My inlaws...

[HardenedSoul]

The same as anyone else says to their kids...we didn't get on...we were incompatible...I hated her guts......that she was a prostitute is irrelevant.

I didn't ask what one would say if asked why mummy and daddy broke up but I can see where the ambiguity lies so allow me to re-phrase:

In situations like the OP's, does one tell their child/children that mother was a prostitute?

Do you feel hateful towards prostitutes?

No.

Do you?

[HardenedSoul]

He is hurting badly, and after reading a lot of bombastic drivel that some have posted on here is certainly not helping him. I realised years who, if you are alone with what appears to be huge issues weighing you down, then to talk it out is a good move, unfortunately maybe trying to "talk " on here was not such a good idea.

Many of us have lost children.

I lost 4 children to a woman in the UK.

The truth is, as a man you have few enforceable rights over your children.

If mum doesn't want you to see them, and is prepared to go the distance, you won't see them.

Anywhere in the world. Men are evil, women are good.

In the UK, after divorce, 40% of fathers never see their children again.

(Some of the Nordic countries are worse, after divorce 90% of fathers never see their children again)

My solution,

Keep having more children, with other partners, until you find a woman who doesn't want to keep them from you.

Write off the ones you are prevented from seeing.

Worked for me, may not work for everyone.

Whenever I ask you if you're still bitter about your divorce, you always deny it yet pretty much everything you write, any relationship you consider, every financial decision you make has your ex-wife and the bitterness of your divorce from her at its epicentre. No other poster drags up his previous marriage into as many posts as you do

A court in Britain wouldn't deny a father visitation rights unless there was a pretty good reason.

Of course, you could've just had a shit brief fighting your case

Still, I'm sure you said you kids weren't toddlers at the time of your separation. Your assertion that you "lost 4 children to a woman in the UK" is more likely indicative of the fact they may just want nothing to do with you.

[FiftyTwo]

Whenever I ask you if you're still bitter about your divorce, you always deny it

Still, I'm sure you said you kids weren't toddlers at the time of your separation. Your assertion that you "lost 4 children to a woman in the UK" is more likely indicative of the fact they may just want nothing to do with you.

Not bitter, but deeply disappointed, 30 years is a long time to waste.

PS

Must be hard playing the big man, when you never were a man at all.

No wife, no children, in fact a total non-participant.

Edited February 16, 2014 by FiftyTwo

[Donnie Brasco]

Bottom line here is . . . . . . do shaggy dog soap opera troll posts like this one sell/rent any more real estate to Thai Visa subscriber/hittsters or do they just provide amusing background to the flip-flop/flap-slapping of some catfish or other advisably inedible Saen Saep-dwelling bottom feeder on the floorplanks of a leaky sampan.

(Just askin', eh ;-?)

"Sometimes, 'fuggedabowdit' just means fuggedabowdit."

Edited February 16, 2014 by Donnie Brasco

[HardenedSoul]

Whenever I ask you if you're still bitter about your divorce, you always deny it

Still, I'm sure you said you kids weren't toddlers at the time of your separation. Your assertion that you "lost 4 children to a woman in the UK" is more likely indicative of the fact they may just want nothing to do with you.

Not bitter, but deeply disappointed, 30 years is a long time to waste.

PS

Must be hard playing the big man, when you never were a man at all.

No wife, no children, in fact a total non-participant.

I don't play the "big man".

As I've said many times, I've just not been interested in marriage and children and, having read so many tales of woe - both from you and other bitterly divorced posters - I think I did well to avoid them.

It's not like it's too late, is it?

I'm only mid 40s

Oh and contrary to the original draft of your reply, I'm not a jaffa..

There have been several "near misses" which I and the ladies involved saw fit to terminate because of the impact children would have had on very promising professional careers.

Not proud of those events but, hey, better than ending up like you; hosed down, cleaned out and bitter in Thailand, eh?

[FiftyTwo]

There have been several "near misses" which I and the ladies involved saw fit to terminate because of the impact children would have had on very promising professional careers.

