Wearing Gloves

[Genericnic]

It compares favorably with getting your chest waxed (which I experienced when a friend who opened a spa needed a test-pilot to try out a package aimed at couples- my wife got an herbal scrub, and I got tortured)- it was like getting struck by lightning forty or fifty times in the same spot (the fact the girl forgot to apply a numbing cream first didn't help).

You weren't sporting a sweater were you?

^

I'm not that hairy, but I screamed and cursed at least as much.

That was a hilarious movie, even better was the fact that that scene was real.

Sent from my SM-T211 using Tapatalk

The American comedian Jeff Foxworthy does a great piece on waxing. If you want to see it, skip ahead to 36:50 where it begins. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuwMWXzzHcA

David

[HooHaa]

seriously, i have never had an incident where i didn't just chuck the bike. it is just basic motorcycle survival.

one memorable day about 10 years ago a driver cut across about 4 lanes of pethcburi to do a u turn between the rail crossing under the expressway and soi 3 . it had just rained after a long dry spell and the road was slick as hell.

i had the option of hitting her car or laying the bike (nc30) down at about 60 kmh.

i laid the bike down slid on my back behind it and got up and ran to bang on her car once i had stopped. the road was like ice.

i was wearing an arai helmet, jeans and a t-shirt. remarkably i did not even get a scratch, i was wearing gloves, and the road was that greasy.

she had no idea she had caused an accident until she stopped looked back and saw my bike on its side on the road. she was mortified.

at the time i had no drivers licence, though the bike was legal. She apologized, called her insurance, and drove me home when they took my bike away on a truck. she was mortified that she had caused my spill.

2 weeks later i got my bike back from my mechanic freshly sprayed with the entire fairing replaced and resprayed, not just the scraped side. the whole thing was new.

her insurance paid, and although it happened 10 years ago, i still get the odd smiley sms from her at valentines and xmas.

anyways the upshot of the story is:

if you think you will crash sacrifice the bike, it can only hurt you

This is relevant for motocross, street riding, even mountain biking where no engine is involved. the bike can be replaced or fixed.

anyways, blah, blah

[RubberSideDown]

^

Once the bike is down you should definitely separate from it, but I don't agree with purposely 'laying the bike down' at all- it's better to stay on and continue to scrub speed and look for a way out than to just give up and drop it.

[AllanB]

I am not an expert biker and don't wish to criticise those who are, but some of the accounts here do seem a bit odd to me.

My riding style changes dramatically when it is raining, or when the roads are wet, I assume I have no grip for braking and cornering and ride accordingly. My first bike was a Phantom and read that they were terrible in the wet, that was a good lesson learned making me ultra cautious on my now better handling NV.

I saw a video about accidents in SE Asia, so I never squeeze, at speed between cars or progress across any junction until I am 100% sure I not going to get hit. I now have a bike that I will do close to 100mph, yet I ride it at 45mph max and when cornering allow for a big margin of error in my speed. So I am never going fast enough to have time to consider whether or not to lay the bike down and am always looking ahead for trouble.

I ride assuming that all other road users are partially sighted and on the phone and around every bend there is a 1 metre deep pothole waiting for me. I live in Isaan you see, where 70% of bikers don't have a licence, drivers can't drive and roads funds are spirited away and transformed into BMWs.

Perhaps the ability of some of these competent riders is their downfall.

Perhaps us old farts with thinner skin would like to keep what little we have.

Edited February 8, 2014 by AllanB

[RubberSideDown]

^

You have to take into account that your bike wasn't much of a handler and had mediocre brakes the day it rolled off the line- it certainly hasn't improved with age (I rode a very similar bike in Japan- it's actually what I learned to ride on nearly 25 years ago), and you can't compare it to a more modern bike- I have no doubt you would be amazed at how well you can maneuver (and in how short a distance you can stop) with a newer bike.

A sportbike is a totally different animal- it's made to be ridden hard- when you approach the edge (of either the bike's capabilities or your riding skills) bad things can happen- it's certainly up to the rider to know all limits, but you need to know the limits of whatever bike you're on, Wave or superbike. That said, you still need to gear up decently regardless of the bike you ride- a 45mph accident can completely destroy or kill you. That doesn't mean you need to wear a full leather suit on the way to 7/11 aboard your Click, but you need to at least take a minimum of precautions.

