Redshirt threats get political tension boiling

[Gweiloman]

It is naive to think that there weren't any behind the scenes negotiations between the Dems and PT regarding the amnesty bill. I believe that there was a handshake agreement to go ahead with it. It was only when there war much more than the expected opposition to the bill that the Dems felt they could take advantage of the situation and they reneg on supporting the bill.

I for one feel that the amnesty bill would have been a good thing to wipe the slate clean and start afresh - RESTART THAILAND - to borrow from the protestors. Thailand COULD have been at peace today if the bill got passed. Instead, can anyone who loves Thailand honestly say that they like what's happening here today? No matter how disgusting the bill might have been, sometimes the means justify the ends.

If things really do get out of hand and Bangkok (and the rest of Thailand) falls into the abyss, the amnesty bill would have been a much smaller price to pay for peace and unity.

I think it is stupid to think that the Democrats "secretly supported" the amnesty bill, but started the protest movement and resigned from parliament because of it. I actually thought you were smarter than that.

Wiping the slate clean so that everyone can go back to 2005 and restart the protests against Thaksin doesn't seem like a smart idea either.

How do you get peace and unity when so many people, from BOTH sides, are against the amnesty bill?

You are entitled to your opinion of course, as I am to mine. I would like to post an extract from what I consider a very well written letter by an obviously well educated Thai citizen, Chan Nilgianskul:

"There is more to the Amnesty Bill than meets the eye. For you to say that it is obvious that “this law was passed solely to pave way for Thaksin’s return as a free man with all his wealth restored” shows nothing but shallowness. You have allowed your deeply enshrined political partisanship to blur your analysis. You claim to speak as a “US-trained lawyer,” while it is your prejudice that is doing the actual talking. Mr. Obama deserves better.

For all his weaknesses, Thaksin is not so strategically inept as to think that he could unilaterally push through the Amnesty Bill. Make no mistake; there was undoubtedly some sort of “deal” or at least an understanding in place between the Thaksin camp and key establishment figures before the bill was passed by the Lower House.

“To state the obvious”:

1) There were many enemies of Thaksin who would have benefited from and may have quietly welcomed the Amnesty Bill, but also wanted to appear to the public that they were ready to accept responsibility for their crimes. For example, the 2006 coup leaders (who under the annulled 1997 Constitution in force at the time would have been tried for treason) and several members of the Abhisit administration (who were facing murder charges for the excessively violent 2010 protest crackdowns), to name but a few.

2) Since the bill would still have to pass through the half-appointed and predominantly “anti-Thaksin” Senate before being presented for Royal Assent, it is unlikely that there had been no acknowledgement behind the scenes from those outside the Thaksin camp.

It is also interesting, although not necessarily relevant, to note that prisoners of conscience serving sentences for lese-majeste were for some unknown reasons not included in the amnesty plans, despite many of them being die-hard supporters of Thaksin Shinawatra.

The more logical explanation is that the conservatives, seeing massive popular reaction against the Amnesty Bill, saw the situation as an opportunity to abandon the reconciliation efforts and instead attempt to bring down Thaksin yet again by employing street politics.

"

Nevertheless, we can agree to disagree. But do you not agree that Thailand is standing very precariously on the edge of a very deep abyss? And all it takes a just one more little shove to reach the point of no return. If that were to happen, wouldn't you think that maybe, just maybe, the price for the amnesty bill would have been or might have been a price worth paying?

[dude123]

I was thinking of coming to Thailaned in June. Anyone think this is a bad idea now? I've read this forum for months

and it always seems like Thailand is on the brink of civil war if you read some of the posts, but my Wife says it will

never happen. Any thoughts?

[phutoie2]

Posts number 87 -88, please learn to use the quotes function correctly. Your garbled nonsense might just make some sense.

[Butcherbird]

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You have just written out the exact reason why the elections must be postponed and held at a later date when the rules for running this country have been re-written. Everything you have just stated justifies why so many people now recognise that reforms are urgently needed here. This country will not move forward until there are rules and mechanisms in place that allow transparency, equality and the rule of law to function. There is no point in having yet another election that delivers up another political party that simply does what it pleases. It does not matter which party gets back into power, the mechanisms here in Thailand are too weak and ill-defined to be effective. Reforms must come first.

I find it surprising the number of people on this forum who give the impression that they originate from western countries where this sort of breakdown in political and social life in their own country would not be tolerated and yet they will support a continuation of a broken system here. It is irrelevent who claims to have won the last election and the one before that, etc, etc, when you are presiding over such an appallingly embarrassing mess. Those that want this country to move forward should know better than to defend in any shape or form the present debacle.

