Dzogchen via intrisic Kundalini

[fabianfred]

Trd likes to imply that all he says is wise whilst others are not.

He might not choose to believe in the pali scriptures but to describe them as fiction is the act of a fool..

He implies that I have attachment to ego but I am not the one who is suffering.

He implies that my practice is not good... Whilst his no doubt is perfect.

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[fabianfred]

Pali scriptures are not fairy tales... You might choose choose not to believe them but to write them off as fiction is stupid.

Attacking my practice and knowledge when you know nothing about me is also the mark of a fool.

Sent from my SM-N900 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Jawnie]

Of the three broad types of Buddhism-Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana-Dzogchen belongs to the Vajrayana. Since Thailand (and posters here) are predominately Theravada, the Dzogchen teachings aren't well known. They are extremely advanced and even those who claim to be Dzogchen practitioners, aren't, they just think they are because maybe they've read a lot of books and practiced a lot, even tantric ritual (which aren't accepted in Thailand either). So, this really is not the right forum to ask people about Dzogchen. Equating Dzogchen with the Theravada Nibanna isn't possible as Dzogchen realization is infinitely beyond that but not different. Theravadins will take issue with this statement because they don't think it is Buddhism or Buddha didn't teach Dzogchen and because Theravada believes nirvana is the highest state or the final state and nothing is possible beyond that. Dzogchen says otherwise but is not different.

In Tibetan Buddhism, Dzogchen (which means 'great perfection') is the highest of all teachings. Many Tibetans feel Dzogchen is the most advanced and highest spiritual teachings that exist or to be found. It's probably true if one studies all religions - you simply won't find anything as sophisticated, expansive, and utterly profound as Dzogchen. Even among Tibetans, true Dzogchen practitioners are rare. Among all of the various paths of Buddhism, as the highest teachings, Dzogchen is not even considered to be a 'path' because it is so radically beyond any sort of concept, even the concepts of Buddha, enlightenment, nirvana, etc.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Jawnie

[rockyysdt]

Of the three broad types of Buddhism-Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana-Dzogchen belongs to the Vajrayana. Since Thailand (and posters here) are predominately Theravada, the Dzogchen teachings aren't well known. They are extremely advanced and even those who claim to be Dzogchen practitioners, aren't, they just think they are because maybe they've read a lot of books and practiced a lot, even tantric ritual (which aren't accepted in Thailand either). So, this really is not the right forum to ask people about Dzogchen. Equating Dzogchen with the Theravada Nibanna isn't possible as Dzogchen realization is infinitely beyond that but not different. Theravadins will take issue with this statement because they don't think it is Buddhism or Buddha didn't teach Dzogchen and because Theravada believes nirvana is the highest state or the final state and nothing is possible beyond that. Dzogchen says otherwise but is not different.

In Tibetan Buddhism, Dzogchen (which means 'great perfection') is the highest of all teachings. Many Tibetans feel Dzogchen is the most advanced and highest spiritual teachings that exist or to be found. It's probably true if one studies all religions - you simply won't find anything as sophisticated, expansive, and utterly profound as Dzogchen. Even among Tibetans, true Dzogchen practitioners are rare. Among all of the various paths of Buddhism, as the highest teachings, Dzogchen is not even considered to be a 'path' because it is so radically beyond any sort of concept, even the concepts of Buddha, enlightenment, nirvana, etc.

If real, then it makes Nibanna just another Samsara (impermanent & conditioned).

I thought Nibanna is 'permanent & unconditioned", deathless and infinite.

How can there be something beyond?

[fabianfred]

I have no idea about Dzogchen.... But if nibbana is good enough for the Buddha... It's good enough for me.

The ego is limitless so there are always those who want to be better than the best, higher than the highest..

Sent from my SM-N900 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[trd]

There is nothing beyond nibbana. There cannot be anything beyond complete liberation which nibbana is.

[trd]

I think theravada is probably the closest to what Buddha taught. The grandly elaborate Tibetan tantric visualisation practices are getting well away from the basics as far as I'm concerned.

[RandomSand]

The ego is limitless so there are always those who want to be better than the best, higher than the highest..