'Ability' certainly isn't anyone's downfall- you can exhibit excellent ability regardless of what you ride, from tiny scooter on up- that ability will serve to save you in many scenarios- what ends up hurting you is either riding beyond your abilities or getting into a situation through which there is no escape- higher ability increases this 'escape margin', though. No argument that higher speed decreases that margin, but so do poor brakes and suspension.

BTW- everyone rides differently in the rain or in slick conditions- if I'm caught in it, I actually have a 'rain mode' traction control setting.

[ll2]

seriously, i have never had an incident where i didn't just chuck the bike. it is just basic motorcycle survival.

one memorable day about 10 years ago a driver cut across about 4 lanes of pethcburi to do a u turn between the rail crossing under the expressway and soi 3 . it had just rained after a long dry spell and the road was slick as hell.

i had the option of hitting her car or laying the bike (nc30) down at about 60 kmh.

i laid the bike down slid on my back behind it and got up and ran to bang on her car once i had stopped. the road was like ice.

i was wearing an arai helmet, jeans and a t-shirt. remarkably i did not even get a scratch, i was wearing gloves, and the road was that greasy.

she had no idea she had caused an accident until she stopped looked back and saw my bike on its side on the road. she was mortified.

at the time i had no drivers licence, though the bike was legal. She apologized, called her insurance, and drove me home when they took my bike away on a truck. she was mortified that she had caused my spill.

2 weeks later i got my bike back from my mechanic freshly sprayed with the entire fairing replaced and resprayed, not just the scraped side. the whole thing was new.

her insurance paid, and although it happened 10 years ago, i still get the odd smiley sms from her at valentines and xmas.

anyways the upshot of the story is:

if you think you will crash sacrifice the bike, it can only hurt you

This is relevant for motocross, street riding, even mountain biking where no engine is involved. the bike can be replaced or fixed.

anyways, blah, blah

Neber lay your bike down. Just brake. Braking reduces more speed than anything. Even if the road is slippery.

Never leave your bike.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[taninthai]

seriously, i have never had an incident where i didn't just chuck the bike. it is just basic motorcycle survival.

one memorable day about 10 years ago a driver cut across about 4 lanes of pethcburi to do a u turn between the rail crossing under the expressway and soi 3 . it had just rained after a long dry spell and the road was slick as hell.

i had the option of hitting her car or laying the bike (nc30) down at about 60 kmh.

i laid the bike down slid on my back behind it and got up and ran to bang on her car once i had stopped. the road was like ice.

i was wearing an arai helmet, jeans and a t-shirt. remarkably i did not even get a scratch, i was wearing gloves, and the road was that greasy.

she had no idea she had caused an accident until she stopped looked back and saw my bike on its side on the road. she was mortified.

at the time i had no drivers licence, though the bike was legal. She apologized, called her insurance, and drove me home when they took my bike away on a truck. she was mortified that she had caused my spill.

2 weeks later i got my bike back from my mechanic freshly sprayed with the entire fairing replaced and resprayed, not just the scraped side. the whole thing was new.

her insurance paid, and although it happened 10 years ago, i still get the odd smiley sms from her at valentines and xmas.

anyways the upshot of the story is:

if you think you will crash sacrifice the bike, it can only hurt you

This is relevant for motocross, street riding, even mountain biking where no engine is involved. the bike can be replaced or fixed.

anyways, blah, blah

you sure thats not a mis type and you laid the bike down at 6 kph ,no matter how greasy the road is if you jump of your bike at 60 kph in jeans and a t shirt you are going to have road rash.

[AllanB]

^

You have to take into account that your bike wasn't much of a handler and had mediocre brakes the day it rolled off the line- it certainly hasn't improved with age (I rode a very similar bike in Japan- it's actually what I learned to ride on nearly 25 years ago), and you can't compare it to a more modern bike- I have no doubt you would be amazed at how well you can maneuver (and in how short a distance you can stop) with a newer bike.

A sportbike is a totally different animal- it's made to be ridden hard- when you approach the edge (of either the bike's capabilities or your riding skills) bad things can happen- it's certainly up to the rider to know all limits, but you need to know the limits of whatever bike you're on, Wave or superbike. That said, you still need to gear up decently regardless of the bike you ride- a 45mph accident can completely destroy or kill you. That doesn't mean you need to wear a full leather suit on the way to 7/11 aboard your Click, but you need to at least take a minimum of precautions.

