Election Special – How did we end up here? From Thaksin to today

[Why ask]

RT@veen_NT:

Rocker Sek Loso at a polling booth (via @Buttree_TRnews ) เสก โลโซ ที่หน่วยเลือกตั้งที่ 33 pic.twitter.com/GFAZ3842MI

Looks spliffingly happy.

LOOKS like an asshol_e, uneducated boy to me...... but then again, if you're cool on guitar in Thailand you can go to the very top, especially in the north.

If with an impure mind a person speaks then who's the asshol_e?

The person who didn't understand their words, of course.

[siampolee]

The problem is that Thaksins past has becomes Thailand and subsequently Yinglucks future.

[lostinsurin]

RT@veen_NT:

Rocker Sek Loso at a polling booth (via @Buttree_TRnews ) เสก โลโซ ที่หน่วยเลือกตั้งที่ 33 pic.twitter.com/GFAZ3842MI

Looks spliffingly happy.

LOOKS like an asshol_e, uneducated boy to me...... but then again, if you're cool on guitar in Thailand you can go to the very top, especially in the north.

If with an impure mind a person speaks then who's the asshol_e?

The person who didn't understand their words, of course.

So in other words you! Thanks for clearing that up. And i thought you were an uneducated boy from the south.

Thanks and regards anyway, but I would choose words and moto's more carefully before attacking others, being the good buddist you are, well according to your moto.

[Why ask]

So in other words you! Thanks for clearing that up. And i thought you were an uneducated boy from the south.

Thanks and regards anyway, but I would choose words and moto's more carefully before attacking others, being the good buddist you are, well according to your moto.

moto or motto? ......... motto was not spoken by me.... it's simply to be observed.. .. ..... I live nowhere near Hat Yai thanks.

Think you may where I am from...... is there a divide?

Edited February 2, 2014 by Why ask

[tingtongteesood]

on a hindsight - her mistake was resigning and dissolving parliament, believing, that it would diffuse situation and that opposition will stick to their word. However, Democrats decided not to contest an election and thus pulling all their power behind suthep. She had a chance to use police and military to remove protesters from the streets, prevent bangkok shutdown and protection for polling stations, voting papers and boxes.

still, it's not an end for her - she will be elected pm for the second term. And it's not end for thaksin.

thailand needs reforms holded up for a generation. Reds and thaksin will play a significant role in it, no matter how the nearest future plays out

I disagree, I think this is the beginning of the end for the clan of crooks and cronies headed by the cowardly spiteful fugitive

[tingtongteesood]

From Thaksin to today?

This dilemma has not started with Thaksin and it will not end with him.

Whilst that is true, he is a very VERY large symptom of the sickness and one that needs to be treated before it will go away and the patient can get better....

[tingtongteesood]

From Thaksin to today?

This dilemma has not started with Thaksin and it will not end with him.

What? You expect the PDRC and its supporters to abandon a simplistic explanation for a problem that they shared in creating?

Suthep talks of the evil of corruption and yet there he is the poster boy for all that is rotten in Thailand

I don't think your position, even if correct, will be too popular.

Oh come on, that's rubbish and you know it. Taksin's corruption makes anybody else in Thailand look like a complete amateur in comparison including Suteb !

[tingtongteesood]

on a hindsight - her mistake was resigning and dissolving parliament, believing, that it would diffuse situation and that opposition will stick to their word. However, Democrats decided not to contest an election and thus pulling all their power behind suthep. She had a chance to use police and military to remove protesters from the streets, prevent bangkok shutdown and protection for polling stations, voting papers and boxes.

still, it's not an end for her - she will be elected pm for the second term

Crazy isn't it ??? if then she is elected the courts will most likely take her out with most of the PTP. So what happens then ????

Waste of public money Thailand is short of, What will Issan do when this lot is out ???? who will they vote for the ghosts ???

This democracy thing seems to be quite an issue for some here - a complicated concept. What would you rather do? Maybe install a council appointed by a deeply corrupt former deputy PM with worse democratic credentials than PTP and a human rights record that's as dark as Thaksin? Maybe she should not have called an election? But the problem with that is that it was democratically probably the right thing to do given the vocal dissatisfaction voiced by the whistle blowing Bangkok minority - when there is doubt you go for a mandate, you ask the people. Tricky concept I know, but it works worldwide hence the universal support for this election from the international community. What else would you suggest? Most of Thailand sees Suthep as a raving, dangerous nutter. Given that (and argue it if you want but it's a fact), then maybe he might not be the best person to take control - if we are to avoid a civil war. And he has zero mandate to do so.

