Hmmm... Having Second Thoughts About BMW After Reading This Article

[RubberSideDown]

A little more info- Consumer Reports didn't get enough of a sample size to include Yamaha or Triumph, but the numbers they did get suggested that Yamaha was in line with the other Japanese brands, and Triumph was below average.

[jackcorbett]

The reason that Mercedes went down the reliability toilet is that the accountants took over, China doesn't have that problem.

No, their problems are more entrenched and cultural.

The Chinese would rather cheat someone out of 100$ than make 200$ legally and fairly. It's in their blood. Remember the Baby Milk Formula poisonings?

Honesty, fairplay and giving someone a decent shake are considered weaknesses to be exploited.

Add in wanting vengence for historical wrongdongs against them and cultural xenophobia and you have some idea of their business outlook.

They haven't had an original idea since footbinding and female infanticide. They are world leaders in industrial espionage and steal all the innovation from the west and Japan. They don't even try to hide it.

They can assemble products (iPhone etc.) to an acceptable standard as long as they're closely supervised by outsiders.

Invention and innovation are as alien to them as apple pie and ice cream. You see those brilliant Chinese classical musicians. Can play the pieces perfectly.

Ask them to write an original piece and they wouldn't know where to begin.

Just my 2 cents.

Agreed 100 percent and then some. Don't even get me started on all my bad experiences and those of my friends with Chinese or Chinese Thais. I just paid nearly 2000 dollars for a top of the line Zeiss Ikon binoculars rather than get another Nikon which is probably just as good in their top of the line models. My reason is nearly all Nikon binoculars are now made in China, and now that I'm in Japan for a short visit, I'm seeing that two other Japanese binocular manufacturers state "Japanese" then in the fine print, "Made in China". I will try to avoid buying Chinese whenever possible (but often this is impossible) because of all the reasons you have mentioned plus a few of my own.

[ktm jeff]

The reason Yamaha , Honda bikes ,and bike parts, made in China are dearer than Lifan/Keeway/M-bike etc , that are also made in China and other countries , is that Yamaha/Honda ask for a higher build quality , and oversee this - adding to the cost. BUT , as AllanB said , the Chinese have independent engineers and their quality is now higher than many people seem willing to accept. The accountants have caused Honda / BMW etc to fall from grace (im a massive Mercedes fan but they are not what they once were ).If we ask for cheap cars/bikes , then somewhere , the quality has to reduce , and its getting close to the point where some "Chinese" factories will catch-up , even overtake , the Japanese. Only a select few of the very top makes will continue to build (almost by hand)top quality products (in any field) - but at a top price - selling only to the few that are willing to pay top money.

[mania]

You know at the end of the day of course one worries about

any problems reported with any prospect model of bike or car for that matter.

Also Because these things are not cheap here so given the prices

we expect a level of after sale service to match

What is level of after sale, service competency here on the high end bikes like?

Of course if one is mechanically inclined & the bike/car is not to

loaded with electronic gadgetry then there is the do it yourself aspect.

So that's cool where possible

But many of today's high end bikes/cars require factory trained techs

with diagnostic tools that the average rider no matter how mechanically inclined

is going to own

This is something I would look hard at if I were buying high end here.

What is the level of after sale competency

RSD: how does it look for BMW bikes here in Thailand?

[RubberSideDown]

This is something I would look hard at if I were buying high end here.

What is the level of after sale competency

RSD: how does it look for BMW bikes here in Thailand?

I talked with their head motorcycle tech who was supposed to have attended overseas training sessions- I came prepared with some questions (that I already knew the answers to) regarding technical aspects specific to the bike I want- I got satisfactory answers, which made me feel a bit better about buying a bike that relies so heavily on electronics, but I can only speak as to their words, not their actions.

Bottom line is that I believe there's at least one guy in town who knows his stuff as far as BMW is concerned. Note that there was a single Thai Kawasaki tech (at least when I was getting my bike set up in July) who had attended the training session for the ZX-14R in Japan, and he was the only one who really knew the bike, and fortunately the dealership persuaded him to take a look at it before delivering it (and it did arrive in perfect condition)- even if a model is available through the authorized manufacturer in LOS, if there aren't too many of them around, it won't be easy to find someone familiar with it, as opposed to a more popular model that they probably see several times per week.

