Translating documents for UK settlement visa

[7by7]

mostly because they were quite a bit cheaper ............

..........the translations were of pretty bad quality.

Am I the only one who can see the connection between these two statements?

[7by7]

<snip>

I have a question. I have heard that translated documents that are legalized by the MFA in Bkk are sometimes not accepted in the UK, notably in connection with Schengen applications, and that the documents are only accepted when they have been legalized by the Thai Embassy or Consulate in UK. Would someone please comment on this.

You have heard incorrectly.

For all UK government purposes there is no need to have translations legalised by the MFA; the certificate from the translator is enough. However, if the translation has been legalised by the MFA this will not cause any problems when using those translations in the UK.

Schengen countries, whether using the translations for some official government purpose in the country concerned or elsewhere, e.g. the UK, to apply for a Schengen visa, do require the translation be legalised by the MFA.

Either at the MFA in Bangkok or via the consular department at one's local Thai embassy.

Obviously, the former is quicker and easier for most; and cheaper for all.

(Edited for typos)

Edited June 11, 2014 by 7by7

[pasak]

I'm not sure why you come to the defence of these translation agencies 7by7. It doesn't matter whether they quote 250 baht or 500 baht for a document (and imo even 250 baht is too much), by contractually agreeing to do the translation they should do it correctly first time, regardless of the price.

Incidentally have you ever heard anything about an MFA legalized translation of a marriage certificate not being accepted by say, The French Embassy in London? Someone said they had to get it legalized again at The Thai Embassy because the MFA legalization wasn't acceptable.

[pasak]

<snip>

I have a question. I have heard that translated documents that are legalized by the MFA in Bkk are sometimes not accepted in the UK, notably in connection with Schengen applications, and that the documents are only accepted when they have been legalized by the Thai Embassy or Consulate in UK. Would someone please comment on this.

You have heard incorrectly.

For all UK government purposes there is no need to have translations legalised by the MFA; the certificate from the translator is enough. However, if the translation has been legalised by the MFA this will not cause any problems when using those translations in the UK.

Schengen countries, whether using the translations for some official government purpose in the country concerned or elsewhere, e.g. the UK, to apply for a Schengen visa, do require the translation be legalised by the MFA.

Either at the MFA in Bangkok or via the consular department at one's local Thai embassy.

Obviously, the former is quicker and easier for most; and cheaper for all.

(Edited for typos)

"You have heard incorrectly."

That is incorrect. I heard correctly. It is the one who made the original statement who may be said to be incorrect !.

[sandyf]

If you need to use the translation of a Thai marriage certificate for a Schengen visa application, then the translation does need to be notarised by the Thai MFA.

Not the only option, I used a GRO copy at the VFS Spanish office.

[7by7]

^^^^^

I am surprised; as it was not the translation which people could deposit with the GRO, but the original foreign certificate. Did the Spanish accept the certificate without a translation?

Depositing the certificate with the GRO did not validate the marriage under UK law. Indeed, if it is legal in the country where it took place it is also legal in the UK and, as far as I know, all other EEA countries.

All it meant, was that people could obtain a copy from the GRO if they needed it.

Most people did not bother.

The service was discontinued w.e.f. 1/1/14; see here. I suspect that the reasons given on that link are window dressing and the real reason for discontinuing the service was that so few couples bothered with it!

Those who did deposit their foreign marriage certificate with the GRO prior to 1/1/14 are still able to obtain a copy from them if desired.

[7by7]

I'm not sure why you come to the defence of these translation agencies 7by7.........

I'm not sure why you think that I am defending translation agencies; I am not. Especially those which give a poor service.

What I did do is point out that a proper, professional translator will be educated, despite your patronising comment earlier, and that one gets what one pays for!

The UKVI guide to supporting documents says (I've used the guide for visits, but they all contain this)

If you submit a document that is not in English or Welsh, it must be accompanied by a full translation that can be independently verified by the Home Office. Each translated document must contain:

confirmation from the translator that it is an accurate translation of the original document;

the date of the translation;

the translator's full name and signature; and

the translator's contact details.

OK, it does not say that the translator has to be a professional; but "can be independently verified" stongly suggests that a translation by the applicant, sponsor or a friend of sponsor and/or applicant would be viewed with suspicion!

