Corruption within the rice pledging scheme

[mmh8]

to op :the other side is certain wealthy people own warehouses. the rice comes in through one door then out the other and back in the front door, it can be done a number of times.

it is as with all things not the government who are messed up on this. thai rice was world renowned up until a few years ago, thai jasmine rice being some of the most expensive out there on internaitonal market. Now though.... it s the reputation as well, watch Vietnam, Laos etc pick up the mantle of quality rice.

Edited February 12, 2014 by mmh8

[96tehtarp]

Fact is there were fake deals.. deals that never were.

Fake deals. Great. Which fake deals, how many, and between which groups and individuals? You don't need to give specific details personally, but before the constitution of Thailand is ripped to smithereens someone should be able to name the names and give specifics as to why these alleged fake deals require the urgent suspension of representative democracy. Unspecified alleged fake deals don't qualify the OP's request for clarification of the numerous allegations on TV of massive scale corruption in the rice pledging scheme.

It too have heard rumours of fake deals. It sounds to me like deals that didn't go through. I've had many big sales deals, and even collected deposits, received signed contracts, and added them to my sales reports only tor them to fall apart later. I didn't get fired. I've also done business with Chinese importers, or at least tried, and 99% of their requests for bids are fake.

"G2G they are allowed to sell rice below the price they bought it for."

Selling below cost is a normal part of any business process. It happens every day. Two good examples are Thai Airways whose airline division has never ever made a profit, and Big-C/Tesco Lotus/Makro with loss-leaders. Selling stockpiled rice after an unexpected glut in the rice market at a loss is not massive scale corruption which is so urgent that it requires the annulment of the 02FFB elections and and end to representative democracy in Thailand. It does not satisfy the question asked in the OP.

"Now a trader closely to Taksin bought up rice under the G2G deals (illigal as they care not the Chinese government as they alleged) and then sold that cheaper rice back into the program.. Double whammy money wise."

I think I have heard this one too. It sounds like a real stinker. I think what you are trying to say is the same as what I think I have heard.

That is; One of Thaksin's alleged cronies through an alleged offshore subsidiary allegedly bought stockpiled pledged rice from the government at below market price, then it is alleged that he somehow sold it back to the government at the 40+% higher pledging scheme rate. I can be absolutely certain that some clever individuals will have or have already tried this. That's what Thailand has an NACC for. I'd like to see the book thrown at these alleged culprits if they are found guilty and lose their appeals. Personally I'd have them, if convicted, shot live on the 06:00AM news, in real-time for all the farmers to see.

This is an alleged isolated indecent. If it wasn't isolated we'd have the DEM's jumping up and down with facts and evidence of plenty more incidents like this one. One-off alleged corrupt deals like the above don't qualify the OP's request for clarification of the numerous allegations on TV of massive scale corruption in the rice pledging scheme; neither do they call for the appointment of a, as of yet, unnamed, unelected, undemocratic people's council that will shred Thailand's constitution.

" Besides that there are sales on paper that never were just to make it look good."

Yes, I've heard this one too.

In business once you get a signed contract with or without a deposit it is booked as a sale. In the hospitality and travel industry they are called advanced bookings. There is a much bigger scam going on now in the western financial industry where banks are permitted to use and book non-existent future estimated profits in order to pass new stricter financial requirements. I don't see anyone seriously calling for a 5 year ban of Britsh MP's and American congressman from politics, or for a ban for their respective political parties, or any calls to shred their respective constitutions and appoint non-elected, unnamed people's councils. Sorry, IMO this doesn't satisfy the OP.

"This is just the tip of the iceberg, more info about this is posted in an other clip by user Trembly who is fluid in Thai and translated a youtube clip / explanation of the whole scam."

That clip I have seen. I believe it only included allegations and what's called here-say, but I'd like to see it again. Would anyone like to provide a link to it? It sounds like it may satisfy the OP. I looked through Trembly's recent posts and found nothing. If someone provides a link to this referenced post it may provide some satisfaction for the OP.

