Missing Malaysia Airlines jet carrying 239 triggers Southeast Asia search

[retell]

But correct me if im wrong , someone posted long time ago that if in water landing the engines and wheel assembly would come off , would be a perfect place to put some pingers also

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[P45Mustang]

still no debris though to go with the pings

Yes.

I don't know what aviation experts say about whether a plane can be flown into the ocean without leaving a trace.

Not being an expert, it seems the best way would be to go in vertical.

But I'm not a pilot.

Hi,

I think with skill and lots of luck involved you could ditch fairly much intact, but some panels would no doubt come off during water contact. If so then why no attempt at getting out prior to sinking if passengers and crew still alive.

I appreciate ditching intact and letting it sink could be an approach.

Obviously ditching intact is the best approach if you want to preserve life.

Just thought that if you really wanted to sink it without any trace you'd go in vertical?

Ditching in the Ocean to preserve life doesn't seem to be what was going on in this case though.

[NeverSure]

I strongly believe that if the plane hit vertically or nearly vertically, it would shatter into bits. Water is hard in that sense. There is no way to nose dive in other than at a very high speed.

Every pilot learns that you control speed with nose attitude (pitch). You control altitude with power. That is of course in normal flight. But if you pitch he nose straight down you will gain speed, and a lot of it even with the engine power clear off.

To dive straight in, you'd need to pull the power clear back and even then you'd gain so much speed you'd risk tearing the wings off. Regardless, when the plane hit the water it would shatter to bits.

There are many things in that plane that would float indefinitely. Every seat cushion is a life preserver. There will be things in the luggage that will float. There should be cargo items that float.

[P45Mustang]

I strongly believe that if the plane hit vertically or nearly vertically, it would shatter into bits. Water is hard in that sense. There is no way to nose dive in other than at a very high speed.

Every pilot learns that you control speed with nose attitude (pitch). You control altitude with power. That is of course in normal flight. But if you pitch he nose straight down you will gain speed, and a lot of it even with the engine power clear off.

To dive straight in, you'd need to pull the power clear back and even then you'd gain so much speed you'd risk tearing the wings off. Regardless, when the plane hit the water it would shatter to bits.

There are many things in that plane that would float indefinitely. Every seat cushion is a life preserver. There will be things in the luggage that will float. There should be cargo items that float.

Yep. I hear you. Intact or relatively intact plane allowed to sink would I suppose be the best way of concealement.

Chicog's point about 31 days for debris to disperse is relevant I guess.

IF Ocean Shield is close to the box, presumably debris search is taking place in the vicinity.

Dynamics of debris dispersal may be complex.

[Chicog]

Still hiding imaginary F16's I see.

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[Chicog]

http://www.bernama.com/bernama/v7/ge/newsgeneral.php?id=1028700

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[P45Mustang]

http://www.bernama.com/bernama/v7/ge/newsgeneral.php?id=1028700

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Thanks for that.

[Chicog]

They're out to silence you David.

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[Carib]

Hope they succeed

[3NUMBAS]

A final unexplained signal emitted by the missing Malaysia Airlines plane was tracked to the same point in the Indian Ocean at which authorities believe they have found the aircraft, it can be revelaed.

It is thought that this final "half-handshake" – or satellite contact – could have been the moment at which the plane ran out of fuel and plunged into the Indian Ocean.

As authorities said they were "very close" to finding the plane after detecting more than two hours of underwater signals, The Telegraph learnt that the site coincides with analysis from two weeks ago, which estimated where the final contact occurred.

The breakthrough in the search has assisted analysts to gain a picture of the likely final sequence for the aircraft, which is believed to have run out of fuel and then experienced a last jolt of power that triggered an incomplete satellite handshake before entering the water.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/malaysia/10750765/MH370-missing-plane-black-box-pings-tracked-to-same-point-as-final-half-handshake.html

Likening the sequence to a car spluttering as it runs out of fuel, Mr McLaughlin told The Telegraph: "The partial handshake would be the plane running out of fuel and faltering for a moment, so the system went off network and then briefly powered up and had communication with the network. The plane looked for a final communication before it went off – and that was it."

According to Stephen Buzdygan, a former British Airways pilot who flew Boeing 777s, the plane would then have glided into the water and may have rolled onto its back because its engines would have shut down asymmetrically.

"Without fuel, assuming the crew were unconscious and no one was flying the plane, it would glide," he told The Daily Telegraph. "Engines have separate fuel supply, so the chances are it won't go in with the wings level. With no autopilot correction, it would slowly turn on its back and go down at an angle and the wings will be ripped off."