However, if you want to do this rather than use a professional, that is up to you. Do let us know how you get on.

Incidentally have you ever heard anything about an MFA legalized translation of a marriage certificate not being accepted by say, The French Embassy in London? Someone said they had to get it legalized again at The Thai Embassy because the MFA legalization wasn't acceptable.

I have never heard of this. All those I know of, either via forums such as this or personally, who have applied for a Schengen visa in the UK, whether for France or another Schhengen state, have used a translation legalised either at the MFA in Bangkok or at the embassy in Kensington without any difficulty.

Your pedantic comment re "You have heard incorrectly" is noted.

Edited June 11, 2014 by 7by7

[ThaiVisaExpress]

Forward them to me via email if you look on our site you will see we offer this service we can scan them back and post these to the UK.

[sandyf]

^^^^^

I am surprised; as it was not the translation which people could deposit with the GRO, but the original foreign certificate. Did the Spanish accept the certificate without a translation?

Depositing the certificate with the GRO did not validate the marriage under UK law. Indeed, if it is legal in the country where it took place it is also legal in the UK and, as far as I know, all other EEA countries.

All it meant, was that people could obtain a copy from the GRO if they needed it.

Most people did not bother.

The service was discontinued w.e.f. 1/1/14; see here. I suspect that the reasons given on that link are window dressing and the real reason for discontinuing the service was that so few couples bothered with it!

Those who did deposit their foreign marriage certificate with the GRO prior to 1/1/14 are still able to obtain a copy from them if desired.

Not sure what you are trying to say here, You cannot deposit the marriage certificate without a certified translation. What you get back from the GRO is a copy of both original and the translation. All pages carry the GRO statement with the embossed seal, very much like a notarisation.

[7by7]

What I am saying is that all the information on this service from both FCO and the GROs was that it is the original, foreign certificate which was deposited with the GRO and copies of which were available from them.

As the service is no longer available, I cannot link to that information as it is no longer there; but my previous link and the Q&A contained therein both seem to confirm this as they talk about 'foreign marriage and civil partnership certificates' and make no mention of translations.

However, as like the majority of Brits who married abroad I saw no point in paying the excessive fee for this, to me pointless, exercise, I have no direct experience.

So I, obviously, accept your word on this as you have done it.

I surmise that you are correct and the GRO seal on the translation serves as a notarisation/legalisation for Schengen visa purposes; at least as far as the Spanish are concerned.

[sandyf]

What I am saying is that all the information on this service from both FCO and the GROs was that it is the original, foreign certificate which was deposited with the GRO and copies of which were available from them.

As the service is no longer available, I cannot link to that information as it is no longer there; but my previous link and the Q&A contained therein both seem to confirm this as they talk about 'foreign marriage and civil partnership certificates' and make no mention of translations.

However, as like the majority of Brits who married abroad I saw no point in paying the excessive fee for this, to me pointless, exercise, I have no direct experience.

So I, obviously, accept your word on this as you have done it.

I surmise that you are correct and the GRO seal on the translation serves as a notarisation/legalisation for Schengen visa purposes; at least as far as the Spanish are concerned.

I am not advocating the service one way or another. Someone who holds a GRO copy may be able to use that rather than go running around looking for a legal department.

It was not a question of being Spanish, we just happened to be going to Tenerife, somewhere that VFS had never heard of but that is another story. The Schengen visa application was handled by the VFS office at Sala Daeng which also does a few other countries.

[7by7]

As she applied in Bangkok, I'd have thought a trip to Laksi to have the translation authenticated at the MFA would have been quicker and cheaper than getting a copy from the GRO in the UK; but your choice.

BTW, VFS run visa application centres for many countries; but they make no decisions on applications. All decisions about issuing the actual visa are made by the appropriate officials of the country concerned; usually at that country's embassy.

That the Spanish accepted a translation with a UK GRO stamp on it but no Thai MFA one does not mean other Schengen countries will.

I'm not looking for an argument; merely want to ensure people are aware of all the permutations.

