Why it isn't a class struggle: Thai opinion

[noitom]

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It's about having access to the trough for the next 50 years. One lot of oligarchs had it for the last 50, this is about settling who gets shoved out or stays for the next.

The next set of Kleptocrats.

[Scamper]

A brilliant article, pinioned on the premise of class struggle. Indeed, the argument is so brilliantly followed-through in a series of well-asked questions, that the writer convinces on the proposition that he makes. There is no question that playing into a class struggle has fit very nicely into the hands of Jataporn, Nuattawut and the UDD. But these individuals in the leadership have two distinct qualities - they are running with the only narrative that seems to have been able to get results ( i.e. political power - for those only at the top, of course ) - and they are also very rich. The hierarchy of both sides - Pheu Thai and the PDRC - are themselves balanced between pretty well fixed and rolling in dough, and all the movers and shakers within both parties have burgeoning bank balances. The poor therefore become more pawns than objectives in and of themselves. It has been a gambit that has worked - for awhile. And then something unseemly happened. The poor got wise to it. And now they have revolted to the extent that the UDD itself has now turned itself against them. The UDD's methods in dealing with them have been essentially the same. Only the semantics have changed - the " UDD labeling ", as it were. " Elite " has now been magically transformed into a mock struggle between " real " and " fake " farmers. So much for power to the people. In many ways, the true sea-change in Thailand's shifting political tides - has been ushered in by the farmers themselves. And that's a wonderful thing.

Edited February 26, 2014 by Scamper

[smutcakes]

A brilliant article, pinioned on the premise of class struggle. Indeed, the argument is so brilliantly followed-through in a series of well-asked questions, that the writer convinces on the proposition that he makes. There is no question that playing into a class struggle has fit very nicely into the hands of Jataporn, Nuattawut and the UDD. But these individuals in the leadership have two distinct qualities - they are running with the only narrative that seems to have been able to get results ( i.e. political power - for those only at the top, of course ) - and they are also very rich. The hierarchy of both sides - Pheu Thai and the PDRC - are themselves balances between pretty well fixed and rolling in dough, and all the movers and shakers within both parties have burgeoning bank balances. The poor therefore become more pawns than objectives in and of themselves. It has been a gambit that has worked - for awhile. And then something unseemly happened. The poor got wise to it. And now they have revolted to the extent that the UDD itself has now turned itself against them. The UDD's methods in dealing with them have been essentially the same. Only the semantics have changed - the " UDD labeling ", as it were. " Elite " has now been magically transformed into a mock struggle between " real " and " fake " farmers. So much for power to the people. In many ways, the true sea-change in Thailand's shifting political tides - has been ushered in by the farmers themselves. And that's a wonderful thing.

So in essence you have one party who give the impression that they are helping the poor (PTP) and one party who have never done anything to help them or even made an effort to give the impression that they care about them.

Ergo PTP wins every single election.

Not particularly complicated. What will get complicated, is when the PTP are thrown out again by machinations outside of the ballot box, then things will get messy and i dont agree with any violence, but i can see the frustration of their votes being repeatedly thrown out will lead to mass blood shed.

[zakk9]

A brilliant article, pinioned on the premise of class struggle. Indeed, the argument is so brilliantly followed-through in a series of well-asked questions, that the writer convinces on the proposition that he makes. There is no question that playing into a class struggle has fit very nicely into the hands of Jataporn, Nuattawut and the UDD. But these individuals in the leadership have two distinct qualities - they are running with the only narrative that seems to have been able to get results ( i.e. political power - for those only at the top, of course ) - and they are also very rich. The hierarchy of both sides - Pheu Thai and the PDRC - are themselves balances between pretty well fixed and rolling in dough, and all the movers and shakers within both parties have burgeoning bank balances. The poor therefore become more pawns than objectives in and of themselves. It has been a gambit that has worked - for awhile. And then something unseemly happened. The poor got wise to it. And now they have revolted to the extent that the UDD itself has now turned itself against them. The UDD's methods in dealing with them have been essentially the same. Only the semantics have changed - the " UDD labeling ", as it were. " Elite " has now been magically transformed into a mock struggle between " real " and " fake " farmers. So much for power to the people. In many ways, the true sea-change in Thailand's shifting political tides - has been ushered in by the farmers themselves. And that's a wonderful thing.

So in essence you have one party who give the impression that they are helping the poor (PTP) and one party who have never done anything to help them or even made an effort to give the impression that they care about them.

Ergo PTP wins every single election.

Not particularly complicated. What will get complicated, is when the PTP are thrown out again by machinations outside of the ballot box, then things will get messy and i dont agree with any violence, but i can see the frustration of their votes being repeatedly thrown out will lead to mass blood shed.

It isn't true that the Democrats have never done anything for the poor, but they have done far too little and they have been outbid by Thaksin. just a technical thing, but still. I spoke with someone who follows Thai politics very closely a couple of years ago, and his theory was that the reason for PTP's outrageous populist overbidding was that the Democrats actually started to do something for the rice farmers and poor people in general. So the election campaign became a bidding contest that the Democrats didn't really take part in.

A western politician who promises too much will usually just forget about many of those promises after the election. The voters will grumble, but will usually forget about most of it before the next time they're going to vote. PTP showed it's lacking experience by doing everything they promised in too short time, probably not out of honesty, but because there were so many possibilities of skimming off money during the process that they couldn't resist. Unfortunately, they forgot to buy a calculator, or the whole thing simply got out of control.

Edited February 26, 2014 by zakk9

[lannathai]

Thailand never had a class struggle idea before Thaksin entered the politics. It's just a myth believed only by either brainwashed or idiots who fell for the red propaganda. Before Thaksin, Thai people loved each other. They had differences but they're never rallied to kill off each other just because of the different opinions. Sure Thailand always have rich and poor but just like in other developing countries, China, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc. they have class struggle too. However for Thailand the elite that Thaksin really hates are just for those people who are against him. The people who insisted that he had to abide by the laws. But Thaksin always believes he's above the laws and all that, power is power. Once he knows how to win the election, he believes he has the full mandate to commit any crimes or any corruptions.