Classic

[RandomSand]

Of the three broad types of Buddhism-Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana-Dzogchen belongs to the Vajrayana. Since Thailand (and posters here) are predominately Theravada, the Dzogchen teachings aren't well known. They are extremely advanced and even those who claim to be Dzogchen practitioners, aren't, they just think they are because maybe they've read a lot of books and practiced a lot, even tantric ritual (which aren't accepted in Thailand either). So, this really is not the right forum to ask people about Dzogchen. Equating Dzogchen with the Theravada Nibanna isn't possible as Dzogchen realization is infinitely beyond that but not different. Theravadins will take issue with this statement because they don't think it is Buddhism or Buddha didn't teach Dzogchen and because Theravada believes nirvana is the highest state or the final state and nothing is possible beyond that. Dzogchen says otherwise but is not different.

In Tibetan Buddhism, Dzogchen (which means 'great perfection') is the highest of all teachings. Many Tibetans feel Dzogchen is the most advanced and highest spiritual teachings that exist or to be found. It's probably true if one studies all religions - you simply won't find anything as sophisticated, expansive, and utterly profound as Dzogchen. Even among Tibetans, true Dzogchen practitioners are rare. Among all of the various paths of Buddhism, as the highest teachings, Dzogchen is not even considered to be a 'path' because it is so radically beyond any sort of concept, even the concepts of Buddha, enlightenment, nirvana, etc.

You sound like know a thing or two so thanks for getting involved.

I'm really new to Buddhism as a religion, and I've been reading Buddhist material with the thought in my head,.. that "the great perfection" was the aim of any successful mediation!

Now you say that nirvana is not the same as the great perfection, and indeed, I read on wikipedia that nirvana is ultimately an illusion in the same manner that samsara is.

Would anyone care to estimate, perhaps someone who has met and talked personally with many other advanced practitioners, would anyone be so kind as to estimate how common the experience of this "great perfection" actually is ?

For example; take 1000 Buddhists who have regularly meditated for more than several years... How many of those Buddhists would say they have properly experienced this "great perfection" that's the central theme of all Dzogchen teachings ?

edit; To put it in perspective for a newbie like myself, it would be very helpful to *also* estimate the how common the state of nirvana is (for the same sample group).

Edited February 8, 2014 by RandomSand

[Jawnie]

Of the three broad types of Buddhism-Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana-Dzogchen belongs to the Vajrayana. Since Thailand (and posters here) are predominately Theravada, the Dzogchen teachings aren't well known. They are extremely advanced and even those who claim to be Dzogchen practitioners, aren't, they just think they are because maybe they've read a lot of books and practiced a lot, even tantric ritual (which aren't accepted in Thailand either). So, this really is not the right forum to ask people about Dzogchen. Equating Dzogchen with the Theravada Nibanna isn't possible as Dzogchen realization is infinitely beyond that but not different. Theravadins will take issue with this statement because they don't think it is Buddhism or Buddha didn't teach Dzogchen and because Theravada believes nirvana is the highest state or the final state and nothing is possible beyond that. Dzogchen says otherwise but is not different.

In Tibetan Buddhism, Dzogchen (which means 'great perfection') is the highest of all teachings. Many Tibetans feel Dzogchen is the most advanced and highest spiritual teachings that exist or to be found. It's probably true if one studies all religions - you simply won't find anything as sophisticated, expansive, and utterly profound as Dzogchen. Even among Tibetans, true Dzogchen practitioners are rare. Among all of the various paths of Buddhism, as the highest teachings, Dzogchen is not even considered to be a 'path' because it is so radically beyond any sort of concept, even the concepts of Buddha, enlightenment, nirvana, etc.

If real, then it makes Nibanna just another Samsara (impermanent & conditioned).

I thought Nibanna is 'permanent & unconditioned", deathless and infinite.

How can there be something beyond?

That is the point. Theravada says there is deathlessness and unconditionedlessness. Dzogchen goes beyond that and even those who have attained deathlessness and an unconditioned state are still to be trained. It is sort of like 'unpacking' deathlessness and unconditioned. It is way beyond me to understand or explain but those beings who attain nirvana aren't finished, so say Dzogchen teachings. And there are teachers for them. This is all way, way beyond any of us.

[Jawnie]

Read any books by Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, especially "As it Is."

Of the three broad types of Buddhism-Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana-Dzogchen belongs to the Vajrayana. Since Thailand (and posters here) are predominately Theravada, the Dzogchen teachings aren't well known. They are extremely advanced and even those who claim to be Dzogchen practitioners, aren't, they just think they are because maybe they've read a lot of books and practiced a lot, even tantric ritual (which aren't accepted in Thailand either). So, this really is not the right forum to ask people about Dzogchen. Equating Dzogchen with the Theravada Nibanna isn't possible as Dzogchen realization is infinitely beyond that but not different. Theravadins will take issue with this statement because they don't think it is Buddhism or Buddha didn't teach Dzogchen and because Theravada believes nirvana is the highest state or the final state and nothing is possible beyond that. Dzogchen says otherwise but is not different.