'Ability' certainly isn't anyone's downfall- you can exhibit excellent ability regardless of what you ride, from tiny scooter on up- that ability will serve to save you in many scenarios- what ends up hurting you is either riding beyond your abilities or getting into a situation through which there is no escape- higher ability increases this 'escape margin', though. No argument that higher speed decreases that margin, but so do poor brakes and suspension.

BTW- everyone rides differently in the rain or in slick conditions- if I'm caught in it, I actually have a 'rain mode' traction control setting.

I agree with everything you say except "ability isn't anyone's downfall", There are plenty of kids with a huge amount of ability who are now pushing up daisies, just because some <deleted> was half asleep and pulled out. That same sleepy <deleted> would just have me swearing as I am travelling much slower, less sure of my own ability and more aware of my slightly slower reactions... and my own mortality. The whole reason kids pay 20 times more their insurance and why I had all my accidents age 17-21.

Michael Shumacher was the perfect example, most would agree he had ability, but put this ability in the wrong place and his life is now over. He had to be moving to get head injuries wearing a helmet, I have had plenty of crashes on skis and never broken a fingernail.

I travelled through Paris a lot and there was always some capable rider thrashing between the cars at 130kph, one small wheel movement of one slow moving car... and bang dead.

Now Thailand, there are potholes, hobos, kids, stray dogs and dickheads around every bend and no amount of skill will get you out of that.

I travel at 45 mph, but with my wits about me, it is unlikely I would crash at that speed, more likely less than half that, but wearing gloves, great idea, why wouldn't I?.

Edited February 9, 2014 by AllanB

[RubberSideDown]

^

You generally don't have much skill or ability when you're 17-21 (not that there aren't those that do)- that's why that age group has such a high insurance rate- that's the time when the learning curve is the steepest.

Ability will serve to save you, not hurt you- riding unsafely for the road conditions is what causes problems.

The number one cause of motorcycle accidents (by a very wide margin) is rider error- the situations you're referring to are brought on due to a lack of good judgment, not a surplus of ability, but any rider can get into that sort of situation. I completely disagree that a high level of skill won't help you in Thailand (or anywhere)- do you really believe that? Knowing how to make the best use of your brakes, honing your sense of looking where you want to go rather than target fixating on the object in your path, being able to read the possible actions of motorists, etc are all the things that make up the skill set that will keep you alive. Most riders (certainly not all) who get killed did something stupid, and that doesn't point to ability. Go to Phuket or Samui, and you'll see some of the worst, most dangerous riders in Thailand, and none of them have a scrap of ability.

Basically, you're saying that being a good rider makes you a dangerous rider, when exactly the opposite is true- high ability doesn't push you into doing something dangerous, but rather it lets you know how to avoid that danger- at whatever speed you now ride, if your skills improve, you'll be safer- it wouldn't mean you would have to push yourself beyond what's prudent- a good rider has control of himself.

Schumacher isn't a good example- he got in over his head on the non-groomed snow between runs, where he had no business being - if he had more ability or judgment (instead of just thinking he did), he very well wouldn't have had his accident, but he went beyond his skill level- the lower your skill level, the more likely it is that you'll exceed it- the better (which goes hand-in-hand with smarter) rider you are, the less likely you'll have a problem (though not everything is within our control, which is why we should gear-up).

I've been riding a long time, and my main goal is always to improve my skills and ability (not to ride 'faster', but to ride safer)- it was my primary focus the first time I swung a leg over a bike, and it remains so today more than two decades later- I practice braking drills, run the same turns in different ways to find the best way through them, read books and watch videos on technique, and I've had instruction at a track and would really like to do so again someday soon- if you don't want to be a better rider, then you probably shouldn't be on a motorcycle in the first place.

Edited February 9, 2014 by RubberSideDown

[AllanB]

"Basically, you're saying that being a good rider makes you a dangerous rider, when exactly the opposite is true- high ability doesn't push you into doing something dangerous, but rather it lets you know how to avoid that danger- at whatever speed you now ride, if your skills improve, you'll be safer- it wouldn't mean you would have to push yourself beyond what's prudent- a good rider has control of himself."

What I am saying is that if you have a great handling bike and a lot of ability the tendency is to ride faster and corner at higher speeds than if you have neither. In Thailand you are surrounded by people who are riding or driving slowly and expect everyone to be doing the same. You come hurtling around a corning, in full control, or approach them at high speed they are unlikely to know what to do, or how to react. If you can predict what a dog is going to do, then you are a bloody genius.