The elite that Thaksin often referred to is a former military man who happened to be Thailand's longest serving PM,
Gen Prem, However Gen Prem did nothing but honestly governed Thailand for so many years and helped steering the country toward the first general election, so Thai people can elect their own prime minister. After he retired from PM post, Thailand had seen the first PM democratically elected from the general election and Gen Prem was the person who laid the groundwork for Thailand democracy during his tenure.

The Elite, Gen Prem governed the country for so many years. Unlike Thaksin, Prem's never had any corruption allegations before and after he left the post. No one ever questioned his honesty because he's lived like a poor man all his life. The red can say anything but the house this elite is currently living is still the same house someone donated to him long time ago, a simple house, and he also stayed in another government house. That's it. Many Thai people respect him because he's a man of honor who dedicated his whole life for the country.

Just like our king Bhumipol, another Elite . The king himself could choose to live in luxury lifestyle but instead dedicated the entire of his young life to visit the poor people in the remote areas. It's well documented that he set up so many projects for the poor. Indeed he is one of the greatest social workers the world's ever seen. He may be too old to work now but Thai people will remember him forever. There is a reason why people love him so much, foreigners can scratch their heads all they want LOL, Thais could love him more than any other king in Thailand history.The love is real because they've seen it all through their eyes. Their king dedicated his entire life to help his country people and that's why no one can ever break the bond he has with his country men and women.

Thaksin hates Prem because they always had disagreements in many things. Back then Thaksin's allegations were well known. In fact he was the one who wanted to get the king involved in politics. When he lost a corruption lawsuit he wants to pressure the king to forgive him in public. Of course Prem and any sane people will disagree with him. So now according to Thaksin's supporters, Prem and those who are against him are the elite people, the conservatives, or the royalists who are against the democratically elected government.

Unlike any Thai politicians in the past Thaksin has so much money so he could gear up the red propaganda machine in the rural area. He targets the poor, low educated people who are generally naive and concern only to have food on the table everyday. There are so many of them. When someone comes to their houses and offers them money, gifts, they will definitely take it. If you know anything about Thai culture, most of them are innocent bhuddists who tend to believe that people who give them stuffs are always good people, regardless if they are thieves, murderers, etc. Thai people by nature is forgiving people and they will not care as long as they get the benefit, they will vote for the guy. Thaksin exploited them. His red propaganda surely taught them to believe in class differences, taught them to hate the highly revered king, he would want to turn this country toward the presidential system which will reduce the royal family to normal people. However all his crazy ideas will FAIL LOL. I bet most likely Yingluck will have to go to jail because of her corruption before anything else could happen. .

[smutcakes]

Thailand never had a class struggle idea before Thaksin entered the politics. It's just a myth believed only by either brainwashed or idiots who fell for the red propaganda. Before Thaksin, Thai people loved each other. They had differences but they're never rallied to kill off each other just because of the different opinions. Sure Thailand always have rich and poor but just like in other developing countries, China, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc. they have class struggle too. However for Thailand the elite that Thaksin really hates are just for those people who are against him. The people who insisted that he had to abide by the laws. But Thaksin always believes he's above the laws and all that, power is power. Once he knows how to win the election, he believes he has the full mandate to commit any crimes or any corruptions.

The elite that Thaksin often referred to is a former military man who happened to be Thailand's longest serving PM,

Gen Prem, However Gen Prem did nothing but honestly governed Thailand for so many years and helped steering the country toward the first general election, so Thai people can elect their own prime minister. After he retired from PM post, Thailand had seen the first PM democratically elected from the general election and Gen Prem was the person who laid the groundwork for Thailand democracy during his tenure.

The Elite, Gen Prem governed the country for so many years. Unlike Thaksin, Prem's never had any corruption allegations before and after he left the post. No one ever questioned his honesty because he's lived like a poor man all his life. The red can say anything but the house this elite is currently living is still the same house someone donated to him long time ago, a simple house, and he also stayed in another government house. That's it. Many Thai people respect him because he's a man of honor who dedicated his whole life for the country.

Just like our king Bhumipol, another Elite . The king himself could choose to live in luxury lifestyle but instead dedicated the entire of his young life to visit the poor people in the remote areas. It's well documented that he set up so many projects for the poor. Indeed he is one of the greatest social workers the world's ever seen. He may be too old to work now but Thai people will remember him forever. There is a reason why people love him so much, foreigners can scratch their heads all they want LOL, Thais could love him more than any other king in Thailand history.The love is real because they've seen it all through their eyes. Their king dedicated his entire life to help his country people and that's why no one can ever break the bond he has with his country men and women.

Thaksin hates Prem because they always had disagreements in many things. Back then Thaksin's allegations were well known. In fact he was the one who wanted to get the king involved in politics. When he lost a corruption lawsuit he wants to pressure the king to forgive him in public. Of course Prem and any sane people will disagree with him. So now according to Thaksin's supporters, Prem and those who are against him are the elite people, the conservatives, or the royalists who are against the democratically elected government.

Unlike any Thai politicians in the past Thaksin has so much money so he could gear up the red propaganda machine in the rural area. He targets the poor, low educated people who are generally naive and concern only to have food on the table everyday. There are so many of them. When someone comes to their houses and offers them money, gifts, they will definitely take it. If you know anything about Thai culture, most of them are innocent bhuddists who tend to believe that people who give them stuffs are always good people, regardless if they are thieves, murderers, etc. Thai people by nature is forgiving people and they will not care as long as they get the benefit, they will vote for the guy. Thaksin exploited them. His red propaganda surely taught them to believe in class differences, taught them to hate the highly revered king, he would want to turn this country toward the presidential system which will reduce the royal family to normal people. However all his crazy ideas will FAIL LOL. I bet most likely Yingluck will have to go to jail because of her corruption before anything else could happen. .

