Health warning about diets high in animal proteins

JSixpack · March 10, 2014

Anyone seriously interested in the study referenced in the OP can wade through this knowledgeable evaluation of it:

http://rawfoodsos.com/2014/03/09/new-animal-protein-study/

The comments are quite good, too. Certainly better than we'll get here.

This is also of interest for further perspective:

http://www.westonaprice.org/blogs/2010/09/22/the-curious-case-of-campbells-rats-does-protein-deficiency-prevent-cancer/

JSixpack · March 10, 2014

I am against radical diets. Low carb with lots of veggies is close to how I am eating. People eating mostly beef mayo and eggs I think are hurting themselves.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Low carb isn't a radical diet. It was THE standard, accepted diet against obesity until the mid-60s or so. And it's argued that it was the standard human diet for millenia before the cultivation of grains.

It only seems radical to those who don't know the history and have been misled by virulent attacks on it post-Food Pyramid by Food Pyramid radicals. And you see how much that's helped the general population. There are some interesting politics involved, of which you'll learn should you ever study the matter in depth.

This belief in the carbohydrate as "heart-healthy" started in the 1960s and it couldn't be reconciled with the idea that carbohydrates make us fat. After all, if dietary fat causes heart attacks, then a diet that replaces carbohydrates with more fatty foods threatens to kill us, even if it slims us down in the process. As a result, doctors and nutritionists started attacking carbohydrate-restricted diets, because they bought into an idea about heart disease that was barely even tested at the time and would fail to be confirmed once it was (as I will soon discuss). They believed it, though, because people they respected believed it, and those people believed it because, well, other people they respected believed it.

A particularly glaring example comes from The New York Times in 1965, [ironically] the same year the American Physiological Society published an eight-hundred-page Handbook of Physiology dedicated to the science of fat metabolism, a subject I addressed in the previous chapter, and concluding, effectively, that "carbohydrate is driving insulin is driving fat."

The Times article, "New Diet Decried by Nutritionists: Dangers Are Seen in Low Carbohydrate Intake," quoted Harvard's Jean Mayer as claiming that to prescribe carbohydrate-restricted diets to the public was "the equivalent of mass murder."

--Gary Taubes, Why We Get Fat

Edited March 10, 2014 by JSixpack

Jingthing · March 10, 2014

You distort what I have said and I don't appreciate that.

No carb is radical. Like fad diets of ONLY eating meat, eggs, cheese, and mayo and nothing else!

Extreme low carb (like no vegetables) is radical.

Otherwise a reasonable low carb eating plan is NOT radical.

That's what I do for the most part.

I know I eat more carbs than purists would.

For example I am not afraid of pasta in very SMALL portions (where the vegetable portion is much greater than the pasta portion).

Cheers.

Edited March 10, 2014 by Jingthing

sms747 · March 10, 2014

I have not eaten any animal protein since 1972- but feel like shit most of the time. I think people should eat what they enjoy and ignore these scare stories, there will be another along in a couple of weeks claiming raw steak is good for you

h90 · March 10, 2014

I am against radical diets. Low carb with lots of veggies is close to how I am eating. People eating mostly beef mayo and eggs I think are hurting themselves.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Low carb isn't a radical diet. It was THE standard, accepted diet against obesity until the mid-60s or so. And it's argued that it was the standard human diet for millenia before the cultivation of grains.

It only seems radical to those who don't know the history and have been misled by virulent attacks on it post-Food Pyramid by Food Pyramid radicals. And you see how much that's helped the general population. There are some interesting politics involved, of which you'll learn should you ever study the matter in depth.

This belief in the carbohydrate as "heart-healthy" started in the 1960s and it couldn't be reconciled with the idea that carbohydrates make us fat. After all, if dietary fat causes heart attacks, then a diet that replaces carbohydrates with more fatty foods threatens to kill us, even if it slims us down in the process. As a result, doctors and nutritionists started attacking carbohydrate-restricted diets, because they bought into an idea about heart disease that was barely even tested at the time and would fail to be confirmed once it was (as I will soon discuss). They believed it, though, because people they respected believed it, and those people believed it because, well, other people they respected believed it.

A particularly glaring example comes from The New York Times in 1965, [ironically] the same year the American Physiological Society published an eight-hundred-page Handbook of Physiology dedicated to the science of fat metabolism, a subject I addressed in the previous chapter, and concluding, effectively, that "carbohydrate is driving insulin is driving fat."

