Alfalfa

[lingling]

Is alfalfa a suitable crop for this climate? Any link to info about growing it here, or tips from anyone who have tried? (and where can one buy the seeds for it?)

[RamdomChances]

Is alfalfa a suitable crop for this climate? Any link to info about growing it here, or tips from anyone who have tried? (and where can one buy the seeds for it?)

Its supposed to be great as cow food, but I've never seen it grown, or noticed any seeds for sale. What sort of cows do you want to feed ? and how many, how much land have you got. What type of soil is it ect

We are growing forage sohgram (yaa jumbo in thai) and are getting excelent results this year, but it lends itself to cut and carry so is hard work, although I think we will have a surplus this year so might run a tractor over it and do some silage.

Ruzi grass is popular they have started mixing it with "centro verona" to improve the pasture. This is sutible for grazing. Pangola grass is very good as well if you an grow it.

Try getting in touch with these people there should be somewhere near you

http://www.dld.go.th/nutrition/ANIMAL_NUTR...ON_DIVISION.htm

If you plant the jumbo now it would be ready in a month or two, you shoould be able to get seeds anywhere (seed shop) Ruzi would probably take about 3 months and some people recon it's best not to graze the cows the first year as they tend to pull the route up.

[lingling]

What sort of cows do you want to feed ?

The cows in the attached photo...

and how many, how much land have you got.

They mainly eat chopped corn leaves and stalks but I figured I might try some alternative food for them and plant maybe 1-2 rai to start with...

What type of soil is it ect

Dense clay rich soil. Like concrete when dry, soft when wet.

[RamdomChances]

Ok your raising for beef then are you looking for weight gain or just to breed ? Chopped corn leaves and storks are good if you can get them, are you growing corn just to give to them? If you grow "sweet corn" (khow phood wan) you can sell the corn (Maize) and still feed the plant to the cows. A lot depends on how many cows you want to feed.

If you are only going to a couple of rai and are happy with cut"n"carry I'd go with Forage Sorghum (yaa jumbo or khow fang wan in thai) Its readly avalible, cheap and easy to grow. If you cut it by hand it will just keep growing back. It will grow back after grazing but takes a lot longer as the cows trample it in and destroy many of the plants. My neibour planted some he recons is a new strain, fast growing, it was about a meter tall in less than a month. All varieties look very simular to maize, but with out the heads, can grow up to 2 meters+ in hight, but best cut about a meter when the stalks are still soft and juciy. We dont bother chopping ours and there is not much wastage. Get it in as soon as you can, you only need to scatter it over the land and then plough over with a small disc plough (7 disc on the large fords) a bit of urea (nitrogen fertiliser) when it starts coming though at about 30 kg/rai works well but is'nt essential

If you want to graze them I'd go for Ruzzi grass (Brachiaria ruziziensis is the latin if you want to do a search, the Thais just call it "Lucy") It's often mixed in with some sort of lugume "cento" is popular (Centrosema pubescens). I've tried it before but did'nt get it to grow that well, but I took a short cut and the "weeds" sort of out grew it. The land needs turning over first (large 3 disc plough), spread the seed then small disc (7 disc or 3-5 disc on a small tractor). It will take a while to grow but the regrowth after grazing is supposed to be very good. You would need to strip graze it really.

All told I'd go for the jumbo if I we you and only doing a couple of rai although if looked after and not over grazed the Ruzzi grass should come back year after year. The jumbo does alledgedly, but I've previously grazed mine and it ruins it, on the other hand its so cheap and easy to grow, it's not much of a problem

If anyone around you grows peanuts the left over plant is good, fresh or dried, but dont feed it as a sole source rather as a suplement to other forage. Man (cassava root/tuber) is pretty good for weight gain, but has gone up in price a lot this year, again a couple of kg's a day as a suplement (if you are feeding them bagged food no need)

RC

[lingling]

Ok your raising for beef then are you looking for weight gain or just to breed ? Chopped corn leaves and storks are good if you can get them, are you growing corn just to give to them? If you grow "sweet corn" (khow phood wan) you can sell the corn (Maize) and still feed the plant to the cows. A lot depends on how many cows you want to feed.