I'm sure I'm not the only one with no faith whatsoever in The Dems and their cronies reforming the 2007 Constitution they drafted in the first place? Please note that I'm not in anyway criticizing it, as that's actually illegal.

I'm sure most people agree that a reform is needed. A reform by Suthep, the Dems and their cronies sounds an awful lot like anything but democracy to me, though.

I think you misunderstand me. I didn't say a reform proposed by the Democrats......I mean reforms proposed by a group of people who are not politicians and not controlled by vested interests. If other countries can do this then so can Thailand.....but there needs to be a will to do it because the present system is broken and there is no point in continuing it. The requirement for reforms is being asked for by a much broader spectrum of the community than just the Dems.

[antimedia]

"The red shirts' hard core is Thaksin's last resort..."

This quote another attempt to denigrate Electoral Democracy forces by suggesting they are devoid of political intent and are uni-dimensional... It is a form of Elitist arrogance implying they have the market cornered on Political awareness. Their coup-mongering friends with their shadowy supporters are self-servingly doing everything in their power to prevent majority-based governance in an Electoral Democracy, and has nothing to do with Thaksin or the performance of this Govt.

If there was a reference to Thaksin at this gathering in Korat yesterday, I missed it..I'm sure there was, but it was merely in passing....All I saw was a format whereby many regionally-based groups of the UDD/RS's, spoke in order throughout the day, exclaiming vociforously their refusal to buckle-under again, to anti-Democtats seeking to steal their voting selections.

This was not a case of UDD incitement...These were grass-roots voters demanding their votes be respected...It didn't take incitement by the UDD or PTP... These people spoke from the heart, many with fire in their eyes..It didn't take the UDD, or PTP to fire these people up....Suthep and his shadowy supporters with their street antics in BKK, plus their user-friendly courts and Independent agencies have done a very good job of that, all by themselves....In fact by the time Jatuporn and Nathawut spoke, it was later in the day, when many participants had already left.

It was noteworthy that unlike many of these gatherings when participants begin to drift home after Lunch. Yesterday the double-tiered levels of this Gymnasium remained packed throughout the day, listening to regional-based leaders of their own kind...No Centralized leadership needed. The PTP/UDD/RS resistance to Elitist anti-democrats is bottom-up, let no-one be confused about that.

The suggestion that the " PDRC co-leaders declared to end the game by launching an "onslaught" against the caretaker government and Shinawatra business empire" is folderol. Their onslaught is a crass challenge by an unelectable political minority against the majority in an Electoral Democracy. They are self-servingly challenging voter-majority selections, pretending it is against a caretaker Govt. A Govt. they are trying to characterize as having no electoral roots...It is those millions of roots they are up against, and those "majority" roots don't appreciate it, nor will accept it.

That was on prominent display in Korat yesterday.

Hate to burst your bubble sunshine, but the vote is worth jack, time for some real time realisation don't you think.

[webfact]

UPDATE:

Red shirts call for civil disobedience against independent organizations



BANGKOK: -- Red-shirt leaders yesterday issued an 11-point demand to the caretaker Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra, one of which is the call for her government to adopt civil disobedience against all independent organization which they said were treating her unfairly.

At the rally stage of the red-shirt rally in Nakhon Rathasima under the theme “Beating the War Drum”, the ruling Pheu Thai party leader Charupong Ruangsuwan , the caretaker interior minister, and Nattawut Saikua, the caretaker deputy commerce minister, were seen addressing a few thousand of supporters, and announcing a 11-point demand for the caretaker government to implement.

They included no resignation in any case of caretaker prime minister, speedy payment to rice farmers, refusal to acknowledge the corruption charges to be brought against the caretaker prime minister by the National Anti Corruption Commission on the rice deal, civil disobedience of the caretaker government against all unfair independent organization, and permission for the police to arm and suppress armed fighters who are among anti-government protesters.

Pheu Thai party leader Charupong also declared before the crowds that the party and the caretaker government would never step back as long as the people still give them support.

He also insisted that if the situation develops to critical level, all supporters should be ready for protest movement.

Source: http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/red-shirts-call-civil-disobedience-independent-organizations/


-- Thai PBS 2014-02-24

[icommunity]

A violence confrontation seem to be a high possibility. With the number of the dem's pdrc/pcad dwindling and the number of RS/UDD people increasing and their feelings of bitterness and haplessness mutiplied, the only means the dem's pdrc/pcad has is the deployment of its rapid response popcorn spraying brigade.

