Abhisit, Suthep sued over crackdown temple deaths

[tezzainoz]

The ONLY way this becomes more than a complete waste of time, is if someone, somewhere has a written order telling the soldiers to shoot people and can produce it in Court.

Other than that, if the Govt (as has been shown previously) ordered safe zones, no shooting etc then it's the soldiers that should be on trial.

Oh wait, can't do that, they already had a blanket amnesty for that.

Case closed.

Yes there is proof.

Suthep signed the papers that allowed the army to use live ammunition against protesters.

Since the Nuremberg trials established that those giving the orders, and not necessarily with their finger on the trigger, are guilty of crimes against humanity. Since Nuremberg the international courts have brought several cases against those who ordered crimes against humanity.

It is up to the courts to judge but my option is there is prima facia evidence that there is a direct link between giving an order to allow the use of live ammunition and civilians gunned down in the sanctuary of a temple.

The soldiers who opened fire need to be prosecuted as so the officers in charge, all the way up to Abhisit and Suthep with the greatest penalties reserved for those at the top.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

So you would make Thailand the laugh of every country in the world, setting a presedence like this. Yingluck would face the same fate

Every Government in the world that sent soldiers to war and shot some one not firing at them would be open for the same charges

Unless you have a signed order to kill people at the temple

This is a layers scam to part fools and their money

Shooting to death a nurse treating an injured man 5 times inside a temple designated as a safe haven is murder.

Those soldiers should be indicted for murder and those who gave them their orders.

This wasn't a war yet.

If it was indeed the soldiers that did it, I would agree. I'm not convinced though that they were indeed the ones that shot and killed "all" of those that died during the protests.

The case is being brought by relatives of those slain in the temple so naturally that is the subject of this topic.

Tezza suggests no army could go to war in such circumstances but even wars are subjected to ground rules. Break those rules and you can face international courts.

But we are not even talkin of a war situation against external enemies but of soldiers firing at their own countrymen and women taking refuge in a place of religious worship. How low can you go to shoot and kill a nurse when she is trying to save lives?

The responsibility lies with those who gave the orders whether it was to open fire or allow live ammunition to be used.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

The law will need the soldiers that shot these people, they are the murder's

then they can go for those that gave the orders

those of you who are no it all please write the names of the soldiers who shot the people

because

it is my memory no one knows who they where, or even if the where soldiers

Thaskin is taking a new way, as apart from Suthep they have stayed out of the light show in this protest

Thaskin want them back on the front Pages

He knows he is loosing the final outcome with his sister

[bobmac10]

Can these courts order the death penalty? If found guilty it would be the appropriate penalty.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

And on what planet would that be appropriate or even where they would be found guilty.

Government says "Temple is a safe sanctuary", Soldier decides to shoot two people, lawyer persuades victims families to charge PM and Dep PM with pre-meditated murder - That will work then...not! Regardless of outcome, the families pay large amount of money to said lawyer, case kicked out of court as garbage after much time wasting, and fees being paid to the courts (and more to the lawyer). Result Lawyer wins and he doesn't give a flying fruit cake that everyone else loses.

End of factual statements, carry on and make it up as you wish as per normal.

Since when is firing live rounds at unarmed civilians who are sheltering in a designated sactuary OK?

Of course, no matter what is said, it's never OK.

This was a disgraceful misuse of military power agains one's own citizens.

It can never be sanctioned and those responsible must be brought to justice.

It needs to be proven that the order to fire on the civilians was premeditated, but if it was , those ba#tards should be locked up for many years.

Of course, it could have been an overzealous commander, however it will never be known until the case is brought to trial.

[kimamey]

The Emergency Decree raised by abhisit on the 7th April 2010 actually provides immunity from prosecution (why do you think he chose that date to enact the SOE, just before the army were given ROE including the use of live ammunition on the 10th by suthep/abhisit). That is of course providing that the courts judging abhisit and suthep for murder do not judge the actions taken as disproportionate to the threat faced - that could be a difficulty, what with live fire zones, the use of snipers and the fact that around 80 civilians were killed.

I've just had a quick look at an English translation of the Emergency Decree so this is just my first thoughts based on that.

The Emergency Decree on Government Administration in States of Emergency B.E. 2548 (2005) was the legislation used so it wasn't written by Abhisit or the Democrats so he didn't personally give an amnesty to the military as it was already part of the decree. I don't know who was involved in the writing of the decree but it was countersigned by

Pol. Lt. Col Thaksin Shinawatra

Prime Minister

I'm still nor certain that it could be applied in the cases in the OP as it only covers people if the 'act is performed in good faith, is non discriminatory and is not unreasonable in the circumstances exceeding the extent of necessity but does not preclude the right of a victim to seek compensation from a government agency under the law on liability for wrongful acts of officials.'

Looking at that the government might be liable for compensation. The army might not be covered if they acted outside their orders.

Did I say that abhisit had personally written the SOE? The short answer is No.

I'd like to see your link to the SOE they used because I am pretty <deleted> sure they would not be using one that was countersigned by Thaksin. Think about it for heavens sake. How would the SOE be legal if it was countersigned by Thaksin, Prime Minister? It doesn't take a lot of thinking about, surely?

I suspect the SOE you are quoting is not the one raised by abhisit.

Sorry I wasn't suggesting you had said that Abhisit had written the SOE only that the inclusion of immunity wasn't down to him. that was partly for the benefit of those on here who seem to believe that the Dems control all legislation they don't like.

I'm assuming that the in the event of situations such as now and 2010 there needs to be a decree ready to be enacted as it wouldn't be possible to draft one at the time.

I think I may have worded my post badly. Thaksin countersigned the decree in 2005 when he was PM so there wouldn't be a problem with legality.

I can only find unofficial translations and Thai versions. If you can read Thai then you're lucky. There are a lot of sources which seem to be pretty much the same and support all the comments I've heard about it.

http://thailand.ahrchk.net/emergency2010/ Link to PDF at bottom of first section on the right.

http://www.refworld.org/docid/482b005f2.html%E2%80%8E

Some link directly to PDFs but if you Google :

The Emergency Decree on Government Administration in States of Emergency B.E. 2548

There are a lot of links including one to a letter from Human Rights watch to Thaksin complaining about the decree.