In Tibetan Buddhism, Dzogchen (which means 'great perfection') is the highest of all teachings. Many Tibetans feel Dzogchen is the most advanced and highest spiritual teachings that exist or to be found. It's probably true if one studies all religions - you simply won't find anything as sophisticated, expansive, and utterly profound as Dzogchen. Even among Tibetans, true Dzogchen practitioners are rare. Among all of the various paths of Buddhism, as the highest teachings, Dzogchen is not even considered to be a 'path' because it is so radically beyond any sort of concept, even the concepts of Buddha, enlightenment, nirvana, etc.

You sound like know a thing or two so thanks for getting involved.

I'm really new to Buddhism as a religion, and I've been reading Buddhist material with the thought in my head,.. that "the great perfection" was the aim of any successful mediation!

Now you say that nirvana is not the same as the great perfection, and indeed, I read on wikipedia that nirvana is ultimately an illusion in the same manner that samsara is.

Would anyone care to estimate, perhaps someone who has met and talked personally with many other advanced practitioners, would anyone be so kind as to estimate how common the experience of this "great perfection" actually is ?

For example; take 1000 Buddhists who have regularly meditated for more than several years... How many of those Buddhists would say they have properly experienced this "great perfection" that's the central theme of all Dzogchen teachings ?

edit; To put it in perspective for a newbie like myself, it would be very helpful to *also* estimate the how common the state of nirvana is (for the same sample group).

[fabianfred]

Of the three broad types of Buddhism-Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana-Dzogchen belongs to the Vajrayana. Since Thailand (and posters here) are predominately Theravada, the Dzogchen teachings aren't well known. They are extremely advanced and even those who claim to be Dzogchen practitioners, aren't, they just think they are because maybe they've read a lot of books and practiced a lot, even tantric ritual (which aren't accepted in Thailand either). So, this really is not the right forum to ask people about Dzogchen. Equating Dzogchen with the Theravada Nibanna isn't possible as Dzogchen realization is infinitely beyond that but not different. Theravadins will take issue with this statement because they don't think it is Buddhism or Buddha didn't teach Dzogchen and because Theravada believes nirvana is the highest state or the final state and nothing is possible beyond that. Dzogchen says otherwise but is not different.

In Tibetan Buddhism, Dzogchen (which means 'great perfection') is the highest of all teachings. Many Tibetans feel Dzogchen is the most advanced and highest spiritual teachings that exist or to be found. It's probably true if one studies all religions - you simply won't find anything as sophisticated, expansive, and utterly profound as Dzogchen. Even among Tibetans, true Dzogchen practitioners are rare. Among all of the various paths of Buddhism, as the highest teachings, Dzogchen is not even considered to be a 'path' because it is so radically beyond any sort of concept, even the concepts of Buddha, enlightenment, nirvana, etc.

If real, then it makes Nibanna just another Samsara (impermanent & conditioned).

I thought Nibanna is 'permanent & unconditioned", deathless and infinite.

How can there be something beyond?

That is the point. Theravada says there is deathlessness and unconditionedlessness. Dzogchen goes beyond that and even those who have attained deathlessness and an unconditioned state are still to be trained. It is sort of like 'unpacking' deathlessness and unconditioned. It is way beyond me to understand or explain but those beings who attain nirvana aren't finished, so say Dzogchen teachings. And there are teachers for them. This is all way, way beyond any of us.

I have long thought that it is rather like this... we are in a 3 dimensional world and think of time as the 4th dimension, but could not comprehend a 5th or 50th or 500 dimensional existence. Buddhas and Arahants who have left behind rebirth in our 3 dimensional world still exist, but their form of existence is beyond our understanding whilst we are still mired in rebirth in our 3 dimensions. If we attain Nibbana then it is like climbing to a higher point on a mountain from which our view is different and general understanding of the way things are is better.

Onwards and upwards.

The Buddha would not try to confuse people, so only explain about the next step on the ladder...no need to mention any further...

[weary]

Just a note from the Ego.

Kundalini. Not kunalindi.

[Jawnie]

There is nothing beyond nibbana. There cannot be anything beyond complete liberation which nibbana is.

