Gears slightly grating after clutch replacement

[cheeryble]

Hi

Yes, the clutch pressure plate was worn and got a fault which had the same effect as the clutch cable (yes cable, a Vitara) breaking....which is what I thought had happened.

Anyway I had it done by my regular local mechanic shop.

New plate, pressure plate, cable, and thrust bearing.

Only thing is, it seems that although there is enough travel in the pedal to clear and disengage and change gears, there is for example in selecting reverse from standstill, and occasionally other gear changes, a hint of, a very slight grating of gears as if the synchro is not working. I had the travel increased today but it is still not quite right.

Can anyone suggest WHY this has coincided with the clutch replacement.....it was fine before.

BTW I have no trouble getting around as I said it's slight not desperate or damaging I think, but it is not right and I would like it correct.

Also BTW it is a previously reliable shop they have several mechanics and do a lot of cars all sorts of jobs they are not amateurs.

Thanks!

Thanks!

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

Edited February 14, 2014 by cheeryble

[jackflash]

A couple of possibilities:

The travel adjustment is wrong somehow (but you seem to have covered that).

Or when they slid the gearbox shaft into the pressure plate, it's possible they bent the spline.

It's really easy to do.

They should use a dummy gearbox spline to line things up, but often they just use brute force.

There's no real cure except to take it apart and put in a new clutch plate. Much more carefully this time.

Edited February 14, 2014 by jackflash

[transam]

Your clutch is not disengaging completely. Try this, select first gear, brakes hard one and slowly lift the clutch pedal until the car wants to stall. It should be near the top of pedal release, not near the floor. Sometimes a few miles and clutch use beds the plate in and all is well.

[VocalNeal]

there is for example in selecting reverse from standstill,

I have venerable Carry and it does the same sometimes. Well reverse anyway.

How much dead play do you have in the pedal?

[denboy]

Some good comments but it seems you have tried the obvious with the adjusements.

A problem I have come accross is a simple one made by some mechanics, is that the clutch friction plate is in back to front. The raised spigot on oneside will prevent tthe plate clearing completly thus your sniicking the gears..

I think you should pressurise your mechanic to drop the box and start again.

Cheers

[cheeryble]

Great comments thankyou one and all.

On checking tonight it also has the same slight problem with gears 1>2 and 2>3 as reverse where it's most obvious when selecting from neutral.

I am going to have to get him to open it up, and I'd like to acquaint myself with what you guys are saying better.

JAckflash:

Finding it hard to visualize exactly about the spline you mention it's one job I never did myself can you somehow describe the bit you think might get damaged perhaps with a picture?

Transam and VocalNEal:

Yes if I raise the clutch pedal with brake on there is a reasonable amount of play in other words a definite "dead" space

Denboy:

Again a real possibility a back to front friction plate I again cannot visualize the spigot of which you speak I shall try to look up but if you happen to send a pic that might be good.

If I get the two possibile errors clear in my head I may be able to describe them at the shop.

THanks!

Edited February 14, 2014 by cheeryble

[sotsira]

Usually the friction plate is marked with the words "Flywheel Side" on the metal

centre near the splined hole.

[justcruisin]

Cheeryble you old git, at the coffee shop two days I told you to do the checks as advised by the above posters.

I know that simple mechanics are beyond your realm old son, but please listen and learn or as i suggested bring your car to my place and I could have remedied your "clutch problem" in under an hour.

For the posters here this cant be construed to have any sexual connotations, I have the tools to fix his car!

A very simple task.

[cheeryble]

Usually the friction plate is marked with the words "Flywheel Side" on the metal

centre near the splined hole.

Like this I see.....maybe it should be in Thai!

Good information I'm learning!

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

Edited February 15, 2014 by cheeryble

[cheeryble]

Cheeryble you old git, at the coffee shop two days I told you to do the checks as advised by the above posters.

I know that simple mechanics are beyond your realm old son, but please listen and learn or as i suggested bring your car to my place and I could have remedied your "clutch problem" in under an hour.

For the posters here this cant be construed to have any sexual connotations, I have the tools to fix his car!

A very simple task.

Haha why am I not surprised this post came at 1am......Benmore time!!