Nope, the smart thing to do is to call an election and get the people to decide (and Thailand is not THAT broke - unless Moody's have it wrong). The dumb, dumb, thing was for the opposition to abstain. By doing so they no longer have a right to collectively call themselves anything in a democracy. The Dems have politically ceased to exist today. Idiots.

And even if YS and many PT MPs face legal sanction, the list then ensures that others move up. You are stuck with them.

If Suthep was a band they'd be called The Failures and the past few months would be their Greatest Hits culminating in today.

First off, trying to be condescending to the other members here will not make you many friends.

Care to back your completely opinion based vitriolic biased rhetoric with the odd fact or two ? Maybe a source here and there that could back you up ?

Maybe install a council appointed by a deeply corrupt former deputy PM with worse democratic credentials than PTP and a human rights record that's as dark as Thaksin?

By corrupt, I expect you are talking about that land deal and the oil palm thing, woooo, whoopteedo, 2 things that he has never faced charges for unlike Taksin the convicted fugitive. Care to give us your evidence that he did anything wrong ? 6 people who were 'rich' benefitted out of over 400 in the land thing, maybe a mistake or two was made, maybe corruption, maybe Suteb involved and maybe locals who were dealing with it. Show us the proof ?

Again with the palm oil thing, I have only seen rumour and speculation and no proof whatsoever. Show us the proof ?

As for 'worse democratic credentials', he has not tried to whitewash 25000+ crimes, pissed on the constitution and ignored the rulings of the constitutional courts, issued a diplomatic passport in unending efforts to nepotistically help a relative who is a convicted fugitive on the run - how in the least is any of this remotely democratic ? Care to try and justify this ? Explain to me where in any definition of democracy any of this is acceptable ?

As for 'human rights record' I assume you are talking about the 'crackdown' in 2010. The rioters killed many people before the 'crackdown' happened and they were told what would happen if they contiuued rioting, they decideed to die in the name of the fugitive was better than going home - up to them. Nobody held guns to their heads and forced them to stay. I feel sorrow for the many people going about their daily business who were hurt, those who had to close their businesses as a result of the reds actions, those who had buildings burnt down by the reds, the reporters who were doing their job, the soldiers that were trying to protect the people and the nurse at the temple ( which incidentally had many weapons stashed inside it at the time and reds shooting at the soldiers too no doubt ) these deaths should never have happened. As for the rest, they made a choice to riot against the army who were forced to take action to regain control. None of that is Suteb's fault and the bs murder charges were politically motivated to make him and Abhisit agree to the amnesty bill to absolve themselves. Guess they have more ethics than the PT fools gave them credit for and decided to fight it instead of running away like the girly cowardly fugitive did.

As for Thailand not being that broke, it's credit rating is 2 levels above 'junk' as reported in the papers, so not exactly great and that was before the protests started so don't try and blame it on anyone apart from PT, the rating is bad because of the rice scam....

[3NUMBAS]

its not rocket science they were better off under Thaksin than the robber barons in BKK .he leveled the playing field but the robber barons don't like it one bit

[truk39]

From Thaksin to today?

This dilemma has not started with Thaksin and it will not end with him.

The protests since 2005 have mainly been about or heavily involved Thaksin. It would be a huge step towards the end if Thaksin and his family stepped away from politics.

The protests since 2005 have mainly been a result of the opposition refusing to let democracy work. In 2005, TRT won everywhere except the south, they even won huge majorities in Bangkok. Thaksin made tactical errors in 2005 by immediately burning bridges with his previous coalition partners: Sondhi and Luang Ta Maha Bua being key as they had the juice to start the anti-thaksin propaganda machine. Think back to 2005, other than typical crony-ism and standard policy corruption that goes w/o the bat of an eyelash in western democracies (fema, haliburton, and enron come to mind in the US), what truly horrible things worthy of a coup did Thaksin do? Can you imagine how peaceful it would've been w/o an unreasonable coup that ousted the most popular politician in Thai history? Even in 2005 there were frameworks within the constitution to democratically work against the majority party, but the myopic opposition refused to play the long-game.

The opposition oft touts Thaksin as bankrupting thailand through populist policy, well, how has that changed by this coup tactic? How much did the coup, and the resulting 75% increase in defense spending cost the nation? Did the coup have any effect on removing populist policies?

