Hmmm... Having Second Thoughts About BMW After Reading This Article

[RubberSideDown]

I knew they didn't have the best rep for quality control, but the new article from Consumer Reports is pretty damning:

Interesting how Kawi and Yamaha finished ahead of Honda (no mention of Suzuki):

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/02/17/is-harley-davidson-the-worst-motorcycle-money-can.aspx

[Khon Thai Ben Khon Dee]

Not mention an already shaky reputation in Thailand.

Though that is mainly down to individuals employed there, though the response was more than wanting until Munich was contacted by customers.

You know about the parts scandal of customers having their parts stolen and replaced with god knows what during services etc. about 2 years ago?

[VocalNeal]

It is about problems reported what about problems not reported. Maybe BMW owners are more picky?

You know about the parts scandal of customers having their parts stolen and replaced with god knows what during services etc. about 2 years ago?

This happens all over in Thailand and other countries in Asia. "Mr Hyundai" made his money during the occupation by cheating Japanese officers who's cars he fixed.

From the little I know here about BMW here, there is one good dealer which specializes in bikes and has done since the beginning and then the others that are offshoots of the cars distributor.

Could also be that BMW are a bit to high tech for Asia. Have an acquaintance who had newn 800 vertical twin and the oil light kept flickering. He took it to "BMW" and they changed the sender, then something else. In the end he fixed it himself buy putting in the oil that it stated in the manual and not the oil that Thai BMW thought it should have for Thailand.

Edited February 18, 2014 by VocalNeal

[RubberSideDown]

This survey would have polled North American motorcycle owners (where proper factory-authorized service wouldn't be a problem), so the problems that plague Thailand and other similar countries wouldn't enter into it as far as repairs go- the article did mention that accessories are a major factor, so that could explain some of the BMW discrepancy (many owners of their bikes trick them out quite a bit).

[JonnyF]

It is about problems reported what about problems not reported. Maybe BMW owners are more picky?

You know about the parts scandal of customers having their parts stolen and replaced with god knows what during services etc. about 2 years ago?

This happens all over in Thailand and other countries in Asia. "Mr Hyundai" made his money during the occupation by cheating Japanese officers who's cars he fixed.

From the little I know here about BMW here, there is one good dealer which specializes in bikes and has done since the beginning and then the others that are offshoots of the cars distributor.

Could also be that BMW are a bit to high tech for Asia. Have an acquaintance who had newn 800 vertical twin and the oil light kept flickering. He took it to "BMW" and they changed the sender, then something else. In the end he fixed it himself buy putting in the oil that it stated in the manual and not the oil that Thai BMW thought it should have for Thailand.

It's a good point about the technology. I often wonder what would happen if something went wrong with something like the DCT, would they really know where to even start looking given the number of bikes they sell and service here?

Out of interest, who is the 'one good dealer' you're referring to? I always thought Barcelona were the main dealer but they were also the dealer that I heard was related to the parts swapping scam.

My personal experience with Barcelona was 2-3 months ago when I was considering a S1000RR and contacted them but they didn't have a show bike for me to look at. So they promised to call me next time a customers bike was in for a service so I could go and look at it. I followed up with them twice over the course of a couple of weeks (the second time they told me a customer had just collected his bike and I'd missed it!) and then asked them again to call me when one came in. I haven't heard from them since, which kind of put me off the idea of buying one - if that is the way they deal with you before they get your money then it's makes you wonder what the after sales service would be like... Again, could just be that one sales guy and not necessarily indicative of the whole operation.

[RubberSideDown]

^

I also haven't heard from them in a while re: the HP4 I have a deposit on- as I'm hoping to delay taking delivery until March I'm OK with it, but they said they would be contacting me the beginning of February and no word yet- it's a bit of a concern, and with bike prices dropping steadily, I'm looking around a bit.

[Nickymaster]

I still rather have a GS1200 than a Yamaha 1200 Tenere.

But it all depends what kind of problems you have. A blown gasket is worse then a side stand sensor.