Frankly, I don't think you are qualified to make such a statement. In any case, there is a larger context. Thervada teaches that one follows the Dharma and practices until one reaches nirvana or extinction of the self and the end of rebirth. That is Theravada. Mahayana, on the other hand, says that practitioners postpone achieving nirvana or extinction in order to remain in samsaric existence to help other beings reach nirvana. They do this by taking the Bodhisattva Vow. A Theravadin who has never heard this or is never presented with this teaching will assume that nirvana and extinction are the end. Now, I've heard Theravadins claim that it is nothing more than a fetter or ego-grasping to want to stay in samsara. The is exactly opposite of the meaning and misses the point entirely. The point is that great compassion for others is practiced and perfected in the Mahayana rather that the practitioner simply achieving nirvana and exiting samsara leaving everyone else behind. It's not a fetter, it is compassion and it makes all the difference.

Further, according the the Mahayana, the nirvana of the Theravada is incomplete. How is it incomplete? Because the person has not completely cleans and purified more subtle obscuration of the self and that Theravada nirvana is incomplete because it does not engender the same great compassion of the Mahayana. Theravadins generally don't accept the Mahayana because they think it was not taught by the Buddha but there are ample authenticated texts, masters, and traditions that say otherwise. The dichotomy of these schools (including the Vajrayana, which isn't suitable for many Mahayanists) is not an indication of false sets of teaches. Rather, it is an indication that teachings exist for all types of beings who have differing capacities and capabilities.

[trd]

Thank you for that very clear explanation. Just to add another view. In advaita vedanta terms, the idea of postponing nirvana to help others wouldn't make sense because there are no others. The sense of other is just a manifestation of maya. Also, liberation is never totally complete while in a body because total disidentification with ego would not enable the body to function. It is called laisha vidya which means a faint level of ignorance remains until the body is discarded.

[camerata]

Small Boat, Great Mountain - Ajahn Amaro

Ajahn Amaro reflects on the teachings of The Natural Great Perfection from the Dzogchen teachings and compares it with those familiar in the Pali Canon and in the Thai Forest Tradition.

http://forestsanghapublications.org/viewBook.php?id=28&ref=deb

[rockyysdt]

Thervada teaches that one follows the Dharma and practices until one reaches nirvana or extinction of the self and the end of rebirth. That is Theravada. Mahayana, on the other hand, says that practitioners postpone achieving nirvana or extinction in order to remain in samsaric existence to help other beings reach nirvana. They do this by taking the Bodhisattva Vow. A Theravadin who has never heard this or is never presented with this teaching will assume that nirvana and extinction are the end. Now, I've heard Theravadins claim that it is nothing more than a fetter or ego-grasping to want to stay in samsara.

There is a third possibility.

Nibanna is just a delusion (a puff of smoke), the last refuge for the "I', after which there is nothing on the other side of the curtain, because there is nothing.

Of course while there is ego, Nibanna can never be reached.

This option suggests re birth as a moment to moment thing rather than life to life and the Awakening is purely that.

To wake up from the delusion of superstition, and attachment to greed, aversion, & delusion.

To be free to experience life at its very best.

A life immersed in the deepest levels of awareness.

Edited February 10, 2014 by rockyysdt

[trd]

That's a good way of looking at it. Rebirth and death as the rise and fall of mind from moment to moment superimposed on the screen of unchanging awareness which is unconditioned and transcends suffering.

[rockyysdt]

That's a good way of looking at it. Rebirth and death as the rise and fall of mind from moment to moment superimposed on the screen of unchanging awareness which is unconditioned and transcends suffering.

When we take a closer look at what the Buddha taught in his earliest works many things point to this.

Things such as:

• Refusing to disclose what Nibanna is.
• Lampooning Brahman by placing him in Samsara with the rest of us.
• Indicating that Nibanna is the last puff of smoke, and there is nothing to be found on the other side of the curtain.
• The contradiction of Ego seeking a permanent place in Nibanna.
• The emphatic position of no soul, spirit to be found inside - then what entity is common between the linage of lives and ultimately that which becomes Awakened?

The difference between Hinduism and Buddhism is that with the first, ones higher self unites with Atman/Brahman/God in the permanent & unconditioned.

With the latter there is no higher self.

All self is an illusion.

One conclusion must be that Awakening is to become free of delusion, greed, & aversion.

To "be", our natural state which we currently have no awareness.

That which is already there but we do not see.

That which is hidden by the veil of the mind with its constant chatter and alignment with the illusion of Ego as our permanent self.

Thus have I heard:

The end of the world can never

Be reached by walking. However,

Without having reached the world’s end

There is no release from suffering.