Edited April 7, 2014 by 3NUMBAS

[GentlemanJim]

David

Welcome back. Regarding your post no 3480 above. So how come you managed to type F104's every time but the zero just got stuck when you typed F16...on several posts? No need to apologise for your sticky key, how about you apologise for calling a couple of us liars and questioning our professional knowledge? Why not just say oops, sorry I was mistaken, rather than the 'sticky zero key (only after I type the letter F)' excuse? You would get far more cred points.

Careful about the computer attacks, you may also hear the whisper of black helicopters outside soon as well. Take it easy.

Edited April 7, 2014 by GentlemanJim

[NeverSure]

I strongly believe that if the plane hit vertically or nearly vertically, it would shatter into bits. Water is hard in that sense. There is no way to nose dive in other than at a very high speed.

Every pilot learns that you control speed with nose attitude (pitch). You control altitude with power. That is of course in normal flight. But if you pitch he nose straight down you will gain speed, and a lot of it even with the engine power clear off.

To dive straight in, you'd need to pull the power clear back and even then you'd gain so much speed you'd risk tearing the wings off. Regardless, when the plane hit the water it would shatter to bits.

There are many things in that plane that would float indefinitely. Every seat cushion is a life preserver. There will be things in the luggage that will float. There should be cargo items that float.

Yep. I hear you. Intact or relatively intact plane allowed to sink would I suppose be the best way of concealement.

Chicog's point about 31 days for debris to disperse is relevant I guess.

IF Ocean Shield is close to the box, presumably debris search is taking place in the vicinity.

Dynamics of debris dispersal may be complex.

You make good points.

My questions about suicide are why did someone turn off the signaling devices including the transponder? Why didn't he just stick it in?

The flying for thousands of miles with the pilots unconcious due to mechanical (pressurization) issues doesn't explain turning off those signalling devices. That sounds deliberate. Did someone do that and then fly the plane to above 40,000 feet to kill everyone including the pilots and then just let the autopilot fly it until it ran out of fuel?

If the plane ran out of fuel at altitude with no one at the controls, one engine would quit first as they have separate fuel tanks. That would preclude a smooth water landing. The plane would roll, probably enter a spin and go down fast.

Only questions. No answers.

I hope for the sake of family and friends they find this thing.

[hawker9000]

Well one of the search ships is right and one is wrong if you think they have located the ping but then again Who knows This is the best mystery news story I have seen in my 60

years on this earth.

...and if one is "wrong", then couldn't BOTH be wrong?

And regarding the question about the ping listeners interfering with each other... I'm pretty sure everyone's using passive sensors at this point. They don't generate pings (or any other noise) themselves, they just listen (and maybe record or relay via towed cable or RF if a sonobuoy). There's not going to be any mutual acoustic interference. Once they think they've found it and are in close proximity to it, maybe they'd use active pinging to actually locate the airframe on the bottom.

Doesn't it kind of shake one's confidence in the satellite outfit's credibility that it's moving its estimates to more closely coincide with these latest ping areas?

[Carmine6]

Well one of the search ships is right and one is wrong if you think they have located the ping but then again Who knows This is the best mystery news story I have seen in my 60

years on this earth.

...and if one is "wrong", then couldn't BOTH be wrong?

And regarding the question about the ping listeners interfering with each other... I'm pretty sure everyone's using passive sensors at this point. They don't generate pings (or any other noise) themselves, they just listen (and maybe record or relay via towed cable or RF if a sonobuoy). There's not going to be any mutual acoustic interference. Once they think they've found it and are in close proximity to it, maybe they'd use active pinging to actually locate the airframe on the bottom.

Doesn't it kind of shake one's confidence in the satellite outfit's credibility that it's moving its estimates to more closely coincide with these latest ping areas?

Not sure it is the satellite folks who have credibility issues. All they can say is certain distance from the satellite at a certain time, and maybe certain speed relative to the satellite. The guess about how far the plane goes after those points in time is someone else's calculation.

The partial ping was reported weeks ago and completely disappeared from coverage even though that would seem to be another point in time to focus on. Not sure why this area wasn't focused on sooner, though maybe the ship has been roaming this particular area for a while. Certainly seems like the search has been everywhere else, including 1,000 km to the southwest originally.

I do think it is getting way too coincidental that there are two reported sites, 600 km distant, with two reported signals each, in the waning days of the batteries. Both areas are said to be due to new calculations on where the plane might be, so even more coincidental that both sites had results.

The Australian ship is using much better equipment and had longer signals, so seems way more promising. It still is so crazy that there are dueling sites as the batteries are about to go out. I hope they find it, so some loose ends start getting tied up.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies deleted.

[webfact]

Underwater vessel set to search for missing plane

PERTH, Australia - The hunt for missing Malaysian Flight MH370 could soon head to the ocean floor using an autonomous sonar vessel after possible black box signals were detected, the head of the Australian-led search operation said Tuesday.