[sandyf]

As she applied in Bangkok, I'd have thought a trip to Laksi to have the translation authenticated at the MFA would have been quicker and cheaper than getting a copy from the GRO in the UK; but your choice.

BTW, VFS run visa application centres for many countries; but they make no decisions on applications. All decisions about issuing the actual visa are made by the appropriate officials of the country concerned; usually at that country's embassy.

That the Spanish accepted a translation with a UK GRO stamp on it but no Thai MFA one does not mean other Schengen countries will.

I'm not looking for an argument; merely want to ensure people are aware of all the permutations.

You seem to have missed something along the way. We have had the GRO copies for about 6 years.

Do not start on about VFS decisions. If VFS accept the marriage certificate the visa is free, if they do not you have to pay the visa fee, end of story. If you do not like it, only option is to appeal.

[7by7]

You seem to have missed something along the way. We have had the GRO copies for about 6 years.

Fair enough; though as you haven't said that before, I couldn't have missed it!

Do not start on about VFS decisions. If VFS accept the marriage certificate the visa is free, if they do not you have to pay the visa fee, end of story. If you do not like it, only option is to appeal.

It is not up to VFS to 'accept' a marriage certificate or not; i.e. decide whether or not a marriage certificate and/or translation is sufficient to prove the relationship.

Indeed; according to the relevant EU directive you don't even have to apply via VFS, or other outsource agency, but can apply direct to the embassy; although many embassies try to keep that quiet.

See under "I am a family member (spouse, child) of an EU/EEA citizen:" at Schengen Visa FAQ and links from there.

But we are wandering further and further away from the original subject.

[sandyf]

You seem to have missed something along the way. We have had the GRO copies for about 6 years.

Fair enough; though as you haven't said that before, I couldn't have missed it!

Do not start on about VFS decisions. If VFS accept the marriage certificate the visa is free, if they do not you have to pay the visa fee, end of story. If you do not like it, only option is to appeal.

It is not up to VFS to 'accept' a marriage certificate or not; i.e. decide whether or not a marriage certificate and/or translation is sufficient to prove the relationship.

Indeed; according to the relevant EU directive you don't even have to apply via VFS, or other outsource agency, but can apply direct to the embassy; although many embassies try to keep that quiet.

See under "I am a family member (spouse, child) of an EU/EEA citizen:" at Schengen Visa FAQ and links from there.

But we are wandering further and further away from the original subject.

You are misleading people on the basis of what you have read rather than reality. If you are comfortable with that, then feel free to carry on.

Some of us would prefer first hand information.

[7by7]

I am aware that the Spanish embassy in Bangkok are not the easiest to deal with and do ignore, or at best seem unaware of, the rules; posts on here show that.

I am also aware that those who know and insist on their rights are treated as they should be by them; posts on here show that.

As for your petty accusation, either:

• show me where anything I have posted is not in accordance with the EU freedom of movement directive, Schengen rules and requirements or VFS remit, or
• withdraw your remark.

[sandyf]

I am aware that the Spanish embassy in Bangkok are not the easiest to deal with and do ignore, or at best seem unaware of, the rules; posts on here show that.

I am also aware that those who know and insist on their rights are treated as they should be by them; posts on here show that.

As for your petty accusation, either:

• show me where anything I have posted is not in accordance with the EU freedom of movement directive, Schengen rules and requirements or VFS remit, or
• withdraw your remark.

In post No 27 you made a statement that was not entirely accurate, Thai MFA is not a definitive requirement. I myself did not use the MFA and a friend in the UK that took his wife to Holland not that long ago certainly did not use the Thai MFA.

By your own admission you are unfamiliar with the GRO but wriggled like a worm trying to defend your original statement. I hope you are right and that nobody that has read your post does hold a GRO certificate. I for one would not be very pleased if I found out afterwords that I did not need to go to the MFA.

When you apply for a Schengen visa at VFS the counter staff have a list of requirements, one of which is the visa fee. By default they ask for all the documents and the visa fee. If you think you are entitled to fee exemption then you have to say so and on what basis. If they agree then the application will be accepted, if they do not agree you either pay the fee or the application does not go any further. In short no visa.

The following statement is not entirely factual, obviously what you have read.