The Times article, "New Diet Decried by Nutritionists: Dangers Are Seen in Low Carbohydrate Intake," quoted Harvard's Jean Mayer as claiming that to prescribe carbohydrate-restricted diets to the public was "the equivalent of mass murder."

--Gary Taubes, Why We Get Fat

Well one real problem with low carb diet is:

If half the western world starts to eat low carb and high animal protein, than there is simply not enough for food on the planet (considering 90 % of the food is lost when feeding a pig and than eating the pig).

That might be a reason why no government like to see that.

Kitsune · May 16, 2014

Mother human milk contains 6% protein.

Mother milk is what should be given to any new born to help and promote the fastest growth period of life.

So outside this period the optimum protein intake should be lower.

4% is my protein intake.

h90 · May 16, 2014

I eat a balanced diet also and choose something from the four major food groups, hamburgers, french fries, coffee and doughnuts.

I eat a lot vegetables and fruits: french fries with ketchup

h90 · May 16, 2014

Mother human milk contains 6% protein.

Mother milk is what should be given to any new born to help and promote the fastest growth period of life.

So outside this period the optimum protein intake should be lower.

4% is my protein intake.

I eat 2-3 gram (almost only animal, as I eat only a small musli in the breakfast and and no other plant products with protein (tomatoes, curcumber, onion, garlic, chilli) Protein / kg bodyweight....

That feels for me approx. right.....If I eat more I feel somehow cloaked....if I eat less I feel I can't recover when I exercise.

Kitsune · May 16, 2014

Mother human milk contains 6% protein.

Mother milk is what should be given to any new born to help and promote the fastest growth period of life.

So outside this period the optimum protein intake should be lower.

4% is my protein intake.

I eat 2-3 gram (almost only animal, as I eat only a small musli in the breakfast and and no other plant products with protein (tomatoes, curcumber, onion, garlic, chilli) Protein / kg bodyweight....

That feels for me approx. right.....If I eat more I feel somehow cloaked....if I eat less I feel I can't recover when I exercise.

4% is exactly the minimum level of protein of most veggies :

spinach 4,

mushrooms 4,

carrots (3%)

kale 6%,

romaine 7%

broccoli11%

beef short lojn 8%

So no need to eat dead carcasses to get proteins!

h90 · May 16, 2014

Mother human milk contains 6% protein.

Mother milk is what should be given to any new born to help and promote the fastest growth period of life.

So outside this period the optimum protein intake should be lower.

4% is my protein intake.

I eat 2-3 gram (almost only animal, as I eat only a small musli in the breakfast and and no other plant products with protein (tomatoes, curcumber, onion, garlic, chilli) Protein / kg bodyweight....

That feels for me approx. right.....If I eat more I feel somehow cloaked....if I eat less I feel I can't recover when I exercise.

4% is exactly the minimum level of protein of most veggies :

spinach 4,

mushrooms 4,

carrots (3%)

kale 6%,

romaine 7%

broccoli11%

beef short lojn 8%

So no need to eat dead carcasses to get proteins!

So you eat only veggies? Something else? dark bread? eggs? Fish? Musli?

You feel good with it, I assume?

I did something very different, ate almost only meat and eggs. Lost a lot weight and felt good.

As every diet bounce a bit back, I thought of hard training and let it bounce back, but with some muscle instead of fat. While it somehow worked I am felling not too good.

On diet -1 hour sleep and feeling very active

Now +1 (or 2) hour sleep and feeling tired

ChrisB87 · May 16, 2014

I just find it so hard eating vegetarian in Thailand.

Kitsune · May 16, 2014

Mother human milk contains 6% protein.

Mother milk is what should be given to any new born to help and promote the fastest growth period of life.

So outside this period the optimum protein intake should be lower.

4% is my protein intake.

I eat 2-3 gram (almost only animal, as I eat only a small musli in the breakfast and and no other plant products with protein (tomatoes, curcumber, onion, garlic, chilli) Protein / kg bodyweight....

That feels for me approx. right.....If I eat more I feel somehow cloaked....if I eat less I feel I can't recover when I exercise.