A month to the day since the Boeing 777 disappeared, retired Air Chief Marshal Angus Houston warned that hopes of finding surface debris were fading and that sonic "pings" detected by the Australian naval ship Ocean Shield were the best lead.

Houston told ABC radio Tuesday that once the position of the signals was pinpointed, autonomous underwater vessel Bluefin-21 would be deployed to the ocean floor to search for wreckage.

And this could happen soon.

"I haven’t had the discussion this morning, we’ll be having that discussion a little later on," he told ABC radio.

"I imagine we’d be getting very close to that point."

The search is now focusing on a 600-kilometre (370-mile) arc of the southern Indian Ocean, far off the West Australian coast.

AFP

-- The Nation 2014-04-08

[ExpatOilWorker]

The equipment being used on Haixun 01 which detected the first two pings last Saturday is designed for local searches for divers in shallow, sheltered waters, such as harbours, hardly the tool for the job in the very deep waters of the southern Indian Ocean. The Benthos Diver Pinger listening device that they were using is designed to identify sounds at depths of less than 1,000 feet, while the ocean bottom in parts of the search area exceeds 14,000 feet. It was also reported that the Chinese did not make any recording of what they heard explained possibly by the fact that recording is not a capability of the Benthos Diver Pinger.

Meanwhile, 300 nautical miles away the Australian Navy ship HMAS Ocean Shield equipped with a Towed Locator supplied by the US Navy looks to be conducting far more promising searches. Yesterday, those leading the Australian-led search effort announced that a detected sonar signal continued for two hours and 20 minutes with a second lasting for 13 minutes. On the second occasion two distinct ping returns were audible, something which was deemed to be the most promising lead yet.

Detection with the Towed Pinger Locator (TLP) is a completely different matter to that with the hand-held device. The TLP is a purpose-built detector, which is towed deep underwater to provide maximum detection range of any pinger signals, says Winter.

Even so, detecting the signal from the data recorder pinger will be highly difficult, even if HMAS Ocean Shield gets close to it.

The ocean is a very noisy place, he says, and there are many noise sources that can be mistaken for the pinger. Steady contact with proper equipment over a significant period of time is the only way to detect it.

The search effort will need to fix on a precise location before sending an underwater vehicle to investigate the finding, in an area of ocean whose depths are at the absolute limit of the unmanned underwater vehicle aboard Ocean Shield.

Also, a phenomenon in the ocean, known as the thermocline, which acts as a horizontal acoustic mirror below the surface makes it difficult for sound to propagate from the deep ocean up through this layer. That means that to detect pings from deep objects, you need to get below this layer, as the TPL is designed to do, says Winter.

There is cause for some optimism in the fact that search chief Air Chief Marshal Houston said there may have been the possibility that on the second run HMAS Ocean Shield detected two signals one from each of the recorders. A slight variation in frequency between the two sonar signals could be because the pingers of the two recorders arent precisely the same age and their acoustic signals could vary slightly as a result.

More here Source

Edited April 8, 2014 by Tywais
Next time add link to source or the post will be removed

[P45Mustang]

I strongly believe that if the plane hit vertically or nearly vertically, it would shatter into bits. Water is hard in that sense. There is no way to nose dive in other than at a very high speed.

Every pilot learns that you control speed with nose attitude (pitch). You control altitude with power. That is of course in normal flight. But if you pitch he nose straight down you will gain speed, and a lot of it even with the engine power clear off.

To dive straight in, you'd need to pull the power clear back and even then you'd gain so much speed you'd risk tearing the wings off. Regardless, when the plane hit the water it would shatter to bits.

There are many things in that plane that would float indefinitely. Every seat cushion is a life preserver. There will be things in the luggage that will float. There should be cargo items that float.

Yep. I hear you. Intact or relatively intact plane allowed to sink would I suppose be the best way of concealement.

Chicog's point about 31 days for debris to disperse is relevant I guess.

IF Ocean Shield is close to the box, presumably debris search is taking place in the vicinity.

Dynamics of debris dispersal may be complex.

You make good points.

My questions about suicide are why did someone turn off the signaling devices including the transponder? Why didn't he just stick it in?

The flying for thousands of miles with the pilots unconcious due to mechanical (pressurization) issues doesn't explain turning off those signalling devices. That sounds deliberate. Did someone do that and then fly the plane to above 40,000 feet to kill everyone including the pilots and then just let the autopilot fly it until it ran out of fuel?

If the plane ran out of fuel at altitude with no one at the controls, one engine would quit first as they have separate fuel tanks. That would preclude a smooth water landing. The plane would roll, probably enter a spin and go down fast.

Only questions. No answers.

I hope for the sake of family and friends they find this thing.

Yep. All this sounds consistent with known facts.

If it WAS suicide, it looks like somebody went to great lengths to hide the body as it were. The ultimate 'No suicide note' story.