Since the coup, Thaksin and his team have looked horrible...Self exile (can you imagine his popularity if he just served his 2yr sentence?), 2010 fanning flames via skype, "Thaksin speaks..." slogan, fishy happenings around amnesty bill, fishy happenings around senate composition bill, rice pledging, etc.. It definitely does not seem that the PTP have been positive for Thailand, but still was another force out really necessary? How about the PDRC draft a referendum, gather the necessary signatures from the citizenry, and send it to parliament? Then see what PTP does, if they break rules to keep the referendum at bay, then work for a no confidence debate, if these measures would have been at least attempted, then there would be far greater support for the opposition side. But no, they just bypass all democratic avenues and jump straight to "tear it down and build it back up".

By refusing to allow the arduously slow gears of democracy to work, the Anti-Thaksin crowd have just solidified the divide and ensured themselves and Thailand an even more difficult road in the future.

[whybother]

its not rocket science they were better off under Thaksin than the robber barons in BKK .he leveled the playing field but the robber barons don't like it one bit

They were better off during a global economic boom. Thaksin was just lucky enough to be PM at the time.

Sent from my phone ...

[muchogra]

Don't ever underestimate a Thai female! Thai females are the hindlegs of elephants for ages, that is, until Western cultures invade and begin to make them the same as in the West!

[3NUMBAS]

you have to view Thaksin like Robin Hood he swiped the ill gotten gains from the BKK elite (read evil Sheriff of Nottingham etc ) and dispersed them to the poor ,so thats pretty laudable really .

he kept some back for himself but basically the poor serfs are better off because of him ,better than they would be otherwise

Edited February 2, 2014 by 3NUMBAS

[MaiChai]

This is a very truthful article.

Where does Thailand go from here????

That seems to be the big question.

I think most here will agree that Thailand must be Shinawatra free.

The family must remove itself from politics and the political arena.

The UDD must take a look at what the PTP promised, what was delivered and whether or not it helped people.

The 300 Baht law cost jobs, the Rice pledge scheme created nothing but heart ache. The Flood help was non existent and the new plan only catered to those that would make money.

The DEMS on the other hand except for bitching and moaning have provided o insight into what they would do to make it better so we must assume that the people that say it is only there for those that have money are correct.

The way forward is for ALL parties even the small Ones

I agree. I don't support the argument that Thailand is corrupt and always will be. I do believe most educated, middle class Thais want a corruption free and fairer society, and that is what the current demonstrations are about.

Thus begs the question: what do Issan people want and why do they support this government. All Issan people don't ; talk to the educated middle class in Khon Kaen, Udon, even Chiang Mai and you will find alot of them support the protests. So why do the rest support this government? Its got to be lack of free thinking, a lot of propaganda, bullying by village head men, low education and dare i say brain washing?

I remember the time before Taksin came to power. Back then society did seem much fairer.

[ginjag]

This is a very truthful article.

Where does Thailand go from here????

That seems to be the big question.

I think most here will agree that Thailand must be Shinawatra free.

The family must remove itself from politics and the political arena.

The UDD must take a look at what the PTP promised, what was delivered and whether or not it helped people.

The 300 Baht law cost jobs, the Rice pledge scheme created nothing but heart ache. The Flood help was non existent and the new plan only catered to those that would make money.

The DEMS on the other hand except for bitching and moaning have provided o insight into what they would do to make it better so we must assume that the people that say it is only there for those that have money are correct.

The way forward is for ALL parties even the small Ones

I agree. I don't support the argument that Thailand is corrupt and always will be. I do believe most educated, middle class Thais want a corruption free and fairer society, and that is what the current demonstrations are about.

Thus begs the question: what do Issan people want and why do they support this government. All Issan people don't ; talk to the educated middle class in Khon Kaen, Udon, even Chiang Mai and you will find alot of them support the protests. So why do the rest support this government? Its got to be lack of free thinking, a lot of propaganda, bullying by village head men, low education and dare i say brain washing?

I remember the time before Taksin came to power. Back then society did seem much fairer.

I support the argument that Thailand IS corrupt.-----and it will take more than a generation to wipe most of it out. It is inbuilt into most government officials who will never change their spots, until death. There maybe some that will moderate or succumb to pressure but given a slight glimmer of doing something on the side they will.

It is awfully difficult once a child becomes a thief to change his/her ways.

[Issangeorge]

I posted this in the general section, but was told by the monitor to post it in the news section. Unfortunately I cannot start a new topic in this section, so I will coat tail onto this one. I've spent some time writing these out and thought some people would be interested in them. I would love to here other peoples ideas. We spend far too much time criticizing one side or the other without offering solutions. Well these are some proposals that might be helpful. If a monitor would like to post this as separate topic, it would be much appreciated.