[whybother]

Since when is firing live rounds at unarmed civilians who are sheltering in a designated sactuary OK?

Of course, no matter what is said, it's never OK.

This was a disgraceful misuse of military power agains one's own citizens.

It can never be sanctioned and those responsible must be brought to justice.

It needs to be proven that the order to fire on the civilians was premeditated, but if it was , those ba#tards should be locked up for many years.

Of course, it could have been an overzealous commander, however it will never be known until the case is brought to trial.

Has anyone said that the firing at unarmed civilians in the temple was OK?

The authorisation of the use of live ammunition by the Abhisit government is a completely different issue to the killing of civilians in the wat. The government was dealing with protesters that were using military weapons and grenades. How should a government respond to protesters using military guns and grenades?

The army stepped way over the line with the shooting of civilians in the wat. Do you really think that there was a government order to do that?

[darren84310]

It should also include the Chief of the Army. His man did the shooting.

They have answered the defence's case already.... "The temple was declared a safe zone by the government."

Therefore, how can the government be responsible if they give orders, but they are broken by the army. It should be those who fired the shots and their immediate supervisors who should be facing the wrath.

But we all know that this is politically motivated and those poor families are being used as pawns.

I would say the same if they try and charge Yingluck over Laksi.

[bobmac10]

Since when is firing live rounds at unarmed civilians who are sheltering in a designated sactuary OK?

Of course, no matter what is said, it's never OK.

This was a disgraceful misuse of military power agains one's own citizens.

It can never be sanctioned and those responsible must be brought to justice.

It needs to be proven that the order to fire on the civilians was premeditated, but if it was , those ba#tards should be locked up for many years.

Of course, it could have been an overzealous commander, however it will never be known until the case is brought to trial.

Has anyone said that the firing at unarmed civilians in the temple was OK?

The authorisation of the use of live ammunition by the Abhisit government is a completely different issue to the killing of civilians in the wat. The government was dealing with protesters that were using military weapons and grenades. How should a government respond to protesters using military guns and grenades?

The army stepped way over the line with the shooting of civilians in the wat. Do you really think that there was a government order to do that?

Well, this is a bit of a garbled response but I'll do my best to untangle your words.

First, the government was dealing with protesters that were using military weapons and greanades.... ok fine

My response to the same scenario is "It needs to be proven that the order to fire on the civilians was premeditated"

So I have already stated that it needs to be proven that the firing on the people in the wat was premeditated.

Do I think there was a government order to do that? How do I know.?... how do you know?

We don't, BUT a court case where the ability to provide evidence to prove or disprove the charges is a good place to start.

Clearly, if those bringing the case against the government leaders have proof, then it should stand up.

If they don't then it will fall over.

I don't believe we can speculate on whether the government gave the order until all the facts are revealed.

[NCFC]

The ONLY way this becomes more than a complete waste of time, is if someone, somewhere has a written order telling the soldiers to shoot people and can produce it in Court.

Other than that, if the Govt (as has been shown previously) ordered safe zones, no shooting etc then it's the soldiers that should be on trial.

Oh wait, can't do that, they already had a blanket amnesty for that.

Case closed.

Yes there is proof.

Suthep signed the papers that allowed the army to use live ammunition against protesters.

Since the Nuremberg trials established that those giving the orders, and not necessarily with their finger on the trigger, are guilty of crimes against humanity. Since Nuremberg the international courts have brought several cases against those who ordered crimes against humanity.

It is up to the courts to judge but my option is there is prima facia evidence that there is a direct link between giving an order to allow the use of live ammunition and civilians gunned down in the sanctuary of a temple.

The soldiers who opened fire need to be prosecuted as so the officers in charge, all the way up to Abhisit and Suthep with the greatest penalties reserved for those at the top.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Nuremberg was a show. A bad one too.

If this was a real trial, Churchill and others should be there as well. That includes the rocket scientist Wernher from Braun too.

How does it come that using slave workers and suggesting to Hitler that using Penemunde as secret research base, well knowing that every worker will be killed when completed isn't related to a crime ?

Bombing Dresden was also a simple war crime as it was the fire storm on Frankfurt by US bombers or dropping the bombs on two Japan cities.

In WW2, the US army had a research program, finding out how to inflame best German buildings and cities. This knowledge was used than in many bombardments, including Frankfurt.

Not to mention the civilian killings in all the US lead wars, starting at WW2, continuous in Vietnam where complete villages where destroyed and killed and goes straight to Afghanistan where civilians are killed daily.

Strange that only a few cases did fit for the international courts when in fact every US government is guilty in committing war crimes.

So don't come up with Nuremberg and justice since than. There is none.

On the other hand, Abhisit and Suthep orders where more or less justified, even if executed very poorly.

There is enough video proof available that armed protesters and even some kind of under ground army was present.

Videos of black guys run around with rifles and civilians using mortars sure still available on youtube.

At the nearby BTS station, CNN did film there armed civilians right before the temple killings, partly in army clothings or black, but clearly not Thai army.

A German newspaper did bring up an interview and this guys where telling proudly that they have well trained and armed supporters at the rally site.

All evidence that Abhisit and Suthep had to act and the burnings/luting at the end show very well how peaceful this protesters where.

I was very close to the rally site in Bangkok at this time and saw my self armed civilians in army like clothing. In my view the government acted to late, way to late.

The point you are missing is that this case has been brought by the families of those who were killed while sheltering in a temple. They were not engaged with the army nor committing any unlawful acts.

The killings were certainly premeditated as these were no random acts. These were not people caught in cross fire but actually hunted down and killed. If you or anyone else were visiting the temple that day you would have become a target and hunting down people in this manner is a crime against humanity, in my opinion

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[Tatsujin]

The ONLY way this becomes more than a complete waste of time, is if someone, somewhere has a written order telling the soldiers to shoot people and can produce it in Court.

Other than that, if the Govt (as has been shown previously) ordered safe zones, no shooting etc then it's the soldiers that should be on trial.

Oh wait, can't do that, they already had a blanket amnesty for that.

Case closed.

Yes there is proof.

Suthep signed the papers that allowed the army to use live ammunition against protesters.