The violence incident yesterday at Raj'prason was a warning to RS/UDD - don't come, or it is what you will get. However, the RS/UDD responded - we will sure come.

Will the courts allowed the caretaker government to crack down protests that had turned violence?

Are you saying the attack was AGAINST the Red Shirts?

That is the most disgusting spin I've seen in a long while.

Yes, unless proved otherwise. IMO, I still believe that "The violence incident yesterday at Raj'prason was a warning to RS/UDD - don't come, or it is what you will get. However, the RS/UDD responded - we will sure come. Suthep had challenged the RS/UDD with violence - popcorn vendors.

SOE should be updated to deal with the escalating violence. However, the military should completely be out of the loop and remain in their barracks. It is imperative that they prove that they are not a party to the violence.

[Fryslan boppe]

"The red shirts' hard core is Thaksin's last resort..."

This quote another attempt to denigrate Electoral Democracy forces by suggesting they are devoid of political intent and are uni-dimensional... It is a form of Elitist arrogance implying they have the market cornered on Political awareness. Their coup-mongering friends with their shadowy supporters are self-servingly doing everything in their power to prevent majority-based governance in an Electoral Democracy, and has nothing to do with Thaksin or the performance of this Govt.

If there was a reference to Thaksin at this gathering in Korat yesterday, I missed it..I'm sure there was, but it was merely in passing....All I saw was a format whereby many regionally-based groups of the UDD/RS's, spoke in order throughout the day, exclaiming vociforously their refusal to buckle-under again, to anti-Democtats seeking to steal their voting selections.

This was not a case of UDD incitement...These were grass-roots voters demanding their votes be respected...It didn't take incitement by the UDD or PTP... These people spoke from the heart, many with fire in their eyes..It didn't take the UDD, or PTP to fire these people up....Suthep and his shadowy supporters with their street antics in BKK, plus their user-friendly courts and Independent agencies have done a very good job of that, all by themselves....In fact by the time Jatuporn and Nathawut spoke, it was later in the day, when many participants had already left.

It was noteworthy that unlike many of these gatherings when participants begin to drift home after Lunch. Yesterday the double-tiered levels of this Gymnasium remained packed throughout the day, listening to regional-based leaders of their own kind...No Centralized leadership needed. The PTP/UDD/RS resistance to Elitist anti-democrats is bottom-up, let no-one be confused about that.

The suggestion that the " PDRC co-leaders declared to end the game by launching an "onslaught" against the caretaker government and Shinawatra business empire" is folderol. Their onslaught is a crass challenge by an unelectable political minority against the majority in an Electoral Democracy. They are self-servingly challenging voter-majority selections, pretending it is against a caretaker Govt. A Govt. they are trying to characterize as having no electoral roots...It is those millions of roots they are up against, and those "majority" roots don't appreciate it, nor will accept it.

That was on prominent display in Korat yesterday.

The amnesty bill that really got this latest conflict started

Did this meeting consider what kind of reforms would be beneficial to Thai society?

Surely all these grass-roots representatives are well aware that the actual participation in this incomplete election was woefully low. Was this discussed and seen as a problem?

Did they find it relevant to discuss that or how to possibly improve it in the future?

These aren't just trick questions. I am genuinely curious to learn that the UDD truly is a democratic organisation that defines it's policies based on the wishes and concerns of it's grass-roots members.

>"The amnesty bill that really got this latest conflict started"

This position is erroneous from the get-go.....This amnesty thing was merely a fabricated issue which could easily have been 'Parliamentarized". What started this latest attempt to overthrow an elected government by unelectables - not conforntation as is suggested - is merely a reprise of 2006, by many of the same players....When the amnesty thing didn't work, they went to anti-Thaksinism, then to preventing an election, and so on...With the common denominator being Coup-intentionism by an electoral minority.

>"Did this meeting consider what kind of reforms would be beneficial to Thai society?"

Not the intent of the meeting. Such a question can be "Parliamentarized". The intent of this meeting was not to engage in Parliamentary debate, but provide another shot-across-the-bow to the Elites and their coup intentions, that there will be "hell to pay" if they seek to achieve their objectives on the street, in user-friendly Judicial chambers or their so-called Independent Agencies....... Self-described independence which doesn't fool anyone.

>"Surely all these grass-roots representatives are well aware that the actual participation in this incomplete election was woefully low. Was this discussed and seen as a problem?

Coup-intentioned people maligning an incomplete election as if 'failure' is a fact, sure are afraid to finish it and tabulate it. Explaining that fact explains a lot.