Political Reform.doc

[Snig27]

From Thaksin to today?

This dilemma has not started with Thaksin and it will not end with him.

Maybe not but he put the petrol on the fire to create much of this. out of the kindness of his warm heart for the poor people of Thailand---or his bank.??

Have you read any Thai history? Do you know the background to what's happening today? Fact is - like it or not - PT and their predecessors are far and away the most popular political grouping in Thailand. They almost took Bangkok last time too. The bigger problem Thailand needs to resolve is the inability of people who don't win to accept this, as they need to if the country stands any hope of moving forward. That's the petrol on the fire.

The people who don't win accept the election results. What they don't accept is when the elected government try to whitewash Thaksin's crimes. Both the PPP and the PTP were accepted until they introduced bills related to Thaksin.

Actually that's not true at all. Suthep has been plotting this takeover for ages, since the 2011 election. There was a fascinating story on this on a US site a few days back, with interviews and detail, if you want to hunt it out. He just used the Amnesty bill as a stepping stone for his power grab. He sees the mobs essentially as useful idiots as have men of his ilk for centuries.

Part of the problem Thailand faces is its inability to understand its own history, because of the fact it simply isn't taught. Thaksin, love him or hate him, easily had the strongest democratic credentials of any Thai leader since 1946 and PT retains that. You clearly don't like him which is your prerogative but the arrogance of the mob attempting to overthrow an elected government attacks the most fundamental freedom you have in a democracy - the right to ELECT your leaders.

And the "people"? Who are you talking about? Suthep? You? The minority in BKK who are sitting in decreasing numbers in intersections? Who gave them a right to rule or decide who rules? Please explain where this mandate comes from.

Edited February 3, 2014 by Snig27

[whybother]

The people who don't win accept the election results. What they don't accept is when the elected government try to whitewash Thaksin's crimes. Both the PPP and the PTP were accepted until they introduced bills related to Thaksin.

Actually that's not true at all. Suthep has been plotting this takeover for ages, since the 2011 election. There was a fascinating story on this on a US site a few days back, with interviews and detail, if you want to hunt it out. He just used the Amnesty bill as a stepping stone for his power grab. He sees the mobs essentially as useful idiots as have men of his ilk for centuries.

Part of the problem Thailand faces is its inability to understand its own history, because of the fact it simply isn't taught. Thaksin, love him or hate him, easily had the strongest democratic credentials of any Thai leader since 1946 and PT retains that. You clearly don't like him which is your prerogative but the arrogance of the mob attempting to overthrow an elected government attacks the most fundamental freedom you have in a democracy - the right to ELECT your leaders.

And the "people"? Who are you talking about? Suthep? You? The minority in BKK who are sitting in decreasing numbers in intersections? Who gave them a right to rule or decide who rules? Please explain where this mandate comes from.

"And the "people"? Who are you talking about?"

"The people who don't win accept the election results."

Who said that anyone had a mandate?

I don't think I'll have much luck searching for "a story on a US site a few days back". I might need something a bit more specific to find it.

[phutoie2]

Whybother - when you are in a hole stop digging. This Snig27 is running circles around you. Retire gracefully to your corner old chap.

[Snig27]

on a hindsight - her mistake was resigning and dissolving parliament, believing, that it would diffuse situation and that opposition will stick to their word. However, Democrats decided not to contest an election and thus pulling all their power behind suthep. She had a chance to use police and military to remove protesters from the streets, prevent bangkok shutdown and protection for polling stations, voting papers and boxes.

still, it's not an end for her - she will be elected pm for the second term

Crazy isn't it ??? if then she is elected the courts will most likely take her out with most of the PTP. So what happens then ????

Waste of public money Thailand is short of, What will Issan do when this lot is out ???? who will they vote for the ghosts ???

This democracy thing seems to be quite an issue for some here - a complicated concept. What would you rather do? Maybe install a council appointed by a deeply corrupt former deputy PM with worse democratic credentials than PTP and a human rights record that's as dark as Thaksin? Maybe she should not have called an election? But the problem with that is that it was democratically probably the right thing to do given the vocal dissatisfaction voiced by the whistle blowing Bangkok minority - when there is doubt you go for a mandate, you ask the people. Tricky concept I know, but it works worldwide hence the universal support for this election from the international community. What else would you suggest? Most of Thailand sees Suthep as a raving, dangerous nutter. Given that (and argue it if you want but it's a fact), then maybe he might not be the best person to take control - if we are to avoid a civil war. And he has zero mandate to do so.