4% is exactly the minimum level of protein of most veggies :

spinach 4,

mushrooms 4,

carrots (3%)

kale 6%,

romaine 7%

broccoli11%

beef short lojn 8%

So no need to eat dead carcasses to get proteins!

So you eat only veggies? Something else? dark bread? eggs? Fish? Musli?

You feel good with it, I assume?

I did something very different, ate almost only meat and eggs. Lost a lot weight and felt good.

As every diet bounce a bit back, I thought of hard training and let it bounce back, but with some muscle instead of fat. While it somehow worked I am felling not too good.

On diet -1 hour sleep and feeling very active

Now +1 (or 2) hour sleep and feeling tired

For me it's a necessity, I have arthritis

If I eat processed/animal food the pain is back in 3 to5 days

So yes I feel better, aside from the weight loss,which is a bonus.

it's called "whole food plant base diet" (WFPBD or human diet), it's from Dr Esselstyn and T Campbell. It's what made Bill Clinton escape 3rd heart surgery, probably saved his life and made him lost so much weight

I eat

- legumes/starches : lentils, peas,quinoa, brown rice, brown noodles, quinoa, etc

- vegetables; cruciferous superveg ( broccoli, cabbages, bokchoi, kale, cauli etc) red and purple ones (eggplants, beetroots..)

-loads of fruits

I believe we have been eating the wrong food, hence all the diseases (Heart diseases, diabetes, cancers, arthritis ...)

I eat only whole food, nothing processed, no oil, no sugar, trying to cut down on salt

Edited May 16, 2014 by Kitsune

JSixpack · May 17, 2014

If I eat processed/animal food the pain is back in 3 to5 days

Just psychosomatic. Not so many have that issue; see a shrink.

I believe we have been eating the wrong food, hence all the diseases (Heart diseases, diabetes, cancers, arthritis ...)

I eat only whole food, nothing processed, no oil, no sugar, trying to cut down on salt

Anybody who has the least interest in nutrition knows the standard diet ain't workin'. Read Death By Food Pyramid. By a converted vegan, BTW.

However, ascribing mystical powers to certain foods won't be helpful. Just heard of a friend of a friend who did such, entirely confident of herself, who's now dying of colon cancer at a relatively young age. Now she says her mistake was "keeping too much anger bottled up inside."

Sheryl · May 17, 2014

OP please do not post links to mass media reports of studies, they are invariably misleading. If you want to pursue the issue get the actual study, read that and link it if you like.

You will almost always find the actual study findings to be more nuanced and tentative than what gets into mass media, even the better ones.

One obvious question that comes to find is whether they controlled for the confounding effects of obesity and dyslipidemias (both of which can result from a very intake of animal proteins) and if so, how as it would not be easily done - not that many thin people with good lipid profiles around who consume large amounts of meat. Another is how they separated out the effects of protein per se from consumption of animal protein given that this is the main protein source in many American diets. And how they ruled out possible protective effects from high consumption of fresh fruits and vegetables (people obviously eat something...if they are eating less animal protein then they are eating more of something else).

And lastly whether the study actually claimed to have established any sort of causation or just a correllation calling for further research. Often it is the latter, but mass media summaries tend to lose that bit when reporting.

Kitsune · August 18, 2014

I have an auto immune disease that requires a diet to keep my immune system strong.

I was a vegetarian and got forced to give up dairy and and processed food because it would makes me very sick.

The healthiest is plant based non processed food, basically anything you could find in a garden.

The rest is toxic for human consumption.

h90 · August 18, 2014

I have an auto immune disease that requires a diet to keep my immune system strong.

I was a vegetarian and got forced to give up dairy and and processed food because it would makes me very sick.

The healthiest is plant based non processed food, basically anything you could find in a garden.

The rest is toxic for human consumption.

For someone who is sick and for someone who is healthy things are different.

Also for someone who works in the office and is overweight a fat pizza is bad. For the lumberjack in Novosibirsk it is very healthy food, he would die on vegetables within a few weeks.

Also between processed and "processed" is a difference.

Some convince food full of MSG, cheap fat, trans fat, and lots of sugar OR processed food: yoghurt from fat free milk non pasteurized without adding something. Or apple juice not from concentrate 100 % apple. Also processed food.

So be a bit balanced, neither the yoghurt nor the apple juice is toxin. The cheapo-junk food is unhealthy but people don't die immediately from it so it is not toxic.

robertthebruce · August 18, 2014

I just find it so hard eating vegetarian in Thailand.