Not proud of those events but, hey, better than ending up like you; hosed down, cleaned out and bitter in Thailand, eh?

I equate abortion with murder.

Maybe not the same game, but played in the same ballpark.

Edited February 16, 2014 by FiftyTwo

[HardenedSoul]

There have been several "near misses" which I and the ladies involved saw fit to terminate because of the impact children would have had on very promising professional careers.

Not proud of those events but, hey, better than ending up like you; hosed down, cleaned out and bitter in Thailand, eh?

I equate abortion with murder.

Maybe not the same game, but played in the same ballpark.

Excuse me for not giving a rat's arse what you equate it with.

[hellodolly]

This thread is going round in circles. People are giving advice on a problem they know nothing about. some of them may indeed have bitter experiences. The one common thread they all have is they were angels and the women was at fault.

I could tell the same story about how I lost two kids. But that would only be part of the story the rest of it is I was self centered and never took the wife or the kid's wants into consideration. In short I was not a good husband or father. I have learned from it. By the way I did not say 4 kids because the oldest were 16 and 17 and I had already lost them even though we were still living together. It was a shock to my system but I learned from it. Today the youngest is visiting me here in Thailand for the fourth or fifth time. If I go back to Canada they have a place for me to stay. That includes my ex wife who is now my best friend.

The point is yes for a month or two I cried about taking my Christmas away from me. As it was late November. But then I took stock of myself and what I had been like not what I meant to have my actions taken for I came up pretty short on the list. In admitting it and slowly changing it we all came together again. Except the wife and I just became good friends.

In my opinion this post is going round and round based on no knowledge of the true happenings in the OP life just they are doing some thing to me. Coupled with a refusal to admit he had any part in it.

Edit

Sorry not all posters have been negative in their experiences. Some actually positive darn few but there are several.

Edited February 16, 2014 by hellodolly

[larsjohnsson]

.

(Some of the Nordic countries are worse, after divorce 90% of fathers never see their children again)

That is of course not true. And not even close to the truth.

The woman or shared custody is most common after the divorce. But every father have the right to see their children again. With a few exceptions like severe drug addicts, serious criminals or pedophiles. So more than 95% will see there child after a divorce

Sent from my GT-I9152 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Sam Gold]

Thailand joined the Hague Convention in 2002 and as far as I know rules are complied with, for adoption anyway.

No, in reality it's hit or miss.

Lots of foreign parents kidnapping their kids have fled here. Only those where the "home jurisdiction" nation actively pursues enforcement through their embassy, e.g. the UK and US have had some success.

In the cases where there are Thai parents they won't send the children back but insist the case be tried here, which goes against the HC rules.

And there is no such crime in Thailand, civil matter only.

I see, interesting.

Just out of curiosity, what happens if a guy abducts his kids and manages to reach Europe (or Australia or the US)?

I always assumed that Thai authorities and his home country authorities worked together as part of the HC to catch him, fly the kids back to Thailand and prosecute the guy.

Edited February 16, 2014 by Sam Gold

[benalibina]

Well....thanks for all who commented on this topic.

My OP was IMO clear enough.

The posts which wrote that i have not provided enough info, dont take any blame myself or even worse, that i am a troll, i leave that to the respective posters.

My main point was about...why..in the FIL...they keep quiet, when in my opinion the children are not been raised on a proper way. They have no father or mother but are raised by the SIL and especially the daughters are being severely manipulated against me and alienated from me. I witnessed this myself earlier in the month when i came to try and take them with me. I was only trying to do the good thing for them. Not being brought by hating/disliking their other parent as main goal. The other reasons are important 2 ..but secondary.

If i had planned everything proper in life and would not have made the mistakes i made, this topic would have been unneccesarry.

So, i am fully aware of my part in this...believe me that that guilt has nearly put me down and out. It has also partly created the present situation. I have children however, am thus a parent. I firmly know that the children are way better of with me on almost all vital aspects in life. Based on my feeling towards myself it has felt differently though for a long period of time. Depression, lack of confidence in myself etc.. ?? Who knows.