If General Prem etc was such a special man, why has 99.9999% of the population be living in relative poverty whilst the .01% in BKK have been lauding it up for decades. His and all Governments lethargy in dealing with socio-economic issues of the country is what allowed the power vacuum which Thaskin stepped into being created.

Your post is complete rubbish by the way.

[Thai at Heart]

Of course it's a 'Class Struggle' .. Rich v Rich for control of the Poor

The Poor are the majority, so whoever wins the hearts and minds of the poor controls access to the trough.

Once access to the Trough has been established, they work hard to maintain it and increasing its content.

Therefore the Poor are of vital importance to both sides, and for both sides, it's vitally important to make sure

that they remain Poor.

Beyond the bluster, nobody really cares about the plight of the poor, Dems or PTP, PDRC or UDD leaderships alike.

They only care about themselves and as they plunder the Nation, the poor do the work AND pay the ultimate price.

How many of the 21 dead and 735 injured do we think were millionaires?

How many of those claiming from stages or in parliament to be helping the Poor do we think are millionaires?

Of course the problem here is that the Democrat side did a piss poor job of winning the hearts and minds of the poor because they didn't think it was worthwhile. They had to settle for the small middle class, which isn't any better in a fight than the elites. If there would have been some sort of connection with the northeast the rice fiasco would have been sufficient to bring down PTP. They had a golden opportunity to do this by the rule book

Now its a mess and democracy is out the window.

Time for a do-over.

By most western standards, the middle class in thailand would be poor anyway. It's just a misnomer to call 50k baht per month middle class.

One upmanship is alive and well in thailand.

[Thai at Heart]

Wow lannathai, those are the rosiest specs I have ever seen. You aren't looking at the world through a fanta daerng are you?

[zakk9]

Thailand never had a class struggle idea before Thaksin entered the politics. It's just a myth believed only by either brainwashed or idiots who fell for the red propaganda. Before Thaksin, Thai people loved each other. They had differences but they're never rallied to kill off each other just because of the different opinions. Sure Thailand always have rich and poor but just like in other developing countries, China, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc. they have class struggle too. However for Thailand the elite that Thaksin really hates are just for those people who are against him. The people who insisted that he had to abide by the laws. But Thaksin always believes he's above the laws and all that, power is power. Once he knows how to win the election, he believes he has the full mandate to commit any crimes or any corruptions.

The elite that Thaksin often referred to is a former military man who happened to be Thailand's longest serving PM,

Gen Prem, However Gen Prem did nothing but honestly governed Thailand for so many years and helped steering the country toward the first general election, so Thai people can elect their own prime minister. After he retired from PM post, Thailand had seen the first PM democratically elected from the general election and Gen Prem was the person who laid the groundwork for Thailand democracy during his tenure.

The Elite, Gen Prem governed the country for so many years. Unlike Thaksin, Prem's never had any corruption allegations before and after he left the post. No one ever questioned his honesty because he's lived like a poor man all his life. The red can say anything but the house this elite is currently living is still the same house someone donated to him long time ago, a simple house, and he also stayed in another government house. That's it. Many Thai people respect him because he's a man of honor who dedicated his whole life for the country.

Just like our king Bhumipol, another Elite . The king himself could choose to live in luxury lifestyle but instead dedicated the entire of his young life to visit the poor people in the remote areas. It's well documented that he set up so many projects for the poor. Indeed he is one of the greatest social workers the world's ever seen. He may be too old to work now but Thai people will remember him forever. There is a reason why people love him so much, foreigners can scratch their heads all they want LOL, Thais could love him more than any other king in Thailand history.The love is real because they've seen it all through their eyes. Their king dedicated his entire life to help his country people and that's why no one can ever break the bond he has with his country men and women.

Thaksin hates Prem because they always had disagreements in many things. Back then Thaksin's allegations were well known. In fact he was the one who wanted to get the king involved in politics. When he lost a corruption lawsuit he wants to pressure the king to forgive him in public. Of course Prem and any sane people will disagree with him. So now according to Thaksin's supporters, Prem and those who are against him are the elite people, the conservatives, or the royalists who are against the democratically elected government.

Unlike any Thai politicians in the past Thaksin has so much money so he could gear up the red propaganda machine in the rural area. He targets the poor, low educated people who are generally naive and concern only to have food on the table everyday. There are so many of them. When someone comes to their houses and offers them money, gifts, they will definitely take it. If you know anything about Thai culture, most of them are innocent bhuddists who tend to believe that people who give them stuffs are always good people, regardless if they are thieves, murderers, etc. Thai people by nature is forgiving people and they will not care as long as they get the benefit, they will vote for the guy. Thaksin exploited them. His red propaganda surely taught them to believe in class differences, taught them to hate the highly revered king, he would want to turn this country toward the presidential system which will reduce the royal family to normal people. However all his crazy ideas will FAIL LOL. I bet most likely Yingluck will have to go to jail because of her corruption before anything else could happen. .

If General Prem etc was such a special man, why has 99.9999% of the population be living in relative poverty whilst the .01% in BKK have been lauding it up for decades. His and all Governments lethargy in dealing with socio-economic issues of the country is what allowed the power vacuum which Thaskin stepped into being created.

Your post is complete rubbish by the way.

You Mr. Nutcase, who I assume is not born in this country and not a citizen, could to start with show some respect for a Thai who has taken the time to write a lengthy piece on this forum. Secondly, if you compare Thailand today and the way most people live now, compared to how they lived 50 years ago, the differences are gigantic, even for poor farmers. If you were not here 50 years ago, I suggest you keep quiet about your 99.9999%. You apparently know nothing about Thainess anyway.

