Brainwashed

[kriswillems]

I never thought I would need to write something like this and I also don't know in which forum to write it. But it looks like a mental problem, so I write it here.

My wife is educated but very naive and very religious and superstitious.

2 weeks ago a guy came to her shop and told her that he was related to her in his last life. They were both in the royal palace. This guy talked with her every day for hours about his beliefs and about their past lives.

Finally the guy asked my wife to borrow him 200K baht to be used as sinsod in his marriage ceremony. He even brought his future wife with him. My wife went to the bank and sent the money to his account. He promissed she would the money back within one week.

After that his telephone number was cancelled and she can't contact him anymore. It's clear that it all was a scam. Everyone around her (her parents and I) feels very sad, but my wife is extremely, unusually happy. She says it's all part of some test and after this test she will be even more happy. She doesn't want to go to the police, because she still beliefs the guy.

I checked the story she told me with the webpages she loaded and with the SMS messages she got. What she tells me is most probably the full truth. Also all the remaining money she had (400K) she transferred to my account, so she clearly trusts me and has no personal problem with me. All other valuables she has are locked into a safety deposit box at another location (with her agreement).

Now after one week she's sure she'll get the money back, and the telephone number which has been cancelled will reappear.

I am worried about 2 things:

- Is there some kind of doctor I could bring her to to make her quickly come to her senses? So, we can go to the police?

- What if after one week, she'll not get the money back? Is there a risk she'll hurt herself? Should we see a doctor?

[JesseFrank]

You just described the mind of the average Thai.

[billzant]

If you are genuinely afraid that your wife will hurt herself when she realises that she has been conned, then I suggest you ask her parents what they advise.Are all the old Farangs who have lost their life savings to a pretty young Thai girl mentally ill, or would you describe them differently? I certainly would not describe the old Farangs as brainwashed - just conned.

[kriswillems]

I call her brainwashed because she refuses to believe she has been conned. She doesn't want to go to the police.

I kinda forced her to go to the police and she's going with her father right now, against her own will.

She believes she did something very good - related to her last life with that guy.

It's like she is in sect.

This guy made her so crazy that I am afraid she might give even more money (and maybe land) to him, that's why I (and her parents) are trying to prevent that.

We are married for 13 years, never had any problem, never lost any money to religion or superstition, fortune tellers and so on.

I asked her parents for advice. Her parents are rich. They think 200K is just a bit of money. They think it's a small problem and suggest to just leave it.

Her father ever has been conned for 6 million, but that case was not related to strange beliefs.

Her parents also understand she has been brainwashed and conned, they can't bring her to reason either.

She refuses to go to a psychiatrist, she says she's not mad.

Edited February 9, 2014 by kriswillems

[edwardandtubs]

I'm not sure a psychiatrist could help. Religions make people believe things that are clearly not true and people who have lost money often go into a state of denial, for example shareholders of Enron who kept their shares believing the share price would bounce back. Combine those things and you have a dangerous combination, but not a psychiatric condition.

[Sheryl]

As bizarre as this may seem to you, it is not at all unusual and her belief is not all that odd in the context of the Thai worldview.

If this is the only thing she has said or done that seems odd, I see no indication for psych treatment. In addition, Thais tend not to be very accepting of it, even when there is a clear need.

Keep in mind too the Thai concern about "face". Part of her problem (besides an attachment to the whole narrative this guy spun) may be that to acknowledge she has been scammed is to lose face.

[kriswillems]

Thank you to all.

I more or less came to the same conclusion.

She is very naive,even more naive than the average Thai woman. But probably not naive enough for psych treatment.

Her naivety was one of the reasons I fell in love with her.

It just turns out there are disadvantages to it too.

The only thing I can do is talk in a non pushing way and let her parents help.

I have a very good relation with her parents and I respect them very much.

I am kinda over the money that was lost, but I am worried about the future.

It will be hard to trust her again.

It so sad to see how her mind is still being controlled by somebody that is not around an that scammed her for 200K.

I hope time will help.