These days we use things like sonar to detect whole icebergs and not here-say and unverifiable allegations that point to their tips. We use sonar, and then shout, "Look Here!, she's a big mother." Likewise in cases of alleged fraud and corruption we use forensic accounting and public inquests. I am quite sure that more will come out, and it needs to come out publicly before representative democracy is tossed into oblivion.

"But also the fact that that is vote buying on a massive scale with losses way above what they projected is of course reason to disband this government"

No one paid for any votes where I live this past election. It's the first time in decades. If vote buying is prerequisite for disbanding a government in Thailand then all parties need to be banned. PTP has never had a monopoly on it. An example is the American Obamacare scheme. It no doubt bought a lot of votes, yet no one is seriously calling for a ban of the US Democratic party, the urgent suspension of democracy, and the implementation of an unelected people's consul to re-write the U.S. constitution.

I'll admit that the link between vote buying and the populist rice pledging scheme = massive corruption is very popular and is often the touted dogma within the anti-government movement. Perhaps this satisfies the OP? Perhaps populist policies and true representative democracy are very unpopular with (self moderation here).

"The fact that they hid it all the time and are lying about it all the time says enough. Incompetence is not excuseable everyone said it would fail but they did it anyway and it cost Thailand its leading place as exporter and because it was about volume not quality also its reputation about quality."

I don't believe they hid anything. The fund;s for this past years pledging for this past recent rice harvest were allocated in the central budget last year. It's Suthep and the protests that lead to the current caretaker government that make those funds unavailable now. Suthep's backers cannot be mentioned, and to be sure true representative democracy is not at all popular with them.

I doubt Thailand lost its place as leading exporter solely due to the rice pledging scheme. India suddenly came into the market and Vietnam increased production.

Incompetence of governments is always a boon for opposition parties come election time. Incompetence of previous governments usually puts them into power. The OP was about corruption, not incompetence.

Robblok, you raised some good points. I'm not sure if they satisfy the OP. I'll leave that to others reading this thread.

[robblok]

@96tehtharp

I hope the points that I made will be proven by the NACC, if so the government is in real trouble. I have no love for this government but if they were honest and not as corrupt, plus a lot more transparent not hiding all the stuff, lying all the time and denying the facts I would have no problems with them.

If they play by the rules no problems, but they don't seem to do that. I just want less corruption be it a PTP government or democrat one (i like the latter more) but if voted in and playing by the rules (not like now) I would absolutely have no problems with them.

[robblok]

Funny that you equate bigger and English speaking with better. Seems like a load of B.S. a system where election programs are tested for economical feasibility is not that hard as my country the Netherlands has shown. That way you remove what is a problem here.

Actually I was saying that the larger English speaking countries don't have good democracies, the smaller ones - and perhaps Holland - are much better, less corrupt and more democratic.

You are stuck in the past and approve of corruption because its your party that does so. I say go after all corruption and would applaud corrupt officials int he party that i support to go to jail. That is kinda a fundamental difference between red thinking and real thinking.

Actually I have no ax to grind and couldn't give a stuff which corrupt elite runs the show. Just talking about their methods used to seize power so that normal (corruption-ridden) life and business can continue.

I want to improve and not dwel in the pas and think i things can never change. Corruption can get less with the right laws. Too bad if it brings a government down it will make the next one less corrupt or better at hiding it. That way corruption gets less.

Saying it can't be done or has always been so is just an excuse not to go after corrupt officials because they are in your party.. its a weak excuse.

My suggestion would be make sure the opposition gets seats in an anti corruption agency. It would keep the current government in check. Some extra transparency would be good too. Whatever government is in charge the opposition should be there to check them That is their job that is now not possible with all the scams and dealings and backrooms. So its time for a change.

Sorry I think you are totally naive.

All the laws in the world won't change anything when there are no uncorrupted agencies nor officials, corruption is so endemic to every level of society here there is no way to improve that situation.

At least not without radical changes in the hearts of the general population.

What you're saying is that replacing all the officials in the MoE stands a chance at improving the education system here. Wrong - a new crop of people with the same knowledge and attitudes will simply replace them.