I hear what you are saying but it is possible, most places in Thailand I have been to I have managed to track down a Vegetarian restaurant, Bangkok is good, as there is quite a few, but you have to watch as a lot of Thai food is heavily salted or with loads of sugar, even there drinks if it's not sugar it's syrup....

So it is possible, just have to search them out....

I used to live,in France,and that was a 100 times worse, near on impossible there....

h90 · August 19, 2014

I just find it so hard eating vegetarian in Thailand.

I hear what you are saying but it is possible, most places in Thailand I have been to I have managed to track down a Vegetarian restaurant, Bangkok is good, as there is quite a few, but you have to watch as a lot of Thai food is heavily salted or with loads of sugar, even there drinks if it's not sugar it's syrup....

So it is possible, just have to search them out....

I used to live,in France,and that was a 100 times worse, near on impossible there....

And these who don't have sugar have lots of MSG in it (no matter if vegetarian or not).

Kitsune · August 19, 2014

I have an auto immune disease that requires a diet to keep my immune system strong.

I was a vegetarian and got forced to give up dairy and and processed food because it would makes me very sick.

The healthiest is plant based non processed food, basically anything you could find in a garden.

The rest is toxic for human consumption.

For someone who is sick and for someone who is healthy things are different.

Also for someone who works in the office and is overweight a fat pizza is bad. For the lumberjack in Novosibirsk it is very healthy food, he would die on vegetables within a few weeks.

Also between processed and "processed" is a difference.

Some convince food full of MSG, cheap fat, trans fat, and lots of sugar OR processed food: yoghurt from fat free milk non pasteurized without adding something. Or apple juice not from concentrate 100 % apple. Also processed food.

So be a bit balanced, neither the yoghurt nor the apple juice is toxin. The cheapo-junk food is unhealthy but people don't die immediately from it so it is not toxic.

Food is the number one killer in the World.

The lumberjack will clog his arteries, just as most of the 20 years old kids autopsied after being killed in Afghanistan are diagnosed with heart disease.

Yogurt is milk, milk is responsible for 40% of cancers namely, prostate cancer, breast cancer, and osteoporosis, and many auto immune diseases.

Apple juice is cooked to have a longer shell life, what you drink tastes nice but has not enzymes or vitamins left, so no point.

Toxin is noun, TOXIC is the adjective. No apple juice is not toxiC it's just pointless and rendered expensive since it lost its nutrients.

It's not because you don't die instantly that it's not toxic; If you put your head behind a car exhaust for an hour every day, you won't die either!

h90 · August 19, 2014

I have an auto immune disease that requires a diet to keep my immune system strong.

I was a vegetarian and got forced to give up dairy and and processed food because it would makes me very sick.

The healthiest is plant based non processed food, basically anything you could find in a garden.

The rest is toxic for human consumption.

For someone who is sick and for someone who is healthy things are different.

Also for someone who works in the office and is overweight a fat pizza is bad. For the lumberjack in Novosibirsk it is very healthy food, he would die on vegetables within a few weeks.

Also between processed and "processed" is a difference.

Some convince food full of MSG, cheap fat, trans fat, and lots of sugar OR processed food: yoghurt from fat free milk non pasteurized without adding something. Or apple juice not from concentrate 100 % apple. Also processed food.

So be a bit balanced, neither the yoghurt nor the apple juice is toxin. The cheapo-junk food is unhealthy but people don't die immediately from it so it is not toxic.

Food is the number one killer in the World.

The lumberjack will clog his arteries, just as most of the 20 years old kids autopsied after being killed in Afghanistan are diagnosed with heart disease.

Yogurt is milk, milk is responsible for 40% of cancers namely, prostate cancer, breast cancer, and osteoporosis, and many auto immune diseases.

Apple juice is cooked to have a longer shell life, what you drink tastes nice but has not enzymes or vitamins left, so no point.

Toxin is noun, TOXIC is the adjective. No apple juice is not toxiC it's just pointless and rendered expensive since it lost its nutrients.

It's not because you don't die instantly that it's not toxic; If you put your head behind a car exhaust for an hour every day, you won't die either!

Maybe the lumberjack will clog his arteries when he is 70. But without food full of carbs and fat he'll starve to death in 2 weeks. 6000 calories aren't eaten easily with vegetables in a short time.