[AllanB]

The reason that Mercedes went down the reliability toilet is that the accountants took over, China doesn't have that problem.

No, their problems are more entrenched and cultural.

The Chinese would rather cheat someone out of 100$ than make 200$ legally and fairly. It's in their blood. Remember the Baby Milk Formula poisonings?

Honesty, fairplay and giving someone a decent shake are considered weaknesses to be exploited.

Add in wanting vengence for historical wrongdongs against them and cultural xenophobia and you have some idea of their business outlook.

They haven't had an original idea since footbinding and female infanticide. They are world leaders in industrial espionage and steal all the innovation from the west and Japan. They don't even try to hide it.

They can assemble products (iPhone etc.) to an acceptable standard as long as they're closely supervised by outsiders.

Invention and innovation are as alien to them as apple pie and ice cream. You see those brilliant Chinese classical musicians. Can play the pieces perfectly.

Ask them to write an original piece and they wouldn't know where to begin.

Just my 2 cents.

I think you have been reading too much western press propaganda, China is a country of a billion people and you paint a whole nation based on one scandal. Ever heard of a company called Nestle from a European country of less than 8 million, have a look back to what they have been up to over the years, including causing the deaths of millions of babies in Africa with their milk formula.

And when it comes to copying, Japan have been doing a pretty good job there for over half a century and at the same to banning (or heavily restricting) the very products they are copying.

Since we are talking about a German company, not exactly squeaky there over the past few decades (don't mention the war), nor indeed Japan.

Seems the Chinese could learn a thing or two from you when it comes to xenophobia.

Perhaps there is a clue in your final statement, those brilliant Chinese can play a classical piece perfectly, perhaps that level of perfection will filter through and manifest itself in perfect machines of the future. By the way, no one in the west has written an original classical piece in over a century either, that is why they call it "classical".

[H1w4yR1da]

You know as well as I do of multiple scandals involving Chinese companies. The one I mentioned was just one example.

So criticizing China makes me xenophobic? You sound like some ethnic minorities in the west, constantly playing the race card when their bad behavior is pointed out.

Yes, western companies have had their scandals but the behavior is not as entrenched in the west's culture as it now is in China. 'Now' being the operative word.

What next? You going to call me a racist? Is China a special country above any forms of criticism?

It appears your reading comprehension is slightly lacking as I can't remember writing the word 'classical' in reference to the inability of Chinese musicians to create, instead of just copy. Just because they play classical music doesn't prevent them writing music of any form.

As to your final sentence, instead of trying to be a smart arse, may I direct you to this webpage before you make an even bigger <deleted> of yourself?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_music

You'll find the 'History' tab most enlightening as to the era 'Classical' music encompasses.

[namdocmai]

Have you seen the made in China copy BMW car? Looks exactly the same as the original one except all the hi-tec technology is missing. That's how they can build cars in China. They don't do the research and development about safety or whatever only the look counts. Well let them drive those things, one dog on the road and that car is totall loss.

Germans are still very good in technology, take the Siemens skytrain in BKK for example, i can't think of anything that is not perfect on that. I don't know how old it is now but still looks and drives like a brand new train. I bet the chinese can't build that with the same quality and durability.

The milk-scandals from company's like Nestle are a big shame, but if you have loads of milkpowder in many different quality's, guess who is going to get the worse one? Right, the one with the least money/knowledge. Now the chinese buy all the supermarkets empty in Europe for babymilk. Sometimes supermarkets don't even have babymilk left for the Europeans themselves because Chinese bought all their stocks. They are happy to pay the double price of that in China for their only child. It's just a matter of time before the Chinese find out how bad it is to be the producer for the whole world. When their rivers are poisoned, air even more polluted and water full of bad stuff it is to late for them but everything comes with a price. That's the reason why we let them produce everything after all.