[smutcakes]

Thailand never had a class struggle idea before Thaksin entered the politics. It's just a myth believed only by either brainwashed or idiots who fell for the red propaganda. Before Thaksin, Thai people loved each other. They had differences but they're never rallied to kill off each other just because of the different opinions. Sure Thailand always have rich and poor but just like in other developing countries, China, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc. they have class struggle too. However for Thailand the elite that Thaksin really hates are just for those people who are against him. The people who insisted that he had to abide by the laws. But Thaksin always believes he's above the laws and all that, power is power. Once he knows how to win the election, he believes he has the full mandate to commit any crimes or any corruptions.

The elite that Thaksin often referred to is a former military man who happened to be Thailand's longest serving PM,

Gen Prem, However Gen Prem did nothing but honestly governed Thailand for so many years and helped steering the country toward the first general election, so Thai people can elect their own prime minister. After he retired from PM post, Thailand had seen the first PM democratically elected from the general election and Gen Prem was the person who laid the groundwork for Thailand democracy during his tenure.

The Elite, Gen Prem governed the country for so many years. Unlike Thaksin, Prem's never had any corruption allegations before and after he left the post. No one ever questioned his honesty because he's lived like a poor man all his life. The red can say anything but the house this elite is currently living is still the same house someone donated to him long time ago, a simple house, and he also stayed in another government house. That's it. Many Thai people respect him because he's a man of honor who dedicated his whole life for the country.

Just like our king Bhumipol, another Elite . The king himself could choose to live in luxury lifestyle but instead dedicated the entire of his young life to visit the poor people in the remote areas. It's well documented that he set up so many projects for the poor. Indeed he is one of the greatest social workers the world's ever seen. He may be too old to work now but Thai people will remember him forever. There is a reason why people love him so much, foreigners can scratch their heads all they want LOL, Thais could love him more than any other king in Thailand history.The love is real because they've seen it all through their eyes. Their king dedicated his entire life to help his country people and that's why no one can ever break the bond he has with his country men and women.

Thaksin hates Prem because they always had disagreements in many things. Back then Thaksin's allegations were well known. In fact he was the one who wanted to get the king involved in politics. When he lost a corruption lawsuit he wants to pressure the king to forgive him in public. Of course Prem and any sane people will disagree with him. So now according to Thaksin's supporters, Prem and those who are against him are the elite people, the conservatives, or the royalists who are against the democratically elected government.

Unlike any Thai politicians in the past Thaksin has so much money so he could gear up the red propaganda machine in the rural area. He targets the poor, low educated people who are generally naive and concern only to have food on the table everyday. There are so many of them. When someone comes to their houses and offers them money, gifts, they will definitely take it. If you know anything about Thai culture, most of them are innocent bhuddists who tend to believe that people who give them stuffs are always good people, regardless if they are thieves, murderers, etc. Thai people by nature is forgiving people and they will not care as long as they get the benefit, they will vote for the guy. Thaksin exploited them. His red propaganda surely taught them to believe in class differences, taught them to hate the highly revered king, he would want to turn this country toward the presidential system which will reduce the royal family to normal people. However all his crazy ideas will FAIL LOL. I bet most likely Yingluck will have to go to jail because of her corruption before anything else could happen. .

If General Prem etc was such a special man, why has 99.9999% of the population be living in relative poverty whilst the .01% in BKK have been lauding it up for decades. His and all Governments lethargy in dealing with socio-economic issues of the country is what allowed the power vacuum which Thaskin stepped into being created.

Your post is complete rubbish by the way.

You Mr. Nutcase, who I assume is not born in this country and not a citizen, could to start with show some respect for a Thai who has taken the time to write a lengthy piece on this forum. Secondly, if you compare Thailand today and the way most people live now, compared to how they lived 50 years ago, the differences are gigantic, even for poor farmers. If you were not here 50 years ago, I suggest you keep quiet about your 99.9999%. You apparently know nothing about Thainess anyway.

What has living here 50 years ago got anything to do with anything? If the Governments of the past 8 decades had spent more time improving education, infrastructure, health care and the wealth distribution and opportunity throughout the country instead of them and their cronies have their fat snouts in the trough, then perhaps the voting population would be a far less easy to manipulate by unscrupulous politicians.

Having said that working in BKK, i meet a fair few of the so called 'educated' Bangkok Thais, and i would question whether they really have the capacity to think for themselves either. I think the current protests reveal that despite being 'educated' they are easily manipulated as well.

[Jonmarleesco]

It would be something were some of the less informed foreign media to read this article ... and take the message onboard.

[zakk9]

Thailand never had a class struggle idea before Thaksin entered the politics. It's just a myth believed only by either brainwashed or idiots who fell for the red propaganda. Before Thaksin, Thai people loved each other. They had differences but they're never rallied to kill off each other just because of the different opinions. Sure Thailand always have rich and poor but just like in other developing countries, China, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc. they have class struggle too. However for Thailand the elite that Thaksin really hates are just for those people who are against him. The people who insisted that he had to abide by the laws. But Thaksin always believes he's above the laws and all that, power is power. Once he knows how to win the election, he believes he has the full mandate to commit any crimes or any corruptions.

The elite that Thaksin often referred to is a former military man who happened to be Thailand's longest serving PM,

Gen Prem, However Gen Prem did nothing but honestly governed Thailand for so many years and helped steering the country toward the first general election, so Thai people can elect their own prime minister. After he retired from PM post, Thailand had seen the first PM democratically elected from the general election and Gen Prem was the person who laid the groundwork for Thailand democracy during his tenure.