Milk: OK we can agree that we disagree on that.

Apple juice is usually not cooked, it is pasteurized. Some Vitamins get reduced in amounts. Vitamin C will be replaced afterwards (in orange juice, I guess it is the same in apple juice). Yes the enzymes are deactivated, but you anyway wouldn't absorb them in active state.

Sure a self made fresh apple juice from fresh apples would be the best. But that is impossible for most people in Thailand. So apple juice is the second best option.

Kitsune · August 19, 2014

- If I talked about these kids soldiers in Afghanistan it's because they have a regular training comparable to a lumberjack, but their arteries are full of Mac Donald junk food that makes them sick.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/25/us-military-heart-idUSBRE8BO07G20121225

And because of this the USA is having the first generation of people who will die before their parents. You have now 12 years old kids with diabetes,they certainly won't live up to 70, nor will any lumberjack subsisting on Pizza Hut.

A hundred years ago heart disease did not even exist

50% of american will have diabetes by 2030

70% now overweight or obese

Carbs: You obviously have no idea what you are talking about, since carbs are 80% of a vegan diet. And yes athletes/lumberjacks/firefighters perform better on vegan diet.

Here is a firefighter and it's brigade on vegan diet

- Milk

Our work showed that casein is the most relevant cancer promoter ever discovered. Dr T Colin Campbell Biochemist

KF: What exactly is so bad about animal protein?

TCC: I don't choose the word "exactly" because it suggests something very specific. Rather, casein causes a broad spectrum of adverse effects.

Among other fundamental effects, it makes the body more acidic, alters the mix of hormones and modifies important enzyme activities, each of which can cause a broad array of more specific effects. One of these effects is its ability to promote cancer growth (by operating on key enzyme systems, by increasing hormone growth factors and by modifying the tissue acidity). Another is its ability to increase blood cholesterol (by modifying enzyme activities) and to enhance atherogenesis, which is the early stage of cardiovascular disease.

And finally, although these are casein-specific effects, it should be noted that other animal-based proteins are likely to have the same effect as casein.

TCC = Dr T Colin Campbell Biochemist

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._Colin_Campbell

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kathy-freston/a-cure-for-cancer-eating_b_298282.html

- 3000 B is the price of a juicer that would give you fresh apple juice galore and health for the rest of your life.

Although I can think of dozens much cheaper more nutrients-packed Thai fruits to put in your juicer.

- Ultra-high temperature processing (UHT), ultra-heat treatment, or ultra-pasteurization sterilizes food by heating it above 135°C (275°F), the temperature required to kill spores in milk, for 1 to 2 seconds.^[1] UHT is most commonly used in milk production, but the process is also used for fruit juices, cream, soy milk, yogurt, wine, soups, honey, and stews

“Nearly every canned or bottled commercial juice, on the other hand, are actually worse than soda, because a glass of juice is loaded with fructose, and a lot of the antioxidants are lost,” writes Dr Mercola.

http://www.jessainscough.com/2011/08/why-bottled-juice-does-not-contribute-to-your-daily-fruit-and-veg-intake/

Edited August 19, 2014 by Kitsune

Ragz · August 20, 2014

Looks like Denise Minger the author of 'Death by Food Pyramid' finally concedes that low fat, low protein plant-based diets get proven health results. As much as I disagree with her advocacy of high protein/high fat diets, I gotta give it to her for being brave enough to admit it.

No one can know 100% for sure which is the best way, but I am throwing my lot in with high carb, low fat plant based nutrition. I have done all low carb permutations over the years and have lost weight on many of them, however now that I am getting older I am more concerned about avoiding heart disease than quickly dropping pounds. And none of these low carb 'sciencey writers' have convinced me that the lipid hypothesis is untrue.

h90 · August 20, 2014

I am not speaking about McDonalds Food.

With Pizza I meant, but didn't write it, a real pizza not some food from a junk food chain. It never came in my mind that someone may buy something at Pizza Hut....my fault.

(so way less fat. Olive oil, sausage without chemicals....).

Pasteurization is at 72 degree Celsius....other methods are hotter but just for a very short time.

lumberjack is not firefighter. I used this extreme example because you need lots of fat in this cold environment and up in the north it is for some not possible to eat enough calories....And I thing with a vegan diet you simply can't get enough food.