I have had 5 "problems" with my Multi 1200 since I bought it 8 months ago but they all could be fixed within a day. Just small things and the bike could still drive. And I don't care to visit Ducati now and then to have a good coffee and have a look at the bikes and accessories.

[mania]

^

I also haven't heard from them in a while re: the HP4 I have a deposit on- as I'm hoping to delay taking delivery until March I'm OK with it, but they said they would be contacting me the beginning of February and no word yet- it's a bit of a concern, and with bike prices dropping steadily, I'm looking around a bit.

Yeah when in doubt I think for that kind of scratch I would opt out.

Nice bike though for sure

[RubberSideDown]

^

Yeah- I had questions about enabling the DDC for the front fork (via a pricey sensor) and never got the promised info- they're going to have to work a bit to reassure me.

[ll2]

if i pay a premium price for a bmw bike and if i have problems, sure i complain more than usual.

wonder why italian bikes are off the chart!?

personally i think bmw hp4 is the best bike available in the market for what it is intented.

rubberside, just dont cancel it man!

[namdocmai]

So if they have the bike from another owner in service they would call new customers to have a look at it, sit on it and what about a testdrive? Imagine you come to pick up your bike and see another guy sitting on it.

If i have to buy a bike without seeing it at all i sure would bargain a good discount.

I wonder though why the bmw got so many complaints. It might be something very simple who knows. Bmw cars also lost their very good name from the past (Benz as well though) and that's a real shame. How could they let it come so far?

While i just had paid my new bike 2 weeks ago the dealer brought it outside and put a battery in it. Then another customer (some Somchai) jumped on it and i heard the salesgirl talk to him and she pointed at me. Then he tried to start it but he didn't know how. I was so perplexed and then realised what was going on so i walked to the bike and took the key out. Somchai didn't say anything but kept sitting on it and it seems he liked it, his scoopy was in repair so he had to wait.

[Richard-BKK]

The thing is that BMW worldwide sells more touring, dual-sport motorcycles than all manufacturers combined. So without a real breakdown of the numbers, its like I can say we have more people complaining about the Honda Wave 125 than the Keeway RKV200....

With that the Honda Wave 125 sells probably 1000 times, maybe even more than that, better than the Keeway RKV200... But without the breakdown of owners, buyers and who complains its is absolute useless information.

I can say I ride the best and most advanced bike in Thailand, and I can say with absolute honestly that all owners of the bike I ride will support me when I say that the MV Agusta F4RR is the best wonder on two wheels ( less than 20 sold in Thailand). Is that a statistical fact? Absolutely not... Its is just I love my bike and tell you shit, no the F4RR is really the best bike... but it cost the best price also...

I have two BMW bikes and I have nothing to complain about....for 6 years... fact

Edited February 18, 2014 by Richard-BKK

[denkiblue555]

The thing is that BMW worldwide sells more touring, dual-sport motorcycles than all manufacturers combined. So without a real breakdown of the numbers, its like I can say we have more people complaining about the Honda Wave 125 than the Keeway RKV200....

With that the Honda Wave 125 sells probably 1000 times, maybe even more than that, better than the Keeway RKV200... But without the breakdown of owners, buyers and who complains its is absolute useless information.

They are percentages Richard......

But I could listen to you talk about the MV Agusta F4 all day!

Any pics for us?

Edited February 18, 2014 by denkiblue555

[lachiplo]

i used to ride a f650gs and it developed cracks in the front fork axle area. i thought i was just me, till some of the advrider forum members pointed that it is a fairly common issue for f650gs.

i wasnt alone, and there are unfortunate riders when the fork just gave way. and it still happens on the new models. just type bmw fork failure in google and check out all the images. the freaky same spot

Edited February 18, 2014 by lachiplo

[ktm jeff]

Honda - behind both Yamaha and Kawasaki in terms of quality and complaints for percentage sold ! No surprise at all. Hondas quality has been falling for years (experts from within the engineering field have agreed Yamaha has had the best build quality/service for several years)and if Honda dont get their act together soon (they have very capable engineers - its the "bean counting" accountants that keep insisting on the cheapest parts quality possible )they may soon be overtaken by companies such as Keeway , and yes , im serious !.People prepared to look at other makes , other than Honda , are finding they can offer far better value , and in some cases , quality. People will soon question the value of Honda , and many will buy from the many other manufacturers , now offering similar products , but at a far lower price.