Nope, the smart thing to do is to call an election and get the people to decide (and Thailand is not THAT broke - unless Moody's have it wrong). The dumb, dumb, thing was for the opposition to abstain. By doing so they no longer have a right to collectively call themselves anything in a democracy. The Dems have politically ceased to exist today. Idiots.

And even if YS and many PT MPs face legal sanction, the list then ensures that others move up. You are stuck with them.

If Suthep was a band they'd be called The Failures and the past few months would be their Greatest Hits culminating in today.

First off, trying to be condescending to the other members here will not make you many friends.

Care to back your completely opinion based vitriolic biased rhetoric with the odd fact or two ? Maybe a source here and there that could back you up ?

Maybe install a council appointed by a deeply corrupt former deputy PM with worse democratic credentials than PTP and a human rights record that's as dark as Thaksin?

By corrupt, I expect you are talking about that land deal and the oil palm thing, woooo, whoopteedo, 2 things that he has never faced charges for unlike Taksin the convicted fugitive. Care to give us your evidence that he did anything wrong ? 6 people who were 'rich' benefitted out of over 400 in the land thing, maybe a mistake or two was made, maybe corruption, maybe Suteb involved and maybe locals who were dealing with it. Show us the proof ?

Again with the palm oil thing, I have only seen rumour and speculation and no proof whatsoever. Show us the proof ?

As for 'worse democratic credentials', he has not tried to whitewash 25000+ crimes, pissed on the constitution and ignored the rulings of the constitutional courts, issued a diplomatic passport in unending efforts to nepotistically help a relative who is a convicted fugitive on the run - how in the least is any of this remotely democratic ? Care to try and justify this ? Explain to me where in any definition of democracy any of this is acceptable ?

As for 'human rights record' I assume you are talking about the 'crackdown' in 2010. The rioters killed many people before the 'crackdown' happened and they were told what would happen if they contiuued rioting, they decideed to die in the name of the fugitive was better than going home - up to them. Nobody held guns to their heads and forced them to stay. I feel sorrow for the many people going about their daily business who were hurt, those who had to close their businesses as a result of the reds actions, those who had buildings burnt down by the reds, the reporters who were doing their job, the soldiers that were trying to protect the people and the nurse at the temple ( which incidentally had many weapons stashed inside it at the time and reds shooting at the soldiers too no doubt ) these deaths should never have happened. As for the rest, they made a choice to riot against the army who were forced to take action to regain control. None of that is Suteb's fault and the bs murder charges were politically motivated to make him and Abhisit agree to the amnesty bill to absolve themselves. Guess they have more ethics than the PT fools gave them credit for and decided to fight it instead of running away like the girly cowardly fugitive did.

As for Thailand not being that broke, it's credit rating is 2 levels above 'junk' as reported in the papers, so not exactly great and that was before the protests started so don't try and blame it on anyone apart from PT, the rating is bad because of the rice scam....

Thanks for the advice on making friends here. I'm getting a reasonable number of likes so I guess your advice might be somewhat redundant?

As to the rest - have a hunt online for Thailand's ratings not just "reported in the paper". Spend a few minutes hunting out the details of the "25,000+" crimes (I assume you mean the 2500) and how far up it went and who covered it up after the coup.

You make a raft of assumptions in the rest of your post, none of which are correct. No, I wasn't talking about 2010 with regard to Suthep's human rights issues, nor the Palm Oil. All the "proof" you demand can be found in various posts on these forums. Feel free to hunt them out but I do not feel the need to repeat myself when you're unlikely to accept any evidence that contradicts your established and angrily stated position. You are hardly approaching the discussion as a calm inquisitor.

[tingtongteesood]

Crazy isn't it ??? if then she is elected the courts will most likely take her out with most of the PTP. So what happens then ????

Waste of public money Thailand is short of, What will Issan do when this lot is out ???? who will they vote for the ghosts ???

This democracy thing seems to be quite an issue for some here - a complicated concept. What would you rather do? Maybe install a council appointed by a deeply corrupt former deputy PM with worse democratic credentials than PTP and a human rights record that's as dark as Thaksin? Maybe she should not have called an election? But the problem with that is that it was democratically probably the right thing to do given the vocal dissatisfaction voiced by the whistle blowing Bangkok minority - when there is doubt you go for a mandate, you ask the people. Tricky concept I know, but it works worldwide hence the universal support for this election from the international community. What else would you suggest? Most of Thailand sees Suthep as a raving, dangerous nutter. Given that (and argue it if you want but it's a fact), then maybe he might not be the best person to take control - if we are to avoid a civil war. And he has zero mandate to do so.