Since the Nuremberg trials established that those giving the orders, and not necessarily with their finger on the trigger, are guilty of crimes against humanity. Since Nuremberg the international courts have brought several cases against those who ordered crimes against humanity.

It is up to the courts to judge but my option is there is prima facia evidence that there is a direct link between giving an order to allow the use of live ammunition and civilians gunned down in the sanctuary of a temple.

The soldiers who opened fire need to be prosecuted as so the officers in charge, all the way up to Abhisit and Suthep with the greatest penalties reserved for those at the top.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Nuremberg was a show. A bad one too.

If this was a real trial, Churchill and others should be there as well. That includes the rocket scientist Wernher from Braun too.

How does it come that using slave workers and suggesting to Hitler that using Penemunde as secret research base, well knowing that every worker will be killed when completed isn't related to a crime ?

Bombing Dresden was also a simple war crime as it was the fire storm on Frankfurt by US bombers or dropping the bombs on two Japan cities.

In WW2, the US army had a research program, finding out how to inflame best German buildings and cities. This knowledge was used than in many bombardments, including Frankfurt.

Not to mention the civilian killings in all the US lead wars, starting at WW2, continuous in Vietnam where complete villages where destroyed and killed and goes straight to Afghanistan where civilians are killed daily.

Strange that only a few cases did fit for the international courts when in fact every US government is guilty in committing war crimes.

So don't come up with Nuremberg and justice since than. There is none.

On the other hand, Abhisit and Suthep orders where more or less justified, even if executed very poorly.

There is enough video proof available that armed protesters and even some kind of under ground army was present.

Videos of black guys run around with rifles and civilians using mortars sure still available on youtube.

At the nearby BTS station, CNN did film there armed civilians right before the temple killings, partly in army clothings or black, but clearly not Thai army.

A German newspaper did bring up an interview and this guys where telling proudly that they have well trained and armed supporters at the rally site.

All evidence that Abhisit and Suthep had to act and the burnings/luting at the end show very well how peaceful this protesters where.

I was very close to the rally site in Bangkok at this time and saw my self armed civilians in army like clothing. In my view the government acted to late, way to late.

Chalerm himself has admitted that the MiB were undercover Police.

And the latest report from the DSI showed that one of the Journalists was killed by rounds from an AK47, coincidentally the weapon that some of the MiB were using. Curious also how nearly ALL video and picture of those MiB have disappeared from online, yet I remember the events clearly and saw many unknown gunmen carrying "war weapons".

Thai's are very good at rewriting history to suit their purposes.

[NCFC]

The ONLY way this becomes more than a complete waste of time, is if someone, somewhere has a written order telling the soldiers to shoot people and can produce it in Court.

Other than that, if the Govt (as has been shown previously) ordered safe zones, no shooting etc then it's the soldiers that should be on trial.

Oh wait, can't do that, they already had a blanket amnesty for that.

Case closed.

Yes there is proof.

Suthep signed the papers that allowed the army to use live ammunition against protesters.

Since the Nuremberg trials established that those giving the orders, and not necessarily with their finger on the trigger, are guilty of crimes against humanity. Since Nuremberg the international courts have brought several cases against those who ordered crimes against humanity.

It is up to the courts to judge but my option is there is prima facia evidence that there is a direct link between giving an order to allow the use of live ammunition and civilians gunned down in the sanctuary of a temple.

The soldiers who opened fire need to be prosecuted as so the officers in charge, all the way up to Abhisit and Suthep with the greatest penalties reserved for those at the top.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Nuremberg was a show. A bad one too.

If this was a real trial, Churchill and others should be there as well. That includes the rocket scientist Wernher from Braun too.

How does it come that using slave workers and suggesting to Hitler that using Penemunde as secret research base, well knowing that every worker will be killed when completed isn't related to a crime ?

Bombing Dresden was also a simple war crime as it was the fire storm on Frankfurt by US bombers or dropping the bombs on two Japan cities.

In WW2, the US army had a research program, finding out how to inflame best German buildings and cities. This knowledge was used than in many bombardments, including Frankfurt.

Not to mention the civilian killings in all the US lead wars, starting at WW2, continuous in Vietnam where complete villages where destroyed and killed and goes straight to Afghanistan where civilians are killed daily.

Strange that only a few cases did fit for the international courts when in fact every US government is guilty in committing war crimes.

So don't come up with Nuremberg and justice since than. There is none.

On the other hand, Abhisit and Suthep orders where more or less justified, even if executed very poorly.

There is enough video proof available that armed protesters and even some kind of under ground army was present.

Videos of black guys run around with rifles and civilians using mortars sure still available on youtube.

At the nearby BTS station, CNN did film there armed civilians right before the temple killings, partly in army clothings or black, but clearly not Thai army.

A German newspaper did bring up an interview and this guys where telling proudly that they have well trained and armed supporters at the rally site.

All evidence that Abhisit and Suthep had to act and the burnings/luting at the end show very well how peaceful this protesters where.

I was very close to the rally site in Bangkok at this time and saw my self armed civilians in army like clothing. In my view the government acted to late, way to late.

Chalerm himself has admitted that the MiB were undercover Police.

And the latest report from the DSI showed that one of the Journalists was killed by rounds from an AK47, coincidentally the weapon that some of the MiB were using. Curious also how nearly ALL video and picture of those MiB have disappeared from online, yet I remember the events clearly and saw many unknown gunmen carrying "war weapons".

Thai's are very good at rewriting history to suit their purposes.

Once again you fail to comment on events at the temple. The subject of this topic

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[djjamie]

The former Prime Minister has acknowledged the charge and expressed his willingness to contest it in trials.

That is a good example to set for the youth of Thailand. What a refreshing outlook this is. The Honorable Abhisit believes he is innocent so will fight for his innocence in court. If found guilty I won't like the result, but I will accept it because the rule of law is a principle of democracy that needs to be adhered too.

​Ahbisit was restoring peace to Thailand at the hands of a brutal terrorist uprising that was trying to overthrow an elected government. If anything Ahbisit deserves a nobel peace prize for quelling the violence without the loss of further lives. If he did not do anything the brutal terrorist militia would have continued on their destructive path of terror.