The safest way to drive in Thailand is to do everything in slow motion and any sudden movements can easily lead to accidents. I have driven in around forty countries and lived in 5 and the driving style is different in every one. When I go back to the UK I must change my driving style completely or I will have an accident, or at least get other road users very angry, but here slow and gentle works.

Lets take the example of what happened a month or two ago, I am riding up to a T junction, preparing to pull out, everything is clear and I proceed, when from nowhere a girl on a bike comes around the corning on the wrong side of the road, talking on a mobile phone. I mph faster and we have a T-bone.

Or as happened to my Paris-\Dakar friend, a car suddenly does a U turn in front of him on the main highway...two broken legs.

Micheal Shumacher was a victim of his own ability, he pushed himself on the racetrack and that self belief lead to his accident on the ski-slopes. Self belief is the problem and lack of it can be an asset, men have many more fatal accidents than women, because they have self belief and women, well they have mobile phones. Women my cause the accident, but if you are dead that isn't important.

This is slow country and driving any other way will put you at risk.

[DILLIGAD]

I must say that it does seem here that locals cannot judge distance/speeds accurately. I am frequently amazed at how people pull out/U turn or change directions causing oncoming traffic to swerve or slow down.

I'm sure we will all agree that this is a dangerous country to be a motorcyclist in ( but that hadn't stopped me!)

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[RubberSideDown]

^^

Having ridden nearly thirteen years in Thailand, I have a pretty good grasp on what it's like to be a motorcyclist here- yes, it's a dangerous place, and skill is your main weapon in surviving the roads. Basically, you're confusing skill and ability with situational awareness.

It doesn't matter what you are riding- you can get in over your head on anything from a 100cc scooter on up. Nearly all the major accidents and deaths in Thailand (with some exceptions, of course) occur on scooters- the bike has nothing to do with it, but rather the lack of ability by the riders is mostly the cause. It takes no skill to twist a throttle- it takes a LOT of it to properly handle a bike.

Having riding skills doesn't mean you ride fast- they translate well in any scenario. Ability keeps you alive on the road- poor judgment (excessive speed for conditions being a major factor) is what hurts you. I've got one of the most powerful bikes ever mass-produced, and I've had dummies on scooters pass me in blind turns- my skill-set allows me to assess a potentially dangerous situation and act accordingly where they are unable to process it as well as I can.

Do you really think if your skills improve as a rider you'll actually be compelled to ride more dangerously in a given situation? Whatever skills I've developed have only served to make me ride smarter and safer. I'll ride fast at times if the conditions allow it, but I could do that regardless of my riding level and bike- it's the unskilled riders who are hazards regardless of their machinery- any bike can be ridden too fast, and a bike with poor brakes and suspension has less of a chance to avoid a hazard than a high-end one (all riders being equal, of course)- higher skills can allow a good rider to make better use of a mediocre machine than a poor rider would be able to on the same bike.

Again, your Schumacher example serves to prove my point- he thought he was better than he really was- his issue wasn't a surfeit of skill, but rather one of hubris- that's the same thing that catches out 18-year-olds on their modded scooters- their belief exceeds their skill.

Edited February 10, 2014 by RubberSideDown

[seedy]

that is why dont like scooters. their design is flawed and they are sometime unpredictable.

Flawed in what way.

[ll2]

that is why dont like scooters. their design is flawed and they are sometime unpredictable.

Flawed in what way.

just google.

and also compare normal bike components and design with scoots.

[paz]

that is why dont like scooters. their design is flawed and they are sometime unpredictable.

Flawed in what way.

just google.

and also compare normal bike components and design with scoots.

There is noting wrong with scooters. Their design is perfectly adequate to their intended purpose and beyond.

[seedy]

just google.

And ask what ??

[Familyonthemove]

that is why dont like scooters. their design is flawed and they are sometime unpredictable.

Flawed in what way.

I guess this is about having the engine sitting on the swing arm and so increasing the unsprung weight - which does not help the suspension to do it's job. But they have such limited power I don't think it's a serious issue - and the more power full 'scooters' tend to adopt motorcycle design.

Big bikes or small scooters - we tend to slide down the road on our hands when we don't read the road conditions right - and blaming the dynamics of the bike is just a convenient excuse.

[AllanB]

^^

Having ridden nearly thirteen years in Thailand, I have a pretty good grasp on what it's like to be a motorcyclist here- yes, it's a dangerous place, and skill is your main weapon in surviving the roads. Basically, you're confusing skill and ability with situational awareness.