IF the opposition was really genuine about getting rid of corruption, they could do that, and do it via winning elections. That is my point, how you go about winning the reins of power, not what people might dream might be the results of that change.

All it takes is intelligence, willpower and money. Their collective resources are sufficient to win elections, they just feel having to regain power that way is "beneath their dignity".

What i feel is that now corruption is not punished enough so its rampant. So tougher laws. You might call it naive and in a way your right it wont change overnight. But not doing anything and accepting corruption this much will not help either.

Corruption if found should be punished harshly, Singapore and other countries did not start out the way they are now. It took change and i feel now is a good time to change stuff.

Will it be perfect right away.. no but its a step in the right direction. Put a few politicians in jail and for sure things will change. And yes it needs a mentality change.. but change has to happen someday and it does not happen by resisting it too much like most PTP supporters. Suthep for instance wants no statue of limitation on corruption, I say go for it and if that means he gets hung with his own law.. so be it. I have no love for ANY corrupt official.

[96tehtarp]

The OP and the pro Shin support appear to be attempting to pull a Shin on us. Ignore the facts, a couple years of 'rice program topics' on the news forum and start from scratch, again.

If the OP has a real intrest, he and his friends may want to go to work and review, the ruling, findings, audit findings, attorney genral assisment, blue flag rice etc which have been made public and are presently presuing charges and investigating additional charges against government officials, private sector, and others.

Which rulings, findings, audit findings, and assessments by the Attorney General 's office point to specific examples of mass scale corruption in the rice pledging scheme. You suggest that the OP and others are ignoring the facts when in fact the OP is asking for them.

Surely This Is Thailand (TIT), and a scheme of this scale will be full of irregularities, but why doesn't anyone put forth some facts demonstrating massive scale corruption in the scheme. Where specifically is it?

Possible answers:

• We can't be specific due to Thailand's draconian libel laws.
• We can'r name names because of the Thai Criminal code (section 245).
• We can't give specific facts because of currently ongoing criminal investigations.
• We can't give them to you now, but trust us, we'll be providing them to you shortly.

All of the above would be perfectly acceptable to me and would probably satisfy the original post.

Edited February 12, 2014 by 96tehtarp

[slapout]

When you have a lock on a money making scam, racket, business, or whatever, do you advertise how it operates to the world?

Probably the only ones who know the actual steps taken that have resulted in the amount of rice in storage quoted in figures that vary by 100% by the Commerce/Finance/Ag bank/ etc, are those involved in its disappearance.

The hints from whistle blowers, monitoring agencies, etc do not make public, names and methods used. The following/ongoing investigations will be presented in court. Those found guilty will then be named, maybe. But the specific method they used to get their ill gotten gains will probably never be given to the public.

As one post alluded to, if all was above board, any prudent government would make the figures, procedure followed, monitoring methods used, etc avaliable to the distractors and the public post haste.

[Ricardo]

That's helpful, thanks. I didn't think about smuggling rice from Burma. That explains some of the losses but what about the so-called corruption, which it is claimed is soaking up vast amounts of money.

Not only Burma, but also Cambodia & Laos, are also benefiting from the higher-prices paid in Thailand.

Cambodia, run by Hun Sen, actually employed former-PM Thaksin as an economic-adviser a few years back, and now benefits from this scheme, thought up by guess-who, and implemented by Thaksin's PTP-party led by his sister/clone ?

The scheme did achieve its original purpose, to get PTP into power, but is now a financial disaster for the taxpayers/country.

Trebles all round, chaps !

[wym]

Which rulings, findings, audit findings, and assessments by the Attorney General 's office point to specific examples of mass scale corruption in the rice pledging scheme. You suggest that the OP and others are ignoring the facts when in fact the OP is asking for them.

Surely This Is Thailand (TIT), and a scheme of this scale will be full of irregularities, but why doesn't anyone put forth some facts demonstrating massive scale corruption in the scheme. Where specifically is it?

Possible answers:

• We can't be specific due to Thailand's draconian libel laws.
• We can'r name names because of the Thai Criminal code (section 245).
• We can't give specific facts because of currently ongoing criminal investigations.
• We can't give them to you now, but trust us, we'll be providing them to you shortly.