My son has three cows (the ones in the pic above), soon to be four (the pic is 10 months old, the calf is as big as her mother and the mother is going to have another one), my wife has two and my father in law has about ten of them. They are for breeding and as pets and the corn is readily available locally (loads of corn fields around so we buy it from the corn farmers). But we have a bunch of unused land so I want to grow some free food for them. I am all for grazing but my father in law is afraid that someone will steal the cows if we let them graze without anyone watching them.

If you are only going to a couple of rai and are happy with cut"n"carry I'd go with Forage Sorghum (yaa jumbo or khow fang wan in thai) Its readly avalible, cheap and easy to grow. If you cut it by hand it will just keep growing back. It will grow back after grazing but takes a lot longer as the cows trample it in and destroy many of the plants. My neibour planted some he recons is a new strain, fast growing, it was about a meter tall in less than a month. All varieties look very simular to maize, but with out the heads, can grow up to 2 meters+ in hight, but best cut about a meter when the stalks are still soft and juciy. We dont bother chopping ours and there is not much wastage. Get it in as soon as you can, you only need to scatter it over the land and then plough over with a small disc plough (7 disc on the large fords) a bit of urea (nitrogen fertiliser) when it starts coming though at about 30 kg/rai works well but is'nt essential

Ok, I will look for the yaa jumbo seeds.

If you want to graze them I'd go for Ruzzi grass (Brachiaria ruziziensis is the latin if you want to do a search, the Thais just call it "Lucy") It's often mixed in with some sort of lugume "cento" is popular (Centrosema pubescens). I've tried it before but did'nt get it to grow that well, but I took a short cut and the "weeds" sort of out grew it. The land needs turning over first (large 3 disc plough), spread the seed then small disc (7 disc or 3-5 disc on a small tractor). It will take a while to grow but the regrowth after grazing is supposed to be very good. You would need to strip graze it really.

All told I'd go for the jumbo if I we you and only doing a couple of rai although if looked after and not over grazed the Ruzzi grass should come back year after year. The jumbo does alledgedly, but I've previously grazed mine and it ruins it, on the other hand its so cheap and easy to grow, it's not much of a problem

If anyone around you grows peanuts the left over plant is good, fresh or dried, but dont feed it as a sole source rather as a suplement to other forage. Man (cassava root/tuber) is pretty good for weight gain, but has gone up in price a lot this year, again a couple of kg's a day as a suplement (if you are feeding them bagged food no need)

RC

Now, if we at some point want do grow something else, will any of these types of grass act as a weed? (is it easy to get rid of without using any kind of herbicides) Or is there any chance that they will spread uncontrollably and take over nearby rice paddies?

[RamdomChances]

I am all for grazing but my father in law is afraid that someone will steal the cows if we let them graze without anyone watching them.

Well it's not unheard of Usually if grazing away from "home" there is someone with them. We use electric wire to "fence off parts of the farm for grazing, but its all around the house and we keep them in the paddok at night. I would of thought corn would'nt be avalible this time of year ? its pretty seasonal with a long growing cycle.

Now, if we at some point want do grow something else, will any of these types of grass act as a weed? (is it easy to get rid of without using any kind of herbicides) Or is there any chance that they will spread uncontrollably and take over nearby rice paddies?

Of the two the Ruzzi grass is the most invasive, but you should'nt have too many problems and it wont grow in submerged rice paddies anyway. Jumbo, you get the odd stalk splatered around but not very invasive at all, one good ploughing and thats more or less it. Its also very easy to spot and just cut out. With smalled herds cut and carry makes much better use of the land IMO well apart from the need to cut and carry it anyway you'll get a much better yield/rai time after time.

[lingling]

Well it's not unheard of Usually if grazing away from "home" there is someone with them. We use electric wire to "fence off parts of the farm for grazing, but its all around the house and we keep them in the paddok at night. I would of thought corn would'nt be avalible this time of year ? its pretty seasonal with a long growing cycle.