I declare that it is in this fathom—

long carcass, with its perceptions

and thoughts, that there is the world, the

origin of the world, the cessation of the

world, and the path leading to the cessation of the world.

(Anguttara Nikaya 4:45)

Once we die this fathom long carcass rots and disappears.

Edited February 10, 2014 by rockyysdt

[RandomSand]

Excellent post, rocky. The more I read it the more I like it

I did write a lengthy reply but I have cut it down to just this.

Thanks.

Edited February 10, 2014 by RandomSand

[RandomSand]

Thus have I heard:

The end of the world can never

Be reached by walking. However,

Without having reached the world’s end

There is no release from suffering.

I declare that it is in this fathom—

long carcass, with its perceptions

and thoughts, that there is the world, the

origin of the world, the cessation of the

world, and the path leading to the cessation of the world.

(Anguttara Nikaya 4:45)

This Sutra is sweeter than honey.

Whose translation is this ?

Thanks!!!

Edited February 10, 2014 by RandomSand

[RandomSand]

I declare that it is in this fathom—

long carcass, with its perceptions

and thoughts, that there is the world, the

origin of the world, the cessation of the

world, and the path leading to the cessation of the world.

(Anguttara Nikaya 4:45)

Once we die this fathom long carcass rots and disappears.

I read the fathom long carcass is the ground below heaven. If you're familiar with Daoism then you can take the carcass to be the pure Yin.

Oh yes, a fathom is 6 foot. So yeah, Rots it does !

Still there's a profound meaning in that text regarding the origin and cessation of the world.

Edited February 10, 2014 by RandomSand

[rockyysdt]

I declare that it is in this fathom—

long carcass, with its perceptions

and thoughts, that there is the world, the

origin of the world, the cessation of the

world, and the path leading to the cessation of the world.

(Anguttara Nikaya 4:45)

Once we die this fathom long carcass rots and disappears.

I read the fathom long carcass is the ground below heaven. If you're familiar with Daoism then you can take the carcass to be the pure Yin.

Oh yes, a fathom is 6 foot. So yeah, Rots it does !

Still there's a profound meaning in that text regarding the origin and cessation of the world.

It can be a dilemma (crossroad).

A fathom long carcass represents our body, and within it lies the origin & cessation of the world, then

"when one is born this explains the origin of ones world" &

"without a fathom long carcass ( body) for one there is no world" &

"when one dies this explains the cessation of ones world".

This aligns with re birth being moment to moment & awakening being the best state one can achieve (within this fathom long carcass).

Awakening needn't involve immortality to be profound.

[RandomSand]

Seems like you can't accept rebirth and are trying to place infinite occurrences, or a finite quanta, of rebirths within one single human lifetime.

___________________________________

Will somebody wear me to the fair?
Will a lady pin me in her hair?
Will a child find me by a stream?
Kiss my petals and weave me through a dream.

For all of these simple things and much more a flower was born
It blooms to spread love and joy faith and hope to people forlorn

Inside every man lives the seed of a flower
If he looks within he finds beauty and power

Ring all the bells sing and tell the people that be everywhere that the flower has come
Light up the sky with your prayers of gladness and rejoice for the darkness is gone
Throw off your fears let your heart beat freely at the sign that a new time is born


Minnie Riperton - Les Fleur Lyrics | MetroLyrics

___________________________________

[fabianfred]

I declare that it is in this fathom—

long carcass, with its perceptions

and thoughts, that there is the world, the

origin of the world, the cessation of the

world, and the path leading to the cessation of the world.

(Anguttara Nikaya 4:45)

Once we die this fathom long carcass rots and disappears.

I read the fathom long carcass is the ground below heaven. If you're familiar with Daoism then you can take the carcass to be the pure Yin.

Oh yes, a fathom is 6 foot. So yeah, Rots it does !

Still there's a profound meaning in that text regarding the origin and cessation of the world.

It can be a dilemma (crossroad).

A fathom long carcass represents our body, and within it lies the origin & cessation of the world, then

"when one is born this explains the origin of ones world" &

"without a fathom long carcass ( body) for one there is no world" &

"when one dies this explains the cessation of ones world".

This aligns with re birth being moment to moment & awakening being the best state one can achieve (within this fathom long carcass).

Awakening needn't involve immortality to be profound.

You're just making the statement fit your own beliefs...

We can convince ourselves of anything if we try...but that doesn't make them true.

[rockyysdt]

I declare that it is in this fathom—

long carcass, with its perceptions

and thoughts, that there is the world, the

origin of the world, the cessation of the

world, and the path leading to the cessation of the world.