It doesn't matter what you are riding- you can get in over your head on anything from a 100cc scooter on up. Nearly all the major accidents and deaths in Thailand (with some exceptions, of course) occur on scooters- the bike has nothing to do with it, but rather the lack of ability by the riders is mostly the cause. It takes no skill to twist a throttle- it takes a LOT of it to properly handle a bike.

Having riding skills doesn't mean you ride fast- they translate well in any scenario. Ability keeps you alive on the road- poor judgment (excessive speed for conditions being a major factor) is what hurts you. I've got one of the most powerful bikes ever mass-produced, and I've had dummies on scooters pass me in blind turns- my skill-set allows me to assess a potentially dangerous situation and act accordingly where they are unable to process it as well as I can.

Do you really think if your skills improve as a rider you'll actually be compelled to ride more dangerously in a given situation? Whatever skills I've developed have only served to make me ride smarter and safer. I'll ride fast at times if the conditions allow it, but I could do that regardless of my riding level and bike- it's the unskilled riders who are hazards regardless of their machinery- any bike can be ridden too fast, and a bike with poor brakes and suspension has less of a chance to avoid a hazard than a high-end one (all riders being equal, of course)- higher skills can allow a good rider to make better use of a mediocre machine than a poor rider would be able to on the same bike.

Again, your Schumacher example serves to prove my point- he thought he was better than he really was- his issue wasn't a surfeit of skill, but rather one of hubris- that's the same thing that catches out 18-year-olds on their modded scooters- their belief exceeds their skill.

I have no doubt that you have gained a lot of experience in your 13 years riding big bikes in Thailand and hope you continue staying safe, I too have learned a lot in my 6 years, but if anything I ride more cautiously as a result, but I am talking generalities now.

When you state that nearly all accidents and deaths are caused by lack of ability, you ignore one other important factor, excessive speed. On the other hand there are tens of millions of people here with no ability whatsoever who never crash and never break a bone in their lives.

Statistics are really not on you side in this argument. The vast majority of deaths and serious injuries happen to people with some riding skills, whereas the skill free people who trundle to work every day at 20mph, go their whole lives with no injuries.

I was given a very useful piece of advice from my sensei during my karate days, which I find applies to life in general. To our surprise he told us, "if you get into a fight situation, it may be tempting but walk away... and if necessary run away." He then went on to explain why..."You have the skills and you will probably win the fight, but what if the guy has a knife, what if he is on drugs, what if he has his mates suddenly appear, what if you hurt him? The situation can change beyond your perception and you can quickly find yourself in big trouble, that could have been avoided. The exception", he told us "is if you have no option, no exit, then you do fight and your skills will help you."

So I know where you are coming from, your skills will get you out of trouble, but your self belief may get you into a position where you really need your skills....and that is my point. If you have skills it is natural to want to use them, at least once in a while.

Anyway we are a bit off-topic and I can clearly see there is two sides to this argument.

Edited February 10, 2014 by AllanB

[casualbiker]

^

You have to take into account that your bike wasn't much of a handler and had mediocre brakes the day it rolled off the line- it certainly hasn't improved with age (I rode a very similar bike in Japan- it's actually what I learned to ride on nearly 25 years ago), and you can't compare it to a more modern bike- I have no doubt you would be amazed at how well you can maneuver (and in how short a distance you can stop) with a newer bike.

A sportbike is a totally different animal- it's made to be ridden hard- when you approach the edge (of either the bike's capabilities or your riding skills) bad things can happen- it's certainly up to the rider to know all limits, but you need to know the limits of whatever bike you're on, Wave or superbike. That said, you still need to gear up decently regardless of the bike you ride- a 45mph accident can completely destroy or kill you. That doesn't mean you need to wear a full leather suit on the way to 7/11 aboard your Click, but you need to at least take a minimum of precautions.

'Ability' certainly isn't anyone's downfall- you can exhibit excellent ability regardless of what you ride, from tiny scooter on up- that ability will serve to save you in many scenarios- what ends up hurting you is either riding beyond your abilities or getting into a situation through which there is no escape- higher ability increases this 'escape margin', though. No argument that higher speed decreases that margin, but so do poor brakes and suspension.

BTW- everyone rides differently in the rain or in slick conditions- if I'm caught in it, I actually have a 'rain mode' traction control setting.

I travel at 45 mph, but with my wits about me, it is unlikely I would crash at that speed, more likely less than half that, but wearing gloves, great idea, why wouldn't I?.

Because they are black?????