I think we can let the shop pull out the bits for inspection old chap but thanks anyway :-) and for the offer of a tool

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

Edited February 15, 2014 by cheeryble

[stubuzz]

It's unlikely the clutch plate is in backwards;they do not fit that way. You say it is cable operated, start with adjusting it.

[transam]

It's unlikely the clutch plate is in backwards;they do not fit that way. You say it is cable operated, start with adjusting it.

Most rides I have worked on the clutch will only assemble and be installed one way round.

[cheeryble]

THanks for the latest info that the plate will only go one way.

As for adjusting I'd say the clutch engages properly when it's about 50% up from the floor.

This should be more than enough for the clutch to disengage fully shouldn't it? But something's not right.

It's not that the gears are truly grating but I can feel them burring together a bit on the shifts I mentioned.

Edited February 15, 2014 by cheeryble

[jackflash]

> Finding it hard to visualize exactly about the spline you mention it's one job I never did myself can you somehow describe the bit you think might get damaged perhaps with a picture?

When you bolt the pressure plate over the clutch plate, it has to be aligned perfectly, otherwise you can't slide the gearbox spline in.

The correct method is to fit a dummy spline before you tighten the bolts. However if they don't have one, they have to use brute force.

And because the gearbox is heavy, it is really easy to let the gearbox hang on the spline and bend the clutch plate.

Here's a clutch plate and spline:

http://www.google.com.au/imgres?safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=Lb7&sa=X&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=sb&tbm=isch&tbnid=ktAbImEoI-jKMM%3A&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cdxetextbook.com%2Ftrans%2FclutchMan%2FgearLayOp%2Fgearboxop.html&docid=37a_g5GTwN4weM&imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cdxetextbook.com%2Fimages%2F350px-Gearboxop.jpg&w=350&h=280&ei=XsX_UpyQLoOBkQWatICoCA&zoom=1&ved=0CMgBEIQcMCQ&iact=rc&dur=262&page=2&start=18&ndsp=22&biw=1366&bih=616

And here's a dummy spline tool:

http://www.google.com.au/imgres?start=102&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=7GS&sa=X&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=sb&tbm=isch&tbnid=r7cLeNPYDFV6QM%3A&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.the-wizardsden.com%2Fhtml%2Fsierra_gearbox.html&docid=ntt64YFf2l--OM&imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.the-wizardsden.com%2Fassets%2Fimages%2FAvenger_clutch.jpg&w=425&h=361&ei=dsX_UrOmIceWkgX6tIGgCQ&zoom=1&ved=0CBoQhBwwBzhk&iact=rc&dur=2628&page=6&ndsp=21&biw=1366&bih=616

Edited February 15, 2014 by jackflash

[mogandave]

THanks for the latest info that the plate will only go one way.

As for adjusting I'd say the clutch engages properly when it's about 50% up from the floor.

This should be more than enough for the clutch to disengage fully shouldn't it? But something's not right.

It's not that the gears are truly grating but I can feel them burring together a bit on the shifts I mentioned.

As TD indicated, I think the pedal should be close to the top when it engages.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[cheeryble]

Thanks for the pics

As for the clutch engaging near the top I would think that would be rather uncomfortable and it certainly feels like it passes on the engine load fully to the gearbox without going too far from the centre area of pedal travel say it does the business between about 45 and 55% pedal up, but as it only takes minutes to adjust that will be the first step to check.

Stay tuned clutchsters!

[Daffy D]

A couple of possibilities:

The travel adjustment is wrong somehow (but you seem to have covered that).

Or when they slid the gearbox shaft into the pressure plate, it's possible they bent the spline.

It's really easy to do.

They should use a dummy gearbox spline to line things up, but often they just use brute force.

There's no real cure except to take it apart and put in a new clutch plate. Much more carefully this time.

Never heard of that - It is not a flimsy spindle it's the main shaft that drives the car.

Almost impossible to locate the shaft correctly using the whole gearbox. The pressure plate would have to be loose.

Have lined up the clutch plate many times using a socket extension. Don't always need a dummy shaft.

[jackflash]

> Never heard of that - It is not a flimsy spindle it's the main shaft that drives the car.

It's not the gearbox shaft which gets bent, it's the clutch plate which gets bent.