>"These aren't just trick questions. I am genuinely curious to learn that the UDD truly is a democratic organisation that defines it's policies based on the wishes and concerns of it's grass-roots members"

I accept them as such, and responded accordingly. Yesterday was definitely an assurance, not that one was needed, that "...the UDD truly is a democratic organisation that defines it's policies based on the wishes and concerns of it's grass-roots members" "....At this point that is not an issue. Defending Electoral Democracy and respecting the votes of the electoral majority is the issue and the UDD/RS are in the forefront of that debate.

Why don't the UDD step away from Thaksin and his wrongs (alleged or otherwise) and form a proper political party and engage in this Democracy on their own without the Shinawatra bias?

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

>"Why don't the UDD step away from Thaksin and his wrongs..."

Coup-maker alleged wrongs supported by their user-friendly courts, need to be considered for what they are...demonizing those they coup'ed in order to try and justify themselves.

>"If the UDD/ RS are Democratic and for the people IS that ALL the people. Including Southerners?"

Yup...The beauty of national elections.

If the Opposition doesn't like being a minority in Parliament and not being able to call the shots for their constituencies, they can remedy this by conforming to the needs of a diverse, nation-wide electorate, and develop policies reflective of it. That will give them an opportunity to be elected...Trying to dictate and impose their view on the electorate is bass-ackwards.

I am sure the brain trust of the UDD/RS's have considered creating their won political party, but so far feel they can still work through the PTP.

Again to tie them to what you call "Shinawatra bias?" is denigrating them by implying they are politically naive and uni-dimensional...All of it arrogant Opposition mantra without substance. That is not to say they are not influenced by policies originally introduced by Mr. Thaksin. It is up to the PAD-Dem's to offer alternatives that will in turn win them elections, regardless of what historically is motivating them.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Fryslan boppe

[Alwyn]

people whop like running are runners, swimming - swimmers. Just wondering if this lot of Udders are going to cause more mayhem?

[Suradit69]

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I thought a coup would not happen this time but if there are more terrorist attacks I think there will be no other solution to the ongoing problems to protect the lives of all the people.

CIC Gen Prayuth is monitoring the situation, you are probably right in your estimation , if the violence escalates, options are limited, others that show interest will issue the go orders, long time Thai expats know what I mean.

"long time Thai expats know what I mean."

Most Thai expats are no more well informed than the guys seated on the bar stools on either side of them.

As far as your "subtle" message to the supposed cognoscenti is concerned, history seldom repeats itself exactly as we might wish it would.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Suradit69

[Local Drunk]

UPDATE:

Red shirts call for civil disobedience against independent organizations

BANGKOK: -- Red-shirt leaders yesterday issued an 11-point demand to the caretaker Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra, one of which is the call for her government to adopt civil disobedience against all independent organization which they said were treating her unfairly.

At the rally stage of the red-shirt rally in Nakhon Rathasima under the theme “Beating the War Drum”, the ruling Pheu Thai party leader Charupong Ruangsuwan , the caretaker interior minister, and Nattawut Saikua, the caretaker deputy commerce minister, were seen addressing a few thousand of supporters, and announcing a 11-point demand for the caretaker government to implement.

They included no resignation in any case of caretaker prime minister, speedy payment to rice farmers, refusal to acknowledge the corruption charges to be brought against the caretaker prime minister by the National Anti Corruption Commission on the rice deal, civil disobedience of the caretaker government against all unfair independent organization, and permission for the police to arm and suppress armed fighters who are among anti-government protesters.

Pheu Thai party leader Charupong also declared before the crowds that the party and the caretaker government would never step back as long as the people still give them support.

He also insisted that if the situation develops to critical level, all supporters should be ready for protest movement.

Source: http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/red-shirts-call-civil-disobedience-independent-organizations/

-- Thai PBS 2014-02-24

How has she treated Thailand? Her brother made Aristman and Jutaporn rich... and the dank stench of earth is all the farmers have.

[KimoMax]

I was thinking of coming to Thailaned in June. Anyone think this is a bad idea now? I've read this forum for months

and it always seems like Thailand is on the brink of civil war if you read some of the posts, but my Wife says it will

never happen. Any thoughts?

Many expats, tourists, and business people are still here.

No one has a Crystal Ball to forsee the Future, and June is still a long way off and things could change either way in an instant.

It is unwise to think things can not get bad, but have eyes and ears open just in case.

For the most part, people are not currently fleeing the Country.

At the moment, most of us avoid protest sites and unfortunately Bangkok where daily disruptions to normal life and traffic flow is a ongoing problem.

