Defiant Thai protesters disregard poll with fresh efforts to force out PM

[whybother]

Until the surname Shinawatra is drummed out of Thai politics, this unrest will prevail un-till the cows come home, there will always will be an undercurrent of hate between the two factions forever, no doubt a bout that , Thaskin Shinawatra has brought shame to Thailand and he's sister is carrying on the name and flying the flag of corruption.

Just in case you hadn't noticed, Thai politics is divided along family lines and has been for a very long time. The current problem exists precisely because the old families (cannot name them of course - let's just say they own some big banks, big dept. stores, big hotels etc.) who have been in power for a very long time do not like the new upstart family coming along and thinking that they can play in the same sandbox. That new family is the Shins of course. And guess what - they got power the smart way - through the ballot box. Like it or not, they went out into the provinces and spent money on people who had been ignored for generations. Vote buying, pork barrelling - call it what you like but it is common practice right around the world. The forces lined up against the Shins are huge. They have a lot to lose. But the Shins have been very clever. They now have the high moral ground. If the old guard want to win they now have to play by a new set of rules. The rural poor won't be hoodwinked the way they have been in the past. The old guard now have to go out and win the hearts and minds. Google some photos of Abhisit on the campaign trail in Isaan and see how uncomfortable he looks. Do the same for Thaksin. See the difference.

Disclaimer - I am not a red shirt supporter, simply an interested observer.

The same families that have been keeping the farmers down in the North & North East have been in power for decades. The only change is that Thaksin bought them in under TRT/PPP/PTP.

[MrJohnson]

Until the surname Shinawatra is drummed out of Thai politics, this unrest will prevail un-till the cows come home, there will always will be an undercurrent of hate between the two factions forever, no doubt a bout that , Thaskin Shinawatra has brought shame to Thailand and he's sister is carrying on the name and flying the flag of corruption.

Just in case you hadn't noticed, Thai politics is divided along family lines and has been for a very long time. The current problem exists precisely because the old families (cannot name them of course - let's just say they own some big banks, big dept. stores, big hotels etc.) who have been in power for a very long time do not like the new upstart family coming along and thinking that they can play in the same sandbox. That new family is the Shins of course. And guess what - they got power the smart way - through the ballot box. Like it or not, they went out into the provinces and spent money on people who had been ignored for generations. Vote buying, pork barrelling - call it what you like but it is common practice right around the world. The forces lined up against the Shins are huge. They have a lot to lose. But the Shins have been very clever. They now have the high moral ground. If the old guard want to win they now have to play by a new set of rules. The rural poor won't be hoodwinked the way they have been in the past. The old guard now have to go out and win the hearts and minds. Google some photos of Abhisit on the campaign trail in Isaan and see how uncomfortable he looks. Do the same for Thaksin. See the difference.

Disclaimer - I am not a red shirt supporter, simply an interested observer.

The same families that have been keeping the farmers down in the North & North East have been in power for decades. The only change is that Thaksin bought them in under TRT/PPP/PTP.

Well that is precisely my point. When I say 'vote-buying' however - many votes were bought through schemes and policies and were not necessarily pay per vote.

[whybother]

Just in case you hadn't noticed, Thai politics is divided along family lines and has been for a very long time. The current problem exists precisely because the old families (cannot name them of course - let's just say they own some big banks, big dept. stores, big hotels etc.) who have been in power for a very long time do not like the new upstart family coming along and thinking that they can play in the same sandbox. That new family is the Shins of course. And guess what - they got power the smart way - through the ballot box. Like it or not, they went out into the provinces and spent money on people who had been ignored for generations. Vote buying, pork barrelling - call it what you like but it is common practice right around the world. The forces lined up against the Shins are huge. They have a lot to lose. But the Shins have been very clever. They now have the high moral ground. If the old guard want to win they now have to play by a new set of rules. The rural poor won't be hoodwinked the way they have been in the past. The old guard now have to go out and win the hearts and minds. Google some photos of Abhisit on the campaign trail in Isaan and see how uncomfortable he looks. Do the same for Thaksin. See the difference.

Disclaimer - I am not a red shirt supporter, simply an interested observer.

The same families that have been keeping the farmers down in the North & North East have been in power for decades. The only change is that Thaksin bought them in under TRT/PPP/PTP.

Well that is precisely my point. When I say 'vote-buying' however - many votes were bought through schemes and policies and were not necessarily pay per vote.