Possible I suppose. Suicide whilst leaving an indelible mark on the world. Never to be forgotten as it were.

In any event it looks like somebody went to great lengths to conceal flight path and final resting place.

So, suicide or other?

[webfact]

Hunt for MH370 'pings' to go on for days before sub launch
Agence France-Presse
PERTH, Australia


A Chinese relative ® of passengers on Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 prays in front of candles as he takes part in a prayer service at the Metro Park Hotel in Beijing Tuesday.// AFP PHOTO / WANG ZHAO

The hunt for underwater signals from missing Flight MH370 is likely to continue for days before a robot submersible is deployed to comb the seabed, the Australian search chief said Tuesday.

The detection of sonic pings consistent with those emitted by aircraft black box recorders had raised hopes that a submersible would soon be sent down to the ocean floor.

However retired Air Chief Marshal Angus Houston said more signals were first needed and acoustic listening would continue until the batteries powering the emissions had expired.

"We need to continue that (search) for several days to the point at which there is absolutely no doubt that the pinger batteries will have expired," Angus Houston said. "Until we stop the pinger search we will not deploy the submersible."

Further signals would help to focus the hunt for a possible crash site, he said.

"If we can get more transmissions we can get a better fix on the ocean floor which will enable a much more narrowly focused visual search for wreckage," he said.

Houston said no further transmissions had been detected in the remote search area off western Australia which could help pinpoint where the jet carrying 239 people is believed to have crashed into the Indian Ocean.

"We need another transmission to better refine the area," Houston added.

Up to 11 military planes, three civilian planes and 14 ships were Tuesday taking part in the unprecedented search 2,268 kilometres northwest of Perth, the Joint Agency Coordination Centre (JACC) said.


-- The Nation 2014-04-08

[coma]

News just out

" The navy vessel that first detected pings from the MH370 black box on Sunday has not received any more signals since."

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/2014/04/08/18/01/no-more-pings-from-mh370

[Chicog]

That's in the story above.

From today's briefing earlier:

"“There have been no further contacts with any transmission and we need to continue (searching) for several days right up to the point at which there’s absolutely no doubt that the batteries will have expired,” Houston said.""

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Edited April 8, 2014 by Chicog

[P45Mustang]

That's in the story above.

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Yes.

I think we can discount the theory that the plane flew in reverse gear.

[Chicog]

http://i.stuff.co.nz/world/australia/9918524/How-did-MH370-hit-the-water

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[Chicog]

That's in the story above.

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Yes.

I think we can discount the theory that the plane flew in reverse gear.

Careful you might start another theory off.

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[P45Mustang]

http://i.stuff.co.nz/world/australia/9918524/How-did-MH370-hit-the-water

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[P45Mustang]

That's in the story above.

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Yes.

I think we can discount the theory that the plane flew in reverse gear.

Careful you might start another theory off.

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Fairly confident Orville and Wilbur's testimony will stand the test of time, albeit from the US.

[3NUMBAS]

no more pings so its gonna be a hard slog with the remote vehicles which may not have the reach as its too deep

[P45Mustang]

no more pings so its gonna be a hard slog with the remote vehicles which may not have the reach as its too deep

Bluefin might struggle.

Other vehicles have more potential apparently.

But yes.

Unlikely PRC hand held remote thingy will be up to it though.

[3NUMBAS]

Navy divers have been searching for the Malaysia Airlines flight MH370, after signals detected by a vessel consistent with those from black box flight recorders were hailed as "the most promising lead" in the month-long hunt so far.

The head of the Australian-led search for the missing Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 has said they will scour the sea before sending in a submersible underwater.

Australia’s Ocean Shield picked up the ‘pings’ on Saturday and Sunday, but were unable to relocate them on Monday.

They will now continue to trawl the area before sending a submersible to investigate whether faint sounds detected by equipment on board Australian vessel Ocean Shield are from the missing plane's black boxes.

If no further pings are detected, the autonomous underwater vehicle (AUV) Bluefin-21 is onboard the Ocean Shield and could be sent to look for wreckage on the sea floor.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/missing-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-frantic-search-for-black-box-continues-as-officials-consider--sending-in-submersible-9245546.html

[P45Mustang]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26923235

Next phases

On Sunday, Australia's naval support ship Ocean Shield is reported to have monitored "pings" for some two hours before losing the signal.

If a signal is picked up again, search crews could deploy the autonomous mini-submarine Bluefin-21, which can create a detailed map of the sea bed using sonar, and possibly also spot wreckage.

However, Bluefin 21 can only operate to depths of 4,500 metres, and if debris is lying in deeper water, other more specialised equipment will have to be brought in.

This could include the Remus and Remora unmanned mini-subs, used in the search for Air France flight 447 in 2011, which can operate at depths of up to 6,000 metres.