When people play a game and 1 changes, unknowingly for the other, the rules of it....well thats what happened. I needed to adapt based on that. All concerned pay the price for it. I can be as stupid as stupid does but honesty, sincerity, trying to do the right thing for the kids IMO and loyalty, nobody can take that away from me. Same as my love for the children.

I have totally no reason to fabricate a topic, making myself look better than i am. I am just a stupid wnkr who tried to seek help from the inlaws, to no avail, and now needs to find a way to participate in the life of my kids in thailand and not anymore in my homecountry. That is clear for me, evenmore.

[Dancealot]

Well....thanks for all who commented on this topic.

I wish you will find your peace now, benalibina. I mean it.

Yours,

DAL

Edited February 16, 2014 by Dancealot

[wym]

Thailand joined the Hague Convention in 2002 and as far as I know rules are complied with, for adoption anyway.

No, in reality it's hit or miss.

Lots of foreign parents kidnapping their kids have fled here. Only those where the "home jurisdiction" nation actively pursues enforcement through their embassy, e.g. the UK and US have had some success.

In the cases where there are Thai parents they won't send the children back but insist the case be tried here, which goes against the HC rules.

And there is no such crime in Thailand, civil matter only.

I see, interesting.

Just out of curiosity, what happens if a guy abducts his kids and manages to reach Europe (or Australia or the US)?

I always assumed that Thai authorities and his home country authorities worked together as part of the HC to catch him, fly the kids back to Thailand and prosecute the guy.

No, as I said, parental kidnapping isn't even a crime here, civil matter only.

I've heard of a few cases where the back-home authorities take it upon themselves to prosecute on their own initiative, Child Protective Services having been notified by Immigration.

And certainly any action like this, including any denying of visitation rights, moving to a different location without permission of the mother etc will count against you very strongly in a custody battle, almost guaranteeing your losing unless there are very strong mitigating circumstances against the other parent too.

Note many jurisdictions don't see her being a sex worker as a negative factor, especially if her lawyer (many jurisdictions will pay for hers) can spin it so she's the victim. Some jurisdictions the "john" is the criminal more than the sex worker.

A very complex area of international law, very expensive to get the right kind of help back in your own jurisdiction.

FAR far better to get it all sorted in Thailand, once you have a proper agreement or court judgement here then it should be straightforward to register it back home.

But with child custody (unlike financial aspects) you can't really rely on a contract - unless you get a full Termination of Parental Rights executed there, she could in theory come back and challenge it anytime, arguing you were the stronger party she was under pressure, the fact you paid her counts against you. . .

[wym]

(Some of the Nordic countries are worse, after divorce 90% of fathers never see their children again)

That is of course not true. And not even close to the truth.

The woman or shared custody is most common after the divorce. But every father have the right to see their children again. With a few exceptions like severe drug addicts, serious criminals or pedophiles. So more than 95% will see there child after a divorce

Some of these "men's rights" guys are just as out there as abortion opponents in their manipulation of the truth.

May be true that some jurisdictions are slanted toward the mother, but it's not that extreme in most.

And many people genuinely do believe women are naturally better at taking care of kids, their bond is stronger to her than the man, etc.

[Dancealot]

Mr. wym: The OP just evaluated his feelings. Maybe you missed that..

[benalibina]

Many of us have lost children.

I lost 4 children to a woman in the UK.

The truth is, as a man you have few enforceable rights over your children.

If mum doesn't want you to see them, and is prepared to go the distance, you won't see them.

Anywhere in the world. Men are evil, women are good.

In the UK, after divorce, 40% of fathers never see their children again.

(Some of the Nordic countries are worse, after divorce 90% of fathers never see their children again)

No at all true here in Thailand. Just have to have time, a bit of money and most importantly faith, confidence to persist in the knowledge that the kids come first.

Giving up when there's any chance at all remaining would really be selling out their future - and your own.

In this situation the odds are very good, it's up to the OP to decide to make it happen when he's able to that's all.