All of the above would be perfectly acceptable to me and would probably satisfy the original post.

Why wouldn't a simple "we don't know" suffice?

Again I can't imagine why you would think anyone posting here would have any specific details. . .

[wym]

What i feel is that now corruption is not punished enough so its rampant. So tougher laws. You might call it naive and in a way your right it wont change overnight. But not doing anything and accepting corruption this much will not help either.

Corruption if found should be punished harshly, Singapore and other countries did not start out the way they are now. It took change and i feel now is a good time to change stuff.

Will it be perfect right away.. no but its a step in the right direction. Put a few politicians in jail and for sure things will change. And yes it needs a mentality change.. but change has to happen someday and it does not happen by resisting it too much like most PTP supporters. Suthep for instance wants no statue of limitation on corruption, I say go for it and if that means he gets hung with his own law.. so be it. I have no love for ANY corrupt official.

My point is that there aren't any agencies or people that are free of corruption to do any such enforcement or punishing.

Singapore is a great example, perfect.

Problem is you need a forceful dictator type who is feared and loved in equal measure, and a strong desire by the people themselves for him to take care of the problem.

This benevolent dictator needs to be motivated by the welfare of the country as a whole, not just for himself and his cronies.

Thailand has none of these necessary factors.

Corrupt pseudo-democracies like we have back home would also benefit from such a regime for a while.

We don't have those factors either.

In the meantime true populist bread-and-circuses pseudo-democracy is the best possibility for us to be allowed to muddle along with at least some predictability to encourage business investment and economic growth.

Posturing and pretending that such fundamental change is possible at the moment is very very harmful to the country's interests.

Edited February 12, 2014 by wym

[robblok]

What i feel is that now corruption is not punished enough so its rampant. So tougher laws. You might call it naive and in a way your right it wont change overnight. But not doing anything and accepting corruption this much will not help either.

Corruption if found should be punished harshly, Singapore and other countries did not start out the way they are now. It took change and i feel now is a good time to change stuff.

Will it be perfect right away.. no but its a step in the right direction. Put a few politicians in jail and for sure things will change. And yes it needs a mentality change.. but change has to happen someday and it does not happen by resisting it too much like most PTP supporters. Suthep for instance wants no statue of limitation on corruption, I say go for it and if that means he gets hung with his own law.. so be it. I have no love for ANY corrupt official.

My point is that there aren't any agencies or people that are free of corruption to do any such enforcement or punishing.

Singapore is a great example, perfect.

Problem is you need a forceful dictator type who is feared and loved in equal measure, and a strong desire by the people themselves for him to take care of the problem.

This benevolent dictator needs to be motivated by the welfare of the country as a whole, not just for himself and his cronies.

Thailand has none of these necessary factors.

Corrupt pseudo-democracies like we have back home would also benefit from such a regime for a while.

We don't have those factors either.

In the meantime true populist bread-and-circuses pseudo-democracy is the best possibility for us to be allowed to muddle along with at least some predictability to encourage business investment and economic growth.

Posturing and pretending that such fundamental change is possible at the moment is very very harmful to the country's interests.

You and I will have to disagree then, i believe change is needed and now is a good time. It wont be perfect an change wont happen all at once. But keeping it like this is not a good idea.. Punishing people for crimes of corruption is a good idea top down reforms.

[wym]

But WHO is going to be willing and able to actually DO the "punishing"??

Why weren't they able and willing to do it when they were given carte blanche, a rigged constitution and had the military behind them?

[robblok]

But WHO is going to be willing and able to actually DO the "punishing"??

Why weren't they able and willing to do it when they were given carte blanche, a rigged constitution and had the military behind them?

You and I remember the times quite different. I remember the democrats forming a weak alliance with Newin so they did not have much power to do much pushing. Also the reds were on the street quite early in the term.

[wym]

And you think if they have the nerve to keep trying this time will be any different?

I think much more likely to be in fact much more so, which IMO is why the army has backed down.