Edited February 9, 2014 by kriswillems

[mimi9000]

Typical thai person who thinks they r practicing Buddhism, but they know nothing about Buddha nor his teachings, moreover nothing about how superstition has been manufactured by the people along the way as a misrepresentation of the ignorance.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[edwardandtubs]

Thank you to all.

I more or less came to the same conclusion.

She is very naive,even more naive than the average Thai woman. But probably not naive enough for psych treatment.

Her naivety was one of the reasons I fell in love with her.

It just turns out there are disadvantages to it too.

The only thing I can do is talk in a non pushing way and let her parents help.

I have a very good relation with her parents and I respect them very much.

I am kinda over the money that was lost, but I am worried about the future.

It will be hard to trust her again.

It so sad to see how her mind is still being controlled by somebody that is not around an that scammed her for 200K.

I hope time will help.

She sounds like the kind of woman crying out for a "firm hand". Stamp your own authority on her to get this creep out of her mind and life.

[kriswillems]

I wondering how superstitious somebody needs to be to be classified as mentally ill.

If you would believe what my wife believes in Europe, you would probably be classified a borderline psychotic while here in Thailand you're almost average.

Edited February 9, 2014 by kriswillems

[kriswillems]

Thank you to all.

I more or less came to the same conclusion.

She is very naive,even more naive than the average Thai woman. But probably not naive enough for psych treatment.

Her naivety was one of the reasons I fell in love with her.

It just turns out there are disadvantages to it too.

The only thing I can do is talk in a non pushing way and let her parents help.

I have a very good relation with her parents and I respect them very much.

I am kinda over the money that was lost, but I am worried about the future.

It will be hard to trust her again.

It so sad to see how her mind is still being controlled by somebody that is not around an that scammed her for 200K.

I hope time will help.

She sounds like the kind of woman crying out for a "firm hand". Stamp your own authority on her to get this creep out of her mind and life.

I've tried being angry, very angry. I didn't help.

This afternoon I had a long and calm conversation with her - while before she was 100% sure this guy was not scamming her, she's now only 90% sure.

All valuables are now with her parents and me. It's very strange to see a guy that she knows only 2 weeks can brainwash her until the level that she doesn't even believe her parents anymore (who she normally adores). I am totally puzzled.

[77fidelio]

I would advise you to go to good psychiatrist with your wife. Because as far as I can see it could be chronic (hidden) OCD, or starting psychosis or even more. But I have no rights to make a diagnosis here.

I would suggest you to go to BNH hospital, there are some very good psychiatrists.

[h90]

Thank you to all.

I more or less came to the same conclusion.

She is very naive,even more naive than the average Thai woman. But probably not naive enough for psych treatment.

Her naivety was one of the reasons I fell in love with her.

It just turns out there are disadvantages to it too.

The only thing I can do is talk in a non pushing way and let her parents help.

I have a very good relation with her parents and I respect them very much.

I am kinda over the money that was lost, but I am worried about the future.

It will be hard to trust her again.

It so sad to see how her mind is still being controlled by somebody that is not around an that scammed her for 200K.

I hope time will help.

She sounds like the kind of woman crying out for a "firm hand". Stamp your own authority on her to get this creep out of her mind and life.

I've tried being angry, very angry. I didn't help.

This afternoon I had a long and calm conversation with her - while before she was 100% sure this guy was not scamming her, she's now only 90% sure.

All valuables are now with her parents and me. It's very strange to see a guy that she knows only 2 weeks can brainwash her until the level that she doesn't even believe her parents anymore (who she normally adores). I am totally puzzled.

Give it time, after a week, after a month that guy still not paying it back maybe the doubts will increase.

[kriswillems]

Give it time, after a week, after a month that guy still not paying it back maybe the doubts will increase.

Thank you. I think you're right. But I m sure it will take long. She told me that she'll get the money back and after that I'll need to talk this guy too (a said said in a a way like - you'll be so impressed with him). I am afraid he'll contact her again and everything will start over again.