You are wrong, take a look at Scott's thread "abduction of my ....... "

If the woman (and her family) are prepared to do whatever it takes, not a hope in hell.

Judges and the law can't (or won't) do a thing, you just waste your money and your life chasing a dream.

Well...maybe your right...maybe not....for me its a justified dream....at the end of the day i need to be able to live with myself.....giving up....never....take a couple of steps back....needed....horses for courses...

[wym]

[benalibina]

Correct. Absolutely. Without putting myself on a pedestral, am far from faultless, evilness...true evilness has no boundaries as i have seen myself. Many commenting on here just dont understand that my point is mainly regarding my innocent children. Added my inability till now to change it. PARENTAL ALIENATION is a true hate crime, where the hearts and minds of innocent kids will be destroyed. Seeing the reactions of many on this topic....it is understandable that my inlaws do not understand it....lesser education permitted....

[Nignoy]

When my first marriage was annulled, the inlaws made sure my exwife did not get the kids, They looked after them like their own, it was a hard time for me, the first 2 years with no id card or british passport so I was confined to Germany , I corresponded with the inlaws and children by snail mail through a teacher at a nearbye school, they never asked for a single satang, that was from 66 to 68, the marvellous relationship continues today 45 years later, my children have grandchildren, most of them earn more than me , when my 3rd wife and I visit the village we are both treated like celebrities, for my 65th birthday I was given a 5baht gold chain by my thai family, goes to showit isn't all sick buffaloes and atms!!

[Somsrisonphimai]

When my first marriage was annulled, the inlaws made sure my exwife did not get the kids, They looked after them like their own, it was a hard time for me, the first 2 years with no id card or british passport so I was confined to Germany , I corresponded with the inlaws and children by snail mail through a teacher at a nearbye school, they never asked for a single satang, that was from 66 to 68, the marvellous relationship continues today 45 years later, my children have grandchildren, most of them earn more than me , when my 3rd wife and I visit the village we are both treated like celebrities, for my 65th birthday I was given a 5baht gold chain by my thai family, goes to showit isn't all sick buffaloes and atms!!

Glad thing worked out for you.

But for OP, thing has not been kind to him in that regard. My advice to OP is be a bigger person, forgive and forget what was done in the past, move forward, and make nice with his in laws so that he can have peace and be at ease with himself. Karma is big in Thailand. What you give out is what you will get.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[Bangel72]

Your question highlights a risk for any having a family in a country that they do not have full rights.

If you are not spending a lot of time with your children during their first 7 years it's likely to them you will just be the strange farang who comes to visit, it may not be that the in-laws are actively trying to turn them against you but that they may feel someone jumping in and out of their lives is disruptive to their development so they are not pro-actively encouraging the kids to build strong bonds with you.

When you lack full rights in a country it can impact you from multiple angles,

For example you may have to compromise your career to be with your children or be far away from them to protect their financial future and that's a tough choice with pro's and con's.

The are also legal elements on who the children should stay with, I know it's a bit grim but anyone with children in Thailand needs to consider worst case scenario's such as the death of your wife and what would happen to any children, you may even want to lawyer up on this one.

Are you willing and capable of taking care of the children yourself, if not it severely limits your influence and having a family to help is a positive thing but it does come with the risks such as the situation you find yourself in.

A lot of Thai families would also see the option of a niece or nephew growing up in a western environment with a western education as a positive thing for the child and would make the sacrifice of seeing less of the child in the best interests of the child.

Keep a level head and a cool heart, consider what options are really within your control and if you personally need to make any changes to increase those options, do not use the children as leverage or pawns in disagreements though.

[HerIndoors]

Oh God I've just wasted another 8 minutes of my life reading this <deleted>.

[Tacho De Lao]

Maybe they believe we all have indestructible Buddha nature inside us anyway.

Maybe they are an emotionally destructive family?

Who knows?

You can't change them in anyway can you?

All you can really do is deal with the family situation the best you can and do what's you think is right for your kids.