"Indeed; according to the relevant EU directive you don't even have to apply via VFS, or other outsource agency, but can apply direct to the embassy; although many embassies try to keep that quiet."

This was the response from the Spanish Embassy.

Subject: RE: Visa appointment

Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 04:36:31 +0100

From: [email protected]

To: [email protected]

Dear madam,

Short-term visa applications (“Schengen visas”) must be submitted at the new Visa Center by VFS, from Monday to Friday 08.30 – 12.00 and 13.00 – 16.00, without prior appointment.

191 Silom Complex Building, 15^th Floor, Unit C, Silom Road, Silom, Bangrak, Bangkok 10500

You may also call VFS Help line 02 263 91 00

Regards,

[7by7]

I have not admitted to being unfamiliar with the GRO; I said I did not use it. I am, or rather was as it no longer is an option, familiar with it as I looked into this matter thoroughly at the time of my own marriage and, like the majority, decided it wasn't worth the cost nor the effort.

It is unlikely that many people will have been foolish enough to pay to lodge their Thai marriage certificate with the GRO as doing so serves absolutely no useful purpose. Therefore most Schengen visa applicants will need a Thai MFA stamp.

To try and stop this pointless argument, I took you at your word about lodging a translation of your certificate with the GRO and then getting a 'GRO stamped translation' which was accepted by the Spanish; even though everything the Spanish, the GRO and UKVI and the FCO say is different.

I just hope no one takes you at your word on this and has their application refused as there is no Thai MFA authenticated translation!

Meanwhile, have a read of this topic about an application in the UK, and this one about Bangkok to see how often the Spanish try to bend or ignore the rules; exactly as they have done in the reply you quote.

I'm done with this circular, pointless argument.

You may take that as some form of petty victory if you wish.

Edited June 22, 2014 by 7by7

[pasak]

I am still not entirely convinced that an embassy of a Schengen country is certain to accept a Thai marriage certificate that has been legalized by the MFA in Thailand. Despite quotes affirming the acceptability of such a legalization, I have read so many stories of people producing their MFA legalized Thai marriage certificates only to be told that they should have been legalized by a Thai consulate or Embassy within the Schengen country where they are making their application.

This could be the awkwardness of some of the embassy staff (the Spanish embassy are notorious in this regard it seems), and it may be that if you quote the rules and show some knowledge they will back off. If so then what a sorry state of affairs from Europe's public servants.

BTW 7 by 7, it was not a pedantic comment, purely an accurate one. I'm sure you'll agree that there's a big difference between reporting another's opinion and voicing one's own opinion. Where would we be in the world of internet forums if that was not clearly differentiated?

[jimn]

The following statement is not entirely factual, obviously what you have read.

"Indeed; according to the relevant EU directive you don't even have to apply via VFS, or other outsource agency, but can apply direct to the embassy; although many embassies try to keep that quiet."

This was the response from the Spanish Embassy.

Subject: RE: Visa appointment

Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 04:36:31 +0100

From: [email protected]

To: [email protected]

Dear madam,

Short-term visa applications (“Schengen visas”) must be submitted at the new Visa Center by VFS, from Monday to Friday 08.30 – 12.00 and 13.00 – 16.00, without prior appointment.

191 Silom Complex Building, 15^th Floor, Unit C, Silom Road, Silom, Bangrak, Bangkok 10500

You may also call VFS Help line 02 263 91 00

Regards,

Sandy

You getting it wrong again.

7by7 is referring to freedom of movement across Europe for the spouse of a resident of a member state. Not Schengan visa. Read below Sandy you must have missed it.

See under "I am a family member (spouse, child) of an EU/EEA citizen:" at Schengen Visa FAQ and links from there

[sandyf]

The following statement is not entirely factual, obviously what you have read.

"Indeed; according to the relevant EU directive you don't even have to apply via VFS, or other outsource agency, but can apply direct to the embassy; although many embassies try to keep that quiet."

This was the response from the Spanish Embassy.

Subject: RE: Visa appointment

Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 04:36:31 +0100

From: [email protected]

To: [email protected]

Dear madam,

Short-term visa applications (“Schengen visas”) must be submitted at the new Visa Center by VFS, from Monday to Friday 08.30 – 12.00 and 13.00 – 16.00, without prior appointment.