The below is not a good example to set for the youth. They are people that support an accused mass murderer, accused terrorist, convicted criminal fugitive that supports coups (1992) when he can make billions of baht and denounces coups (2006) when he stops making billions of baht. The kicker being he is unelectable yet running the country. How democratic…Oh nearly forget. The guys below are disrespecting a principle of democracy called "Rule of Law"

​The electoral futility of thaksin is a litmus test of the party he controls.

I would wish Abhisit luck, but in a court of law luck doesn't come into it. Facts and evidence do and the Honorable Ahbisit has both of them.

Edited March 15, 2014 by djjamie

[Tatsujin]

The ONLY way this becomes more than a complete waste of time, is if someone, somewhere has a written order telling the soldiers to shoot people and can produce it in Court.

Other than that, if the Govt (as has been shown previously) ordered safe zones, no shooting etc then it's the soldiers that should be on trial.

Oh wait, can't do that, they already had a blanket amnesty for that.

Case closed.

Yes there is proof.

Suthep signed the papers that allowed the army to use live ammunition against protesters.

Since the Nuremberg trials established that those giving the orders, and not necessarily with their finger on the trigger, are guilty of crimes against humanity. Since Nuremberg the international courts have brought several cases against those who ordered crimes against humanity.

It is up to the courts to judge but my option is there is prima facia evidence that there is a direct link between giving an order to allow the use of live ammunition and civilians gunned down in the sanctuary of a temple.

The soldiers who opened fire need to be prosecuted as so the officers in charge, all the way up to Abhisit and Suthep with the greatest penalties reserved for those at the top.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Nuremberg was a show. A bad one too.

If this was a real trial, Churchill and others should be there as well. That includes the rocket scientist Wernher from Braun too.

How does it come that using slave workers and suggesting to Hitler that using Penemunde as secret research base, well knowing that every worker will be killed when completed isn't related to a crime ?

Bombing Dresden was also a simple war crime as it was the fire storm on Frankfurt by US bombers or dropping the bombs on two Japan cities.

In WW2, the US army had a research program, finding out how to inflame best German buildings and cities. This knowledge was used than in many bombardments, including Frankfurt.

Not to mention the civilian killings in all the US lead wars, starting at WW2, continuous in Vietnam where complete villages where destroyed and killed and goes straight to Afghanistan where civilians are killed daily.

Strange that only a few cases did fit for the international courts when in fact every US government is guilty in committing war crimes.

So don't come up with Nuremberg and justice since than. There is none.

On the other hand, Abhisit and Suthep orders where more or less justified, even if executed very poorly.

There is enough video proof available that armed protesters and even some kind of under ground army was present.

Videos of black guys run around with rifles and civilians using mortars sure still available on youtube.

At the nearby BTS station, CNN did film there armed civilians right before the temple killings, partly in army clothings or black, but clearly not Thai army.

A German newspaper did bring up an interview and this guys where telling proudly that they have well trained and armed supporters at the rally site.

All evidence that Abhisit and Suthep had to act and the burnings/luting at the end show very well how peaceful this protesters where.

I was very close to the rally site in Bangkok at this time and saw my self armed civilians in army like clothing. In my view the government acted to late, way to late.

Chalerm himself has admitted that the MiB were undercover Police.

And the latest report from the DSI showed that one of the Journalists was killed by rounds from an AK47, coincidentally the weapon that some of the MiB were using. Curious also how nearly ALL video and picture of those MiB have disappeared from online, yet I remember the events clearly and saw many unknown gunmen carrying "war weapons".

Thai's are very good at rewriting history to suit their purposes.

Once again you fail to comment on events at the temple. The subject of this topic

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Not at all, I made a comment about it earlier in this thread.

[fab4]

Has anyone said that the firing at unarmed civilians in the temple was OK?

The authorisation of the use of live ammunition by the Abhisit government is a completely different issue to the killing of civilians in the wat. The government was dealing with protesters that were using military weapons and grenades. How should a government respond to protesters using military guns and grenades?

The army stepped way over the line with the shooting of civilians in the wat. Do you really think that there was a government order to do that?

The problem for abhisit and suthep may lie in the 'ambiguity" of the ROE issued by CRES and signed by suthep wrt the use of snipers - Point 2.5 of the document

‘In the case when [the authorities] find flagrant offences in which the perpetrators are using firearms against officials, or use weapons or explosives against military positions and important premises as specified by the CRES, the authorities are authorized to use firearms against the perpetrators to stop their actions. But, if the perpetrators are mingling among the protesters to the extent that such use of firearms might endanger innocent people, the use of firearms is prohibited, except in cases where military units have already deployed marksmen sufficiently able to shoot to stop the activities. In addition, if military units find targets but cannot themselves carry out the shooting, for example, because the targets are shielded, etc., the units can ask for support from snipersfrom the CRES.’

Who decides whether "perpetrators are mingling among the protesters"?

You may recall that the soldiers involved in the shootings at the Temple used this as their "defence". They claimed that they were engaged in a firefight with protesters in the temple. This so called defence was rejected by the court as there was no evidence to back up such a claim.

Point 2.5 could be read in a way that allows the army to shoot at anyone if the "perpetrators are mingling among the protesters" and they had a "marksman" available, or even if "the perpetrators are using firearms against officials, or use weapons or explosives against military positions and important premises as specified by the CRES". Apparently slingshots and fireworks were regarded as "weapons" by the army.

abhisit "confirmed" this statement, thus paving the way for the army to follow its vague ROE.

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva has said armed "terrorists" are mixed in with the protesters, who number in the thousands. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/365969-bangkok-red-shirt-rally-live-monday/

Edited March 15, 2014 by fab4

[djjamie]

The ONLY way this becomes more than a complete waste of time, is if someone, somewhere has a written order telling the soldiers to shoot people and can produce it in Court.

Other than that, if the Govt (as has been shown previously) ordered safe zones, no shooting etc then it's the soldiers that should be on trial.

Oh wait, can't do that, they already had a blanket amnesty for that.

Case closed.

Yes there is proof.

Suthep signed the papers that allowed the army to use live ammunition against protesters.