Most of the rest of Thailand is basicaly uneffected other than previous blockages of major Highway traffic in some areas by protesting farmers.

You should not put off plans, but have a back out plan if needed.

[TVGerry]

A violence confrontation seem to be a high possibility. With the number of the dem's pdrc/pcad dwindling and the number of RS/UDD people increasing and their feelings of bitterness and haplessness mutiplied, the only means the dem's pdrc/pcad has is the deployment of its rapid response popcorn spraying brigade.

The violence incident yesterday at Raj'prason was a warning to RS/UDD - don't come, or it is what you will get. However, the RS/UDD responded - we will sure come.

Will the courts allowed the caretaker government to crack down protests that had turned violence?

Are you saying the attack was AGAINST the Red Shirts?

That is the most disgusting spin I've seen in a long while.

Yes, unless proved otherwise. IMO, I still believe that "The violence incident yesterday at Raj'prason was a warning to RS/UDD - don't come, or it is what you will get. However, the RS/UDD responded - we will sure come. Suthep had challenged the RS/UDD with violence - popcorn vendors.

SOE should be updated to deal with the escalating violence. However, the military should completely be out of the loop and remain in their barracks. It is imperative that they prove that they are not a party to the violence.

Shooter.jpg GreenBeret.jpg

Riiiiiight. And if they do come, they're not going to get bombed at on the daily basis. It's amusing that it's the PRDC who are victims of these cowardly attacks but someone actually can spin it in such a way that it becomes a 'warning' for the political enemies of the PRDC.

[hellodolly]

Threats my ass.

They are already being violent. It is in their nature.

Now I will go read the article.

[casualbiker]

A violence confrontation seem to be a high possibility. With the number of the dem's pdrc/pcad dwindling and the number of RS/UDD people increasing and their feelings of bitterness and haplessness mutiplied, the only means the dem's pdrc/pcad has is the deployment of its rapid response popcorn spraying brigade.

The violence incident yesterday at Raj'prason was a warning to RS/UDD - don't come, or it is what you will get. However, the RS/UDD responded - we will sure come.

Will the courts allowed the caretaker government to crack down protests that had turned violence?

Are you saying the attack was AGAINST the Red Shirts?

That is the most disgusting spin I've seen in a long while.

Yes, unless proved otherwise. IMO, I still believe that "The violence incident yesterday at Raj'prason was a warning to RS/UDD - don't come, or it is what you will get. However, the RS/UDD responded - we will sure come. Suthep had challenged the RS/UDD with violence - popcorn vendors.

SOE should be updated to deal with the escalating violence. However, the military should completely be out of the loop and remain in their barracks. It is imperative that they prove that they are not a party to the violence.

Shooter.jpg GreenBeret.jpg

Icommunity. Thanks for showing the Police men in black in your 2nd picture. Well done for showing both sides are stupid.

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[fab4]

Where have you been for the last 6 months? It is because of the amnesty bill that Thailand is being pushed toward a civil war.

No, that might have been the "cause" at the beginning but it has been hijacked since then and that is the reason that Thailand finds itself in this situation.

Yes, it was the cause in the beginning. The amnesty bill is what started this. And the way that Thaksin was inserted into the bill and the way it was pushed through parliament is what gave the protesters reasons to extend the protests beyond the amnesty bill.

What reasons? The checks and balances worked, the Senate rejected the bill. End of.

Or it would have been if that fat jerk and his backers hadn't hijacked the whole thing in order to protect the status quo and make sure that the "right" people are in charge for certain future events.

Stuff all to do with corruption or reform.

Edited February 24, 2014 by fab4

[Sirbergan]

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You have just written out the exact reason why the elections must be postponed and held at a later date when the rules for running this country have been re-written. Everything you have just stated justifies why so many people now recognise that reforms are urgently needed here. This country will not move forward until there are rules and mechanisms in place that allow transparency, equality and the rule of law to function. There is no point in having yet another election that delivers up another political party that simply does what it pleases. It does not matter which party gets back into power, the mechanisms here in Thailand are too weak and ill-defined to be effective. Reforms must come first.

I find it surprising the number of people on this forum who give the impression that they originate from western countries where this sort of breakdown in political and social life in their own country would not be tolerated and yet they will support a continuation of a broken system here. It is irrelevent who claims to have won the last election and the one before that, etc, etc, when you are presiding over such an appallingly embarrassing mess. Those that want this country to move forward should know better than to defend in any shape or form the present debacle.

I'm sure I'm not the only one with no faith whatsoever in The Dems and their cronies reforming the 2007 Constitution they drafted in the first place? Please note that I'm not in anyway criticizing it, as that's actually illegal.