Nope, the smart thing to do is to call an election and get the people to decide (and Thailand is not THAT broke - unless Moody's have it wrong). The dumb, dumb, thing was for the opposition to abstain. By doing so they no longer have a right to collectively call themselves anything in a democracy. The Dems have politically ceased to exist today. Idiots.

And even if YS and many PT MPs face legal sanction, the list then ensures that others move up. You are stuck with them.

If Suthep was a band they'd be called The Failures and the past few months would be their Greatest Hits culminating in today.

First off, trying to be condescending to the other members here will not make you many friends.

Care to back your completely opinion based vitriolic biased rhetoric with the odd fact or two ? Maybe a source here and there that could back you up ?

Maybe install a council appointed by a deeply corrupt former deputy PM with worse democratic credentials than PTP and a human rights record that's as dark as Thaksin?

By corrupt, I expect you are talking about that land deal and the oil palm thing, woooo, whoopteedo, 2 things that he has never faced charges for unlike Taksin the convicted fugitive. Care to give us your evidence that he did anything wrong ? 6 people who were 'rich' benefitted out of over 400 in the land thing, maybe a mistake or two was made, maybe corruption, maybe Suteb involved and maybe locals who were dealing with it. Show us the proof ?

Again with the palm oil thing, I have only seen rumour and speculation and no proof whatsoever. Show us the proof ?

As for 'worse democratic credentials', he has not tried to whitewash 25000+ crimes, pissed on the constitution and ignored the rulings of the constitutional courts, issued a diplomatic passport in unending efforts to nepotistically help a relative who is a convicted fugitive on the run - how in the least is any of this remotely democratic ? Care to try and justify this ? Explain to me where in any definition of democracy any of this is acceptable ?

As for 'human rights record' I assume you are talking about the 'crackdown' in 2010. The rioters killed many people before the 'crackdown' happened and they were told what would happen if they contiuued rioting, they decideed to die in the name of the fugitive was better than going home - up to them. Nobody held guns to their heads and forced them to stay. I feel sorrow for the many people going about their daily business who were hurt, those who had to close their businesses as a result of the reds actions, those who had buildings burnt down by the reds, the reporters who were doing their job, the soldiers that were trying to protect the people and the nurse at the temple ( which incidentally had many weapons stashed inside it at the time and reds shooting at the soldiers too no doubt ) these deaths should never have happened. As for the rest, they made a choice to riot against the army who were forced to take action to regain control. None of that is Suteb's fault and the bs murder charges were politically motivated to make him and Abhisit agree to the amnesty bill to absolve themselves. Guess they have more ethics than the PT fools gave them credit for and decided to fight it instead of running away like the girly cowardly fugitive did.

As for Thailand not being that broke, it's credit rating is 2 levels above 'junk' as reported in the papers, so not exactly great and that was before the protests started so don't try and blame it on anyone apart from PT, the rating is bad because of the rice scam....

Thanks for the advice on making friends here. I'm getting a reasonable number of likes so I guess your advice might be somewhat redundant?

As to the rest - have a hunt online for Thailand's ratings not just "reported in the paper". Spend a few minutes hunting out the details of the "25,000+" crimes (I assume you mean the 2500) and how far up it went and who covered it up after the coup.

You make a raft of assumptions in the rest of your post, none of which are correct. No, I wasn't talking about 2010 with regard to Suthep's human rights issues, nor the Palm Oil. All the "proof" you demand can be found in various posts on these forums. Feel free to hunt them out but I do not feel the need to repeat myself when you're unlikely to accept any evidence that contradicts your established and angrily stated position. You are hardly approaching the discussion as a calm inquisitor.

So in other words, you have no answers, you have no proof, you have no defence so you are going to do a Yinglack and walk away without answering any questions. Go and skype big brother and get back to me later. Got it.

[Snig27]

The people who don't win accept the election results. What they don't accept is when the elected government try to whitewash Thaksin's crimes. Both the PPP and the PTP were accepted until they introduced bills related to Thaksin.

Actually that's not true at all. Suthep has been plotting this takeover for ages, since the 2011 election. There was a fascinating story on this on a US site a few days back, with interviews and detail, if you want to hunt it out. He just used the Amnesty bill as a stepping stone for his power grab. He sees the mobs essentially as useful idiots as have men of his ilk for centuries.