If the spline tube is bent out of square, then the clutch will drag.

> Almost impossible to locate the shaft correctly using the whole gearbox. The pressure plate would have to be loose.

Which is exactly what I've been trying to explain.

There will always be an idiot who tries to align it without the proper tool.

Edited February 16, 2014 by jackflash

[sotsira]

I agree with Jackflash, in that, incorrect alignment could damage the clutch on

initial gearbox fitting.

There are universal clutch aligning tools that are, or should, be used by mechanics

before tightening the pressure plate, this will then allow the gearbox to easily align

itself to the clutch assembly on installation.

On the other hand, there is an obvious check that nobody has mentioned, which

should be done before anything is dismantled again, and that is to check the gearbox

oil level and condition of the oil, especially if the vehicle has high mileage or age without

the knowledge of whether the gearbox oil has been changed before.

There is a possibility that oil could have leaked out of the box when it was removed and not

kept in the upright position. (coming out of the breather tube for example)

So the oil level should be checked first to know whether it could be the contributing reason

to the slight grinding of the gears when engaging.

[BSJ]

All this depends on the gearbox being the same one that came with the car!

The clutch should start to engage not far off the floor and be fully engaged about 3/4 off the floor.

I would be loath to let somchai do any work on any vehicle without me being there to supervise.

"She'll be right mate" is an Australian expression....but I have come to discover it originated in Thailand.

[cheeryble]

All good information wish I had known all this before the job was done.

Sotsira point taken the gearbox is on about 240k km, but I have certainly had it's oil replaced and also checked for level before but yes let's check the level now.

I shall get in the shop as soon as there are a couple of days I don't need the motor, and naturally keep you all informed the outcome of this detective story.

Not sure how I'm going to translate

"Did you use a clutch alignment kit?"

Edited February 16, 2014 by cheeryble

[kartman]

As it works at 50% from floor pressure plate if it's a finger type going over centre ? wrong cable allowing too much travel?

Edited February 17, 2014 by kartman

[cheeryble]

As it works at 50% from floor pressure plate if it's a finger type going over centre ? wrong cable allowing too much travel?

Sorry Kartman don't understand your first sentence about finger type going over centre. In fact is it all one sentence with a question mark in the middle by accident?

As for the cable when I first picked up the car it engaged gear far too near the floor (he said something about them taking it for a spin I said don't worry I'll check it myself and come back if a problem......well it was a problem too low.)

Then had it adjusted upwards.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

[mogandave]

So they (the mechanic) haven't driven the car?

[cheeryble]

So they (the mechanic) haven't driven the car?

I think not I think they were about to

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

[jackflash]

> "She'll be right mate" is an Australian expression....but I have come to discover it originated in Thailand.

Yes, in Thai it is "mai pen rai" :-)

The similarity has always intrigued me. Definitely a philosophy common to both cultures.

Edited February 17, 2014 by jackflash

[Lancashirelad]

As TD indicated, I think the pedal should be close to the top when it engages.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

That would indicate a worn clutch.

Source: (ex garage owner)

[Lancashirelad]

> Never heard of that - It is not a flimsy spindle it's the main shaft that drives the car.

It's not the gearbox shaft which gets bent, it's the clutch plate which gets bent.

If the spline tube is bent out of square, then the clutch will drag.

> Almost impossible to locate the shaft correctly using the whole gearbox. The pressure plate would have to be loose.

Which is exactly what I've been trying to explain.

There will always be an idiot who tries to align it without the proper tool.

If you're stuck you can make one out of a short piece of an old broom handle and some insulation tape ;-) I have one for doing series Land Rover clutches I made 30 years ago.

Edited February 23, 2014 by Lancashirelad

[Lancashirelad]

Its got clutch drag - have to come out again. Probably used a very cheap recon clutch.

Nothing at all to do with g/box oil level.

Edited February 23, 2014 by Lancashirelad

[NeverSure]

Its got clutch drag - have to come out again. Probably used a very cheap recon clutch.

Nothing at all to do with g/box oil level.

I vote this one. Something wrong with the clutch disk. Warped from heat before, bent during installation/lack of alignment tool, poor rebuild - something with that disk.