I'm sure most people agree that a reform is needed. A reform by Suthep, the Dems and their cronies sounds an awful lot like anything but democracy to me, though.

I think you misunderstand me. I didn't say a reform proposed by the Democrats......I mean reforms proposed by a group of people who are not politicians and not controlled by vested interests. If other countries can do this then so can Thailand.....but there needs to be a will to do it because the present system is broken and there is no point in continuing it. The requirement for reforms is being asked for by a much broader spectrum of the community than just the Dems.

I agree, but the current situation won't allow that to happen. It's clear that all Suthep and his street mob wants is to topple the government so they, amongst other things, can be in charge of such "reforms". They refuse any negotiations.

It seems pretty clear that the real agenda of the PDRC has nothing to do with reforms.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Sirbergan

[Fryslan boppe]

"Red shirts call for civil disobedience against independent organizations..."

The days of surreptitiously working through their user-friendly creations by the Elites are over......Trying to find cover for coup-intentionism beneath these user-friendly entities pretending not to be political is well known. Pretending to be lofty law and order bodies only fools the International community.

Internally, their true intentions are well known.

Basically, if the unelectable Elites think they can dispose of an elected Govt. unelectorally, that is not gonna happen. The electorate has been far too politicized for that to happen without huge national reactions.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Fryslan boppe

[whybother]

You are entitled to your opinion of course, as I am to mine. I would like to post an extract from what I consider a very well written letter by an obviously well educated Thai citizen, Chan Nilgianskul:

"There is more to the Amnesty Bill than meets the eye. For you to say that it is obvious that “this law was passed solely to pave way for Thaksin’s return as a free man with all his wealth restored” shows nothing but shallowness. You have allowed your deeply enshrined political partisanship to blur your analysis. You claim to speak as a “US-trained lawyer,” while it is your prejudice that is doing the actual talking. Mr. Obama deserves better.

For all his weaknesses, Thaksin is not so strategically inept as to think that he could unilaterally push through the Amnesty Bill. Make no mistake; there was undoubtedly some sort of “deal” or at least an understanding in place between the Thaksin camp and key establishment figures before the bill was passed by the Lower House.

“To state the obvious”:

1) There were many enemies of Thaksin who would have benefited from and may have quietly welcomed the Amnesty Bill, but also wanted to appear to the public that they were ready to accept responsibility for their crimes. For example, the 2006 coup leaders (who under the annulled 1997 Constitution in force at the time would have been tried for treason) and several members of the Abhisit administration (who were facing murder charges for the excessively violent 2010 protest crackdowns), to name but a few.

2) Since the bill would still have to pass through the half-appointed and predominantly “anti-Thaksin” Senate before being presented for Royal Assent, it is unlikely that there had been no acknowledgement behind the scenes from those outside the Thaksin camp.

It is also interesting, although not necessarily relevant, to note that prisoners of conscience serving sentences for lese-majeste were for some unknown reasons not included in the amnesty plans, despite many of them being die-hard supporters of Thaksin Shinawatra.

The more logical explanation is that the conservatives, seeing massive popular reaction against the Amnesty Bill, saw the situation as an opportunity to abandon the reconciliation efforts and instead attempt to bring down Thaksin yet again by employing street politics.

"

Nevertheless, we can agree to disagree. But do you not agree that Thailand is standing very precariously on the edge of a very deep abyss? And all it takes a just one more little shove to reach the point of no return. If that were to happen, wouldn't you think that maybe, just maybe, the price for the amnesty bill would have been or might have been a price worth paying?

"Very well written" maybe. But I don't agree with it. On the anti-Thaksin side, the amnesty would have benefited Abhisit and Suthep, but they've been adamant that they wouldn't accept amnesty under any conditions. I suppose that there may have been a push from the hard core yellow shirts behind the scenes to accept amnesty, but that would indicate that Abhisit and Suthep aren't controlled by the "Amaat" as everyone suggests.

I don't see how giving everyone amnesty can just make everything go away. The issues are still there. Nothing will really change, especially if amnesty means that Thaksin can just go back and continue what he was doing before. Protests will continue against Thaksin. The red shirts will still want to go after Abhisit. Welcome to Groundhog Day.

The only way I can see things moving forward is if Yingluck and Thaksin (and the rest of the family) get out of politics.

That does NOT mean that Suthep or his peoples council should take over. That would be worse than now, and worse than 2010.

But while Thaksin continues to be involved, there will continue to be protests. Amnesty won't stop that.