For he that fights and runs away, may live to fight another day

but he, who is in battle slain, can never rise and fight again.
-- Oliver Goldsmith

[aveabeeror2]

And you think if they have the nerve to keep trying this time will be any different?

I think much more likely to be in fact much more so, which IMO is why the army has backed down.

For he that fights and runs away, may live to fight another day

but he, who is in battle slain, can never rise and fight again.

-- Oliver Goldsmith

Six comments in a row,get a life Wym.

[robblok]

And you think if they have the nerve to keep trying this time will be any different?

I think much more likely to be in fact much more so, which IMO is why the army has backed down.

For he that fights and runs away, may live to fight another day

but he, who is in battle slain, can never rise and fight again.

-- Oliver Goldsmith

Its called change Wym it sometimes happens but it will never happen if you don't try it ( Rob Blok) not as eloquent but still

Though Einstein defined insanity as trying the same time and again and expecting a different outcome.

I am just an optimist who hopes to see some change and knows for a fact that if you don't try it wont happen.

Edited February 13, 2014 by robblok

[Trembly]

I posted this before on another thread, but here it goes again :

Narrative (my brackets):

The government once announced that the sale of stockpiled rice would be done under a G2G (government to government) arrangement via a Chinese company called GSSG Import & Export Corporation, whose sole appointed agent in Thailand is Mr. Natthanit Sojirakul, a.k.a. 'Palm' who is the personal assistant of Udonthani MP Rapheephan Phongrueangrong, wife of red shirt leader Arisman Phongrueangrong.

Mr. Natthanit then in turn issued a letter formally appointing as his representative Mr. Nimol Rakdee, a.k.a. Joe, who is the right hand man of Sia Piang.

It was Mr. Nimol Rakdee's job to purchase rice from the government under the G2G scheme via the Department of Foreign Trade. Sia Piang then takes the rice which was sold at a price below market rates due to the fact that there was no public auction as per G2G regulations, and sells them to the rice mills at market rates.

The government loses money once because Sia Piang pockets the difference between the G2G price and the market rates. The rice mills then sell the rice back to the government, causing the government to lose money twice because the government is obliged to buy the rice at 40% above the market rate.

It is probably not negligence or coincidence that causes the government loses money in this way. More likely because Sia Piang (circled) is a close associate of Thaksin.

Selling the rice under a G2G scheme (to avoid a public tender) is actually a scheme to sell the rice to corporations belonging to people close to Thaksin Shinawatra.

And don't forget, the money that was lost two-fold in this way is none other than our very own tax money.

I'm still trying to dig out those articles by the independent journalists from my Facebook. Hopefully they'll make sense with Google translate because they're fairly long and detailed and I don't think I'll have the energy to translated them properly.

[Griffo63]

As the OP can I thank all contributors for their input. Some of the postings really answer the original post and things are much clearer now. Thanks again

[LarryBird]

Which rulings, findings, audit findings, and assessments by the Attorney General 's office point to specific examples of mass scale corruption in the rice pledging scheme. You suggest that the OP and others are ignoring the facts when in fact the OP is asking for them.

Surely This Is Thailand (TIT), and a scheme of this scale will be full of irregularities, but why doesn't anyone put forth some facts demonstrating massive scale corruption in the scheme. Where specifically is it?

Possible answers:

• We can't be specific due to Thailand's draconian libel laws.
• We can'r name names because of the Thai Criminal code (section 245).
• We can't give specific facts because of currently ongoing criminal investigations.
• We can't give them to you now, but trust us, we'll be providing them to you shortly.

All of the above would be perfectly acceptable to me and would probably satisfy the original post.

Why wouldn't a simple "we don't know" suffice?

Again I can't imagine why you would think anyone posting here would have any specific details. . .

p

Thats just the point. Go look in the news sub forum. Half the threads are about the rice scheme. Some people would just like to know what its actually costing the country.

[wym]

The total cost? I'm pretty sure even the key players in the scheme itself don't know that.

And personally I have very little interest in what goes on wrt Thai politics, don't really consider it any of my business, let them get on with it and leave us alone.