Part of the problem Thailand faces is its inability to understand its own history, because of the fact it simply isn't taught. Thaksin, love him or hate him, easily had the strongest democratic credentials of any Thai leader since 1946 and PT retains that. You clearly don't like him which is your prerogative but the arrogance of the mob attempting to overthrow an elected government attacks the most fundamental freedom you have in a democracy - the right to ELECT your leaders.

And the "people"? Who are you talking about? Suthep? You? The minority in BKK who are sitting in decreasing numbers in intersections? Who gave them a right to rule or decide who rules? Please explain where this mandate comes from.

"And the "people"? Who are you talking about?"

"The people who don't win accept the election results."

Who said that anyone had a mandate?

I don't think I'll have much luck searching for "a story on a US site a few days back". I might need something a bit more specific to find it.

"The people who don't win accept the election results." That's clearly untrue as they (as in The Dems) would not be a: complicit in an attempt to hijack the government of Thailand for some sort of appointed council, or b: talking about challenging the election in courts (i.e. they don't accept the results) if they accepted the results. They know they are unlikely to win power again in the near future any other way though.

"The people who don't win accept the election results" - so all this talk in the Yellow press and by the hotheads on this forum about people voting for Thaksin because they were either brainwashed or are stupid or have been bought is simply code for "We accept the election results?"

In a wider sense: "The people who don't win accept the election results. What they don't accept is when the elected government try to whitewash Thaksin's crimes." Let's get real, the Bangkok streets are full of people shouting out that PT is not a legitimate government. That the mob wants to overthrow it indicates that they believe they have a mandate to do so. They don't and neither does Suthep and his cronies. And they don't have a mandate to stop the voting or hold ballot boxes or demand a council. That is an abhorrent attack on the process which they are attempting to subvert to their own ends.

The story was on, I'm pretty sure, Reuters, but I can't find it. Sorry, that's a cop-out but it's not intentional.

Edited February 3, 2014 by Snig27

[Snig27]

This democracy thing seems to be quite an issue for some here - a complicated concept. What would you rather do? Maybe install a council appointed by a deeply corrupt former deputy PM with worse democratic credentials than PTP and a human rights record that's as dark as Thaksin? Maybe she should not have called an election? But the problem with that is that it was democratically probably the right thing to do given the vocal dissatisfaction voiced by the whistle blowing Bangkok minority - when there is doubt you go for a mandate, you ask the people. Tricky concept I know, but it works worldwide hence the universal support for this election from the international community. What else would you suggest? Most of Thailand sees Suthep as a raving, dangerous nutter. Given that (and argue it if you want but it's a fact), then maybe he might not be the best person to take control - if we are to avoid a civil war. And he has zero mandate to do so.

Nope, the smart thing to do is to call an election and get the people to decide (and Thailand is not THAT broke - unless Moody's have it wrong). The dumb, dumb, thing was for the opposition to abstain. By doing so they no longer have a right to collectively call themselves anything in a democracy. The Dems have politically ceased to exist today. Idiots.

And even if YS and many PT MPs face legal sanction, the list then ensures that others move up. You are stuck with them.

If Suthep was a band they'd be called The Failures and the past few months would be their Greatest Hits culminating in today.

First off, trying to be condescending to the other members here will not make you many friends.

Care to back your completely opinion based vitriolic biased rhetoric with the odd fact or two ? Maybe a source here and there that could back you up ?

Maybe install a council appointed by a deeply corrupt former deputy PM with worse democratic credentials than PTP and a human rights record that's as dark as Thaksin?

By corrupt, I expect you are talking about that land deal and the oil palm thing, woooo, whoopteedo, 2 things that he has never faced charges for unlike Taksin the convicted fugitive. Care to give us your evidence that he did anything wrong ? 6 people who were 'rich' benefitted out of over 400 in the land thing, maybe a mistake or two was made, maybe corruption, maybe Suteb involved and maybe locals who were dealing with it. Show us the proof ?

Again with the palm oil thing, I have only seen rumour and speculation and no proof whatsoever. Show us the proof ?

As for 'worse democratic credentials', he has not tried to whitewash 25000+ crimes, pissed on the constitution and ignored the rulings of the constitutional courts, issued a diplomatic passport in unending efforts to nepotistically help a relative who is a convicted fugitive on the run - how in the least is any of this remotely democratic ? Care to try and justify this ? Explain to me where in any definition of democracy any of this is acceptable ?