The Elite, Gen Prem governed the country for so many years. Unlike Thaksin, Prem's never had any corruption allegations before and after he left the post. No one ever questioned his honesty because he's lived like a poor man all his life. The red can say anything but the house this elite is currently living is still the same house someone donated to him long time ago, a simple house, and he also stayed in another government house. That's it. Many Thai people respect him because he's a man of honor who dedicated his whole life for the country.

Just like our king Bhumipol, another Elite . The king himself could choose to live in luxury lifestyle but instead dedicated the entire of his young life to visit the poor people in the remote areas. It's well documented that he set up so many projects for the poor. Indeed he is one of the greatest social workers the world's ever seen. He may be too old to work now but Thai people will remember him forever. There is a reason why people love him so much, foreigners can scratch their heads all they want LOL, Thais could love him more than any other king in Thailand history.The love is real because they've seen it all through their eyes. Their king dedicated his entire life to help his country people and that's why no one can ever break the bond he has with his country men and women.

Thaksin hates Prem because they always had disagreements in many things. Back then Thaksin's allegations were well known. In fact he was the one who wanted to get the king involved in politics. When he lost a corruption lawsuit he wants to pressure the king to forgive him in public. Of course Prem and any sane people will disagree with him. So now according to Thaksin's supporters, Prem and those who are against him are the elite people, the conservatives, or the royalists who are against the democratically elected government.

Unlike any Thai politicians in the past Thaksin has so much money so he could gear up the red propaganda machine in the rural area. He targets the poor, low educated people who are generally naive and concern only to have food on the table everyday. There are so many of them. When someone comes to their houses and offers them money, gifts, they will definitely take it. If you know anything about Thai culture, most of them are innocent bhuddists who tend to believe that people who give them stuffs are always good people, regardless if they are thieves, murderers, etc. Thai people by nature is forgiving people and they will not care as long as they get the benefit, they will vote for the guy. Thaksin exploited them. His red propaganda surely taught them to believe in class differences, taught them to hate the highly revered king, he would want to turn this country toward the presidential system which will reduce the royal family to normal people. However all his crazy ideas will FAIL LOL. I bet most likely Yingluck will have to go to jail because of her corruption before anything else could happen. .

If General Prem etc was such a special man, why has 99.9999% of the population be living in relative poverty whilst the .01% in BKK have been lauding it up for decades. His and all Governments lethargy in dealing with socio-economic issues of the country is what allowed the power vacuum which Thaskin stepped into being created.

Your post is complete rubbish by the way.

You Mr. Nutcase, who I assume is not born in this country and not a citizen, could to start with show some respect for a Thai who has taken the time to write a lengthy piece on this forum. Secondly, if you compare Thailand today and the way most people live now, compared to how they lived 50 years ago, the differences are gigantic, even for poor farmers. If you were not here 50 years ago, I suggest you keep quiet about your 99.9999%. You apparently know nothing about Thainess anyway.

What has living here 50 years ago got anything to do with anything? If the Governments of the past 8 decades had spent more time improving education, infrastructure, health care and the wealth distribution and opportunity throughout the country instead of them and their cronies have their fat snouts in the trough, then perhaps the voting population would be a far less easy to manipulate by unscrupulous politicians.

Having said that working in BKK, i meet a fair few of the so called 'educated' Bangkok Thais, and i would question whether they really have the capacity to think for themselves either. I think the current protests reveal that despite being 'educated' they are easily manipulated as well.

What you say may or may not be correct, but it's their country, not yours. As a foreigner, you can give them advice and help them on their way, but you are getting nowhere in this society by telling them how to handle their lives, and by not showing the citizens some respect, you are already a loser.

[gemini81]

Thailand never had a class struggle idea before Thaksin entered the politics. It's just a myth believed only by either brainwashed or idiots who fell for the red propaganda. Before Thaksin, Thai people loved each other. They had differences but they're never rallied to kill off each other just because of the different opinions. Sure Thailand always have rich and poor but just like in other developing countries, China, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc. they have class struggle too. However for Thailand the elite that Thaksin really hates are just for those people who are against him. The people who insisted that he had to abide by the laws. But Thaksin always believes he's above the laws and all that, power is power. Once he knows how to win the election, he believes he has the full mandate to commit any crimes or any corruptions.

The elite that Thaksin often referred to is a former military man who happened to be Thailand's longest serving PM,

Gen Prem, However Gen Prem did nothing but honestly governed Thailand for so many years and helped steering the country toward the first general election, so Thai people can elect their own prime minister. After he retired from PM post, Thailand had seen the first PM democratically elected from the general election and Gen Prem was the person who laid the groundwork for Thailand democracy during his tenure.

The Elite, Gen Prem governed the country for so many years. Unlike Thaksin, Prem's never had any corruption allegations before and after he left the post. No one ever questioned his honesty because he's lived like a poor man all his life. The red can say anything but the house this elite is currently living is still the same house someone donated to him long time ago, a simple house, and he also stayed in another government house. That's it. Many Thai people respect him because he's a man of honor who dedicated his whole life for the country.

Just like our king Bhumipol, another Elite . The king himself could choose to live in luxury lifestyle but instead dedicated the entire of his young life to visit the poor people in the remote areas. It's well documented that he set up so many projects for the poor. Indeed he is one of the greatest social workers the world's ever seen. He may be too old to work now but Thai people will remember him forever. There is a reason why people love him so much, foreigners can scratch their heads all they want LOL, Thais could love him more than any other king in Thailand history.The love is real because they've seen it all through their eyes. Their king dedicated his entire life to help his country people and that's why no one can ever break the bond he has with his country men and women.

Thaksin hates Prem because they always had disagreements in many things. Back then Thaksin's allegations were well known. In fact he was the one who wanted to get the king involved in politics. When he lost a corruption lawsuit he wants to pressure the king to forgive him in public. Of course Prem and any sane people will disagree with him. So now according to Thaksin's supporters, Prem and those who are against him are the elite people, the conservatives, or the royalists who are against the democratically elected government.