I tried to call to the number I had with her telephone. Somebody picked up the line and said sawadeekrab. As soon a he heard my voice he put down the line.

Before, when I called him with my phone or with my wifes phone it said : "the number you've dialed does not exist". He probably uses many sims and after a while not using one sim, the telephone network seems to forget his number exists.

If you don't use a certain sim for a short time, the network will say : "there's no signal for this number", so a different message.

It looks very much like this guy isn't finished with her, because he's still willing to pick up her call, but puts down the line as soon as he knows it's not her.

I haven't slept for 2 days. Soon, I'll be the one that needs to see a psychiatrist.

[sustento]

Thank you to all.

I more or less came to the same conclusion.

She is very naive,even more naive than the average Thai woman. But probably not naive enough for psych treatment.

Her naivety was one of the reasons I fell in love with her.

It just turns out there are disadvantages to it too.

The only thing I can do is talk in a non pushing way and let her parents help.

I have a very good relation with her parents and I respect them very much.

I am kinda over the money that was lost, but I am worried about the future.

It will be hard to trust her again.

It so sad to see how her mind is still being controlled by somebody that is not around an that scammed her for 200K.

I hope time will help.

She sounds like the kind of woman crying out for a "firm hand". Stamp your own authority on her to get this creep out of her mind and life.

I've tried being angry, very angry. I didn't help.

This afternoon I had a long and calm conversation with her - while before she was 100% sure this guy was not scamming her, she's now only 90% sure.

So when you've finally convinced her 100% that she's been scammed and have utterly humiliated her how are you going to deal with that?

[CaptHaddock]

He could be back. Seems to be a common story with these long con artists.

[canarysun]

Just another reason as to why i am still " SINGLE " ( successfully ) and do not wish for a " Soap Opera " style relationship here in Thailand.

God Bless you all !

M

[Sheryl]

Neither naivete nor superstitiousness are psychiatric problems.

And superstitiousness is a deeply ingrained part of Thai culture, they are raised with it. Even highly educated and otherwise rational people will seek a supernatural explanation or approach to things as the first resort. This is just something you have to accept as part of the culture.

There are things westerners do that Thais would consider an indication of insanity, too.

Obviously, need to take steps to ensure your wife cannot independently spend or commit large amounts of money. Even after she realizes she has been had (if she does -- she may come up with some alternate explanation...insufficient faith, etc), she will still fall for scams i nthe future. Soem people are just like this.

[77fidelio]

Neither naivete nor superstitiousness are psychiatric problems.

There is a huge difference between naiveté, superstitiousness and psychiatric problems.

To give away money from your family budget to a person who introduce himself as an astral relative could be first (maybe already not first) sign of serious psychiatric problems.

She could cut off husband's head someday saying that "angel told her to do that". You know what I mean.

Edited February 10, 2014 by 77fidelio

[h90]

Give it time, after a week, after a month that guy still not paying it back maybe the doubts will increase.

Thank you. I think you're right. But I m sure it will take long. She told me that she'll get the money back and after that I'll need to talk this guy too (a said said in a a way like - you'll be so impressed with him). I am afraid he'll contact her again and everything will start over again.

I tried to call to the number I had with her telephone. Somebody picked up the line and said sawadeekrab. As soon a he heard my voice he put down the line.

Before, when I called him with my phone or with my wifes phone it said : "the number you've dialed does not exist". He probably uses many sims and after a while not using one sim, the telephone network seems to forget his number exists.

If you don't use a certain sim for a short time, the network will say : "there's no signal for this number", so a different message.

It looks very much like this guy isn't finished with her, because he's still willing to pick up her call, but puts down the line as soon as he knows it's not her.

I haven't slept for 2 days. Soon, I'll be the one that needs to see a psychiatrist.

Yes, scary I didn't thought for that...he might call, tell that he just now want to give be the money, BUT he bought goods outside Thailand which are very value and now he only needs the money to clear customs.

Or wife just had an accident and need a 100K for the doctor......

[h90]

Neither naivete nor superstitiousness are psychiatric problems.