(Anguttara Nikaya 4:45)

Once we die this fathom long carcass rots and disappears.

I read the fathom long carcass is the ground below heaven. If you're familiar with Daoism then you can take the carcass to be the pure Yin.

Oh yes, a fathom is 6 foot. So yeah, Rots it does !

Still there's a profound meaning in that text regarding the origin and cessation of the world.

It can be a dilemma (crossroad).

A fathom long carcass represents our body, and within it lies the origin & cessation of the world, then

"when one is born this explains the origin of ones world" &

"without a fathom long carcass ( body) for one there is no world" &

"when one dies this explains the cessation of ones world".

This aligns with re birth being moment to moment & awakening being the best state one can achieve (within this fathom long carcass).

Awakening needn't involve immortality to be profound.

You're just making the statement fit your own beliefs...

We can convince ourselves of anything if we try...but that doesn't make them true.

Hi Fred.

It's not my belief.

I call the situation a crossroad.

There is more than one possibility.

Anyone attaching themselves to either might be wrong.

The one thing we know absolutely is that we exist.

Lets live this life to its maximum potential free of aversion, greed & delusion.

The other possibility is that there is a higher self (although the Buddha himself has said that there is not).

If you live your life with attachment to this you're in danger of failing to maximise your potential in this life.

"He who knows, does not speak. He who speaks, does not know."

The Buddha said that those who reside with Brahman/Atman are still in Samsara.

A Monk taught that if you think you are Awakened, ask yourself "Am I Awakened?". If there is an "I or Me", then one is not.

Naturally we must keep an open mind as attaching to only one or the other is being closed minded.

Lastly, if we do attach to only one possibility, what is it about our Ego/Conditioning which causes such an attachment?

Edited February 12, 2014 by rockyysdt

[RandomSand]

The Tao Te Ching by Lao Tzu (Translated by Stephen Mitchell)

The tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao

The name that can be named is not the eternal Name.

The unnamable is the eternally real.

Naming is the origin of all particular things.

Free from desire, you realize the mystery.

Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.

Yet mystery and manifestations arise from the same source.

This source is called darkness. Darkness within darkness.

The gateway to all understanding.

[rockyysdt]

The Tao Te Ching by Lao Tzu (Translated by Stephen Mitchell)

The tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao

The name that can be named is not the eternal Name.

The unnamable is the eternally real.

Naming is the origin of all particular things.

Free from desire, you realize the mystery.

Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.

Yet mystery and manifestations arise from the same source.

This source is called darkness. Darkness within darkness.

The gateway to all understanding.

Precisely.

Something we can experience through stillness of mind.

[RandomSand]

I declare that it is in this fathom—

long carcass, with its perceptions

and thoughts, that there is the world, the

origin of the world, the cessation of the

world, and the path leading to the cessation of the world.

(Anguttara Nikaya 4:45)

Once we die this fathom long carcass rots and disappears.

I read the fathom long carcass is the ground below heaven. If you're familiar with Daoism then you can take the carcass to be the pure Yin.

Oh yes, a fathom is 6 foot. So yeah, Rots it does !

Still there's a profound meaning in that text regarding the origin and cessation of the world.

It can be a dilemma (crossroad).

A fathom long carcass represents our body, and within it lies the origin & cessation of the world, then

"when one is born this explains the origin of ones world" &

"without a fathom long carcass ( body) for one there is no world" &

"when one dies this explains the cessation of ones world".

This aligns with re birth being moment to moment & awakening being the best state one can achieve (within this fathom long carcass).

Awakening needn't involve immortality to be profound.

Another way to look at it is; one exists within the state, and the state exists within oneself.

Separation = samsara (conception). wrong thinking = maya (deception).

These are concepts to explain the nature of mundane reality.

But here's the kicker; the nature of mundane reality is only possible because of the manifestation of these very same concepts !

How to understand this intellectually? Impossible! That's what Zen is for!

Can the cognisized cognisize itself ? - Yes! - You are doing it now !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[RandomSand]

The Tao Te Ching by Lao Tzu (Translated by Stephen Mitchell)

The tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao

The name that can be named is not the eternal Name.

The unnamable is the eternally real.

Naming is the origin of all particular things.

Free from desire, you realize the mystery.

Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.

Yet mystery and manifestations arise from the same source.

This source is called darkness. Darkness within darkness.

The gateway to all understanding.

Precisely.

Something we can experience through stillness of mind.

this is debatable.

Can the water know that it is wet ?