Since the Nuremberg trials established that those giving the orders, and not necessarily with their finger on the trigger, are guilty of crimes against humanity. Since Nuremberg the international courts have brought several cases against those who ordered crimes against humanity.

It is up to the courts to judge but my option is there is prima facia evidence that there is a direct link between giving an order to allow the use of live ammunition and civilians gunned down in the sanctuary of a temple.

The soldiers who opened fire need to be prosecuted as so the officers in charge, all the way up to Abhisit and Suthep with the greatest penalties reserved for those at the top.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Nuremberg was a show. A bad one too.

If this was a real trial, Churchill and others should be there as well. That includes the rocket scientist Wernher from Braun too.

How does it come that using slave workers and suggesting to Hitler that using Penemunde as secret research base, well knowing that every worker will be killed when completed isn't related to a crime ?

Bombing Dresden was also a simple war crime as it was the fire storm on Frankfurt by US bombers or dropping the bombs on two Japan cities.

In WW2, the US army had a research program, finding out how to inflame best German buildings and cities. This knowledge was used than in many bombardments, including Frankfurt.

Not to mention the civilian killings in all the US lead wars, starting at WW2, continuous in Vietnam where complete villages where destroyed and killed and goes straight to Afghanistan where civilians are killed daily.

Strange that only a few cases did fit for the international courts when in fact every US government is guilty in committing war crimes.

So don't come up with Nuremberg and justice since than. There is none.

On the other hand, Abhisit and Suthep orders where more or less justified, even if executed very poorly.

There is enough video proof available that armed protesters and even some kind of under ground army was present.

Videos of black guys run around with rifles and civilians using mortars sure still available on youtube.

At the nearby BTS station, CNN did film there armed civilians right before the temple killings, partly in army clothings or black, but clearly not Thai army.

A German newspaper did bring up an interview and this guys where telling proudly that they have well trained and armed supporters at the rally site.

All evidence that Abhisit and Suthep had to act and the burnings/luting at the end show very well how peaceful this protesters where.

I was very close to the rally site in Bangkok at this time and saw my self armed civilians in army like clothing. In my view the government acted to late, way to late.

Chalerm himself has admitted that the MiB were undercover Police.

And the latest report from the DSI showed that one of the Journalists was killed by rounds from an AK47, coincidentally the weapon that some of the MiB were using. Curious also how nearly ALL video and picture of those MiB have disappeared from online, yet I remember the events clearly and saw many unknown gunmen carrying "war weapons".

Thai's are very good at rewriting history to suit their purposes.

No. Apparently you're wrong.

PTP's swell story is of innocent people with flowers in their hair signing kombaya around a camp fire while a MIB armed with nothing more than a guitar and a peace symbol necklace who is brandishing long braided hair is being slaughtered by a weapon firing 30000 bullets a second in the merciless grip of a huge demonizing muscle bound soldier that has fire in his eyes and a vendetta to kill as many innocent people as he can. Can't let facts and evidence get in the was of the agenda right.

Edited March 15, 2014 by djjamie

[whybother]

Has anyone said that the firing at unarmed civilians in the temple was OK?

The authorisation of the use of live ammunition by the Abhisit government is a completely different issue to the killing of civilians in the wat. The government was dealing with protesters that were using military weapons and grenades. How should a government respond to protesters using military guns and grenades?

The army stepped way over the line with the shooting of civilians in the wat. Do you really think that there was a government order to do that?

The problem for abhisit and suthep may lie in the 'ambiguity" of the ROE issued by CRES and signed by suthep wrt the use of snipers - Point 2.5 of the document

‘In the case when [the authorities] find flagrant offences in which the perpetrators are using firearms against officials, or use weapons or explosives against military positions and important premises as specified by the CRES, the authorities are authorized to use firearms against the perpetrators to stop their actions. But, if the perpetrators are mingling among the protesters to the extent that such use of firearms might endanger innocent people, the use of firearms is prohibited, except in cases where military units have already deployed marksmen sufficiently able to shoot to stop the activities. In addition, if military units find targets but cannot themselves carry out the shooting, for example, because the targets are shielded, etc., the units can ask for support from snipersfrom the CRES.’

Who decides whether "perpetrators are mingling among the protesters"?

You may recall that the soldiers involved in the shootings at the Temple used this as their "defence". They claimed that they were engaged in a firefight with protesters in the temple. This so called defence was rejected by the court as there was no evidence to back up such a claim.

Point 2.5 could be read in a way that allows the army to shoot at anyone if the "perpetrators are mingling among the protesters" and they had a "marksman" available, or even if "the perpetrators are using firearms against officials, or use weapons or explosives against military positions and important premises as specified by the CRES". Apparently slingshots and fireworks were regarded as "weapons" by the army.

abhisit "confirmed" this statement, thus paving the way for the army to follow its vague ROE.

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva has said armed "terrorists" are mixed in with the protesters, who number in the thousands. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/365969-bangkok-red-shirt-rally-live-monday/

The SOE says that the army can shoot at perpetrators amongst the protesters.

The army claimed that there were perpetrators amongst the protesters in the wat.

The courts rejected that. Therefore, the army shouldn't have been shooting at people in the wat. According to the courts, the army didn't follow the rules.

[fab4]

Chalerm himself has admitted that the MiB were undercover Police.

And the latest report from the DSI showed that one of the Journalists was killed by rounds from an AK47, coincidentally the weapon that some of the MiB were using. Curious also how nearly ALL video and picture of those MiB have disappeared from online, yet I remember the events clearly and saw many unknown gunmen carrying "war weapons".

Thai's are very good at rewriting history to suit their purposes.

Isn't Chalerm regarded by you and your ilk as a useless drunk liar? Hardly sterling material for basing your evidence on, surely?

Oh and about this "latest report from the DSI showed that one of the Journalists was killed by rounds from an AK47".

Do you have a link? It's just that I'm sure you got mixed up with the report where the DSI changed the original findings that a M16 round was responsible to one that said an AK47 was, after the Army's Chief of Staff paid them a visit.