There is a huge difference between naiveté, superstitiousness and psychiatric problems.

To give away money from your family budget to a person who introduce himself as an astral relative could be first (maybe already not first) sign of serious psychiatric problems.

She could cut off husband's head someday saying that "angel told her to do that". You know what I mean.

check on the internet there are thousands of stories were people transfer a lot money to Nigeria (or similar places) just because of some nice emails.

No psychiatric problems, just believing people and not being an old cynic like myself.

[kriswillems]

Ok, my wife is starting to realized she has been cheated after I could show her clear prove (related to the strange behavior of the guys telephone line and internet usage).

I also went to her close friends for advice.

She is like 50/50% now.

She gave me more information now.

I have the address of the conman and the owner of the building confirms he really lives there.

All assets of my wife are blocked (with her approval). She can't make anymore mistake right now.

She was indoctrinated for days in meditation exercises that very much looked like what we would call hypnosis. If you're open for this kind of thing it's easy to be cheated.

In few days she'll fully understand she has been cheated. I'll forgive her.

We have been together for 13 years and this is the first problem we had in 13 years which was entirely caused by her.

We will go for practical solutions to prevent problems like this in the future.

She's not sick but really has been brainwashed in a very intensive manner.

Edited February 10, 2014 by kriswillems

[77fidelio]

Neither naivete nor superstitiousness are psychiatric problems.

There is a huge difference between naiveté, superstitiousness and psychiatric problems.

To give away money from your family budget to a person who introduce himself as an astral relative could be first (maybe already not first) sign of serious psychiatric problems.

She could cut off husband's head someday saying that "angel told her to do that". You know what I mean.

check on the internet there are thousands of stories were people transfer a lot money to Nigeria (or similar places) just because of some nice emails.

No psychiatric problems, just believing people and not being an old cynic like myself.

No, unfortunately it's not just believing people and not being an old cynic. I see it almost every day in my working practice.

People who are looking for this ways of "doing kindness" very often not so bright in psychiatric sense.

[h90]

Ok, my wife is starting to realized she has been cheated after I could show her clear prove (related to the strange behavior of the guys telephone line and internet usage).

I also went to her close friends for advice.

She is like 50/50% now.

She gave me more information now.

I have the address of the conman and the owner of the building confirms he really lives there.

All assets of my wife are blocked (with her approval). She can't make anymore mistake right now.

She was indoctrinated for days in meditation exercises that very much looked like what we would call hypnosis. If you're open for this kind of thing it's easy to be cheated.

In few days she'll fully understand she has been cheated. I'll forgive her.

We have been together for 13 years and this is the first problem we had in 13 years which was entirely caused by her.

We will go for practical solutions to prevent problems like this in the future.

She's not sick but really has been brainwashed in a very intensive manner.

with meditation exercise, if you want to follow them, not expect something bad you can fool most people. When I was young there was a show in my hometown and the hypnosis artist let some voluntairs make themself complete idiots. And I know these people...they did things they would never do.....If not expecting to be manipulated you can change (almost) everyones mind for a limited time.

So don't be angry with her....she is a victim....maybe a bit slow to realize that she was cheated and naive to let it started but that guy seems to be a professional....

Maybe have a talk with the police station, maybe you have some street wise relatives that can assist and hint to the police that if they can secure the money, you would "donate" 30 % for the police station (of course I mean there that they can buy new motorbikes to work more efficient or similar......but of course up to the officer how the best use the money).

Getting 70% or 50% back is still better than zero...

[h90]

Neither naivete nor superstitiousness are psychiatric problems.

There is a huge difference between naiveté, superstitiousness and psychiatric problems.

To give away money from your family budget to a person who introduce himself as an astral relative could be first (maybe already not first) sign of serious psychiatric problems.

She could cut off husband's head someday saying that "angel told her to do that". You know what I mean.

check on the internet there are thousands of stories were people transfer a lot money to Nigeria (or similar places) just because of some nice emails.

No psychiatric problems, just believing people and not being an old cynic like myself.