In these parts it is. I guess it has to do with artificial watering from a large irrigation dam... (the whole place is a network of large and small irrigation canals and unlimited water supply for B300 per year to some local water board so the cycles are not controlled by when it rains)

[chownah]

RandomChances,

I got some para grass from Mae Jo University and am starting to propogate it for fodder and pasture. I believe that you mentioned it a long time ago but haven't mentioned it lately. Is my memory correct and if some can you comment on para grass? I decided on para grass over pangola grass because here in the north it is rather cool at night for about 3 months and I read that pangola grass grows very slowly when the temperature is lower. I'm also wondering about para grass becoming a pest.

Chownah

Edited June 13, 2006 by chownah

[RamdomChances]

RandomChances,

I got some para grass from Mae Jo University and am starting to propogate it for fodder and pasture. I believe that you mentioned it a long time ago but haven't mentioned it lately. Is my memory correct and if some can you comment on para grass? I decided on para grass over pangola grass because here in the north it is rather cool at night for about 3 months and I read that pangola grass grows very slowly when the temperature is lower. I'm also wondering about para grass becoming a pest.

Chownah

I can't remember commenting on para grass, we used to feed ours with Pangola, but it's not that easy to grow and I've been told requires a lot of water. Para grass is very invasive, are you planing on grasing them? To be honest I would stick with ruzzi for grasing and "jumbo" for cut'n' carry. I've got about 7 rai with ruzzi which did'nt take that well so is just mixed in with local "grass" we graze the cows on it and cut'n'carry the jumbo.

I'm having really good results this year,in fact our yields/cow are the higest they have ever been, we have more jumbo than we can cut and the cows eat. We are doing some grazing of the jumbo as I have so much of it but the regrowth is much slower than cuting it by hand. We actually planted the jumbo in the hot season, we had one downpour so ploughed the land and just chucked the seeds in, they have come on really well in fact we've been feeding it since april it does'nt need much water so I recon I'm going to be fine until about jan/feb. I'm planning about an other 10-15 rai of ruzzi for grasing, we do strip grasing using electric wire.

I dont know which is the best for weight gain, but we are getting better milk yields with Jumbo/Ruzzi than we were when we were giving pangola, a lot will depend on the climate/earth where you are but jumbo seems to thrive anywhere is cheap to buy and easy to grow. The only downside is having to cut it and young plants are supposed to have high levels of prussic acid. I'd worry about the para grass invading the rice paddies.

RC

[chownah]

RC,

Ruzzi needs a lot of nitrogen (or so I've read) so I've not considered it seriously...but since you are warning about the invasivness of para maybe I'll reconsider. I know that para was invasive but I've been sort of in denial about that because I've got a small patch growing already and it seems like pretty good stuff.....maybe I'll reconsider and for sure I'll be real careful to not let it get away from me. Since I farm organically its a bit more work to get nitrogen for the ruzzi but maybe I'll try some out mixed with a legume and see what happens....also I think I'll start looking for jumbo seeds. I don't know if I'll do more grazing or more cut and carry....I've never done cows before so I'll just figure it out as I go along. The main reason for getting the cows is to have an easy manure supply (since I'm organic) but I'm sort of hesitant about having cows cause I look at them like having children...a real hassle and it would make it alot harder to take vacations etc. .....that's why I'm going real slow on this project....I'm not wanting to complicate my life too much.

Chownah

[RamdomChances]

the main reason for getting the cows is to have an easy manure supply (since I'm organic) but I'm sort of hesitant about having cows cause I look at them like having children..

Would'nt just buying cow manure or chicken be easier, we sell loads of the stuff 10 bhat a bag (30kg bag) about 5 bhat if you have your own bags and fill them yourself. I'm not sure about ruzzi neding lots of nitrogen, I've read it does well with it and you get better nutritional value from it if you apply nitrogen, but as your not really intrested in fattening the cows up then it should not really matter.

If you dont want calfs just keep all females (or bulls) and dont inseminate them. We are probably looking at feeding from different aspects, I feed for milk production and if I kept beef cattle I would feed for weight gain, you seem to just want something to feed them on, to be honest probably the best for ton/rai would be jumbo, some of the grasses and espesialy leugems are much higher in protien, but you dont really need it if your just keeping them for manure.