Bmw and Merc are perfect cars for big (read fat) people though. In Thailand i see them growing every year and if you are fat you won't fit well in a Japanese car. Fat people won't buy motorbikes at all so there still will be clients for the german cars. Also Chinese like to eat so there's another big market.

I also like motorbikes and have the money for any bike but i won't buy one. Bmw should make very small motorbikes that can ride in traffic jam. Then the Thai will sure buy them i guess. A small bike, big wheels,soft seat, backrest, boardcomputer, remote control alarm,phoneholder, soidog bumper like a bullbar or something, heavy duty, good horn, foldable mirrors, good storage, LED lights that never break down, tires that can repair themselves, automatic blinkers (like i had 25 years ago allready) and look fancy.

Why do they only make huge motorbikes? I don't need that in Thailand and in Europe i never ride my bike because it always rains or is cold. Also speedingcamera's on every junction ruin my day so i didn't use the bike for 5 years in row.

[namdocmai]

x

[yankee99]

Have you seen the made in China copy BMW car? Looks exactly the same as the original one except all the hi-tec technology is missing. That's how they can build cars in China. They don't do the research and development about safety or whatever only the look counts. Well let them drive those things, one dog on the road and that car is totall loss.

Germans are still very good in technology, take the Siemens skytrain in BKK for example, i can't think of anything that is not perfect on that. I don't know how old it is now but still looks and drives like a brand new train. I bet the chinese can't build that with the same quality and durability.

The milk-scandals from company's like Nestle are a big shame, but if you have loads of milkpowder in many different quality's, guess who is going to get the worse one? Right, the one with the least money/knowledge. Now the chinese buy all the supermarkets empty in Europe for babymilk. Sometimes supermarkets don't even have babymilk left for the Europeans themselves because Chinese bought all their stocks. They are happy to pay the double price of that in China for their only child. It's just a matter of time before the Chinese find out how bad it is to be the producer for the whole world. When their rivers are poisoned, air even more polluted and water full of bad stuff it is to late for them but everything comes with a price. That's the reason why we let them produce everything after all.

Bmw and Merc are perfect cars for big (read fat) people though. In Thailand i see them growing every year and if you are fat you won't fit well in a Japanese car. Fat people won't buy motorbikes at all so there still will be clients for the german cars. Also Chinese like to eat so there's another big market.

I also like motorbikes and have the money for any bike but i won't buy one. Bmw should make very small motorbikes that can ride in traffic jam. Then the Thai will sure buy them i guess. A small bike, big wheels,soft seat, backrest, boardcomputer, remote control alarm,phoneholder, soidog bumper like a bullbar or something, heavy duty, good horn, foldable mirrors, good storage, LED lights that never break down, tires that can repair themselves, automatic blinkers (like i had 25 years ago allready) and look fancy.

Why do they only make huge motorbikes? I don't need that in Thailand and in Europe i never ride my bike because it always rains or is cold. Also speedingcamera's on every junction ruin my day so i didn't use the bike for 5 years in row.

Are you joking! I was recently in guangzhou and the train system there puts Thailand's to shame. Not only is their subway light years ahead but their high speed train does too.

[brfsa2]

I was recently in Beijing as well. I can say that their high speed trains are European level or better. I even took the normal cheap trains, they were ok, old but working great and smooth.

I took a ride in some chinese brand cars and I was so impressed.

there are many craps made in china, but there are some very good things made there better than anyone else.

[Nickymaster]

The reason that Mercedes went down the reliability toilet is that the accountants took over, China doesn't have that problem.

No, their problems are more entrenched and cultural.

The Chinese would rather cheat someone out of 100$ than make 200$ legally and fairly. It's in their blood. Remember the Baby Milk Formula poisonings?

Honesty, fairplay and giving someone a decent shake are considered weaknesses to be exploited.

Add in wanting vengence for historical wrongdongs against them and cultural xenophobia and you have some idea of their business outlook.

They haven't had an original idea since footbinding and female infanticide. They are world leaders in industrial espionage and steal all the innovation from the west and Japan. They don't even try to hide it.