[whybother]

I agree, but the current situation won't allow that to happen. It's clear that all Suthep and his street mob wants is to topple the government so they, amongst other things, can be in charge of such "reforms". They refuse any negotiations.

It seems pretty clear that the real agenda of the PDRC has nothing to do with reforms.

How do you know what the real agenda of the PDRC is? Has it been published somewhere or you part of their secret agenda meetings?

[hellodolly]

A violence confrontation seem to be a high possibility. W,ith the number of the dem's pdrc/pcad dwindling and the number of RS/UDD people increasing and their feelings of bitterness and haplessness mutiplied the only means the dem's pdrc/pcad has is the deployment of its rapid response popcorn spraying brigade.

The violence incident yesterday at Raj'prason was a warning to RS/UDD - don't come, or it is what you will get. However, the RS/UDD responded - we will sure come.

Will the courts allowed the caretaker government to crack down protests that had turned violence?

Are you saying the attack was AGAINST the Red Shirts?

That is the most disgusting spin I've seen in a long while.

Yes, unless proved otherwise. IMO, I still believe that "The violence incident yesterday at Raj'prason was a warning to RS/UDD - don't come, or it is what you will get. However, the RS/UDD responded - we will sure come. Suthep had challenged the RS/UDD with violence - popcorn vendors.

SOE should be updated to deal with the escalating violence. However, the military should completely be out of the loop and remain in their barracks. It is imperative that they prove that they are not a party to the violence.

Shooter.jpg GreenBeret.jpg

Riiiiiight. And if they do come, they're not going to get bombed at on the daily basis. It's amusing that it's the PRDC who are victims of these cowardly attacks but someone actually can spin it in such a way that it becomes a 'warning' for the political enemies of the PRDC.

I think what is being over looked here is as icommunity said..

"W,ith the number of the dem's pdrc/pcad dwindling and the number of RS/UDD people increasing and their feelings of bitterness and haplessness mutiplied.

The key to what he is saying is

"number of the dem's pdrc/pcad dwindling"

Yes as the number dwindle the red shirts grow in courage. Good thing for the red shirts the Anti Government have to go to work for a living. They do not get paid for standing up for an honest government unlike some who receive money to oppose them in a violent way because that is what they do for a living."

They are cowards and had to wait for the anti government to get down to a size where they with the tacit blessing of BIB under direct command of the government approve of it.

I think only an intellectual giant like icommunity would have spotted that cowardice in them.

Edited February 24, 2014 by hellodolly

[Sirbergan]

I agree, but the current situation won't allow that to happen. It's clear that all Suthep and his street mob wants is to topple the government so they, amongst other things, can be in charge of such "reforms". They refuse any negotiations.

It seems pretty clear that the real agenda of the PDRC has nothing to do with reforms.

How do you know what the real agenda of the PDRC is? Has it been published somewhere or you part of their secret agenda meetings?

Actions speaks louder than secret agenda meetings.

[fab4]

What reasons? The checks and balances worked, the Senate rejected the bill. End of.

Or it would have been if that fat jerk and his backers hadn't hijacked the whole thing in order to protect the status quo and make sure that the "right" people are in charge for certain future events.

Stuff all to do with corruption or reform.

They worked ONLY because the protestors were out condemning the bill.. if they hadn't been would the "checks and balances " have worked? Considering the Phua Thai government and its lackeys (house speaker etc) slammed it through.

Do you honestly think that Thailand DOESN'T need political reform?

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

l didn't say I was against reform did I? I would welcome it, especially judicial reform, but after elections.

My point was that reform or corruption are the last things on the minds of the people using suthep.

Edited February 24, 2014 by fab4

[AleG]

And now a word from the rest of the Thai People, aka the MAJORITY. They have as much right to Occupy Bangkok for the Government they support and the right to resist any police force for they only want to exercise their right to peaceful protests. They have as much right as Suthep to shut down opposition businesses, block public wayfares, and threaten opposition leaders with physical means. They have to same right to protect their own protest leaders with armed security guards and collect contributions from the public in the street. When Yin meets Yang, the circle will be complete and then maybe more rationale and reasonable leadership will find common solutions.

Can you provide any cite showing Red Shirts represent more than 50% of the population?

Hint: having voted for PTP does not make a person a Red Shirt.

The only time I've seen a survey over shirt affiliation, 7% identified as Red Shirts and another 7% were sympathetic with them. That was a couple years ago I think and I don't believe numbers must have increased since then.