[chownah]

RandomChances,

Even though manure is my primary objective I'm still trying to develop a viable agricultural system so I'll be raising the cows for meat since I don't want to hassle with dairy. I might end up selling calves or yearlings....I'll have to see how it works first. My idea is to grow corn to sell for humans and then feed the stalks to the cows....grow some green beans (haricots) for humans and feed the plants to the cows etc. I don't really know how this will go on a small scale but I'm working now getting things ready. I'm thinking that my final build out might be to have two or three breeding females and keep their male offspring as feedlot steers when they are old enough and feeding them the corn stalks and bean plants as a high quality fodder to fatten them more quickly....any idea if this will work? I really don't know what I'm doing so I'm approaching this very slowly...I want to have several fenced off areas for pasture alternating with cropping perhaps...don't know...I'm sort of making this up as I go along. I'll have enough fencing done by the first of next year and I'm planting different legumes to learn about growing them so probably sometime early next year I'll be ready to get a couple female cows and see what shakes. I've presently got about 12 rai but about 6 rai will have rice in it every year from June through December at least to start. If I can demonstrate that I can do better with something other than rice then I'll shift 4 rai of those 6 to cropping but I'll still have to plant 2 rai with rice because those two rai are always too wet for cropping anything else.

Chownah

Edited June 16, 2006 by chownah

[RamdomChances]

Sound like a good plan mate, very simular to what a lot of Thai small holders do.

Sweet corn (khow phood wan) would be better if your going to feed the stalks to the cows as it's harvested while the plant is still green, the normal type around here the actual plant is dryed up by the time they harvest so there is little nutritional value left. You can feed the inner husks off the corn as well, stovers I think they are called the dried plant and stover has about the same nutritional value as rice straw, which I assume you will have from the rice as well. If you machine strip the corn keep the fine powdery stuff off it as well (lamb) you can feed that to the cows.

How do you do your rice, if you just take it to somewhere for stripping then keep the outer shells (greap) and polishings (lamb) greap has virtually no nutritional value but can be mixed with other stuff to add bulk and fibre, rice lamb is as good as some bagged food concentrates.

If your growing corn seasonaly ie not using irrigation you can plant sorghum after either forage (jumbo) or grain (khow fang) sell the grain and let the cows eat the stalks. Have you thought about cassava (man) the leaves are supposed to be good as food and the tuber either sold or kept to use as feed concentrate.

I've mentioned peanuts to you before, but you did'nt have very good results our problem with then was I had too many plants at one time and had a lot of wastage. After trying a few cash crops and feeding the cows the left overs, I'm happier just growing forage for the cows as my cows are the primary income on the farm, your going for a more intergrated approch. In your position I'm not sure weather I would bother planting any pasture for the cows just put it all to crops and use the residue plus rice straw to feed the cows.

My neibour does a very simular thing, has about 20 beef cows, grows corn then grain sorghum and grazes the cows on it after harvest, he also uses the bits of land alongside the road (goverment land) for planting jumbo and generaly moves them around grazing where ever there is any thing to eat

When I think about feeding I tend to use rice straw as my baseline as they can live off it but just for maintanance ie dont expect them to put any weight on, the beans I'm not sure but should be ok.

Cheers RC

[chownah]

I've done a couple of short rows of casava and its not worth the effort to dig up the roots here...its really difficult to dig them up....maybe sandy soil would be better.....also casava has some chemical that means you should limit the amount of leaves you feed unless you make silage. Casava is probably a good deal if the soil is right I guess but so far for me its just been a hassle.

I've got water year round here if I pump from my ponds when the klong is not running so that gives me some flexibility what I grow when.

I want to avoid having to stake the cows out all the time....if its convenient I'll probably do this but hoping that my fences will make life easier for me by letting me to just let the cows lose in the morning and collecting them in the evening. I've got an idea I want to try out. Do you think I can train my cows to come when I ring a big bell? I thought I'd try to teach them by ringing the bell and then immediately feeding them some treat that they really like. After awhile I think they would learn and come whenever I ring the bell. If I can do this then I'll only have to ring the bell in the evening and the cows will come home!

Chownah

[RamdomChances]

Yea casava seems to do better in sandy soil, they grow a lot a couple of km up from me where the soil looks vewry sandy, around here nobody bothers, although a couple of people are trying it this year as the price has gone up so much. I think it's prussic acid in the leaves, supposed to be the same problem with "jumbo" if you feed young plants.