They can assemble products (iPhone etc.) to an acceptable standard as long as they're closely supervised by outsiders.

Invention and innovation are as alien to them as apple pie and ice cream. You see those brilliant Chinese classical musicians. Can play the pieces perfectly.

Ask them to write an original piece and they wouldn't know where to begin.

Just my 2 cents.

Nice story for in a bar. But in reality it's not that extreme.

I don't know about your business experience with the Chinese but I have been doing business with them (also in China) for many years and the majority of the companies and people know very well that if you cheat in business customers will not come back.

How have I been able to build long term business partners if THE CHINESE would rather cheat?

I am not saying that all Chinese are honest business people but they are smart enough to know what it takes to have a customer come back.

[namdocmai]

Well i sure am not impressed by the trains in Europe, i haven't used the new superfast one though. Compared to the trains that i know in Europe the skytrain in BKK is much better. But i wonder who built that supertrain in Beijing or Guangzhou? Did the chinese get help with that from Germans or Japanese?

Actually only the skytrain in Thailand is something that impresses me because it is a masterpiece. For the rest nothing is of that standard, sure not the boats, airport or trainsystem. The metro is allright but there are no toilets and no good information.

About cheating customers i would give that card rather to the Thai then to Chinese. Not that the Thai always opt to cheat a customer but they have no idea what it's like to get a real good service. I would rather have a good service instead of a sexy young girl helping me and i don't care for the free lemonade and a dry cooky.. Also i don't like to wait and that's the case all the time with Thai salespeople. When you look at the restaurants in BKK where there is always a qeue then they are all owned by Non-Thai. Thai don't see the use of returning customers while that is very important.

[RubberSideDown]

Who cares about trains?

When I was at the Bike Show I took a really close look at the Benelli display- I saw poor fit-and-finish and the beginnings of rust spots at exhaust system welds- the Kawasaki display was a night-and-day difference- if that was an example of their best available craftsmanship (everybody wants to put out their best at a show), I was unimpressed.

499K and it didn't look nicely put together at all:

275K and it looked fantastic:

[H1w4yR1da]

Nice story for in a bar. But in reality it's not that extreme.

I don't know about your business experience with the Chinese but I have been doing business with them (also in China) for many years and the majority of the companies and people know very well that if you cheat in business customers will not come back.

How have I been able to build long term business partners if THE CHINESE would rather cheat?

I am not saying that all Chinese are honest business people but they are smart enough to know what it takes to have a customer come back.

Glad you've made lots of dough doing business with the Chinese. Well done! Some cynical ones might interpret that as just another greedy western businessman exporting much needed jobs to China.

But my point is more towards the innovation and theft of patents and ideas from the west which has been proven to lead to the PLA.

Suzuki GSX-R1000 L3 182 hp in-line 4 Superbike

[AllanB]

The world revolves around propaganda and bullshit, north, south, east and west, it's all the same ...and so the Chinese are copying, they learned that from the Japs. They learned that if you spend you time and money developing production techniques rather than product development, you will make someone else's product better and cheaper...and as a consequence sell more and make more money.

I agree that Chinese BMW's or their bikes for that matter aren't as good as the real thing, but would add one word..."yet".

Go back a few decades and exactly the same was true about Japanese products (Jap-Crap), where at the same time Britain ruled the world in motorcycle technology and build quality.

Now we build the best racing cars, where two British guys have been responsible for most of the F1 championships over the past 20 years and now we merely assemble Japanese cars.

I have played my part in criticising Chinese bikes on this forum and it is based on what I see now, but then I swore I would never buy a Japanese bike. The reason I now have one is that I can't afford a British bike here and you have to go with the flow if you want to live in someone else's country.

By the way Nestle weren't responsible of the African baby deaths by producing sub-standard products, the babies died of malnutrition. That is still going on too and I haven't forgotten what they did to Kit-kat either!!!!

[onthedarkside]

Off topic trolls removed

[BirdsandBooze]

Who cares about trains?