Unlike any Thai politicians in the past Thaksin has so much money so he could gear up the red propaganda machine in the rural area. He targets the poor, low educated people who are generally naive and concern only to have food on the table everyday. There are so many of them. When someone comes to their houses and offers them money, gifts, they will definitely take it. If you know anything about Thai culture, most of them are innocent bhuddists who tend to believe that people who give them stuffs are always good people, regardless if they are thieves, murderers, etc. Thai people by nature is forgiving people and they will not care as long as they get the benefit, they will vote for the guy. Thaksin exploited them. His red propaganda surely taught them to believe in class differences, taught them to hate the highly revered king, he would want to turn this country toward the presidential system which will reduce the royal family to normal people. However all his crazy ideas will FAIL LOL. I bet most likely Yingluck will have to go to jail because of her corruption before anything else could happen. .

The weasel in Dubai is by far the worst; but Thailand's class problems go way, way back...........just look around and notice how obsessed people are in the city are to this day with class & status far beyond you & I, going back to trying to prove to others, it seems, that they are above those in economic disparity (especially noticeable among the Thai/chinese)

Edited February 26, 2014 by gemini81

[smutcakes]

I respect those who deserve respect, not like Thai's who respect those who have power, money or the status that gives them. Thanks for telling me how i should treat this forum and people in Thailand though, i will bare it in mind.

[zakk9]

I respect those who deserve respect, not like Thai's who respect those who have power, money or the status that gives them. Thanks for telling me how i should treat this forum and people in Thailand though, i will bare it in mind.

If the last comment was a sarcasm, let it rest. Unfortunately, many of the discussions on thaivisa.com have a majority of participants who aim to tell Thai people how to deal with reality. If you are not one of them, all the better.

[Thai at Heart]

I respect those who deserve respect, not like Thai's who respect those who have power, money or the status that gives them. Thanks for telling me how i should treat this forum and people in Thailand though, i will bare it in mind.

Pooyais always know best.

Always, and don't you forget it.

[zakk9]

Pooyais always know best.

Always, and don't you forget it.

There are ways around that too, luckily

[flashysite]

This is about greed, power, revenge and hatred. From both sides.

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

[CantSpell]

Strange....

An article stating some interesting well known facts that many would apparently not accept.

Article stating its isn't a class struggle....

Then most of the answers are negatives and against the OP with answer like:

"No!!! itsn't a class struggle" OP is wrong....

Makes you wonder if posters actually read it until the end....

Anyway, to OP:

Edited February 26, 2014 by CantSpell

[antimedia]

Yingluck Shinawatra, granddaughter of Princess Jantip na Chiangmai, born into incredible riches and power, one of the world's richest women without ever having done a days work in her life. Leading a grassroots revolt against the rich and privileged? For real?

well let me answer this became it IS a fair point...

please do not assume that those who are sympathetic to the 'red' cause are necessarily supporters of the Shins! personally I don't want Khun Thaksin back although I do believe he has been demonized for political purposes.

many of us support the present government BECAUSE it was democratically elected and the bullies who can't win at the polls want to disrupt them BECAUSE they lost - if this is not true WHY did Suthep not push for reforms when in power? WHY did Abhisit not say all these things back when he was PM? they had plenty of opportunity to push reform - they did not? WHY?

Only when they realised they could not win did they start their 'reform whinge' and let's 'destroy Bangkok' if we can't win an election

The clever part is they 'manipulated' the genuine feelings of people against corruption and so let's demonize this figure, throw out his family, an have an 'unelected elite' in power - I mean why bother with that silly thing called democracy?

and so it's not about supporting the rich Shins rather it's about supporting the poor, disenfranchised in Thailand and supporting DEMOCRACY - if Dems had won I would support them too (but probably not like them very much)

surely we MUST safeguard the basic human rights of Free Speech (no censorship/les majeste) and Free Elections (no blocking voting) and, of course, put pressure from ALL quarters against corruption (number ONE priority)

How does vote rigging, vote buying and other corruption = democratically elected?

[tonbridgebrit]

Yes, the leadership of both the Thaksin party and Abhisit's Democrats are rich people, these people are the 'elite'. But let's look at the VOTERS of these political parties.

Most of us do know that the bulk of the rural and urban poor DO actually cheer on the Thaksin party. Look at the voters of these parties, and we can then see what struggle this actually is.

[zakk9]

Yes, the leadership of both the Thaksin party and Abhisit's Democrats are rich people, these people are the 'elite'. But let's look at the VOTERS of these political parties.

Most of us do know that the bulk of the rural and urban poor DO actually cheer on the Thaksin party. Look at the voters of these parties, and we can then see what struggle this actually is.

That isn't true either. Trat, which is one of the poorer provinces, vote mainly Democrat, which was probably why they were attacked. South of Thailand, the rural areas, are not rich, but they vote Democrat. Chiang Mai is a rich province, but they vote PTP... etc.

[PREM-R]

another silly article from the elite mouthpiece

same pattern as in many other countries only difference in Thailand is that the mob is struggling AGAINST democracy whereas in every other country they fight FOR democracy TIT

the people will win through in the end but it's a long paradigm shift *sigh*

expect the elite to whine and struggle as it clings to power - the one clever thing they have done is convince some Thais and many TVF posters is that THEY (the un-democrats) are for democratic change, against corruption and want reform

clever that!!! but you can't fool all the people all of the time etc. and that is their problem (NO agenda, NO ideas, NO roadmap, NO timeline, NO suggestions of WHO these unelected 'rulers' will be)

Who exactly are the "elite" you refer to?

People with money? Business people? Someone else? Please clarify just "who" you think the elite is at the moment . . . and "why" you think they are elite . . . I'm very curious to know.