Do you think I can train my cows to come when I ring a big bell?

If you feed them the same time every day you wont even need the bell, ours are cueing at the door every morning and afternoon. I've got a fence around the paddock and just use electric wire when they are out grazing, if you let them they will just gorge themselfs on grass so it's better to strip graze using electric fencing. You can control how much they eat then and give the rest time to re-grow.

I'd like to fence around the perimiter of our land but the cost is just to high

[chownah]

I guess for a dairy you are interested in milk production and healthy pregnancies so it might be counter-productive to let the cows gorge on grass....but....if you are raising beef isn't gorging on grass what you are wanting them to do?...or is too much grass bad for them?

[RamdomChances]

Sorry mate been off line for a while. Yea them eating a lot is good, but they get a bit greedy and most places are'nt totaly self suficent in fresh forage. You let them out into a nice field and they will just eat the lot. It's better to try and regulate it.

Fat dairy cows are'nt thet good either you get a few problems with it especialy during hot season and after calfing. Generaly they all lose weight for about 3 months after calfing when the milk production is highest and then suould geadually put some back on again for the next pregnancy.

[chownah]

Lingling,

A new development on the alfalfa front. Maizefarmer has discovered that there is a kind of alfalfa called "lucerne" that is grown in the south of Thailand. I'm hoping he'll post here and tell us more about his findings. If it will grow in the south where the rainfall is so high I think it should be do-able almost anywhere in Thailand....I think its at least worth checking out.

Also, I found a link that talks about lucerne for high rainfall areas:

http://www.dse.vic.gov.au/dpi/nreninf.nsf/...FILE/AG0719.pdf

[Maizefarmer]

Is alfalfa a suitable crop for this climate? Any link to info about growing it here, or tips from anyone who have tried? (and where can one buy the seeds for it?)

From what you have said about your soil it does not sound at all suitable for Alfalfa (any type).

Moreover, the quantity you wish to cultivate (+/- 2 rai) would make it quite impractical to manage as a year round forage for the amount of cattle you have - you will have all your land tied up with a faorage crop that will "peak & trough" - what are you going to maintain the livestock on during the troughs In theory you could manage a small plot of any legume type crop so that you get a daily yield througout the year, but I woul dbe inc;ined to think the amount of labour would soon have you regretting have planted the stuff.

I would use 1/3 to 1/2 of that land to grow a maize crop to be ensiled for feeding in the dry season, and the rest used for one or other of the common forage grasses. Don't ask me which one - for that amount of land I would think there is no perfect one and that you'd probably be able to manage any of them to give a farily decent "cut & carry" yield year round.

Tim

[chownah]

Maizefarmer,

I'd like to find out more about any varieties of alfalfa be it lucerne or other cultivars that are presently being cultivated in Thailand. Do you have a link or contact or some other source of information you could share with us?

Chownah

[Maizefarmer]

…………… so that you can make a point out of one or other aspect of what I have to contribute.

Jump on the bus and go down South to get some hands on real life experience about alfalfa – or any other legume for that matter – that’s where most of it is grown. Or perhaps contact Chok Chai – they have experience growing it.

I have used this forum to share my knowledge (and close on 20 years of farming experience in this country) to comment, stimulate discussion, and offer help & advise to all those who I think will genuinely benefit from it.

I don’t believe for one moment you have a genuine interest for any advice, comment or help I could offer you (judging by the tone to many of your replies to what I have posted in the past).

I don’t have much time for that style of forum contribution, and while I am a firm believer that forums have to be a free medium (whether I like someone else’s comments or not), I have lost interest now and have more productive things to do with my time.

Tim

Edited November 9, 2006 by Maizefarmer

[chownah]

I've been out looking for information about lucerne but have found nothing to indicate that it is the name of a cultivar of alfalfa. I have found a plant called hedge lucerne which is grown in Thailand but it is not directly related to lucerne proper. Hedge lucerne's latin name is Desmanthus virgatus (common names: adormidera, brusca prieta, dwarf koa, frijolillo, ground tamarind, guajillo (Mexico); guashillo, huarangillo, langalet, petit acacia, petit cassie, petit mimosa, virgate mimosa, dwarf koa (Hawaii); desmanthus (English))while proper lucerne's latin name is Medicago sativa (common names: Lucerne, alfalfa, common purple lucerne, common lucerne, purple alfalfa, purple medick).