[RubberSideDown]

^^

Your point is easy to see- you feel skill/ability = being compelled to ride too fast for road conditions- I feel skill/ability = the ability to stay safer regardless of road conditions or speed.

You'd be very hard-pressed to find a Thai who hasn't had at least one accident in their lives- in fact, I think it would be very difficult for you to find one of your imagined 'tens of millions' (which means nearly every rider in the country) who hasn't had a get-off. Thailand has one of the worst accident rates in the world, and that's mostly due to lack of skill (often combined with alcohol). Few go through their lives with no injuries- that true of most riders and many drivers- if you're on the road long enough, the odds greatly favor your having some sort of accident (though I'd like to see the statistics you say show otherwise).

Hopefully you understand that excessive speed points to lack of ability- as I said before, anyone can twist a throttle- excessive speed is usually what hurts or kills unskilled riders- skilled riders might ride faster, but they attenuate that speed for road conditions- you can be fast and safe- they aren't mutually exclusive.

Riding cautiously is fine, but the skill to overcome 'survival reactions' (where you need to do something counter-intuitive like giving it gas even though hitting the brakes seems like the right thing to do, even though being on the brakes will increase your likelihood of a crash in some scenarios)- you need to have these things in your skill-set, and you need to learn them. Riding slowly with proper riding skills behind you is way safer than plodding along cluelessly.

Your karate analogy is completely misplaced- if you're going 45mph and a car pulls out in front of you, you have no choice but to engage (just riding slowly won't save you from this kind of situation)- you need to know how to best use your brakes, how to find and reach a exit point (if available), etc- your teacher was referring to the alternate possibility of avoiding the problem entirely- well, that often impossible. If you know what to do, your chances of survival increase because sometimes engagement is the only option.

I often ride my Wave in traffic- my skills help keep me off the pavement (and I learned from the accident I had on mine 11 years ago)- I sure don't ride it too fast (maybe 60kph max), but I ride it with the same awareness with which I ride my bigger bike- my skill-set isn't dependent upon my machine.

[mania]

Statistics are really not on you side in this argument.

The vast majority of deaths and serious injuries happen to people with some riding skills, whereas the skill free people who trundle to work every day at 20mph, go their whole lives with no injuries.

The biggest bunch of baloney I have ever read here

I can't even believe you typed that

Edited February 10, 2014 by mania

[RubberSideDown]

Statistics are really not on you side in this argument.

The vast majority of deaths and serious injuries happen to people with some riding skills, whereas the skill free people who trundle to work every day at 20mph, go their whole lives with no injuries.

The biggest bunch of baloney I have ever read here

I can't even believe you typed that

To me that reads as 'the better a rider you are, the more dangerous a rider you are', which seems a bit incongruous.

There are four international hospitals on the small island of Samui- their stock-in-trade and the main reason for their existence is 'skill-free' foreign riders (many of whom are low-side prodigies in accidents that don't involve another vehicle- leg and arm injuries are a favorite), and the government hospital handles the 'skill-free' Thai riders- the riders who have a bit of skill are much less likely to see the inside of an ER.

[RubberSideDown]

Here are some statistics I found (which are actually on my side):

From a US study analyzing motorcycle accident statistics from 2006 done by the University of Southern California- they point out that lack of rider skill is a major contributing factor:

http://www.motorcycle-accidents.com/pages/stats.html

4. In the single vehicle accidents, motorcycle rider error was present as the accident precipitating factor in about two-thirds of the cases, with the typical error being a slide out and fall due to over braking or running wide on a curve due to excess speed or under-cornering.

22. The motorcycle riders involved in accidents are essentially without training; 92% were self-taught or learned from family or friends. Motorcycle rider training experience reduces accident involvement and is related to reduced injuries in the event of accidents.

23. More than half of the accident-involved motorcycle riders had less than 5 months experience on the accident motorcycle, although the total street riding experience was almost 3 years. Motorcycle riders with dirt bike experience are significantly under represented in the accident data.

26. Motorcycle riders in these accidents showed significant collision avoidance problems. Most riders would over brake and skid the rear wheel, and under brake the front wheel greatly reducing collision avoidance deceleration. The ability to counter steer and swerve was essentially absent.

33. Motorcycle riders in these accidents were significantly without motorcycle license, without any license, or with license revoked.

Edited February 10, 2014 by RubberSideDown

[AllanB]

"There are lies, damn lies and statistics."...Mark Twain, I think

I am not talking about the statistic related to accidents, I am referring to all bike riders and not all bike riders have accidents.