[fab4]

The problem for abhisit and suthep may lie in the 'ambiguity" of the ROE issued by CRES and signed by suthep wrt the use of snipers - Point 2.5 of the document

‘In the case when [the authorities] find flagrant offences in which the perpetrators are using firearms against officials, or use weapons or explosives against military positions and important premises as specified by the CRES, the authorities are authorized to use firearms against the perpetrators to stop their actions. But, if the perpetrators are mingling among the protesters to the extent that such use of firearms might endanger innocent people, the use of firearms is prohibited, except in cases where military units have already deployed marksmen sufficiently able to shoot to stop the activities. In addition, if military units find targets but cannot themselves carry out the shooting, for example, because the targets are shielded, etc., the units can ask for support from snipersfrom the CRES.’

Who decides whether "perpetrators are mingling among the protesters"?

You may recall that the soldiers involved in the shootings at the Temple used this as their "defence". They claimed that they were engaged in a firefight with protesters in the temple. This so called defence was rejected by the court as there was no evidence to back up such a claim.

Point 2.5 could be read in a way that allows the army to shoot at anyone if the "perpetrators are mingling among the protesters" and they had a "marksman" available, or even if "the perpetrators are using firearms against officials, or use weapons or explosives against military positions and important premises as specified by the CRES". Apparently slingshots and fireworks were regarded as "weapons" by the army.

abhisit "confirmed" this statement, thus paving the way for the army to follow its vague ROE.

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva has said armed "terrorists" are mixed in with the protesters, who number in the thousands. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/365969-bangkok-red-shirt-rally-live-monday/

The SOE says that the army can shoot at perpetrators amongst the protesters.

The army claimed that there were perpetrators amongst the protesters in the wat.

The courts rejected that. Therefore, the army shouldn't have been shooting at people in the wat. According to the courts, the army didn't follow the rules.

I wasn't referring to the shooting in the wat as an individual case. Your pedantic efforts at spin are duly noted.

[Tatsujin]

Chalerm himself has admitted that the MiB were undercover Police.

And the latest report from the DSI showed that one of the Journalists was killed by rounds from an AK47, coincidentally the weapon that some of the MiB were using. Curious also how nearly ALL video and picture of those MiB have disappeared from online, yet I remember the events clearly and saw many unknown gunmen carrying "war weapons".

Thai's are very good at rewriting history to suit their purposes.

Isn't Chalerm regarded by you and your ilk as a useless drunk liar? Hardly sterling material for basing your evidence on, surely?

Oh and about this "latest report from the DSI showed that one of the Journalists was killed by rounds from an AK47".

Do you have a link? It's just that I'm sure you got mixed up with the report where the DSI changed the original findings that a M16 round was responsible to one that said an AK47 was, after the Army's Chief of Staff paid them a visit.

My ilk? lol

Chalerm's statement is a matter of record, if he was drunk then he should have kept his mouth shut, but interesting that you don't deny it was said, merely deflect.

As for the changed findings, make your own conclusion. There's enough evidence out there to suggest that the Army did NOT in fact kill all those civilians as claimed.

I find it interesting that the one person involved in ALL of this is the head of the DSI.

[mikemac]

I wasn't referring to the shooting in the wat as an individual case. Your pedantic efforts at spin are duly noted.

Pot - Kettle - Black

Truth be known, the real lowlifes in this whole rotten saga were the ones who used the sanctity of the temple as a vantage point to attack the soldiers, endangering the lives of defenseless people. Wonder if we will ever find out where that plan came from ? Or did the red snipers think it up all by themselves ?

[Imale]

...

If it was indeed the soldiers that did it, I would agree. I'm not convinced though that they were indeed the ones that shot and killed "all" of those that died during the protests.

The case is being brought by relatives of those slain in the temple so naturally that is the subject of this topic.

Tezza suggests no army could go to war in such circumstances but even wars are subjected to ground rules. Break those rules and you can face international courts.

But we are not even talkin of a war situation against external enemies but of soldiers firing at their own countrymen and women taking refuge in a place of religious worship. How low can you go to shoot and kill a nurse when she is trying to save lives?

The responsibility lies with those who gave the orders whether it was to open fire or allow live ammunition to be used.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

The law will need the soldiers that shot these people, they are the murder's

then they can go for those that gave the orders

those of you who are no it all please write the names of the soldiers who shot the people

because

it is my memory no one knows who they where, or even if the where soldiers

Thaskin is taking a new way, as apart from Suthep they have stayed out of the light show in this protest

Thaskin want them back on the front Pages

He knows he is loosing the final outcome with his sister

In a series of inquests, the courts have found that people killed in the temple were shot by military forces, so there is a legal basis for believing that in these cases specifically, military troops were responsible.

The inquests did not identify these troops, however, since the Army has refused to cooperate with every investigation into the killings, whether this be the court inquests, the Khanit Commission, or the People's Information Centre investigation, although individual personnel have given statements. They do this under the claim that Section 17 of the Emergency Decree On Public Administration in Emergency Situation (passed under Thaksin, invoked in this instance by Abhisit) provides them with immunity:

Section 17. A competent official and a person having identical powers and duties as a competent official under this Emergency Decree shall not be subject to civil, criminal or disciplinary liabilities arising from the performance of functions for the termination or prevention of an illegal act if such act was performed in good faith, non-discriminatory, and was not unreasonable in the circumstances or exceed the extent of necessity, but this does not preclude the right of a victim to seek compensation from a government agency under the law on liability for wrongful act of officials.

[Imale]

The ONLY way this becomes more than a complete waste of time, is if someone, somewhere has a written order telling the soldiers to shoot people and can produce it in Court.

Other than that, if the Govt (as has been shown previously) ordered safe zones, no shooting etc then it's the soldiers that should be on trial.

Oh wait, can't do that, they already had a blanket amnesty for that.

Case closed.

Wasn't that amnesty given by the PTP government?

So far as I recall, it was included in the Amensty Bill that Suthep got scrapped. Now he is hoist on his own petard. Oh the irony of it!

Your recall is incorrect. The immunity from any form of prosecution (not amnesty) is provided by Section 17 of the Emergency Decree whenever this is invoked by the government of the day

[mikemac]

I could not help but notice, after surfing through quite a few current topics on TV today, that the trolls really sink their teeth into topics like this one yet are as rare as hen's teeth on topics about Yingluck and the rice scheme etc. Why is that so ?