"who have been in power for a very long time do not like the new upstart family coming along and thinking that they can play in the same sandbox. That new family is the Shins of course."

I think you missed my point. The old families from the N/NE loved that Thaksin came along.

[retarius]

"Defiant Thai protesters disregard poll with fresh efforts to force out PM"

People are prohibited by law from discussing the movers and shakers in the current conflict or mentioning the names of those who cannot be mentioned openly and truthfully. Discussions of this nature are illegal in Thailand. At best one needs to read between the lines.

Very few people seem to appreciate this. An extraordinarily large amount of money is being spent, who will benefit? Suthep isn't out there out of the goodness of his heart is he? No, he is expecting a payout in either power or wealth. Who is he doing this for? Well I suggest follow the money trail...this is a vast expense, not funded by a single family, and the amounts involved are equivalent to them actually paying taxes...so it is pretty serious.

To understand this conflict one needs to look at what changes that may occur in Thailand over the coming few years. We hear about ASEAN and other changes but some are not spoken about too much.

Some say this is about corruption, it is a fig leaf, nothing more. Acccording to a recently published international survey published in Nation or BP, corruption increased markedly under the Abhisit regime to a higher level than under Thaksin. In the interests of fairness, it went up again under Yingluck, but patently obviously, this has much less to do with corruption and more to do with which families benefit from the corruption.

[retarius]

SCMP wrote: "...election that is unlikely to settle Thailand’s long-running political conflict." In this regard they have more intelligence in HK than some posters here, who think the election is over and that was it.

Election statistics are way too tricky to trust: Remember, the US President is to be elected (indirectly!) by the majority of the American electorate, but in fact not over 50% but only over 25% is enough. Only half of those elegible to vote do use their right.

Similar here: If one of the candidates gets more votes than the others and he has only around 20%, he is still elected, even though he can't say he represents the will and intentions of most of the people in his district.

From some figures I read late yesterday (Sunday), about 25% didn't vote and of the rest 20% voted "no vote". So the "winner" had to be first among the 60% of all voters, which is much easier to acchieve... These are not totals, just some figures to indicate a trend.

So let's be serious, this election was more of a North Korean style, with only one party and a few "others" to make it look nicer. And btw that is the proof: North Korea holding elections, so... it must be a democracy (Not my opinion, but the logic of the red-shirts). Or the elections in the former East Germany: 99.x% for "The Party" plus a few toe-lickers around it.

And most important, the issue at hand is not over as hoped for by Taksin & Co., only the next steps will most likely be by courts.

But there are two other things to remember....it is much easier to get a 50% majority of voters in a two party system. Thailand's system with many small and regional parties means that in most elections 50% is not achievable by any party. Yingluck's 46% of voters in 2010 was an exceptional result.

The other thing to note is that all urban wealthy elite and middle class can vote. I am told by my Thai family, that there are millions of rural Isaan working in Bangkok doing menial jobs who cannot vote because they are listed in their family book on the farm somewhere 3 or 400 KM away in Buriram or wherever....these are denied the vote, and one might suppose that they are more likely to vote PT than Democrat.

[MrJohnson]

Just in case you hadn't noticed, Thai politics is divided along family lines and has been for a very long time. The current problem exists precisely because the old families (cannot name them of course - let's just say they own some big banks, big dept. stores, big hotels etc.) who have been in power for a very long time do not like the new upstart family coming along and thinking that they can play in the same sandbox. That new family is the Shins of course. And guess what - they got power the smart way - through the ballot box. Like it or not, they went out into the provinces and spent money on people who had been ignored for generations. Vote buying, pork barrelling - call it what you like but it is common practice right around the world. The forces lined up against the Shins are huge. They have a lot to lose. But the Shins have been very clever. They now have the high moral ground. If the old guard want to win they now have to play by a new set of rules. The rural poor won't be hoodwinked the way they have been in the past. The old guard now have to go out and win the hearts and minds. Google some photos of Abhisit on the campaign trail in Isaan and see how uncomfortable he looks. Do the same for Thaksin. See the difference.

Disclaimer - I am not a red shirt supporter, simply an interested observer.

The same families that have been keeping the farmers down in the North & North East have been in power for decades. The only change is that Thaksin bought them in under TRT/PPP/PTP.

Well that is precisely my point. When I say 'vote-buying' however - many votes were bought through schemes and policies and were not necessarily pay per vote.