Hedge lucerne is a legume and it can be grown in such a way that its structure resembles lucerne proper which probably accounts for its name. It is used as an animal feed. I did not find if it causes bloating in cattle.

I got information about these two plants from the following:

http://www.tropicalforages.info/key/Forage...us_virgatus.htm

and

http://www.fao.org/ag/AGP/AGPC/doc/Gbase/DATA/PF000346.HTM

I looked at the chokchai dairy website and it was long on fun but short on farming information. I don't see why they would want to spend efforts to teach me how to raise lucerne since their business is to make money off of the dairy end and not off of the teaching farangs how to be farmers end. If someone has more faith in them as a data source and the time to pursue it please let us know what you find out.

Chownah

Edited November 10, 2006 by chownah

[Maizefarmer]

Examples of different cultivars

Validor & WL South (examples of semi- winter active types)

Aurora & Trifecta (examples of winter active types)

Siriver & Sirosal (examples of dormant types)

The above have a common genetic base shared with Sickle Medik – in much the same way as you get different genetic bases for cattle (e.g. Bos Indicus & Bos Taurus)

Each is suitable for a different combination of soil and climatic conditions, and the differences are basically as follows:

Winter Actives – as their name suggests, they are cold tolerant but they do not last long (around 3 years) and have low disease resistance. Aurora & Trifecta are examples of this type.

Semi Winter Actives - do grow through winter but at a much reduced rate, last longer (around 5 years) and have medium disease, pest resistance. Validor & WL South are examples of this type.

Winter Dormants – do not grow in the winter (go into a sort of hibernation), last a long time (7 years plus) and have excellent disease and pest resistance. Siriver & Sirosal are examples of this type

They are visually distinctive by way of flower colour – which can from shades of purple & blue to shades of yellow.

It is from this last group that we find suitability for South East Asia.

From these 3 groups dozens of hybrids have been developed.

Pak Chong Animal Research station in the province of Korat is used by visiting Asian academics as a base to conduct research.

[kiwijack]

Examples of different cultivars

Validor & WL South (examples of semi- winter active types)

Aurora & Trifecta (examples of winter active types)

Siriver & Sirosal (examples of dormant types)

The above have a common genetic base shared with Sickle Medik – in much the same way as you get different genetic bases for cattle (e.g. Bos Indicus & Bos Taurus)

Each is suitable for a different combination of soil and climatic conditions, and the differences are basically as follows:

Winter Actives – as their name suggests, they are cold tolerant but they do not last long (around 3 years) and have low disease resistance. Aurora & Trifecta are examples of this type.

Semi Winter Actives - do grow through winter but at a much reduced rate, last longer (around 5 years) and have medium disease, pest resistance. Validor & WL South are examples of this type.

Winter Dormants – do not grow in the winter (go into a sort of hibernation), last a long time (7 years plus) and have excellent disease and pest resistance. Siriver & Sirosal are examples of this type

They are visually distinctive by way of flower colour – which can from shades of purple & blue to shades of yellow.

It is from this last group that we find suitability for South East Asia.

From these 3 groups dozens of hybrids have been developed.

Pak Chong Animal Research station in the province of Korat is used by visiting Asian academics as a base to conduct research.

Thanks for all the great advice re cattle feed types..... I too looking at running a few head on a cut & carry basis initially. Can anyone tell me if the jumbo can be planted straight into paddy.. does it need irrigating to sustain thru a Buriram dry.. or do I need to fill & raise a bit first. Any tips appreciated.

[Issangeorge]

Can someone give me the Thai name for Jumbo grass, thanks Issangeorge

[chownah]

Can someone give me the Thai name for Jumbo grass, thanks Issangeorge

It's called ya jumbo...at least that's what RandomChances said...I've never actually heard any Thais refer to it.

Chownah

[RamdomChances]

It's a type of forage sohgam, try "Khao fang wan" it does'nt seem to like warter logged soil much, will have limited growth throu the dry season.