When I was at the Bike Show I took a really close look at the Benelli display- I saw poor fit-and-finish and the beginnings of rust spots at exhaust system welds- the Kawasaki display was a night-and-day difference- if that was an example of their best available craftsmanship (everybody wants to put out their best at a show), I was unimpressed.

499K and it didn't look nicely put together at all:

image.jpg

275K and it looked fantastic:

image.jpg

The Benelli Tre in the picture is manufactured at the Benelli factory in Italy.

[RubberSideDown]

Who cares about trains?

When I was at the Bike Show I took a really close look at the Benelli display- I saw poor fit-and-finish and the beginnings of rust spots at exhaust system welds- the Kawasaki display was a night-and-day difference- if that was an example of their best available craftsmanship (everybody wants to put out their best at a show), I was unimpressed.

499K and it didn't look nicely put together at all:

image.jpg

275K and it looked fantastic:

image.jpg

The Benelli Tre in the picture is manufactured at the Benelli factory in Italy.

Then I would say Benelli has some problems if that's the best they can manage from Italy. Their other bikes on display were of similar quality- 499K for the bike in the pic seemed extremely excessive considering the other bikes (from other manufacturers) in the same price ballpark.

[JonnyF]

Who cares about trains?

When I was at the Bike Show I took a really close look at the Benelli display- I saw poor fit-and-finish and the beginnings of rust spots at exhaust system welds- the Kawasaki display was a night-and-day difference- if that was an example of their best available craftsmanship (everybody wants to put out their best at a show), I was unimpressed.

499K and it didn't look nicely put together at all:

image.jpg

275K and it looked fantastic:

image.jpg

The Z800 is 375k, but still represents much better value in my opinion.

Talking of the motor show, it was pretty disappointing BMW didn't have an S1000RR to see there as well. Even Suzuki had examples of their big imported bikes...

[RubberSideDown]

^

Yup- 375K- typo on my part.

The reason I went to the show was to see the BMW bikes, and I was disappointed as well. I went to Barcelona Motors right after, and they happened to have the HP4 on the floor, which (judging from your experience) was pretty lucky.

Not the greatest pic, but it looked brand new- I don't think it was a customer's bike:

[Nickymaster]

Off topic trolls removed

Really? For telling somebody that their comment (addressed to me) is childish?

[ktm jeff]

Benelli has radial brakes , fancy swing arm Italian style that NO-ONE does better etc etc , Kawasaki has standard brakes and a swing arm that looks like a piece of scrap angle iron .If you cant afford the extra £2,000 , then buy the Z 800 (im sure its an adequate bike) but it wouldnt be my choice.

[RubberSideDown]

^

That post was to show the visual difference- for the price disparity between those two models, I would hope the Benelli would offer something more.

I wouldn't buy a Benelli due to the fit-and-finish I had the chance to see first-hand- if you want to compare bikes closer in price, would you buy a Benelli 899 for 550K or a Z1000 for 600K? I'd take the Kawi in a heartbeat (in fact I did buy a Kawi, though not the Z1000).

[Wong!]

The world revolves around propaganda and bullshit, north, south, east and west, it's all the same ...and so the Chinese are copying, they learned that from the Japs. They learned that if you spend you time and money developing production techniques rather than product development, you will make someone else's product better and cheaper...and as a consequence sell more and make more money.

I agree that Chinese BMW's or their bikes for that matter aren't as good as the real thing, but would add one word..."yet".

Go back a few decades and exactly the same was true about Japanese products (Jap-Crap), where at the same time Britain ruled the world in motorcycle technology and build quality.

Now we build the best racing cars, where two British guys have been responsible for most of the F1 championships over the past 20 years and now we merely assemble Japanese cars.

I have played my part in criticising Chinese bikes on this forum and it is based on what I see now, but then I swore I would never buy a Japanese bike. The reason I now have one is that I can't afford a British bike here and you have to go with the flow if you want to live in someone else's country.

By the way Nestle weren't responsible of the African baby deaths by producing sub-standard products, the babies died of malnutrition. That is still going on too and I haven't forgotten what they did to Kit-kat either!!!!