No, unfortunately it's not just believing people and not being an old cynic. I see it almost every day in my working practice.

People who are looking for this ways of "doing kindness" very often not so bright in psychiatric sense.

yes.....but I would call them good people.....trying to help....

[Kitsune]

Ok, my wife is starting to realized she has been cheated after I could show her clear prove (related to the strange behavior of the guys telephone line and internet usage).

I also went to her close friends for advice.

She is like 50/50% now.

She gave me more information now.

I have the address of the conman and the owner of the building confirms he really lives there.

All assets of my wife are blocked (with her approval). She can't make anymore mistake right now.

She was indoctrinated for days in meditation exercises that very much looked like what we would call hypnosis. If you're open for this kind of thing it's easy to be cheated.

In few days she'll fully understand she has been cheated. I'll forgive her.

We have been together for 13 years and this is the first problem we had in 13 years which was entirely caused by her.

We will go for practical solutions to prevent problems like this in the future.

She's not sick but really has been brainwashed in a very intensive manner.

I have met a few dangerous people before, manipulators with real skills can do real damages.

Most of my friends view me as a skeptic, I question things and people a lot but I did fell for a couple of very dark and crafty people.

Did not lose 200 000B but got shit scared of how much power these people could have over me and how they make you believe stuffs,you thought you'd never fall for.

Your wife sounds like an easy target but she might also have encounter one of these crafty manipulators. Temples is probably their preying ground.

This can be very traumatic, you feel violated and helpless.

I found that learning and reading books about ways they manipulated me, the techniques, the skills they use, how to recognize these types of people, helped me to overcome this horrible experience. May be you could direct her to learn more about this, so it won't happen again ?

[bina]

your wife wasnt brainwashed, she was conned by someone that plays on the fears of many thai people which is the chat paan chat nee chat na (past life this life future life).... since they believe in past lives, then this is just a play ont he beliefs.

brain washing is something that is done over time, like, most main religiouns practice, or even on my kibbutz for instance ... for good things and bad things.

your wife is jsut maybe innocent, or different level of intelligence, or different level of education and thought, and so believed this guy.

its not a psychiatric problem

the same reason people play lottery, or pray to saints or donate large amounts to various 'organizations ' that are canvassed over the phone....

[kriswillems]

My wife is a good person, she believes easily because she trusts people.

She is not stupid, in the sense of that she's not intelligent. She has a degree from a Thai government university, which matches with an intelligence level of about finishing highschool in Europe, with a reasonably good score. She's much more smart than for instance my mother (in many ways), but my mother would never fall for something like this, also because my father protects her from being manipulated.

The guy didn't work alone.

The first time the guy came to the shop with a friend and he was able to tell the full identity card number of a customer that entered the shop about 5 minutes later, without looking at it. He told his friend this, he din't say it directly to my wife. The customer looked surprised when taking out his identity card. The helper in the shop saw this act happening. My wife was working and passing there, not fully aware of this act. But it was clearly set up by a gang of 3 people (the customer was part of the gang).

The guy is clearly a very experienced conman.

I feel sorry for my wife because she worked very hard for this money. She'll get hurt at the moment she'll become fully aware of what happened. She still at 50% now.

The room of the conman (at the address I've now) looked like a Thai fortune teller style room. He's clearly specialized in this kind of manipulation.

I asked her closest friends (with who she lived in same small room for several years) not to try to convince her of the truth right now, but to wait until the moment she starts to realize it and help her at that time.

Edited February 10, 2014 by kriswillems

[Braddockrd]

Educated and superstitious is an oxymoron. There is no real education while superstition still prevails. She clearly needs more education...

[crazykopite]

Thai people have some very strange ways my neighbour had travelled more than a 100 kms when a black cat crossed her path she turned around drove back home and a couple of hours later restarted her journey she tells me a black cat crossing in front of you is very bad luck whereas in the UK I was always under the impression it was good luck I suppose in a way your wife thinks she has acted in a normal way regardless what we would think I hope for her sake that this person will indeed come back and pay her back with some interest but deep down I think she has been scammed.