Destructive....yes...but hard to believe all of the inlaws are like that and dont see it is bringing the kids nothing.

Tried for around 9 months but see no change....hence my topic.

Right for kids is, get them away from the emotional destructive environment they are in....tried this month.....to no avail......

You have to be proactive. The fact is so many kids here get raised without fathers, a lot seem to think its OK and they don't see how(in my opinion) some problems with the people running around Thailand is because they had no father or even father figure. Its all mai pen arai and what is is what is. The other sad fact is there is rarely a "logical disucssion" to be had about such matters. You can't hope for them to understand or believe you want to be part of their lives as 99% of Thai guys bail as soon as the test comes back positive. So yes, do talk about withholding money until you get the time with them you want. You probably would be best served by going through legal channels is there are any for fathers who actually want to be involved in their kids lives even if the are not with mom any more. To get a better answer you need to answser some of the other questions about her family and yes her line of work. Why does mom need to work and not be there if you are supporting them enough? If you are not able to, thats OK as long as you are doing all you can. Get "legal" custody or some rights declared(again if that is possbile here. I worry its not as again Logic etc. Not used to a man wanting to be in their kids lives) so you get visitation. If your ex is a simple girl then a logical discussion probably won't work with her but you have to try anyway. She is the key, the others will have to do what she tells them to do as she is their mother. So if you come and say I want to take all three of them with me for a week and mom says OK then you are set and that time needs to be spent telling all of them no matter what, I am your dad and want to be in your lives. After some time they will hopefully lose some of the poison no doubt being poured in their ears by sisters and other relatives. Start the legal stuff behind the scenes. I hope you have copies of birth certicficates etc, I believe I have heard that there is a legal way(money money) of declaring yourself as the father and I think this might make it easier to just get to court etc and get legal visitation etc. Get a cheap Nokia and since it costs nothing to receive calls, try to call everyday. Kids figure stuff out and if the relatives are conspiring against you, eventually your actions will show the kids that the words used towards you don't match your actions.

[hellodolly]

When my first marriage was annulled, the inlaws made sure my exwife did not get the kids, They looked after them like their own, it was a hard time for me, the first 2 years with no id card or british passport so I was confined to Germany , I corresponded with the inlaws and children by snail mail through a teacher at a nearbye school, they never asked for a single satang, that was from 66 to 68, the marvellous relationship continues today 45 years later, my children have grandchildren, most of them earn more than me , when my 3rd wife and I visit the village we are both treated like celebrities, for my 65th birthday I was given a 5baht gold chain by my thai family, goes to showit isn't all sick buffaloes and atms!!

Glad thing worked out for you.

But for OP, thing has not been kind to him in that regard. My advice to OP is be a bigger person, forgive and forget what was done in the past, move forward, and make nice with his in laws so that he can have peace and be at ease with himself. Karma is big in Thailand. What you give out is what you will get.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

But for OP, thing has not been kind to him in that regard. My advice to OP is be a bigger person, forgive and forget what was done in the past, move forward, and make nice with his in laws so that he can have peace and be at ease with himself. Karma is big in Thailand. What you give out is what you will get

That is exactly what I have been asking through this whole thread. What did he do to get this?

It was like going out and talking to a telephone pole.

All he gives is how smart he is and how children should have their father.

Not one single reason why he should be the provider if in deed he is giving them any money. For all we know he is not and the mother is sending money back to the sister in law to help defer the expenses. He has not mentioned that either. Until one knows the whole story both sides one can not make a judgement but the flat out refusal to give any reason for him to have them just because he is the father. Not buying it.

I have seen to many cases just like his where the children where better off with the father on the other side of the planet. Also the same goes for mothers. They can be just as bad a parent as a father. I even knew one fellow personally who had a mother that sexually abused him by making him sleep with her when he was just coming into puberty. 20 years later he was still having problems with it.

I am not accusing him of any thing but I notice the son has no problem with him it is just the girls.

I will not post here again as I know a dead end when I see it. He gives no facts and people feel sorry for him. When if the truth was really known they might feel he doesn't deserve them. As I said in my earlier post I was man enough to look art my part in it and regain the love of my children by me doing the changing.