If, for instance, you find a statistic that says that last year there were 1000 fatal accidents and 800 didn't have a licence but were skilled enough to ride fast enough, then one statistic will prove that is is safer to be trained and have licence. Your argument.

But if take into account all bikers and there are, say 10 million of them, the vast majority of which have no skills, nor a need for them and 9.999 million had no accidents, the picture is completely different. No skills means you don't die, my argument.

If you don't have any riding skills you won't be pushing yourself to test them, merely ride your Honda Wave to the market at 20mph and live to be 90. A hell of a lot safer than a skilled rider on a big bike doing a ton down the Mitterpar Road.

Ayrton Senna and all the others are dead as a direct result of being skilled, the rest were just lucky.

[RubberSideDown]

^

Now you're becoming desperate- you have no statistics to back you up so you disparage mine, and yet you claimed that statistics didn't support my position in previous posts (when they clearly do)- now you're just making up numbers with absolutely no basis in fact. Do statistics have validity only if they support your argument, but mean nothing in support of anyone else's? You can't have it both ways- you brought statistics into it- mine are real, yours are fabricated.

Read this carefully:

THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE MOTORCYCLE ACCIDENTS ARE UNSKILLED RIDERS. RIDER TRAINING HAS PROVEN TO REDUCE THE INCIDENCE OF ACCIDENTS.

In other words, good riders crash less often than poor riders.

The rider errors that tend to cause accidents are rookie mistakes- braking error, errors made in turns, etc- sure, experienced riders have accidents and well, but, as they know how to avoid these errors, they are inherently safer.

If your claim had any validity, the above wouldn't be the case.

If you take 10,000,000 riders in Thailand, do you actually believe that only 10,000 of them have had accidents? Are you kidding? Do you really live in LOS? I think you'd be hard-pressed to find that many (with a few years of riding experience) who haven't had an accident.

You don't need skill to ride fast- anyone can do it- you need skill to ride fast safely. There are thousands of kids on scooters right now who have their throttles pinned, and they have no training or skills.

Ayrton Senna was RACING, not riding on the street- do you understand the concept of a straw man fallacy?

No skills mean you are going to get hurt sooner or later- you can have it from here, Allan- your posts speak volumes about your own knowledge and experience (or lack thereof) as far as motorcycling in concerned.

One thing TV has given me is a real insight into why the roads in Thailand are so dangerous, and it sure isn't all the fault of the Thais.

Edited February 11, 2014 by RubberSideDown

[AllanB]

Okay let be clearer, I mean a "significant accident". Broken bones, disabled, or dead, anything else is irrelevant. I got a paper cut last week, doesn't count...we heal.

On Kho Summed my wife was riding down a muddy hill at 2mph and lost it, picked up a couple of bruises, she won't thank me for saying this, but this is not significant. Others with more skills lost skin, shed blood...getting towards significant.

I am not saying your argument is wrong, I am looking from a different perspective and whether Senna was on a racetrack or on the street competing against his mates for fun, like many others, is irrelevant.

Men are competitive, women are not, if you are competitive you learn to be better.....men die on motorbikes, women don't...statistically.

Don't shout at me, I made no disparaging remarks against your argument and never said that training to be better was bad in itself, that would be stupid.

There is also a thing called "the buzz" I still get it at gone 60 and plan to do something risky later this year, training now to be prepared.

[taninthai]

I actually saw a bike crash yesterday,ferang going about 10-15kmr pulling into gravel driveway ,must have been to heavy on the front brake and down he went that's what I call no rider skill or training.

Pretty lucky there was no truck or car coming behind them ,would have than been a possible fatal accident.

Edited February 11, 2014 by taninthai

[RubberSideDown]

Most motorcycle accidents are relatively minor when compared to permanent incapacitation or death.

You keep drawing a new line in the sand for your argument (now it's not 'accidents' but 'severity of accidents'- again, the vast majority of road deaths in Thailand are on scooters, which are of course the predominant two-wheeled vehicle). If you spent time on any of the Thai-based big-bike forums, you'd know what a relative rarity a death on a large-displacement bike is, where on scooters it's a dozens-or-times-everyday occurrence. When you're not wearing any safety gear, an accident at any speed can be significant in terms of injury- a tip-over in the mud at a virtual stand-still is another straw man fallacy (as is the example of Senna, who was paid millions of dollars to push it to the absolute limit, which is hardly 'irrelevant')- a low-side at 30kph has the capacity rip you up or break your bones (or kill you if you're not wearing a helmet).