[thrilled]

I'm surprised that Harley Davidson is way up there.Years ago when A M F owned the company just about every one had problems.

In 2005 I bought A new softail.after 12000 miles not any problems at all.It's very dependable.I'm willing to bet there's people out there that say the same thing about B M W.They are great motorcycles.

[RubberSideDown]

The thing is that BMW worldwide sells more touring, dual-sport motorcycles than all manufacturers combined. So without a real breakdown of the numbers, its like I can say we have more people complaining about the Honda Wave 125 than the Keeway RKV200....

With that the Honda Wave 125 sells probably 1000 times, maybe even more than that, better than the Keeway RKV200... But without the breakdown of owners, buyers and who complains its is absolute useless information.

I can say I ride the best and most advanced bike in Thailand, and I can say with absolute honestly that all owners of the bike I ride will support me when I say that the MV Agusta F4RR is the best wonder on two wheels ( less than 20 sold in Thailand). Is that a statistical fact? Absolutely not... Its is just I love my bike and tell you shit, no the F4RR is really the best bike... but it cost the best price also...

I have two BMW bikes and I have nothing to complain about....for 6 years... fact

The numbers represent the percentage of bike owners who had to bring their motorcycles back to the dealer for some sort of problem- it's not simply about 'complaints', and it's hardly 'useless information'.

Your anecdotal experience means nothing in the face of these numbers- even with a BMW, there is still a 70% chance that you wouldn't experience an issue, but the reality is that a fairly high percentage of owners do- fact (and that fact is giving me second thoughts about buying a pricey BMW in Thailand). Your straw man fallacy regarding your MV is a silly addition to this thread.

Edited February 18, 2014 by RubberSideDown

[BBJ]

Plus the recent 50,000 BMW recalls!

I was considering the BMW GS1200 or the Multistrada in Aug-Sep, but the price, plus recalls gave me second thoughts. The price isn't the issue, but its worth, and I just don't think they are worth the price. I may consider the Tenere, but again is it worth it? I might just hold on for the V-Strom 1000, if it comes here..

Edited February 18, 2014 by BBJ

[JonnyF]

So if they have the bike from another owner in service they would call new customers to have a look at it, sit on it and what about a testdrive? Imagine you come to pick up your bike and see another guy sitting on it.

Yes, that did occur to me also. I'm sure they wouldn't let me test ride it, not sure if they'd let me sit on it but I'd guess they would if it meant getting a sale. It made me wonder how serious they are about the bike side of things when they don't even have a showroom model of their flagship bike, and also made me wonder if I'd want my bike being shown to prospective customers while it was in for a service.

[RubberSideDown]

^

To be fair re: the S1000RR, the 2014 (new colors- no word on options yet) is on the way (supposedly this month) and I'm not surprised the sold the floor model (they sold their entire allotment)- they had very little in the showroom (three bikes, I believe, and one was a scooter) when I was there last month.

They did have an HP4 on the floor in early December, but I still don't know if it was a customer's bike (I hadn't made my decision at that point and didn't ask- it looked brand-new, and they let me sit on it- no test-rides were discussed).

[jackcorbett]

I once owned a 650 c.c. BMW R-65 twin and it was a great bike. The only problems I had with it were I had to replace a headlight bulb while on a road trip and I was able to find one at a nearby store and a battery. Later I got a BMW K 100 RS, 4 cylinder. It vibrated enough that I wanted to get off the bike for five minutes about once an hour. Was stranded once of twice due to electrical problems associated with its fuel injection system. By the time I got rid of it, the transmission was going out, but the bike was still under warranty and BMW covered it.

My father and I had both had a number of German cars. I had two engines give out on the same trip in a VW beetle. Later I had a Volkswagen Dasher. It had numerous problems both electrical and with front wheel bearings. My Dad had an Audi 5000. He had to replace an engine gasket, a repair that cost him $2000 in the early 1980's.