[bigbamboo]

The ONLY way this becomes more than a complete waste of time, is if someone, somewhere has a written order telling the soldiers to shoot people and can produce it in Court.

Other than that, if the Govt (as has been shown previously) ordered safe zones, no shooting etc then it's the soldiers that should be on trial.

Oh wait, can't do that, they already had a blanket amnesty for that.

Case closed.

Yes there is proof.

Suthep signed the papers that allowed the army to use live ammunition against protesters.

Since the Nuremberg trials established that those giving the orders, and not necessarily with their finger on the trigger, are guilty of crimes against humanity. Since Nuremberg the international courts have brought several cases against those who ordered crimes against humanity.

It is up to the courts to judge but my option is there is prima facia evidence that there is a direct link between giving an order to allow the use of live ammunition and civilians gunned down in the sanctuary of a temple.

The soldiers who opened fire need to be prosecuted as so the officers in charge, all the way up to Abhisit and Suthep with the greatest penalties reserved for those at the top.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Nuremberg was a show. A bad one too.

If this was a real trial, Churchill and others should be there as well. That includes the rocket scientist Wernher from Braun too.

How does it come that using slave workers and suggesting to Hitler that using Penemunde as secret research base, well knowing that every worker will be killed when completed isn't related to a crime ?

Bombing Dresden was also a simple war crime as it was the fire storm on Frankfurt by US bombers or dropping the bombs on two Japan cities.

In WW2, the US army had a research program, finding out how to inflame best German buildings and cities. This knowledge was used than in many bombardments, including Frankfurt.

Not to mention the civilian killings in all the US lead wars, starting at WW2, continuous in Vietnam where complete villages where destroyed and killed and goes straight to Afghanistan where civilians are killed daily.

Strange that only a few cases did fit for the international courts when in fact every US government is guilty in committing war crimes.

So don't come up with Nuremberg and justice since than. There is none.

On the other hand, Abhisit and Suthep orders where more or less justified, even if executed very poorly.

There is enough video proof available that armed protesters and even some kind of under ground army was present.

Videos of black guys run around with rifles and civilians using mortars sure still available on youtube.

At the nearby BTS station, CNN did film there armed civilians right before the temple killings, partly in army clothings or black, but clearly not Thai army.

A German newspaper did bring up an interview and this guys where telling proudly that they have well trained and armed supporters at the rally site.

All evidence that Abhisit and Suthep had to act and the burnings/luting at the end show very well how peaceful this protesters where.

I was very close to the rally site in Bangkok at this time and saw my self armed civilians in army like clothing. In my view the government acted to late, way to late.

I'm not sure the people of Britain and Coventry in particular would have agreed with Dresden being a simple war crime. An eye for an eye maybe.

And the Japanese left the Americans with little choice. It was a them or us situation.

Neither action was pretty but it should also be remembered that it was one nation's people defending itself against another and who started it.

[whybother]

The SOE says that the army can shoot at perpetrators amongst the protesters.

The army claimed that there were perpetrators amongst the protesters in the wat.

The courts rejected that. Therefore, the army shouldn't have been shooting at people in the wat. According to the courts, the army didn't follow the rules.

I wasn't referring to the shooting in the wat as an individual case. Your pedantic efforts at spin are duly noted.

The OP is specifically about "temple deaths". Sorry for being pedantic and staying on topic. I'm not sure how that is spin though.

Even if you were referring to other deaths, the same applies. If the SOE says don't shoot unarmed protesters, and the army shot unarmed protesters, then the army broke the rules.

[Baerboxer]

They obviously did not co-ordinate this one with Yinglucks "can everybody please stop filing law suits against each other - especially me" press conference and PR team. Thailand hub of comedy.

Indeed Jimbo. But you see some relatives of those unfortunates killed this time around have files law suits against YL and some of her gang.

To some in the PTP/UDD/RS camp this means they must do the same to Abhisit and Suthep to keep the "tit for tat" going!

It seems not all in the PTP/UDD/RS camp pay attention or giving any credence to the comments the caretaker PM/DM makes. She will no doubt show what a strong iron willed leader she is in dealing with them

[Tatsujin]

And the latest report from the DSI showed that one of the Journalists was killed by rounds from an AK47, coincidentally the weapon that some of the MiB were using. Curious also how nearly ALL video and picture of those MiB have disappeared from online, yet I remember the events clearly and saw many unknown gunmen carrying "war weapons".

Thai's are very good at rewriting history to suit their purposes.

Once again you fail to comment on events at the temple. The subject of this topic

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Apologies, I thought I had responded about the Temple deaths in this thread, but it was in another.

I'd said something along the lines that the deaths within the Temple grounds were unacceptable and that "whoever" is responsible should be charged with murder in this instance.

I also will say that absolving the Army automatically as has been done is also not acceptable, and I also think that the investigation(s) into 3rd parties over the past few years have been pathetic. There's a whole lot more going on in all of this that the "surface", but the real truth is never now going to see the light of day.

[chrisinth]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

The ONLY way this becomes more than a complete waste of time, is if someone, somewhere has a written order telling the soldiers to shoot people and can produce it in Court.

Other than that, if the Govt (as has been shown previously) ordered safe zones, no shooting etc then it's the soldiers that should be on trial.

Oh wait, can't do that, they already had a blanket amnesty for that.

Case closed.

Yes there is proof.
Suthep signed the papers that allowed the army to use live ammunition against protesters.

Since the Nuremberg trials established that those giving the orders, and not necessarily with their finger on the trigger, are guilty of crimes against humanity. Since Nuremberg the international courts have brought several cases against those who ordered crimes against humanity.

It is up to the courts to judge but my option is there is prima facia evidence that there is a direct link between giving an order to allow the use of live ammunition and civilians gunned down in the sanctuary of a temple.

The soldiers who opened fire need to be prosecuted as so the officers in charge, all the way up to Abhisit and Suthep with the greatest penalties reserved for those at the top.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Were we not in a state of emergency then? What were the rules of engagement issued to the army?

When you have a mob running riot, burning buildings and presenting a real threat to innocent people, signing a paper to allow the army to use live ammunition would be the correct progressive action under those circumstances, IMHO.