'Shouting' at you and posting in caps to make sure you actually read a point (which it seems you often don't before responding) are two different things.

Again, you misquote statistics- regarding women, they tend to have a disproportionate percentage of accidents, even though they make up a lower percentage of riders (though males might die at a greater rate- there were no numbers so it's only speculation)- see below:

19. Motorcycle riders between the ages of 16 and 24 are significantly over-represented in accidents; motorcycle riders between the ages of 30 and 50 are significantly under represented. Although the majority of the accident-involved motorcycle riders are male (96%), the female motorcycle riders are significantly over represented in the accident statistics.

The bottom line is that skilled riders crash less often than unskilled riders- your claims regarding 'skill-free' riders not having accidents (you claimed the vast majority go through their live injury-free on their bikes, which isn't even close to true) are utterly without any basis in fact.

Your best option to stay safe on the road is to increase your skills as a rider- riding around unskilled means that not only are the other people on the road potential hazards, but you have the increased risk of being a hazard to yourself. Increased skills don't mean you'll drive too fast or with less caution- they mean you'll have a better chance to avoid an accident because you'll be more in control of both the bike and yourself.

Edited February 11, 2014 by RubberSideDown

[AllanB]

Well unlike a car accident, where most of the time you walk away completely unscathed, apart from a dent in the wallet, the severity of a bike accident is extremely relevant to me. I am thinking all the time I am on a bike about my survival chances at a given speed, in many situations, in my truck I never give it a second thought, knowing I will walk away. Indeed I am more concerned about what my truck may do to others, especially crazy kids on bikes, that's why I swear a lot.

The point you made about the farang who fell off his bike in slow motion can be looked at another way, had he been doing 40mph, he may easily have been killed and wouldn't have to wait for a truck to come along and squish him.

As I have said before there are two ways of looking at skills versus risk conundrum and they are both very real. I have read all the published figures, but rarely does a statistic, or set of, tell the whole story.

It is not my wish to be a dullard, but it is certainly safer, of that there can be no doubt. I am sure Senna thought that too and I don't believe it has much to do with money either, these guys have it in their blood and only the racing authorities stopped Schumacher going the same way.

I think "off topic" is beckoning.

Edited February 11, 2014 by AllanB

[RubberSideDown]

^

You brought up the topic, and you also said that the statistics don't favor my argument, when indeed they do- you haven't posted any statistics of your own to support your point, though. If statistics don't mean anything, perhaps you shouldn't continually reference them (the only reason I first checked them was because you said they disproved what I had to say).

We're not talking about cars/trucks- that's another straw man fallacy- you need to stick to the point-at-hand to make a coherent argument. Yes, bikes are more dangerous than cars- how is that relevant to your point?

The point of the slow-motion accident was brought up by you, in reference to your wife's incident on a muddy road (which didn't support your side in any way)- regardless, you can reach speeds of 100kph on most scooters, and you don't need skill to ride at that speed- you do, however, need skill to stay as safe as possible at any speed. Unskilled riders get in over their heads with speed- skilled riders do that as well, but with skill comes a higher ability to save yourself. Your wife could just as easily been riding 40mph regardless of her skill level- the throttle doesn't know who's twisting it.

An 'accident' on a bike would be defined as a mishap requiring some degree of first aid or medical attention, where the injury requires at least a few days to heal- you can't dismiss anything short of a broken bone as 'insignificant'- any degree of serious road rash or heavy bruising or straining of extremities definitely counts- either can send you to the emergency room and require follow-up treatment. You wouldn't consider the incident described in the OP (including a pic of the injury) to be a 'significant accident'? I certainly would- that injury will be disabling in the short-term and will take quite a while to heal.

Senna was paid specifically for both his skills AND his willingness to drive in an extremely high-risk fashion- why you think his example is relevant to this topic is a mystery- a skilled rider obeys the rule-of-thumb of using about 7/10ths of his riding skill level on the street (and 10/10ths of his safety skill)- Senna was on a track driving at 100% doing 190mph when he went off.

While I can usually see both sides of an argument, in your case all I see is a continually shifting defense of an untenable point. Yes, driving slowly is generally safer than riding too fast, but regardless of your speed, greater skill will always work to your benefit. A skilled rider will always be safer than an unskilled rider at a given speed- it is NOT a 'conundrum'.

Edited February 11, 2014 by RubberSideDown