As for 'human rights record' I assume you are talking about the 'crackdown' in 2010. The rioters killed many people before the 'crackdown' happened and they were told what would happen if they contiuued rioting, they decideed to die in the name of the fugitive was better than going home - up to them. Nobody held guns to their heads and forced them to stay. I feel sorrow for the many people going about their daily business who were hurt, those who had to close their businesses as a result of the reds actions, those who had buildings burnt down by the reds, the reporters who were doing their job, the soldiers that were trying to protect the people and the nurse at the temple ( which incidentally had many weapons stashed inside it at the time and reds shooting at the soldiers too no doubt ) these deaths should never have happened. As for the rest, they made a choice to riot against the army who were forced to take action to regain control. None of that is Suteb's fault and the bs murder charges were politically motivated to make him and Abhisit agree to the amnesty bill to absolve themselves. Guess they have more ethics than the PT fools gave them credit for and decided to fight it instead of running away like the girly cowardly fugitive did.

As for Thailand not being that broke, it's credit rating is 2 levels above 'junk' as reported in the papers, so not exactly great and that was before the protests started so don't try and blame it on anyone apart from PT, the rating is bad because of the rice scam....

Thanks for the advice on making friends here. I'm getting a reasonable number of likes so I guess your advice might be somewhat redundant?

As to the rest - have a hunt online for Thailand's ratings not just "reported in the paper". Spend a few minutes hunting out the details of the "25,000+" crimes (I assume you mean the 2500) and how far up it went and who covered it up after the coup.

You make a raft of assumptions in the rest of your post, none of which are correct. No, I wasn't talking about 2010 with regard to Suthep's human rights issues, nor the Palm Oil. All the "proof" you demand can be found in various posts on these forums. Feel free to hunt them out but I do not feel the need to repeat myself when you're unlikely to accept any evidence that contradicts your established and angrily stated position. You are hardly approaching the discussion as a calm inquisitor.

So in other words, you have no answers, you have no proof, you have no defence so you are going to do a Yinglack and walk away without answering any questions. Go and skype big brother and get back to me later. Got it.

Go and Skype big brother? Seriously? Contribute something vaguely intelligent to the conversation and I'm happy to talk, getting abusive and throwing in silly animated gifs is not that.

[whybother]

"The people who don't win accept the election results." That's clearly untrue as they (as in The Dems) would not be a: complicit in an attempt to hijack the government of Thailand for some sort of appointed council, or b: talking about challenging the election in courts (i.e. they don't accept the results) if they accepted the results. They know they are unlikely to win power again in the near future any other way though.

"The people who don't win accept the election results" - so all this talk in the Yellow press and by the hotheads on this forum about people voting for Thaksin because they were either brainwashed or are stupid or have been bought is simply code for "We accept the election results?"

In a wider sense: "The people who don't win accept the election results. What they don't accept is when the elected government try to whitewash Thaksin's crimes." Let's get real, the Bangkok streets are full of people shouting out that PT is not a legitimate government. That the mob wants to overthrow it indicates that they believe they have a mandate to do so. They don't and neither does Suthep and his cronies. And they don't have a mandate to stop the voting or hold ballot boxes or demand a council. That is an abhorrent attack on the process which they are attempting to subvert to their own ends.

The story was on, I'm pretty sure, Reuters, but I can't find it. Sorry, that's a cop-out but it's not intentional.

After both the 2007 and the 2011 elections, there were no protests about the results or protests against the newly elected government. The protests started in 2008 when the PPP government started trying to get Thaksin off his charges, and again in 2011 when the PTP government tried giving Thaksin amnesty.

[rics21]

This mess has started long before Thaksin even was born.

Most of Sutheps supporters do not even know what happened prior to 2010.

So now you resort to saying current protestors are uneducated, or have no knowledge of history. You're one in a million, really.

they are not uneducated, but they just choose to ignore some facts and make believe.

anyway, the protests have became somewhat a "trend" (hope many can recall the Liping panda, furby, Blackberry chat, Blythe dolls, just to name a few. for those who were here since the days prior Thaksin, you should be able to recall the alien workshop baggy jeans with converse shoes, the taiwanese boyband "F4", etc) for the better educated thais in bangkok, and the hardcore democrats supporters of the south.

its a trend and it will someday die off. and people forget, like they always do.

most of the "educated" Thais dont even know the names of previous prime ministers nor how many coups happened prior Thaksin era. thats how much knowledge they have in the history of modern thailand. unlike many countries, the Thai education system do not include most of the facts and history of modern thailand. the kids know more about ayutthaya being burn down by the burma but not the thailand in world war II, military/ authoritarian rule of thailand from 1932–1973. Many don’t even know about thailand's role in the Vietnam war.

Edited February 3, 2014 by rics21