"who have been in power for a very long time do not like the new upstart family coming along and thinking that they can play in the same sandbox. That new family is the Shins of course."

I think you missed my point. The old families from the N/NE loved that Thaksin came along.

Many thanks for the clarification. I did indeed miss your point. I was however talking about the 'BIG' old families in BKK. Are we talking about the same people?

[whybother]

Many thanks for the clarification. I did indeed miss your point. I was however talking about the 'BIG' old families in BKK. Are we talking about the same people?

We aren't talking about the same people. We are talking about the people that kept the farmers down for decades. We just have different opinions on who they are.

[MrJohnson]

Many thanks for the clarification. I did indeed miss your point. I was however talking about the 'BIG' old families in BKK. Are we talking about the same people?

We aren't talking about the same people. We are talking about the people that kept the farmers down for decades. We just have different opinions on who they are.

Fair enough. Nice to see some civility on TV for a change. Have a nice day!

[citizen33]

Funny thing is, they are White and they are backing a Government, that is racist in many ways. For example, two of my buddies went in and signed up for the 2000 Baht per year medical for foreigners, a few weeks ago. Today, I wanted to put it to the test (even so it would be very unlikely, that I would ever use it)

The wife and I, went to the local hospital, to apply for it and we were told that the Government clarified the policy and it is only for Burmese and other foreign workers, not people like me (White, or White foreign workers). I couldn't really care less, as I am covered by my home Country, for 6 month, every year and pay cash most of the time, anyways, but it does show how racist this Government is.

There are many teachers, who get paid low wages in this Country, who are white foreign workers. Only allowing Asian foreign workers access to this program, is clearly racist. So was Thaksin's comment, that "Farangs bought up MOST of the agriculture land in Thailand and that is why Thai people don't have enough to eat.

So if you guys want to keep spouting of your support for a Government that will take your money, but doesn't like you and would gladly see you gone forever, as long as you keep sending them money, you go right ahead

So Kurt, who is against the redistributive social policies of the current government, tried to sign up for the low-cost foreign workers health care scheme! I have noticed that he is not alone among those who oppose the government. The scheme concerned has been discussed extensively in the health forum and the Chiang Mai and Isaan forums. Some of us tried to caution at the beginning that this was really a scheme introduced in the run up to the AEC, and specifically designed to ease the pressure on Thai health finances arising from cross-border movements from the three neighbouring countries of Burma, Laos and Cambodia. It seems that middle-ranking officials in the MoPH Health Insurance Group as well as some local hospitals interpreted the policy too widely, and allowed foreigners from many countries to join. The centre now seems to be clarifying that the scheme is indeed restricted to the three countries. Actually there was a period where there appears to have been high-level discussions about whether it was best to let the wider interpretation of the scheme's coverage continue The sad thing is that the present upheaval has probably closed the door for this, even if the cards issued already remain valid If we get a 'small government', low public spending administration in power via the extra-constitutional route then programmes of this kind are unlikely to go ahead. The narrowing of eligibility to incomers from three countries is hardly racism, although it would have been good to have a safety net for other long-term residents, including older expats.

[SamMunich]

SCMP wrote: "...election that is unlikely to settle Thailand’s long-running political conflict." In this regard they have more intelligence in HK than some posters here, who think the election is over and that was it.

...

But there are two other things to remember....it is much easier to get a 50% majority of voters in a two party system. Thailand's system with many small and regional parties means that in most elections 50% is not achievable by any party. Yingluck's 46% of voters in 2010 was an exceptional result.

The other thing to note is that all urban wealthy elite and middle class can vote. I am told by my Thai family, that there are millions of rural Isaan working in Bangkok doing menial jobs who cannot vote because they are listed in their family book on the farm somewhere 3 or 400 KM away in Buriram or wherever....these are denied the vote, and one might suppose that they are more likely to vote PT than Democrat.

I agree, but

- the other 52 parties did not stand in every constituency, and

- some of them never showed up in politics and are unlikely to get any decend amount of votes, i.e. so many, that they have an influence on the result.

- I remember in th last or one of the last elections, the TRT/.../PTP propped up some party to avoid the "20% if one party only" rule for the constituency

Where I also agree with you is the bad situation, that Thais have to vote, where they are registered in the tabien bahn. I heard, there is a way to vote "remotely" by mail or such, but that is certainly not being made known to all concerned. In fact, influencing elections is so much easier, when there are less voters you have to "influence". And I haven't heard of any party complaining about this.