JSixpack · August 20, 2014

Carbs: You obviously have no idea what you are talking about, since carbs are 80% of a vegan diet. And yes athletes/lumberjacks/firefighters perform better on vegan diet.

Depends on which vegan diet as opposed to which other particular diet. Meaningless statement that reflects the usual religious fervor and bias.

And is it true? that

Vegans at increased risk of developing blood clots and atherosclerosis

Published on April 7, 2011 at 2:38 AM

People who follow a vegan lifestyle - strict vegetarians who try to eat no meat or animal products of any kind - may increase their risk of developing blood clots and atherosclerosis or "hardening of the arteries," which are conditions that can lead to heart attacks and stroke. That's the conclusion of a review of dozens of articles published on the biochemistry of vegetarianism during the past 30 years. The article appears in ACS' bi-weekly Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry.

--http://www.news-medical.net/news/20110407/Vegans-at-increased-risk-of-developing-blood-clots-and-atherosclerosis.aspx

and

Q: Do vegetarians live longer?

A: No. The all-cause annual death rate of vegetarian men is slightly more than that of non-vegetarian men (.93% vs .89%); the annual death rate of vegetarian women is significantly more than that of non-vegetarian women (.86% vs .54%) (Am J Clin Nutr 1982 36:873)

Q: Will a vegetarian diet protect you against atherosclerosis?

A: No. The International Atherosclerosis Project found that vegetarians had just as much atherosclerosis as meat eaters. (Lab Invest 1968 18:498)

--http://dietheartpublishing.com/faq

Some carbs are better than others. Better read http://www.amazon.com/Good-Calories-Bad-Controversial-Science/dp/1400033462/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1408518735&sr=8-1&keywords=good+calories+bad+calories+by+gary+taubes

Looks like Denise Minger the author of 'Death by Food Pyramid' finally concedes that low fat, low protein plant-based diets get proven health results. As much as I disagree with her advocacy of high protein/high fat diets, I gotta give it to her for being brave enough to admit it.

Straw man, as she denied no such thing. It all depends on what exactly you're comparing it to. The canonical Food Pyramid is much more than just low fat, low protein.

h90 · August 20, 2014

Carbs: You obviously have no idea what you are talking about, since carbs are 80% of a vegan diet. And yes athletes/lumberjacks/firefighters perform better on vegan diet.

Depends on which vegan diet as opposed to which other particular diet. Meaningless statement that reflects the usual religious fervor and bias.

And is it true? that

Vegans at increased risk of developing blood clots and atherosclerosis

Published on April 7, 2011 at 2:38 AM

People who follow a vegan lifestyle - strict vegetarians who try to eat no meat or animal products of any kind - may increase their risk of developing blood clots and atherosclerosis or "hardening of the arteries," which are conditions that can lead to heart attacks and stroke. That's the conclusion of a review of dozens of articles published on the biochemistry of vegetarianism during the past 30 years. The article appears in ACS' bi-weekly Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry.

--http://www.news-medical.net/news/20110407/Vegans-at-increased-risk-of-developing-blood-clots-and-atherosclerosis.aspx

and

Q: Do vegetarians live longer?

A: No. The all-cause annual death rate of vegetarian men is slightly more than that of non-vegetarian men (.93% vs .89%); the annual death rate of vegetarian women is significantly more than that of non-vegetarian women (.86% vs .54%) (Am J Clin Nutr 1982 36:873)

Q: Will a vegetarian diet protect you against atherosclerosis?

A: No. The International Atherosclerosis Project found that vegetarians had just as much atherosclerosis as meat eaters. (Lab Invest 1968 18:498)

--http://dietheartpublishing.com/faq

Some carbs are better than others. Better read http://www.amazon.com/Good-Calories-Bad-Controversial-Science/dp/1400033462/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1408518735&sr=8-1&keywords=good+calories+bad+calories+by+gary+taubes

Looks like Denise Minger the author of 'Death by Food Pyramid' finally concedes that low fat, low protein plant-based diets get proven health results. As much as I disagree with her advocacy of high protein/high fat diets, I gotta give it to her for being brave enough to admit it.

Straw man, as she denied no such thing. It all depends on what exactly you're comparing it to. The canonical Food Pyramid is much more than just low fat, low protein.

"Q: Do vegetarians live longer?"