I have a huge amount of respect for Germans and their engineering, and yes I do love BMW bikes which have a certain cachet about them. That being said, I completely fail to understand why their cars and bikes are so problem laden.

As I write this, I am currently in Japan. Last night I just got a repair estimate on a pair of Zeiss binoculars that had belonged to my father and I sent to Zeiss in Germany. Whoever sent me the estimate got completely confused thinking my German friend I'd have the binoculars sent to in Germany was me. The estimate was in German rather than in English so I have no idea what in fact is being repaired and it is for $900.00 U.S. I think the lens has a fungus on it due to the humid climate in Thailand. I had the same problem with a Japanese Nikon that is like the German pair just over 25 years old. As good as the Zeiss was, the Nikon pair was even better. Here in Japan that same model is still being made....it was that good and I can buy two 10 by 30 e series Nikon binoculars for the same amount of money as the Germans want to charge me to repair my Dad's old Zeiss binoculars.

As much as I respect German engineering and German attention to detail (BMW bikes are splendidly engineered bikes), sitting here in this Japanese hotel room in Kyoto, from what I can see, the Japanese are even more thorough, more particular, and more perfectionist orientated than the Germans. So as much as I once adored BMW motorcycles, I'd have to give them a pass. As a book I have on BMW motorcycles suggested, "When you buy a BMW motorcycle its high price is caused not just by the high cost of German labor. It's also caused by the high price of the German social welfare system that is built into the price of every BMW motorcycle one buys."

[namdocmai]

The german welfare system isn't that great. They even don't have minimum wages.

Their engineering skills are great but the computerpart is the problem. They are not reliable while the computers of the japanese are.

I know people with a new Benz that had to go 35 times back to the dealer, even refused to take the car back after 35 times but finally got a new one offered from Benz. BMW also had many problems like that, computerproblems.

For the rest they are still great cars but these days low-class people buy them, hi-so buys Audi or Volvo in Europe.

[jackcorbett]

The german welfare system isn't that great. They even don't have minimum wages.

Their engineering skills are great but the computerpart is the problem. They are not reliable while the computers of the japanese are.

I know people with a new Benz that had to go 35 times back to the dealer, even refused to take the car back after 35 times but finally got a new one offered from Benz. BMW also had many problems like that, computerproblems.

For the rest they are still great cars but these days low-class people buy them, hi-so buys Audi or Volvo in Europe.

I pretty much paraphrased from one of two books I recently bought about BMW motorcycles what I mentioned about the social welfare system in Germany. I do have many German friends in Pattaya, and one night I was discussing with two Germans the living conditions one of them would be facing if he had to go back to Germany to live. Both men paid very little, if any, into the social welfare system. My friend had been an architect working in France, Italy and Switzerland. He was able to avoid paying a lot of taxes by doing so. It seemed for awhile that his luck was running out in Thailand and he'd be forced to move back to Germany. If I got this right, he'd get an apartment free of charge from the government. I think around 50 square meters. He'd get all his utilities paid and his health care, and he'd receive something like $500 a month. That would about take care of his food and some beer money. Except for his savings, he'd have nothing left for luxuries or travel. Now I have no idea what his situation might have been had he been a practicing architect n Germany, but I"m sure his "social security" would have been much higher had he lived most of his working life there and had been paying his fair share of his taxes as a dutiful German citizen.

[AllanB]

The big problem with buying this make of bike has already been mentioned and that is the lack of expertise and perhaps even equipment, when it goes wrong.

Many years ago when the Japs were making in-roads into the German market, my German friend bought a big Kawasaki, he put all of his money into it and two weeks after he bought it he snapped the chain which broke his gearbox. That bike was off the road for 18 months and he could nothing except complain and wait..and wait.

In Thailand I fear it would have been worse, with their "yes crab, we can fix it" attitude, which would inevitably lead to even more problems and more aggravation than you can shake a stick at. If there is a reliability problem I would take my money and run, unless you can afford to take the hit.