I generally agree with Binjalin and I define the "elite" as the old power structure who do TEND TO BE wealthy, well-educated, industrialists, capitalists, etc..., and are concentrated in Bangkok. What PRIMARILY DEFINES them as elitists is they are ANTI-DEMOCRATIC and believe the common people of Thailand who TEND TO BE poor, uneducated, small business owners or day-workers, farmers and dispersed throughout the rural areas are incapable of governing themselves. The "elites" believe they are the only ones who should be allowed to govern. A government built on this type of philosophy is usually some form of OLIGARCHY based on some combination of their qualities (wealth, education, birth, etc...).

That is how I define "elitists"...

Thank you, great description of what you think an "elite" is.

Now explain to me how or why Thaksin and his financial supporters are not themselves "elite" ...

"Now explain to me how or why Thaksin and his financial supporters are not themselves "elite" ..."

There have been many on TVF who have suggested that Thaksin and the Shinawatra family are ‘Amart’ (Elite) but that is not the case. The TRUE Amart are families, mostly Bangkok based, who are related to 19^th Century, Siam royalty. In those days of absolute monarchy, these families were part of ‘Court’ and were able to amass their huge fortunes by using information from within the palace. In the modern age it would probably be described as “Insider Dealing”. As examples, when the canals of Bangkok were to be filled in and turned into roads, those, in the know, purchased the land on either side of the canals prior to the announcement of the project and consequently made a killing, also when the Dutch Engineer Van Der Heide showed the Siamese how he could provide irrigation to the central plains at the start of the 20^th century, those ITK purchased the land that was to be in the scheme and AFAIK, to this day rent it back to the farmers. There is also evidence to suggest that Van Der Heide would have irrigated a much larger area of land but his offer was turned down, possibly to make the land that was irrigated far more valuable still.

It may or may not be related to Thailand becoming a constitutional monarchy in 1932 but it is interesting that the Singha Beer Company was formed in 1933, perhaps because the gravy train had come to an end for that family.

The information is available on the internet but is mostly contained in academic research documents.

[Tatsujin]

another silly article from the elite mouthpiece

same pattern as in many other countries only difference in Thailand is that the mob is struggling AGAINST democracy whereas in every other country they fight FOR democracy TIT

the people will win through in the end but it's a long paradigm shift *sigh*

expect the elite to whine and struggle as it clings to power - the one clever thing they have done is convince some Thais and many TVF posters is that THEY (the un-democrats) are for democratic change, against corruption and want reform

clever that!!! but you can't fool all the people all of the time etc. and that is their problem (NO agenda, NO ideas, NO roadmap, NO timeline, NO suggestions of WHO these unelected 'rulers' will be)

Who exactly are the "elite" you refer to?

People with money? Business people? Someone else? Please clarify just "who" you think the elite is at the moment . . . and "why" you think they are elite . . . I'm very curious to know.

I generally agree with Binjalin and I define the "elite" as the old power structure who do TEND TO BE wealthy, well-educated, industrialists, capitalists, etc..., and are concentrated in Bangkok. What PRIMARILY DEFINES them as elitists is they are ANTI-DEMOCRATIC and believe the common people of Thailand who TEND TO BE poor, uneducated, small business owners or day-workers, farmers and dispersed throughout the rural areas are incapable of governing themselves. The "elites" believe they are the only ones who should be allowed to govern. A government built on this type of philosophy is usually some form of OLIGARCHY based on some combination of their qualities (wealth, education, birth, etc...).

That is how I define "elitists"...

Thank you, great description of what you think an "elite" is.

Now explain to me how or why Thaksin and his financial supporters are not themselves "elite" ...

"Now explain to me how or why Thaksin and his financial supporters are not themselves "elite" ..."

There have been many on TVF who have suggested that Thaksin and the Shinawatra family are Amart (Elite) but that is not the case. The TRUE Amart are families, mostly Bangkok based, who are related to 19^th Century, Siam royalty. In those days of absolute monarchy, these families were part of Court and were able to amass their huge fortunes by using information from within the palace. In the modern age it would probably be described as Insider Dealing. As examples, when the canals of Bangkok were to be filled in and turned into roads, those, in the know, purchased the land on either side of the canals prior to the announcement of the project and consequently made a killing, also when the Dutch Engineer Van Der Heide showed the Siamese how he could provide irrigation to the central plains at the start of the 20^th century, those ITK purchased the land that was to be in the scheme and AFAIK, to this day rent it back to the farmers. There is also evidence to suggest that Van Der Heide would have irrigated a much larger area of land but his offer was turned down, possibly to make the land that was irrigated far more valuable still.

It may or may not be related to Thailand becoming a constitutional monarchy in 1932 but it is interesting that the Singha Beer Company was formed in 1933, perhaps because the gravy train had come to an end for that family.

The information is available on the internet but is mostly contained in academic research documents.

Thank you, so for a lot here, "elite" refers to older families with familial connections to the monarchy in some way.

Interesting you noted the land purchases, those same things continue now but it's not just the "amart" doing it now, it's anyone with money and connections.

What about the newly rich and powerful though? Are they not also "elite" when compared to 99.99% of the rest of the country?

For example, why does a pro-Govt farmer not consider Thaksin to be "elite"? Their worlds are so far apart in terms of wealth and power I would have thought that he is new "elite".

[tonbridgebrit]

Yes, the leadership of both the Thaksin party and Abhisit's Democrats are rich people, these people are the 'elite'. But let's look at the VOTERS of these political parties.

Most of us do know that the bulk of the rural and urban poor DO actually cheer on the Thaksin party. Look at the voters of these parties, and we can then see what struggle this actually is.

That isn't true either. Trat, which is one of the poorer provinces, vote mainly Democrat, which was probably why they were attacked. South of Thailand, the rural areas, are not rich, but they vote Democrat. Chiang Mai is a rich province, but they vote PTP... etc.