But hanging around hungry with vegetables and without power the time feels much longer.....

Kitsune · August 20, 2014

I am not speaking about McDonalds Food.

With Pizza I meant, but didn't write it, a real pizza not some food from a junk food chain. It never came in my mind that someone may buy something at Pizza Hut....my fault.

(so way less fat. Olive oil, sausage without chemicals....).

Pasteurization is at 72 degree Celsius....other methods are hotter but just for a very short time.

lumberjack is not firefighter. I used this extreme example because you need lots of fat in this cold environment and up in the north it is for some not possible to eat enough calories....And I thing with a vegan diet you simply can't get enough food.

Pizza : - Dough is refined flour, that goes directly into your blood and damage your arteries/your immune system.

- Cheese is fatty milk (damage arteries, acidify body, promote tumors, slow blood flows, promotes osteoporosis....)

- Oven baking is destroying all the goodness of the tomatoes /peppers/basil

Juices: Do people really check the temperature and are aware they are buying nutrient deprived beverage? Plus most juices are loaded with fructose

Lumberjacks; Yes 5000/6000 calories per day is easily reached,for example Frelee the bananas girl did it :She started her morning with a 20-banana smoothie for breakfast, 10 for lunch, and another 20 for dinner, which totals up to about 5,000 calories.

Add some (10-20) dates (66 calories per date) and you get 6000 easy.

http://www.medicaldaily.com/freelee-banana-girl-eats-51-bananas-day-high-calorie-raw-vegan-diet-it-safe-276486

here is a site where you can check all the calories for each item https://cronometer.com/

h90 · August 21, 2014

I am not speaking about McDonalds Food.

With Pizza I meant, but didn't write it, a real pizza not some food from a junk food chain. It never came in my mind that someone may buy something at Pizza Hut....my fault.

(so way less fat. Olive oil, sausage without chemicals....).

Pasteurization is at 72 degree Celsius....other methods are hotter but just for a very short time.

lumberjack is not firefighter. I used this extreme example because you need lots of fat in this cold environment and up in the north it is for some not possible to eat enough calories....And I thing with a vegan diet you simply can't get enough food.

Pizza : - Dough is refined flour, that goes directly into your blood and damage your arteries/your immune system.

- Cheese is fatty milk (damage arteries, acidify body, promote tumors, slow blood flows, promotes osteoporosis....)

- Oven baking is destroying all the goodness of the tomatoes /peppers/basil

Juices: Do people really check the temperature and are aware they are buying nutrient deprived beverage? Plus most juices are loaded with fructose

Lumberjacks; Yes 5000/6000 calories per day is easily reached,for example Frelee the bananas girl did it :She started her morning with a 20-banana smoothie for breakfast, 10 for lunch, and another 20 for dinner, which totals up to about 5,000 calories.

Add some (10-20) dates (66 calories per date) and you get 6000 easy.

http://www.medicaldaily.com/freelee-banana-girl-eats-51-bananas-day-high-calorie-raw-vegan-diet-it-safe-276486

here is a site where you can check all the calories for each item https://cronometer.com/

OK: the banana girl impresses me.....I wouldn't have thought that this is possible....

Yes of course fresh pressed would be the best thing. But pasteurized fruit juice is still better than no fruits.

Fructose: Just yesterday we bought by mistake a 100 % fruit juice that had sugar added. Apple juice 85 % + 15 % grape juice. The purpose of the grape juice concentrate is just to add sugar without declaring it.

Pizza: yes dough is normally refined flour (I would use the dark flour) but sometimes it doesn't kill you.

Cheese: right it is fatty healthy milk

Oven baking also increases the value of many things....starch, meat, etc.....

When I make a Pizza, I use whole wheat. Only small amounts of olive oil. Good quality cheese and only good quality sausage (which is hard to find in Bangkok).

Not too much fat, good protein, whole wheat.....

Kitsune · August 21, 2014

Pizza: yes dough is normally refined flour (I would use the dark flour) but sometimes it doesn't kill you.

Cheese: right it is fatty healthy milk

Oven baking also increases the value of many things....starch, meat, etc.....

When I make a Pizza, I use whole wheat. Only small amounts of olive oil. Good quality cheese and only good quality sausage (which is hard to find in Bangkok).

Not too much fat, good protein, whole wheat.....

This is what a raw pizza looks like