191 Silom Complex Building, 15^th Floor, Unit C, Silom Road, Silom, Bangrak, Bangkok 10500

You may also call VFS Help line 02 263 91 00

Regards,

Sandy

You getting it wrong again.

7by7 is referring to freedom of movement across Europe for the spouse of a resident of a member state. Not Schengan visa. Read below Sandy you must have missed it.

See under "I am a family member (spouse, child) of an EU/EEA citizen:" at Schengen Visa FAQ and links from there

This statement " but can apply direct to the embassy; " was made in respect of a Schengen visa application, This is just not true and misleading.

Two that I know of for a fact are the Spanish Embassy in Bangkok and the Dutch Embassy in London. All applications for Shengen visas must be made to the respective VFS office. Unless you are a diplomat or one of several other special groups.

Doubt if there are many of those on here.

[theoldgit]

This statement " but can apply direct to the embassy; " was made in respect of a Schengen visa application, This is just not true and misleading.

Two that I know of for a fact are the Spanish Embassy in Bangkok and the Dutch Embassy in London. All applications for Shengen visas must be made to the respective VFS office. Unless you are a diplomat or one of several other special groups.

Doubt if there are many of those on here.

I'm sorry but you're wrong, the statement is neither not true or misleading, the right to lodge an application for a Schengen Visa directly to a Consulate is enshrined in European Law, just because some Consulates choose to ignore the rules doesn't mean the rule and the right to do so doesn't exist.

Some Consulates abide by the rules and advise potential applicants of the right to lodge directly, the Dutch for instance, whilst the Spanish choose not to do so, but the fact remains that it is a fundamental right.

I know from experience that some Consulates will back down if challenged, and they will back down rather quickly if the EU's SOLVIT service becomes involved. I suspect that the erring Consulates are lazy and prefer applicants to use their nominated Application Centre, with of course the applicant footing the bill.

5. The Member State(s) concerned shall maintain the possi­bility for all applicants to lodge their applications directly at its/their consulates.

PART III: ORGANISATION OF THE COLLECTION OF VISA APPLICATIONS

Legal basis: Visa Code, Articles 40 – 44

Fundamental principles

The visa requirement is an obligation imposed by the European Union and its Member States on third country nationals. The collection of visa applications should not be organised in such a way that it represents an obstacle in itself.

No matter how a Member State chooses to organise the collection of visa applications, the following principles should be respected:

• an applicant should always be entitled to submit his application directly at the consulate, particularly in the case of cooperation with an external service provider (‘direct access principle’);

4.4. Direct access

Maintaining the possibility for visa applicants to lodge their applications directly at the consulate instead of via an external service provider implies that there should be a genuine choice between these two possibilities.

EN 22 EN

Even if direct access does not have to be organised under identical or similar conditions to those for access to the service provider, the conditions should not make direct access impossible in practice. Even if it is acceptable to have a different waiting time for obtaining an appointment in the case of direct access, the waiting time should not be so long that it would render direct access impossible in practice. The different options available for lodging a visa application should be presented plainly to the public, including clear information both on the choice and the cost of the additional services of the external service provider (see Part I, point 4.1).

[sandyf]

This statement " but can apply direct to the embassy; " was made in respect of a Schengen visa application, This is just not true and misleading.

Two that I know of for a fact are the Spanish Embassy in Bangkok and the Dutch Embassy in London. All applications for Shengen visas must be made to the respective VFS office. Unless you are a diplomat or one of several other special groups.

Doubt if there are many of those on here.

I'm sorry but you're wrong, the statement is neither not true or misleading, the right to lodge an application for a Schengen Visa directly to a Consulate is enshrined in European Law, just because some Consulates choose to ignore the rules doesn't mean the rule and the right to do so doesn't exist.

Some Consulates abide by the rules and advise potential applicants of the right to lodge directly, the Dutch for instance, whilst the Spanish choose not to do so, but the fact remains that it is a fundamental right.

I know from experience that some Consulates will back down if challenged, and they will back down rather quickly if the EU's SOLVIT service becomes involved. I suspect that the erring Consulates are lazy and prefer applicants to use their nominated Application Centre, with of course the applicant footing the bill.