Not everything that comes out of German is what you would expect, Mercedes Benz, hitherto a by word for reliability and build quality, well their cars just aren't that anymore. 30 years ago every second car you saw on an autobahn was a Merc, now they are all Beamers and in the UK they almost bottom the customer satisfaction charts every year. Toyota have fallen by the wayside too, although they still sell loads and it looks as though BMW bikes are following suit.

The way I see it you have two choices, run like hell, or keep your fingers crossed all the time you are riding it, that it doesn't go wrong in this technological vacuum.

[namdocmai]

The german welfare system isn't that great. They even don't have minimum wages.

Their engineering skills are great but the computerpart is the problem. They are not reliable while the computers of the japanese are.

I know people with a new Benz that had to go 35 times back to the dealer, even refused to take the car back after 35 times but finally got a new one offered from Benz. BMW also had many problems like that, computerproblems.

For the rest they are still great cars but these days low-class people buy them, hi-so buys Audi or Volvo in Europe.

I pretty much paraphrased from one of two books I recently bought about BMW motorcycles what I mentioned about the social welfare system in Germany. I do have many German friends in Pattaya, and one night I was discussing with two Germans the living conditions one of them would be facing if he had to go back to Germany to live. Both men paid very little, if any, into the social welfare system. My friend had been an architect working in France, Italy and Switzerland. He was able to avoid paying a lot of taxes by doing so. It seemed for awhile that his luck was running out in Thailand and he'd be forced to move back to Germany. If I got this right, he'd get an apartment free of charge from the government. I think around 50 square meters. He'd get all his utilities paid and his health care, and he'd receive something like $500 a month. That would about take care of his food and some beer money. Except for his savings, he'd have nothing left for luxuries or travel. Now I have no idea what his situation might have been had he been a practicing architect n Germany, but I"m sure his "social security" would have been much higher had he lived most of his working life there and had been paying his fair share of his taxes as a dutiful German citizen.

Well i don;t know the rules exactly for Germany but i believe your friends story pretty well. Europe is different then the USA in social systems but you pay much more tax for that. Compared to it's neighbouring country's Germany is pretty cheap to live in. Renting a house is pretty common in Germany. In the past (25 years ago) almost all cars in Germany were german made (Benz, VW, Bmw) but that's all changed now. Their motorbikes were also from a very high quality just like the old Japanese bikes. The old Benz cars could easy drive 1 million km if you maintained them well and sometimes changed some parts but the engines could do it.

In Germany there is no speedlimit on many highways so there it is great to have a big fast car. They drive it full speed all the time (on those highways without speedlimit) and will force you to the slower lane if you are not fast enough. Outside Germany those cars cost a lot more and then people switch to Toyota or other brands. Volvo also had computerproblems but i guess that's over now. Audi makes great cars but i don't see them in Thailand. The days of the big fat cars are ending in Europe, now they are small, efficient, clean and cheap.

Bmw still makes great bikes but for the price they cost they should never have any problems. The police in Europe drives them as well. In the past the highway-Police even drove Porsche but that is over. Actually i have never seen a topmodel Bmw bike in Thailand while there are plenty Thai that could afford them. They are to big to drive in the trafficjams and maybe also they don't look sportive enough for the Thai. Also i wonder if a Thai driver will even fit on one or can lift it when it accidentally falls from the standard.

[AllanB]

Like everywhere else things have changed a lot in Germany, at one time every taxi was a Merc W123, either 200D or 240D and as you said they did 1 million km...between oil changes. Now German taxi companies buy French cars, I met one on a flight, he said Mercs were now a nightmare to run, that would never happen in the old days.

We have all been merrily slagging off Chinese bikes on this forum, but with western expertise now over there in abundance, how long will it be before the tables are turned. The reason that Mercedes went down the reliability toilet is that the accountants took over, China doesn't have that problem. But maybe that is the case at BMW motorcycles.

By the way Germany only has a couple of roads that are unregulated and they don't necessarily buy fast cars, the just drive everything fast. Though that comment may be a bit out of date now.