[kingstonkid]

What is my ability in English skills have to do with my view on qualification of raising a child? Ok, I might not have the same level of understanding about raising the child since I do not have one, but I don't think that having education and being from the west make one more qualify than the one without education, without money or without western view. I did no mean that you are not qualify.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Kids have 1 mother and 1 father...that so difficult to understand ? If i want to raise, and am more than qualified to it, why would their mother dump the kids with her sister.....when she leaves them ? Without informing me.... But for many thais...i should be happy that the sister looks after them....yeah right ...am not.

Benalbina

You may have said this in other posts but you need to be clear please.

How much time do you spend in Thailand?

Where were you when your ex decided to take the kids back home to her family and why did you not step up.

How much time do you want to or can you spend in thailand?

Are you looking to take the kids back to your country?

What exactly do you see as the outcome?

I know Sirthai thinks he has all the answers but you still have not answered my questions earlier (unless of course you are Sirthia)

The girls are going to grow up to be Thai ladies. You have basically agreed to that when you said that you agreed to any sin sot going to your ex.

To take them out of the country are you not going to require either a court order or your ex'ssignature.

I agree with an earlier post.

The talk and bashing of people that you and others are doing is not helping anyone including you.

I would suggest that if you have not already get off your rear and get it into gear.

What is your goal?

Are you going to be able to achieve it? ie if it means taking them out of the country can you afford it and provide for them. If it means leaving them here is there other alternatives to inlaws

Once you have decided on these then decide what you have to do to acheive it and start doing it outside of Thaivisa.

PS

No offence but i think that you owe Somsrisonphimai an apology. She was giving you a view point that few of us no matter how long they have been here can. A thai ladies.

[benalibina]

What is my ability in English skills have to do with my view on qualification of raising a child? Ok, I might not have the same level of understanding about raising the child since I do not have one, but I don't think that having education and being from the west make one more qualify than the one without education, without money or without western view. I did no mean that you are not qualify.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Kids have 1 mother and 1 father...that so difficult to understand ? If i want to raise, and am more than qualified to it, why would their mother dump the kids with her sister.....when she leaves them ? Without informing me.... But for many thais...i should be happy that the sister looks after them....yeah right ...am not.

Benalbina

You may have said this in other posts but you need to be clear please.

How much time do you spend in Thailand?

Where were you when your ex decided to take the kids back home to her family and why did you not step up.

How much time do you want to or can you spend in thailand?

Are you looking to take the kids back to your country?

What exactly do you see as the outcome?

I know Sirthai thinks he has all the answers but you still have not answered my questions earlier (unless of course you are Sirthia)

The girls are going to grow up to be Thai ladies. You have basically agreed to that when you said that you agreed to any sin sot going to your ex.

To take them out of the country are you not going to require either a court order or your ex'ssignature.

I agree with an earlier post.

The talk and bashing of people that you and others are doing is not helping anyone including you.

I would suggest that if you have not already get off your rear and get it into gear.

What is your goal?

Are you going to be able to achieve it? ie if it means taking them out of the country can you afford it and provide for them. If it means leaving them here is there other alternatives to inlaws

Once you have decided on these then decide what you have to do to acheive it and start doing it outside of Thaivisa.

PS

No offence but i think that you owe Somsrisonphimai an apology. She was giving you a view point that few of us no matter how long they have been here can. A thai ladies.

I already answered it in post 151 and 195.

Sinsod ?

Why should i owe an apology to someone who has a different opinion than mine ?

Sirthai ? Dunno who or what u are talking about.

About excluding Thaivisa about my endavours....correct.

Thanks for the interest.

[wym]

One more time!

He's not actually asking for advice, not willing to share critical details.

He just wants confirmation of his feelings and the answer to his question "why oh why" which of course is "because they are evil".

Actually being able to do something about it will take resources he doesn't yet have.

People actually seeking to help from a practical POV should contact him via PM.