5. The Member State(s) concerned shall maintain the possi­bility for all applicants to lodge their applications directly at its/their consulates.

PART III: ORGANISATION OF THE COLLECTION OF VISA APPLICATIONS

Legal basis: Visa Code, Articles 40 – 44

Fundamental principles

The visa requirement is an obligation imposed by the European Union and its Member States on third country nationals. The collection of visa applications should not be organised in such a way that it represents an obstacle in itself.

No matter how a Member State chooses to organise the collection of visa applications, the following principles should be respected:

• an applicant should always be entitled to submit his application directly at the consulate, particularly in the case of cooperation with an external service provider (‘direct access principle’);

4.4. Direct access

Maintaining the possibility for visa applicants to lodge their applications directly at the consulate instead of via an external service provider implies that there should be a genuine choice between these two possibilities.

EN 22 EN

Even if direct access does not have to be organised under identical or similar conditions to those for access to the service provider, the conditions should not make direct access impossible in practice. Even if it is acceptable to have a different waiting time for obtaining an appointment in the case of direct access, the waiting time should not be so long that it would render direct access impossible in practice. The different options available for lodging a visa application should be presented plainly to the public, including clear information both on the choice and the cost of the additional services of the external service provider (see Part I, point 4.1).

The reality is that the Spanish Embassy refused to give us an appointment. Should I have quoted the rule book and take a chance that it would not affect our plans?

At the end of the day we live in the real world.

[theoldgit]

The reality is that the Spanish Embassy refused to give us an appointment. Should I have quoted the rule book and take a chance that it would not affect our plans?

At the end of the day we live in the real world.

I personally would have reminded them of European Law, but if you were not comfortable doing so I assume you reminded them what is said on the VFS Website:

Short-term visa applications can be submitted at the Visa Application Centre in Bangkok without prior appointment. Please note that you can also submit the application at the Embassy, but you will need to schedule an appointment at [email protected].

If you wish to apply for a Long term visa, please contact the Embassy ([email protected]).

http://www.vfsglobal.com/spain/thailand/

I personally wouldn't allow a Consulate to ride rough shot over me, but I wouldn't criticise those that do. I complained recently when a Visa Section in Bangkok chose to ignore the Schengen Regulations, and when then they ignored my complaint I escalated my grievance to the EU Solvit service, and they backed down pretty quick.

In the real world the rules and regulations are there for a reason, we are expected to abide by them and so should the Consulates.

[thonglorjimmy]

The reality is that the Spanish Embassy refused to give us an appointment. Should I have quoted the rule book and take a chance that it would not affect our plans?

At the end of the day we live in the real world.

I personally would have reminded them of European Law, but if you were not comfortable doing so I assume you reminded them what is said on the VFS Website:

I apologise to those who offer advice on this forum for keeping this thread off topic, but this may be of interest to some members.

My partner wishes to apply to the Spanish Consulate for a Schengen Visa without going through VFS. She followed the advice given in a previous post, and yesterday sent them an email asking for an appointment, this was their response today.

APPOINTMENT TO SUBMIT A VISA APPLICATION

Your request has been accepted. Please print this e-mail and submit your visa application on the following date:

DATE OF APPOINTMENT: JULY 1

TIME:10.00 hrs.

The visa application must be submitted in person at the Embassy.

Please be advised that no application will be accepted without all the necessary documents.

So it seems that the Spanish Consulate is now complying with the Schengen Area Regulations

[pasak]

The translation of our marriage certificate that we did ourselves was not accepted by the Thai MFA recently. We had given an incorrect title to the official who signed the certificate. No matter, we ended up using the translation service within the MFA. I believe it cost 200 Baht which was fairly acceptable as it was a faultless translation, unlike the translations we had had done at a Ploenchit agency in the past.

As is customary, the price goes up and the service goes down once you go to Farang trafficked areas like Ploenchit.

[apiwan]

Forgive my ignorance.

But what is MFA?

And where is it?

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[pasak]

Forgive my ignorance.

But what is MFA?

And where is it?

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

MFA = Ministry of Foreign Affairs, 123 Chaeng Wattana Road, Laksi, Bangkok.