Edited February 19, 2014 by AllanB

[ll2]

Like everywhere else things have changed a lot in Germany, at one time every taxi was a Merc W123, either 200D or 240D and as you said they did 1 million km...between oil changes. Now German taxi companies buy French cars, I met one on a flight, he said Mercs were now a nightmare to run, that would never happen in the old days.

We have all been merrily slagging off Chinese bikes on this forum, but with western expertise now over there in abundance, how long will it be before the tables are turned. The reason that Mercedes went down the reliability toilet is that the accountants took over, China doesn't have that problem. But maybe that is the case at BMW motorcycles.

By the way Germany only has a couple of roads that are unregulated and they don't necessarily buy fast cars, the just drive everything fast. Though that comment may be a bit out of date now.

china doesnt have that problem?

they are the masters of cutting the corners in this world!

[AllanB]

Like everywhere else things have changed a lot in Germany, at one time every taxi was a Merc W123, either 200D or 240D and as you said they did 1 million km...between oil changes. Now German taxi companies buy French cars, I met one on a flight, he said Mercs were now a nightmare to run, that would never happen in the old days.

We have all been merrily slagging off Chinese bikes on this forum, but with western expertise now over there in abundance, how long will it be before the tables are turned. The reason that Mercedes went down the reliability toilet is that the accountants took over, China doesn't have that problem. But maybe that is the case at BMW motorcycles.

By the way Germany only has a couple of roads that are unregulated and they don't necessarily buy fast cars, the just drive everything fast. Though that comment may be a bit out of date now.

china doesnt have that problem?

they are the masters of cutting the corners in this world!

It's not quite the same thing, when they knocking out cheap junk, that is the case, but now they are entering the serious market their cost are so low they have a long way to go before they arrive at western prices. Most of the big manufactures now use Chinese companies anyway and product quality is assured by their own inspection and production people.

They are not there yet, but things change. Some going down, some coming up.

[ll2]

Like everywhere else things have changed a lot in Germany, at one time every taxi was a Merc W123, either 200D or 240D and as you said they did 1 million km...between oil changes. Now German taxi companies buy French cars, I met one on a flight, he said Mercs were now a nightmare to run, that would never happen in the old days.

We have all been merrily slagging off Chinese bikes on this forum, but with western expertise now over there in abundance, how long will it be before the tables are turned. The reason that Mercedes went down the reliability toilet is that the accountants took over, China doesn't have that problem. But maybe that is the case at BMW motorcycles.

By the way Germany only has a couple of roads that are unregulated and they don't necessarily buy fast cars, the just drive everything fast. Though that comment may be a bit out of date now.

china doesnt have that problem?

they are the masters of cutting the corners in this world!

It's not quite the same thing, when they knocking out cheap junk, that is the case, but now they are entering the serious market their cost are so low they have a long way to go before they arrive at western prices. Most of the big manufactures now use Chinese companies anyway and product quality is assured by their own inspection and production people.

They are not there yet, but things change. Some going down, some coming up.

why is a bike made in china by yamaha costs more and a lifan costs less Allan?

[H1w4yR1da]

The reason that Mercedes went down the reliability toilet is that the accountants took over, China doesn't have that problem.

No, their problems are more entrenched and cultural.

The Chinese would rather cheat someone out of 100$ than make 200$ legally and fairly. It's in their blood. Remember the Baby Milk Formula poisonings?

Honesty, fairplay and giving someone a decent shake are considered weaknesses to be exploited.

Add in wanting vengence for historical wrongdongs against them and cultural xenophobia and you have some idea of their business outlook.

They haven't had an original idea since footbinding and female infanticide. They are world leaders in industrial espionage and steal all the innovation from the west and Japan. They don't even try to hide it.

They can assemble products (iPhone etc.) to an acceptable standard as long as they're closely supervised by outsiders.

Invention and innovation are as alien to them as apple pie and ice cream. You see those brilliant Chinese classical musicians. Can play the pieces perfectly.

Ask them to write an original piece and they wouldn't know where to begin.

Just my 2 cents.