If anyone needs to answer to this it would be whoever was on the other end of the sniper's communication line, and the relevant line of communication upward.

Normally, soldiers don't make the decisions, they need to be told what to do.

What I am trying to say is that there is a large trail between someone signing a paper and someone pulling a trigger.

[Tatsujin]

The problem for abhisit and suthep may lie in the 'ambiguity" of the ROE issued by CRES and signed by suthep wrt the use of snipers - Point 2.5 of the document

I wasn't referring to the shooting in the wat as an individual case. Your pedantic efforts at spin are duly noted.

Here's a few pics of your "peaceful protestors" from 2010 if your memory is getting bad, unfortunately the vast majority of the pics have disappeared from online now for some unknown reason:

[Baerboxer]

The ONLY way this becomes more than a complete waste of time, is if someone, somewhere has a written order telling the soldiers to shoot people and can produce it in Court.

Other than that, if the Govt (as has been shown previously) ordered safe zones, no shooting etc then it's the soldiers that should be on trial.

Oh wait, can't do that, they already had a blanket amnesty for that.

Case closed.

Yes there is proof.

Suthep signed the papers that allowed the army to use live ammunition against protesters.

Since the Nuremberg trials established that those giving the orders, and not necessarily with their finger on the trigger, are guilty of crimes against humanity. Since Nuremberg the international courts have brought several cases against those who ordered crimes against humanity.

It is up to the courts to judge but my option is there is prima facia evidence that there is a direct link between giving an order to allow the use of live ammunition and civilians gunned down in the sanctuary of a temple.

The soldiers who opened fire need to be prosecuted as so the officers in charge, all the way up to Abhisit and Suthep with the greatest penalties reserved for those at the top.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Nuremberg was a show. A bad one too.

If this was a real trial, Churchill and others should be there as well. That includes the rocket scientist Wernher from Braun too.

How does it come that using slave workers and suggesting to Hitler that using Penemunde as secret research base, well knowing that every worker will be killed when completed isn't related to a crime ?

Bombing Dresden was also a simple war crime as it was the fire storm on Frankfurt by US bombers or dropping the bombs on two Japan cities.

In WW2, the US army had a research program, finding out how to inflame best German buildings and cities. This knowledge was used than in many bombardments, including Frankfurt.

Not to mention the civilian killings in all the US lead wars, starting at WW2, continuous in Vietnam where complete villages where destroyed and killed and goes straight to Afghanistan where civilians are killed daily.

Strange that only a few cases did fit for the international courts when in fact every US government is guilty in committing war crimes.

So don't come up with Nuremberg and justice since than. There is none.

On the other hand, Abhisit and Suthep orders where more or less justified, even if executed very poorly.

There is enough video proof available that armed protesters and even some kind of under ground army was present.

Videos of black guys run around with rifles and civilians using mortars sure still available on youtube.

At the nearby BTS station, CNN did film there armed civilians right before the temple killings, partly in army clothings or black, but clearly not Thai army.

A German newspaper did bring up an interview and this guys where telling proudly that they have well trained and armed supporters at the rally site.

All evidence that Abhisit and Suthep had to act and the burnings/luting at the end show very well how peaceful this protesters where.

I was very close to the rally site in Bangkok at this time and saw my self armed civilians in army like clothing. In my view the government acted to late, way to late.

This has to be a serious contender for the least intelligent post of the year.

&lt;deleted&gt; - Dresden a war crime, no need to drop atomic bombs. Nuremburg a show trial? Tell that to all those whose families were nearly eradicated by murder and torture by the German and Japanese. The main injustice after WW2 was that most Jap leaders escaped the fate of their German allies due to the US's obsessive but possibly real concern on the threat of communist expansion in Asia,

I'm sure soldiers and fighters on all sides in any conflict don't always follow the rules. Their commanders need to be brought to according to the circumstances,

That's what courts and judicial inquiries are for - to look at the situation, circumstances, actions and consequences.

Riots and armed disturbances get out of hand. Tragic consequences often follow. There is a difference between that and premeditated systematic torture, murder and destruction carried out on an unimaginable scale by the axis powers in WW2.

[mikemac]

This has to be a serious contender for the least intelligent post of the year.

<deleted> - Dresden a war crime, no need to drop atomic bombs. Nuremburg a show trial? Tell that to all those whose families were nearly eradicated by murder and torture by the German and Japanese. The main injustice after WW2 was that most Jap leaders escaped the fate of their German allies due to the US's obsessive but possibly real concern on the threat of communist expansion in Asia,

I'm sure soldiers and fighters on all sides in any conflict don't always follow the rules. Their commanders need to be brought to according to the circumstances,

That's what courts and judicial inquiries are for - to look at the situation, circumstances, actions and consequences.

Riots and armed disturbances get out of hand. Tragic consequences often follow. There is a difference between that and premeditated systematic torture, murder and destruction carried out on an unimaginable scale by the axis powers in WW2.

....................................."This has to be a serious contender for the least intelligent post of the year."......................................

Agreed.

And after reading through some of the amazing comments by fabio and his red fanatical friends I would say it was up against some stiff opposition !

[fab4]

I wasn't referring to the shooting in the wat as an individual case. Your pedantic efforts at spin are duly noted.

Pot - Kettle - Black

Truth be known, the real lowlifes in this whole rotten saga were the ones who used the sanctity of the temple as a vantage point to attack the soldiers, endangering the lives of defenseless people. Wonder if we will ever find out where that plan came from ? Or did the red snipers think it up all by themselves ?

"the real lowlifes in this whole rotten saga were the ones who used the sanctity of the temple as a vantage point to attack the soldiers, endangering the lives of defenseless" people."

Oh you're back, been on holiday? You yet again demonstrate a shocking lack of knowledge, or is it just plain denial? I don't think even the dems are still claiming that people were firing at the troops from the temple. Why is it so hard for people like you to accept that the troops fired on the people in the temple indiscriminately. Of course, that is not normal behaviour for supposedly well trained troops. Of course they could only expect negative repercussions from the act. Of course troops should not lie in court.

It doesn't mean that your version of the event is true.

Read the testimonies from people who were there, not those spouting BS on an internet forum. I've already provided a link.

Edited March 15, 2014 by fab4