[LarryBird]

It has to be said that Thai people receive a lot of flak on TV from many posters and in many forums.

It should be recognised just how brave the people have been to go out and vote in the face of harassment, intimidation and violence. Especially the voters of Bangkok.

Putting aside the politicians for the moment, this has been a massive victory for democracy and the people.

They have shown they can defeat the crazy Amnesty bill. They have refused to back down to Suthep's fascist thugs. Now they need leaders to emerge from the ranks of the ordinary people.

That picture of the elderly woman holding aloft the chains broken from the polling station in Din Daeng can become a symbol for the breaking of chains in a wider context. We can hope that real reform will now take place and if politicians wish to know where to start then they should begin by trusting the people.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Awesome!

[marko kok prong]

These loonies need to pack up an go home. They have been trounced. The people have spoken: they want to be able to choose their government, not have it dictated to them by corrupt former politicians like Suthep, D-list celebrities no one ever heard of, and the likes of the beer heiress. Fortunately Thai people have better sense and are brave enough not to be intimidated by the hired goons.IT'S OVER...

at least 'nine inch nicky' was against the protestors,

[espinoza]

You really want to f'ck YL's sh't up, Suthep? Pour all of that money you were handed into nationwide voter education and a get out the vote blitz.

I smell a Nobel PP, baby!

Please, can somebody translate ?

[espinoza]

These loonies need to pack up an go home. They have been trounced. The people have spoken: they want to be able to choose their government, not have it dictated to them by corrupt former politicians like Suthep, D-list celebrities no one ever heard of, and the likes of the beer heiress. Fortunately Thai people have better sense and are brave enough not to be intimidated by the hired goons.IT'S OVER...

46% of the people have spoken. We don't know what percentage of those voted "None of the above".

But I forget, 46% is a huge majority, isn't it?

Where did you get this number from ? The numers will not be published before february 23.

Loonie...

[whybother]

These loonies need to pack up an go home. They have been trounced. The people have spoken: they want to be able to choose their government, not have it dictated to them by corrupt former politicians like Suthep, D-list celebrities no one ever heard of, and the likes of the beer heiress. Fortunately Thai people have better sense and are brave enough not to be intimidated by the hired goons.IT'S OVER...

46% of the people have spoken. We don't know what percentage of those voted "None of the above".

But I forget, 46% is a huge majority, isn't it?

Where did you get this number from ? The numers will not be published before february 23.

Loonie...

The Bangkok Post has reported it.

[espinoza]

These loonies need to pack up an go home. They have been trounced. The people have spoken: they want to be able to choose their government, not have it dictated to them by corrupt former politicians like Suthep, D-list celebrities no one ever heard of, and the likes of the beer heiress. Fortunately Thai people have better sense and are brave enough not to be intimidated by the hired goons.IT'S OVER...

46% of the people have spoken. We don't know what percentage of those voted "None of the above".

But I forget, 46% is a huge majority, isn't it?

Where did you get this number from ? The numers will not be published before february 23.

Loonie...

The Bangkok Post has reported it.

And Bangkok Post is a reliable source ? Despite the numbers will be published the 23rd. ?

[tingtongteesood]

The last brainwashed yellow thugs, still following Suthep like stupid barking dogs, did not get it yet... Their irrational and violent fight is lost !

The people won. Democracy won.

Were they fed with some kind of mushrooms? They seem to fly so much above the real world... Funny

Chalerm, please round them up now, please...

Sent from my iPhone...

I really wish you would stop using such derogatory language towards the protestors,a few of them are my friends and they are very nice and intelligent people, unlike you. I would chose them over loud mouthed fools such as yourself any time...

[whybother]

And Bangkok Post is a reliable source ? Despite the numbers will be published the 23rd. ?

The Bangkok Post is quoting the EC. You can choose to believe it or not.

The EC are not releasing full results until the 23rd, as that is when it is planning to run by-elections. The EC won't know the full party-list vote until then anyway.

[rojack45]

Finally an intelligent post that sees thru to the heart of this matter. Bravo MrJohnson!

Until the surname Shinawatra is drummed out of Thai politics, this unrest will prevail un-till the cows come home, there will always will be an undercurrent of hate between the two factions forever, no doubt a bout that , Thaskin Shinawatra has brought shame to Thailand and he's sister is carrying on the name and flying the flag of corruption.