I didn't say all of them, I said "the bulk of them".

Most of us are bored with the international media going on and on about how Isaan is the voter base of all the Thaksin parties, and how the Thaksin parties have used populist policies to encourage most of the rural and urban poor to vote for them. People can criticise the rural poor for being tricked into voting for Thaksin, that's the opinion of those critics. But we can't get away from "most of the middle-class and elite (higher income people) vote for Abhisit's Democrats, whilst most of the rural and urban poor vote for Thaksin".

[PREM-R]

Purchasing land is a good investment for Amart or anyone else (not the foreigner) who has the cash to do it, remember, they are not making any more, so it is bound to become more valuable over time.

[citizen33]

We are not seeing a peasant revolution against a unified elite, but you have to be blind not to realise that the Thai class system is crucial to what is happening. We have a divided elite with one side favouring the continuation of the old feudal order, and the other side wedded to global capitalism and willing to allow social change for political advantage. Moreover the two sides take divergent views on what should happen after the event we cannot mention, which injects urgency into the timetable of conflict. Then we have a rising urban middle class, which for reasons of history and culture acts in a strikingly different way from middle class groups in other countries by aligning themselves with the traditional elite. Below them we have the urban and rural poor, whose position stands to change most, though - as McCargo and others have shown - it tends to be the more entrepreneurial social climbers who are the strongest supporters of PTP.

The OP asks why the traditional elite would damage the companies owned by new money. But that does not prove that class isn't involved; it only shows that the former are willing to fight hard to stop the latter introducing redistributive social policies and other changes that raise the political consciousness of the lower classes. Does the fact that the traditional elite raises money for farmers mean the conflict is not about class? Of course not, they are merely providing funds to allow farmers to sue the government to hasten its overthrow. Getting rid of PTP is crucial if the old elite wishes to safeguard what remains of the feudal order, and especially if it wants to control events after that unwanted event that cannot be discussed.

Edited February 26, 2014 by citizen33

[rogerdee123]

I think this is a good article and agree with the opinion.

[zakk9]

"Now explain to me how or why Thaksin and his financial supporters are not themselves "elite" ..."

There have been many on TVF who have suggested that Thaksin and the Shinawatra family are ‘Amart’ (Elite) but that is not the case. The TRUE Amart are families, mostly Bangkok based, who are related to 19^th Century, Siam royalty. In those days of absolute monarchy, these families were part of ‘Court’ and were able to amass their huge fortunes by using information from within the palace. In the modern age it would probably be described as “Insider Dealing”. As examples, when the canals of Bangkok were to be filled in and turned into roads, those, in the know, purchased the land on either side of the canals prior to the announcement of the project and consequently made a killing, also when the Dutch Engineer Van Der Heide showed the Siamese how he could provide irrigation to the central plains at the start of the 20^th century, those ITK purchased the land that was to be in the scheme and AFAIK, to this day rent it back to the farmers. There is also evidence to suggest that Van Der Heide would have irrigated a much larger area of land but his offer was turned down, possibly to make the land that was irrigated far more valuable still.

It may or may not be related to Thailand becoming a constitutional monarchy in 1932 but it is interesting that the Singha Beer Company was formed in 1933, perhaps because the gravy train had come to an end for that family.

The information is available on the internet but is mostly contained in academic research documents.

While this is interesting from a historical point of view, it has little relevance in current Thailand. If the Shinawatra family is a "true" elite or not have no consequences, and Chiang Mai was far out in the wilderness during most of the 19th century, it was still the Kingdom of Chiang Mai until 1884, with their own elite. King Chulalongkorn didn't even visit the region. The Shinawatra family settled in Chiang Mai in 1908.

The biggest difference between the Shinawatras and the Bangkok families is that the Shinawatras, being Chinese immigrants, built their fortune on commercial enterprise from the outset. However, most of the influential Bangkok families have turned to the same thing over time, and they all follow a similar muster: using their massive resources and extensive networks to increase their wealth. But while the traditional Bangkok families seem to focus increasingly on commercial enterprise, Thaksin Shinawatra aimed for a political career, becoming more influential and getting direct access to government funds. Most of his businesses have been based on government contracts, either selling to the government or being granted a monopoly from the government. Most of his products and services have been grossly overpriced compared even to high cost western countries, something he could do because he had monopoly. If anything, I would say that Thaksin has been a much more ruthless businessman than most of the Bangkok elite, but again; that's irrelevant. He has understood how to amass fortune and political power, and he has understood how to use it to his own benefit.

[lannathai]

If General Prem etc was such a special man, why has 99.9999% of the population be living in relative poverty whilst the .01% in BKK have been lauding it up for decades. His and all Governments lethargy in dealing with socio-economic issues of the country is what allowed the power vacuum which Thaskin stepped into being created.

Your post is complete rubbish by the way.

How can you explained the rice pledge scheme engineered by Thaksin, the smartest guy ever according to the red? If Thaksin is so so great why there were so many failed policies created by him and his clans? Thailand used to be a world class rice exporter during Mr. Prem's term but now we're dropping to No.3 in the world? This government is on the way to bankrupt the country with all these populist policies and before you know it, farmers could eventually quit growing rice because the country may not be able to sustain the competition in the world market. Thaksin regime have just destroyed the rice industry that Thai people are so proud of for decades.

I can admit Mr. Prem isn't perfect. During the last years, my mom said most people got tired of him LOL. Because he's been in power for too long. People by nature wants to see the new faces and he's such an old, boring guy. We were so poor then. Every neighboring countries were poor too. He's not the business type of guy but he did the best to prepare Thailand for the real democracy and for us to enter the free trade. Gen Prem is highly regarded military man, no one ever attempted a coup on him. He could choose to stay in power forever like the Myanmar's generals but he chose to help Thai people get their own democratically elected government.