[marcusd]

Very Democratic. Fight the courts. Another whacko statement from some dumb ass fool

Marcusd. Via tapatalk

[Scamper]

It is really impossible at this point to avoid the acknowledgment that these are the elements of a civil war. There are a number of things that are profoundly alarming about what Nuttawut, Jataporn, and Thida said, notwithstanding the fact that not one word was devoted to Trat. The refrain against the PDRC is of course to be expected. But the refrain includes repeated calls against the independent agencies and the courts. In other words - the rule of law itself. That is the threat of Thaksin and his UDD - it is a threat to the rule of law. Thaksin has long wanted the independent agencies to be disbanded, and he wants control over the courts. Such authoritarian impulses are a danger to the country in both the short and long-term. The UDD is therefore every bit as a dangerous to society as they claim the PDRC to be. But here's the difference - the PDRC has never, ever called for the dismantling of independent agencies or the neutering of the courts. Not once. Those are the rallying cries of the UDD. And in case one is in the fanciful mood of imagining that there is any distance between the Yingluck administration and Thaksin's UDD in any shape or form - they have followed exactly the same course. Yingluck pushed all the UDD buttons in her recent address, accusing the NACC essentially of conspiracy.The Pheu Thai administration has devoted itself to attacking the independent institutions and the courts during their tenure. The only difference is that now these attacks are a daily occurrence. For a sitting administration to be questioning and defying the independent agencies, the courts, and the rule of law - is jaw-dropping. And treasonous. There is no space between Thaksin, Surapong, Chalerm, Jataporn, Nuttawut, and Thida. None whatsoever. They are all a unit and a profound threat to the judicial checks and balances. After all, the only, only reason Thaksin is not here is because of these very institutions and the courts. They have been the only thing that has kept Thaksin away. And their function under the constitution must be protected and honoured.

[hellodolly]

I agree, but the current situation won't allow that to happen. It's clear that all Suthep and his street mob wants is to topple the government so they, amongst other things, can be in charge of such "reforms". They refuse any negotiations.

It seems pretty clear that the real agenda of the PDRC has nothing to do with reforms.

How do you know what the real agenda of the PDRC is? Has it been published somewhere or you part of their secret agenda meetings?

Well you have to admit he got the topple the government part right.That is not a secret.

I would be interested in hearing his answer to your excellent question.

[casualbiker]

What reasons? The checks and balances worked, the Senate rejected the bill. End of.

Or it would have been if that fat jerk and his backers hadn't hijacked the whole thing in order to protect the status quo and make sure that the "right" people are in charge for certain future events.

Stuff all to do with corruption or reform.

They worked ONLY because the protestors were out condemning the bill.. if they hadn't been would the "checks and balances " have worked? Considering the Phua Thai government and its lackeys (house speaker etc) slammed it through.

Do you honestly think that Thailand DOESN'T need political reform?

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

l didn't say I was against reform did I? I would welcome it, especially judicial reform, but after elections.

My point was that reform or corruption are the last things on the minds of the people using suthep.

Can you tell me how Yingluck's reform community is coming along. Has it been formed yet. Any thing since the PR stunts in November? Anything about reform?

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[uty6543]

I was thinking of coming to Thailaned in June. Anyone think this is a bad idea now? I've read this forum for months

and it always seems like Thailand is on the brink of civil war if you read some of the posts, but my Wife says it will

never happen. Any thoughts?

The worst political violence was in 2010 with 90+ deaths. The number of road deaths every week is more than double that. So IMO if you are not going to come to Thailand in June don't let it be because of the political violence. You can avoid the places were violence is a possibility but you cannot avoid the roads. I agree with your wife civil war will never happen in Thailand.

[hellodolly]

What reasons? The checks and balances worked, the Senate rejected the bill. End of.

Or it would have been if that fat jerk and his backers hadn't hijacked the whole thing in order to protect the status quo and make sure that the "right" people are in charge for certain future events.

Stuff all to do with corruption or reform.

They worked ONLY because the protestors were out condemning the bill.. if they hadn't been would the "checks and balances " have worked? Considering the Phua Thai government and its lackeys (house speaker etc) slammed it through.

Do you honestly think that Thailand DOESN'T need political reform?

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

l didn't say I was against reform did I? I would welcome it, especially judicial reform, but after elections.

My point was that reform or corruption are the last things on the minds of the people using suthep.

Can you give us a list of the names of the People using Suthep?

Thaksin Shinawatra is the one using the Government.

Your turn.

I thought not.

Thought I would throw that in now as I already know your answer.

The Elite the Hi So the Amarat. Same answer as all the other conspiracy believers.

No names just mysterious conspirators.

If you do manage to come up with their names please provide proof. Not your typical conspiracy answer .No names.