Just in case you hadn't noticed, Thai politics is divided along family lines and has been for a very long time. The current problem exists precisely because the old families (cannot name them of course - let's just say they own some big banks, big dept. stores, big hotels etc.) who have been in power for a very long time do not like the new upstart family coming along and thinking that they can play in the same sandbox. That new family is the Shins of course. And guess what - they got power the smart way - through the ballot box. Like it or not, they went out into the provinces and spent money on people who had been ignored for generations. Vote buying, pork barrelling - call it what you like but it is common practice right around the world. The forces lined up against the Shins are huge. They have a lot to lose. But the Shins have been very clever. They now have the high moral ground. If the old guard want to win they now have to play by a new set of rules. The rural poor won't be hoodwinked the way they have been in the past. The old guard now have to go out and win the hearts and minds. Google some photos of Abhisit on the campaign trail in Isaan and see how uncomfortable he looks. Do the same for Thaksin. See the difference.

Disclaimer - I am not a red shirt supporter, simply an interested observer.

[tilac2]

"Defiant Thai protesters disregard poll with fresh efforts to force out PM"

People are prohibited by law from discussing the movers and shakers in the current conflict or mentioning the names of those who cannot be mentioned openly and truthfully. Discussions of this nature are illegal in Thailand. At best one needs to read between the lines.

Very few people seem to appreciate this. An extraordinarily large amount of money is being spent, who will benefit? Suthep isn't out there out of the goodness of his heart is he? No, he is expecting a payout in either power or wealth. Who is he doing this for? Well I suggest follow the money trail...this is a vast expense, not funded by a single family, and the amounts involved are equivalent to them actually paying taxes...so it is pretty serious.

To understand this conflict one needs to look at what changes that may occur in Thailand over the coming few years. We hear about ASEAN and other changes but some are not spoken about too much.

Some say this is about corruption, it is a fig leaf, nothing more. Acccording to a recently published international survey published in Nation or BP, corruption increased markedly under the Abhisit regime to a higher level than under Thaksin. In the interests of fairness, it went up again under Yingluck, but patently obviously, this has much less to do with corruption and more to do with which families benefit from the corruption.

I totally agree. This isn't really about corruption at all. Suthep and his paymasters have used corruption as a campaigning issue because they know it has resonance with the average person who is fed up with petty corruption.

It's not about 'reform first' either. That's another tactic to get traction with the ordinary people so as to stop this election in its tracks. The hope then is that PT and the people who vote for PT will be intimidated and then disenfranchised as the rules are changed to keep them out, before the "big event" happens that we can't discuss.

This is really all about class, and about keeping the underclass in its place; i.e. maintaining the old feudal sakdina system. This becomes clear when you hear the casually-expressed views of middle and upper class Thais. Some I have chatted to have the most rabid contempt for poor and non-Thai people. They speak contemptuously of 'country people', they think that Burmese are on the level of dogs. Thailand must be one of the most class-ridden societies in the world!

These Bangkok elite are deeply insulted that Laos and Cambodians (that's how they think of Lanna and northern people) should have the same one-vote that they have!

That's what this anti-PTP campaign is about. All my hypotheses, of course.

[gemguy]

Just my opinion..so comment as you please.

After more than 20 years here in Thailand I surmise that the Thai people do not really love nor admire Thaksin or his circle of political cronies just because they vote for his / their party, as they know well nearly all politicians are in it for the money and the power and more or less recognised as sleazy and untrustworthy.

I believe they choose the PTP because they recognise the PTP is the first political party to seriously challenge the old Status Quo and the means to bring change to the country more so than the democrats ever did and or ever would.

More than enough Thai people know well what the Democrats represent and the history of all the royalists and monarchists and the powerfull families and politically connected old money people that had control of the country for almost 60 years.

It is not really Thaksin or his family or Yingluck that they are voting for rather they are voting for the means to thwart the efforts of the Democrats to continue to rule over the nation the way they used to in the past.

A vote for the PTP is a vote against the Democrats...regardless of who runs the PTP show.

They want to vote for someone or a political party that can stand up to the democrats

The PTP is the curent means to do so.

I know it is more complicated than that when you start to consider all the numerous aspects of Thai politics.

However, in general, the majority of Thai people remember the past well enough while being very well aware of how they did not have much of a choice in times past....but now they do ......so be it Thaksin or any other powerfull politician that can maintain strong political opposition against the democrats and all that they entail, then the Thais will vote for that party in an effort to stop the democrats from ruling over the nation once again.