At the beginning of the 20th Century 'Made in Germany' was then the same as 'Made in China' now. China has started to get it's act together in many areas and is also starting to innovate. Give it 20 years and we'll all be wishing we could get our hands on a Lifan 250bhp 1 litre superbike.

I wouldn't touch them with a barge-pole now, though.

[ktm jeff]

RSD , given the choice i would go for the Italian style - and refit the panels LOL. The Kawasaki may sell more because people perceive it as better in some way , but the Benelli looks so good , and they wont become common - i also like things a little different !.Owning rare Italian exotica does bring with it some issues that you either accept and deal with, or buy something main- stream. Im passionate with some bikes so can buy with my heart. Good choice with your Kawasaki 1400 BTW - super sport tourer.

[RubberSideDown]

^

I understand your point, but anyone who buys something other than a mid-sized standard bike is going with their 'heart'- I didn't pick my bike for its practicality, and it sure isn't 'mainstream' or 'common'.

I think Kawasaki sells more bikes because they offer way more value in terms of quality and performance than other brands (though Honda is coming out with some cool stuff as well, but they need to do a bit more to catch up- the restricted CBR1000RR isn't enough).

I don't like the idea of 'issues' in terms of negatives that mean potential problems- the changes I made to my bike (exhaust, ECU flash, etc) weren't because they represented possible future faults- the stock hardware was up to the job, but I wanted to drop weight and add power. When it comes to being 'better', it's more than perception - reliability isn't something in the eye of the beholder. I'm basing this on what I saw and not on actual experience, of course, but I have a decent eye, and I was just underwhelmed by what I saw as it seemed to be not up-to-par as far as fit-and-finish were concerned.

I was a bit disappointed by what Benelli had to show me- if I were to go Italian, I think I'd have to buy a Ducati (I looked at the Panigale but I couldn't get comfortable on it). Maybe what I saw at the Expo were pre-production units and the quality has improved.

Best of luck with your bike, though- hopefully you won't have any of the issues you might be expecting.

[mania]

if I were to go Italian, I think I'd have to buy a Ducati

I also like the Panigale but would lean towards the 899 for here in Thailand

There is another nice Italian out there

Not sure if they have any service here though

PS: Speaking of BMW did you see Michael Dunlop is on one for IOM TT this year?

That should be good for BMW

TT star Michael Dunlop in factory BMW deal for 2014

[ktm jeff]

RSD , i wouldnt have thought they were pre-production units - but even so - you point out problems that shouldnt be there on a bike of this price. Benelli needs to make better first impressions. Their engineering is great but final inspection leaves something to be desired.It can , and does , put some people off.Lets blame Italian passion.I dont have a TNT but a very limited version of their Tornado 900 TRE RS (in "flip/pearl" yellow)- rare standard colour , thats on display in my living room at a home in England! The earlier version of this bike wasnt without some small issues - addressed on the later models. Ducati Panigale is a superb bike - i looked at one in Pattaya at 1,650,000 baht - but i didnt buy. Have had 999,s (good) and 749,s (even better) but now ride Aprilia RSV Factory. This is my touring bike! - up to 10,000 KM per year , no problems ,although your 1400 would be more "suitable" HA HA.Yes , your bike isnt mainstream ,but even though there are (may be)more "suitable" bikes you could have boughr - you went with a bike that EXCITES you. That is the right decision! Im inclined to work around the problem of comfort and luggage ,or lack of!

[paz]

Benelli has radial brakes , fancy swing arm Italian style that NO-ONE does better etc etc , Kawasaki has standard brakes and a swing arm that looks like a piece of scrap angle iron .If you cant afford the extra £2,000 , then buy the Z 800 (im sure its an adequate bike) but it wouldnt be my choice.

Benelli has Chinese manufactured crap this just the copy of all the cool stuff that you mentioned.

If you can;t see from far away that the geometry is just weird, get close, look at the weldings, look at the texture of the materials, look at the plastics, the cable routing, look and learn.

Oh and if you buy into, you will be charged dearly for the illusion.