors]

On last election Abhisit sent Bhumjathai Party leader Newin with big cash bags to the isarn. But it didnt work.Bhumjathai lost a lot seats, Democrats didnt win any. Facts.

Edited February 1, 2014 by Mentors